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post #121 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Here's great article on iOS and how it's human nature for people to reject the unfamiliar.

http://releasecandidateone.com/253:given_time

I think once iOS ships and people start using it on a regular basis perception and attitudes about it will shift.


I'll submit that this 'complaining' over the look of iOS7 is much to do about nothing.  It reminds me of when Facebook (for example) started migrating users to their now familiar Timeline interface.  Folks were starting protests pages and threatening to quit and so on.  Last I checked, Facebook has more users now then they did a few years ago. 

 

People like to thump their chests about change just because they can, but guess what?  After the new iOS comes out, all new iPhones will be loaded with iOS7 and very quickly millions of older iPhones will be upgraded.  Based on past trends with Apple iOS updates, the older iOS's will soon quickly disappear and be forgotten.

post #122 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

To me what's most important is for Apple to keep developers wanting to develop for their platform. And reading between the lines from some who are under NDA's I get the sense developers are very happy with what they're seeing.

 

That's not accurate.  What is accurate is that developer attitudes are mixed, as are those in the general press.  Some like it, some are indifferent, and some hate it.  One good things is that developers are vocally calling out the things they see as needing improvement, so perhaps that means that IOS 7 will emerge in the end as the highly polished and very useful / engaging product we all want it to be.

post #123 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarfungo View Post


I'll submit that this 'complaining' over the look of iOS7 is much to do about nothing.  It reminds me of when Facebook (for example) started migrating users to their now familiar Timeline interface.  Folks were starting protests pages and threatening to quit and so on.  Last I checked, Facebook has more users now then they did a few years ago. 

 

People like to thump their chests about change just because they can, but guess what?  After the new iOS comes out, all new iPhones will be loaded with iOS7 and very quickly millions of older iPhones will be upgraded.  Based on past trends with Apple iOS updates, the older iOS's will soon quickly disappear and be forgotten.

 

And I'll submit to you that it is a bigger deal than you make it out to be.  What I find particularly funny in these forums are all the commentaries from people who do not have IOS 7 and who haven't used it a bit.

 

The picture is more complex than you think.

post #124 of 139

I think this editorial, like many of DED's pieces, is an unabashedly pro-apple piece.  As a result it lacks objectivity regardless of any indication to the contrary.  In my opinion, DED has shown through the years that Apple could hand him a crap sandwich and he would proclaim it to be a masterpiece of culinary art.  Objective his pieces are not, and this is one of the least objective I have seen in a long time.

 

IOS 7 is a major departure from previous releases.  In my opinion, it has numerous and obvious flaws that need to be fixed.  I am not alone in these views, and in contrast to what DED asserts, the views I have are shared widely in the developer community, to say nothing of the press and of common users.  In it's current form, most polls I have seen run at best neck and neck between those who like the new treatment and those that don't.  In addition, there are substantive and worthwhile criticisms of the usability of the new UI that can't be whitewashed by dismissive rhetoric.

 

My opinion is that if Apple pays attention and fixes these issues, IOS 7 could be an acceptable release, although I don't think I will personally ever like it.  On the other hand, I think if they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the very real usability issues that exist, then IOS 7 will be a problem for them and will eventually erode their market position.

 

FYI, I just want to point out that it serves nobody's interests to just blindly assert 'It is good!' because it has Apple's stamp of approval on it.  If you love Apple products and you are a fan of the company, then you have a vested interest in seeing that they don't screw up, and one way you have of doing so is by being honest in your evaluations and criticisms.  If enough people do that, Apple will correct.  Being a willfully blind Apple sycophant, derisively dismissing any criticism and intentionally white-washing real issues... is a net loss to the entire Apple community in the long run.

post #125 of 139
@tt92618 what polls are you referring to? I bet some of the complainers complained about OS X 10.0, the transition to intel, iOS 1. Just as DED's opinion is "pro-Apple", yours is almost anti change or anti Apple.
post #126 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

I think this editorial, like many of DED's pieces, is an unabashedly pro-apple piece.  As a result it lacks objectivity regardless of any indication to the contrary.  In my opinion, DED has shown through the years that Apple could hand him a crap sandwich and he would proclaim it to be a masterpiece of culinary art.  Objective his pieces are not, and this is one of the least objective I have seen in a long time.

 

IOS 7 is a major departure from previous releases.  In my opinion, it has numerous and obvious flaws that need to be fixed.  I am not alone in these views, and in contrast to what DED asserts, the views I have are shared widely in the developer community, to say nothing of the press and of common users.  In it's current form, most polls I have seen run at best neck and neck between those who like the new treatment and those that don't.  In addition, there are substantive and worthwhile criticisms of the usability of the new UI that can't be whitewashed by dismissive rhetoric.

 

My opinion is that if Apple pays attention and fixes these issues, IOS 7 could be an acceptable release, although I don't think I will personally ever like it.  On the other hand, I think if they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the very real usability issues that exist, then IOS 7 will be a problem for them and will eventually erode their market position.

 

FYI, I just want to point out that it serves nobody's interests to just blindly assert 'It is good!' because it has Apple's stamp of approval on it.  If you love Apple products and you are a fan of the company, then you have a vested interest in seeing that they don't screw up, and one way you have of doing so is by being honest in your evaluations and criticisms.  If enough people do that, Apple will correct.  Being a willfully blind Apple sycophant, derisively dismissing any criticism and intentionally white-washing real issues... is a net loss to the entire Apple community in the long run.

DED does come across at times as a bloviator. Nonetheless, through all of your post, you failed to mention a single specific problem with iOS7-neither from a developer nor from a consumer perspective. Where's your objectivity, i.e., knowledge gleaned from observable and communicable facts?

For your sake, I hope you're right.
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For your sake, I hope you're right.
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post #127 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

@tt92618 what polls are you referring to? I bet some of the complainers complained about OS X 10.0, the transition to intel, iOS 1. Just as DED's opinion is "pro-Apple", yours is almost anti change or anti Apple.

 

It isn't anti-Apple, certainly.  I use Apple products almost exclusively for my personal work and all of my hardware, except that which I need for other platform work, is Apple.

 

I do however develop for multiple platforms and I have experience with all of the major ones.  I am highly critical of each of them.  And when I say that, I mean it from the perspective that I evaluate them by objectively examining their strengths and weaknesses.  

 

My opinion is that overall IOS has by far had more strengths than any of the other platforms.  It's hard to get traction with apps for IOS7 these days, largely because of the platform's success.. but that is neither here nor there.  My point is that you would have to be blind not to recognize the superiority of the Apple platform, both in the market and really in terms of the usefulness and usability of IOS.

 

But the world is not a static place.  Apple's competitors are constantly evolving and they are, regardless of what anyone here might want to believe, constantly working to erode the obvious differentiators between Apple and them.  Windows 8, in the mobile space only, is a big step in that direction.  Not, by the way, because it has a superior user experience, but because it is tailored to a mobile presence and it is bringing with it an evolving ecosystem that is starting to meet Apple's head head.  So, although it isn't a significant near term disruptor, it is a long term threat and that is true even if rampant Apple loyalty would prefer to be blind to it.  Ditto for Android, based if nothing else on the shear volume it brings into play.

 

Against that, I find that IOS 7 erodes the user experience in ways that in my estimation make it less attractive and less usable.  I think that's important, and the fact that I like Apple products and have a soft spot for them isn't going to stop me from saying that I think this is a very huge mistake.  When I see a problem, I am absolutely going to point it out, because if I actually care about the company and the products, that's the only responsible thing to do.

post #128 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

I think this editorial, like many of DED's pieces, is an unabashedly pro-apple piece.  As a result it lacks objectivity regardless of any indication to the contrary.  In my opinion, DED has shown through the years that Apple could hand him a crap sandwich and he would proclaim it to be a masterpiece of culinary art.  Objective his pieces are not, and this is one of the least objective I have seen in a long time.

 

IOS 7 is a major departure from previous releases.  In my opinion, it has numerous and obvious flaws that need to be fixed.  I am not alone in these views, and in contrast to what DED asserts, the views I have are shared widely in the developer community, to say nothing of the press and of common users.  In it's current form, most polls I have seen run at best neck and neck between those who like the new treatment and those that don't.  In addition, there are substantive and worthwhile criticisms of the usability of the new UI that can't be whitewashed by dismissive rhetoric.

 

My opinion is that if Apple pays attention and fixes these issues, IOS 7 could be an acceptable release, although I don't think I will personally ever like it.  On the other hand, I think if they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the very real usability issues that exist, then IOS 7 will be a problem for them and will eventually erode their market position.

 

FYI, I just want to point out that it serves nobody's interests to just blindly assert 'It is good!' because it has Apple's stamp of approval on it.  If you love Apple products and you are a fan of the company, then you have a vested interest in seeing that they don't screw up, and one way you have of doing so is by being honest in your evaluations and criticisms.  If enough people do that, Apple will correct.  Being a willfully blind Apple sycophant, derisively dismissing any criticism and intentionally white-washing real issues... is a net loss to the entire Apple community in the long run.

 

Maybe, when trying to make a negative counterpoint to an article you disagree with, you can follow the article's own use of a) spelling out, logically, what you think the facts are, b) lining up references to the sources you claim support your position and c) balance out your series of "I think" comments with some objectivity.

Please at least comment on 3 things in iOS 7 that you think are "obvious flaws" that you are concerned that Apple can't or won't fix. 

 

Then cite some reputable developers who are making any public comments on the basic problems with iOS 7's new appearance and user experience. So far, I've only seen people quibbling about the look of icons. Well if that's an issue, it hasn't been an issue that held back Android, or Windows for that matter. 

 

You are quick to throw around charges that other people are "blind," but what historical reputation for insight do you have? I don't even see a glimmer. Offer us something other than an emotional rant devoid of any substance apart from name calling and negativity.

 

If your viewpoint is so clear and assured, surely you can share something more than several paragraphs that really don't say anything new, interesting or insightful at all. 

post #129 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post

DED does come across at times as a bloviator. Nonetheless, through all of your post, you failed to mention a single specific problem with iOS7-neither from a developer nor from a consumer perspective. Where's your objectivity, i.e., knowledge gleaned from observable and communicable facts?

 

I'm sorry - I've mentioned them many times in other posts and I just did not think it was noteworthy to rehash them again and again here.  It's safe to say that I am one of the people DED dismissed as seemingly thinking that their years of experience entitled them to have an opinion.

 

If you want to know what I think about where the problems are, I'm happy to oblige.

post #130 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

Maybe, when trying to make a negative counterpoint to an article you disagree with, you can follow the article's own use of a) spelling out, logically, what you think the facts are, b) lining up references to the sources you claim support your position and c) balance out your series of "I think" comments with some objectivity.

Please at least comment on 3 things in iOS 7 that you think are "obvious flaws" that you are concerned that Apple can't or won't fix. 

 

Then cite some reputable developers who are making any public comments on the basic problems with iOS 7's new appearance and user experience. So far, I've only seen people quibbling about the look of icons. Well if that's an issue, it hasn't been an issue that held back Android, or Windows for that matter. 

 

You are quick to throw around charges that other people are "blind," but what historical reputation for insight do you have? I don't even see a glimmer. Offer us something other than an emotional rant devoid of any substance apart from name calling and negativity.

 

If your viewpoint is so clear and assured, surely you can share something more than several paragraphs that really don't say anything new, interesting or insightful at all. 

 

I've mentioned my views frequently.  I'll reproduce one below for you.

 

As far as developer feedback, I can't direct you to public commentary because most of it is going on inside the developer forums at Apple and it is private and bound by NDA.  I can only assure you that the commentary is not as favorable as you want to believe.  There is a piece in the WSJ that gives some taste of that, though:

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/06/11/developers-and-reviewers-mixed-on-ios-7-design/

 

Here's some of my analysis with respect to IOS7 and some of the problems it has.

 

I think the biggest usability miss with IOS7 surrounds typography and iconography, and the elimination of neutrality layers in the OS.  Apple chose a very insubstantial font and they simultaneously eliminated the shadows for fonts and iconography that allowed them to have some separation between figure and ground.  They did that to icons, too, but to a lesser degree.  The result is that in many contexts text simply bleeds into the background such that it is harder to read than in previous versions.  This is evident even in the marketing piece that Apple has put out.  I actually ran through every wallpaper that comes with IOS using IOS 7 and I compared the legibility of text against those wallpapers with devices running IOS6, and in almost every case, the IOS6 versions are clearer and easier to read.

 

The folder treatment in IOS7 again suffers from the same issue; it is offers much less figure / ground differentiation and that makes icons and text harder to disembed.

 

Finally, there are many places in the OS where the color of typography is so close to the background color that the text becomes extremely difficult to read.  

 

For those of you who have IOS 7, I challenge you to run through the wallpapers and note the numerous points where text simply disappears into the background.  If you have multiple devices, compare them side by side.  It is a very telling comparison.

 

There are other issues but I don't want to violate my NDA by pointing out things which exist in materials Apple has not already publicly released.


Edited by tt92618 - 6/17/13 at 11:30am
post #131 of 139
Best written article on ios 7 I have seen yet.
Best written article on appleinsider.com I have seen yet.
Loved it! Thank you!
More please!
post #132 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

I've mentioned my views frequently.  I'll reproduce one below for you.

 

As far as developer feedback, I can't direct you to public commentary because most of it is going on inside the developer forums at Apple and it is private and bound by NDA.  I can only assure you that the commentary is not as favorable as you want to believe.  There is a piece in the WSJ that gives some taste of that, though:

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/06/11/developers-and-reviewers-mixed-on-ios-7-design/

 

Here's some of my analysis with respect to IOS7 and some of the problems it has.

 

I think the biggest usability miss with IOS7 surrounds typography and iconography, and the elimination of neutrality layers in the OS.  Apple chose a very insubstantial font and they simultaneously eliminated the shadows for fonts and iconography that allowed them to have some separation between figure and ground.  They did that to icons, too, but to a lesser degree.  The result is that in many contexts text simply bleeds into the background such that it is harder to read than in previous versions.  This is evident even in the marketing piece that Apple has put out.  I actually ran through every wallpaper that comes with IOS using IOS 7 and I compared the legibility of text against those wallpapers with devices running IOS6, and in almost every case, the IOS6 versions are clearer and easier to read.

 

The folder treatment in IOS7 again suffers from the same issue; it is offers much less figure / ground differentiation and that makes icons and text harder to disembed.

 

Finally, there are many places in the OS where the color of typography is so close to the background color that the text becomes extremely difficult to read.

 

There are other issues but I don't want to violate my NDA by pointing out things which exist in materials Apple has not already publicly released.

Surprising that a developer with significant iOS critiques made no mention of system-level, frameworks, iCloud synch or API difficulties in your list of iOS problems. Also surprising that these superficial and easily-corerectable (even by the user in Settings) "problems" merit your criticisms. In fact, your thread seems to prove the very point DED was making about somewhat baseless gripes by real or so-called developers.

For your sake, I hope you're right.
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For your sake, I hope you're right.
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post #133 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

 

I've mentioned my views frequently.  I'll reproduce one below for you.

 

As far as developer feedback, I can't direct you to public commentary because most of it is going on inside the developer forums at Apple and it is private and bound by NDA.  I can only assure you that the commentary is not as favorable as you want to believe.  There is a piece in the WSJ that gives some taste of that, though:

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/06/11/developers-and-reviewers-mixed-on-ios-7-design/

 

Here's some of my analysis with respect to IOS7 and some of the problems it has.

 

I think the biggest usability miss with IOS7 surrounds typography and iconography, and the elimination of neutrality layers in the OS.  Apple chose a very insubstantial font and they simultaneously eliminated the shadows for fonts and iconography that allowed them to have some separation between figure and ground.  They did that to icons, too, but to a lesser degree.  The result is that in many contexts text simply bleeds into the background such that it is harder to read than in previous versions.  This is evident even in the marketing piece that Apple has put out.  I actually ran through every wallpaper that comes with IOS using IOS 7 and I compared the legibility of text against those wallpapers with devices running IOS6, and in almost every case, the IOS6 versions are clearer and easier to read.

 

The folder treatment in IOS7 again suffers from the same issue; it is offers much less figure / ground differentiation and that makes icons and text harder to disembed.

 

Finally, there are many places in the OS where the color of typography is so close to the background color that the text becomes extremely difficult to read.  

 

For those of you who have IOS 7, I challenge you to run through the wallpapers and note the numerous points where text simply disappears into the background.  If you have multiple devices, compare them side by side.  It is a very telling comparison.

 

There are other issues but I don't want to violate my NDA by pointing out things which exist in materials Apple has not already publicly released.

BTW, I'm gonna go out on a limb here:  To say that your refusal to name even one developer problem "in the forums" would be a violation of Apple's developer NDA is not at all credible.

.

For your sake, I hope you're right.
Reply
For your sake, I hope you're right.
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post #134 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post

Surprising that a developer with significant iOS critiques made no mention of system-level, frameworks, iCloud synch or API difficulties in your list of iOS problems. Also surprising that these superficial and easily-corerectable (even by the user in Settings) "problems" merit your criticisms. In fact, your thread seems to prove the very point DED was making about somewhat baseless gripes by real or so-called developers.

That's nonsense.  If you think that the usability and user experience of the OS is an unimportant factor in the success of the operating system as a whole, you are terrifically misguided to say the least.

 

Why would anything technical I may have to say about a framework or API have any substantial bearing on a discussion about the UI changes in the OS anyway?  For the record, I love Apple's developer tooling and API stack, and think it is far better than most.  But that just has no direct bearing on the usability of the UI itself, so discussing such things here would be pointless.

 

I never said that these were not correctible, I said that if uncorrected these will be big issues with consumers.

post #135 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post

BTW, I'm gonna go out on a limb here:  To say that your refusal to name even one developer problem "in the forums" would be a violation of Apple's developer NDA is not at all credible.

.

 

That's BS.  I didn't say I couldn't mention developer complaints, I said I couldn't give you actual statements.  The complaints I make about fonts, iconography, and legibility are widely echoed both within the developer community and elsewhere.  

 

What you want me to do is prove to you that I'm not alone in the criticisms.  I'm not willing to wade into the developer fora and post comments made there for you, because that would absolutely violate my NDA.  So no, you won't get that.

post #136 of 139
^^
Everything I'm reading about seems to be problems that are very fixable and if Apple is getting this feedback from devs I have a hard time believing they're going to ignore it (not saying anyone here is suggesting that).

I like what Jim Dalrymple wrote on his blog: that people need to take a deep breath and relax. I'll admit I need to do the same. 1smile.gif

http://www.loopinsight.com/2013/06/17/dont-worry-about-ios-7/
Edited by Rogifan - 6/17/13 at 12:03pm
post #137 of 139
You do realize it's in beta.
post #138 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

[...] First thing I thought of when I saw it is Apple wants people to have fun with their devices.

 

First thing I thought of when I saw it was Justin Bieber clutching a "Hello Kitty" toy.  Which isn't necessarily contrary to what you thought, but it does sorta raise questions about which people Apple wants to have fun? Are tweens really Apple's target market?

 

It won't influence my buying decisions because the surface appearance is just superficial, but it's my opinion that we've found Jony's weak suit. Horrid, utterly hideous. I'm no expert, but it strikes me as... well, "amateurish." It's the UI equivalent of dressing blindfolded in a clown's closet. Flamboyant, childish, incongruous and impossible to take seriously.

post #139 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post


Most so called comparisons are by people who are able to build their own PC from scratch & can achieve a significant saving this way.

Naturally these people ignore the fact that the average person cannot/has no wish to go this route & also refuse to recognise the quality of Apples design and casing materials.

 

Indeed. you cant win over someone who will build its PC's in a wooden box because he absolutly dont care about form factor. weight, looks or fan noise. All they want is specs and when you do that yes you can beat Apple prices.

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