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post #41 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

While the Nexus 7 examples sound far worse, my iPad 3 is notably lagging more than when I bought it. My past iPhones have got less responsive with time too.

Apple aren't immune to degrading hardware, or hardware that doesn't meet the increasing demands of the software that runs on it.

Except a reset will fix that on an iPad or iPhone but not on a Nexus 7.
post #42 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I just don't know if Dilger's articles can even be believed due his track record of exceedingly partisan Apple fanboyism.

Any other sources that corroborate these claims?

Read the friggin article you are commenting on...he quotes directly from Android sites...sheesh...
post #43 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

This is a common misconception of "lag". There is a perceived lag in everything you own once you become familiar with it. When something is new there's a natural tendency to be much more patient as you learn the ins and outs. Once you master it, you're more likely to "run" into something that's not getting out of the way faster than you expect or want it to.

I have an original iPad and it still runs fairly well, but it sure feels slow. Slower than I remember, but the fact is, I can't remember how slow it ran when I originally got it and there's nothing to compare it with. Instead what happened is I started comparing it to how fast stuff worked on my newer iPhones. And it really does seem like the iPad has gotten slower and slower with each new iPhone I've purchased.

A more extreme example... When I got my Mac SE, it was the greatest computer I ever owned, not once did I ever notice any kind of lag. I boot that sucker up today and I can't believe I was able to get anything done on it!? It is ridiculously slow compared to today's computers, but it still runs exactly as it did then.

OK...whatever..this is real obvious lag.
post #44 of 184
Might as well say its a good disposable $200 tablet.
post #45 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

I can't find the link to the 'article' citing all of these problems within this post. Can someone help me, please?

Type "Androidandme" the site cited in the article into Google and you get this;

http://androidandme.com/2013/06/opinions/one-year-later-the-nexus-7-has-gone-from-the-best-to-worst-tablet-ive-ever-owned/
post #46 of 184
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Who fixes Nexus 7 other than a fly-by-night repair shop?

Just take it on down to the Google Store in your local mall. The Google Gurus will take care of you.

post #47 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


SpamSandwich... Apple hate??!!?

Hahahahahahaahahaha...  that's really funny.

I guess you haven't been here that long.

Either I thought it was someone else or I meant DED hate.
post #48 of 184
My iPad 2 still works perfectly 1smile.gif)
post #49 of 184
Hi, 
I'm a software architect and also used to develop android apps in the past 2 years.
 
I'd like to point out a few things regarding these "mysterious" failures.
 
First of all, the reports are valid and affect a lot of Nexus 7 tablets and also a percentage of Galaxy Nexus devices built around 8/2012 to 11/2012.
However, this is usually not due to cheap or defective flash memory (from Samsung) but instead a bug in Samsungs flash controller firmware.
 
There are 2 known bugs - one actually could brick devices by overwriting protected blocks but allegedly has been addressed by Samsung - the other is frequently called "trim bug".
It begins to emerge if you fill your device up to a certain amount of free memory (roughly less than 3GB free). When the flash is low on blocks marked as "free", it starts looking for sections marked as "deleted".
The mentioned bug in their firmware causes that specific subroutine to run unusually slow and can lock up the whole device for several seconds.
 
Google rolled out an update for the Nexus 7 with Android 4.1.2 which doesn't fix the bug but avoids triggering it by actually removing data instead of marking it as "deleted" - so the controller is never running out of free blocks.
Unfortunately this doesn't help people already affected by the lags as afaik there's never been a "zeroing" of deleted blocks in the installation routine of the update.
 
Google also still hasn't included this fix in any of their Galaxy Nexus updates, which is quite questionable regarding numerous complaints in the google product forums.
 
I assume many devices out there and probably even Apple devices have this disfunctional controller if they are using Samsung flash built between 8/12 and 11/12.
However, this might never emerge as it's a combination of kernel fs module + flash controller firmware behaviour.
 
 
In case you have a Nexus 7 or Galaxy Nexus affected by serious performance degradation, I'd suggest the following:
 
 
1.) Verify the issue
Download AndroBench and run it, if your "Random Write Speed" is below 0,20mb/s, you're probably affected.
 
 
2a.) Resolve the issue on a Nexus 7
Make sure you are on Android 4.2.2.
Wiping does not help, instead fill your device completly with data and afterwards remove it again to "free" the flash blocks.
After a reboot the performance (AndroBench) should show better "Random Write Speeds".
 
2b.) Resolve the issue on a Galaxy Nexus
No easy solution known, but this is known to work well (I have 2 GNex, one affected and this suggestion did the trick):
 
 
If this didn't help, please check if userdata is mounted with the "discard" option.
To do so, install and start "Terminal Emulator", type "mount" and press enter.
If the line with /data doesn't have "discard" appended in the options, Google probably screwed up their fix by missing some device serials affected.
In that case, this solution also works on Nexus 7: https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=41061#c40
 
 
post #50 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I also owned a Samsung Galaxy s3. It seems like every Android device deteriorates in performance after a while,

I owned and used an S3 for months. Just a terrible, terrible experience. Honestly, my original iPhone (bought in 2007) was performing better than the S3. I really could not fathom how people were even comparing Android to iOS (about the only thing that was good on it was being able to make Whatsapp my default messaging service and quick controls to turn on/off some settings).

However, since the S3 was a hand down from my dad (he used it a few months and gave it to me after I lost my 4S) it had just degraded horribly like you mention.

I do think it is an outrage that Tech folks keep trumpeting an Android device as an equal of iPhone without ever mentioning the terrible state of software upgrades, never mins these apparent widespread hardware issues (which are not as well known).

Glad I got an iPhone 4 to replace the S3 on the cheap.
post #51 of 184

Scientists should conduct a study of the minds of cheapskates and figure out what leads these people to constantly make bad decisions and poor choices. Many serial killers have abnormal brains. What makes a Fandroid's brain tick, and are there any abnormalities present there also?

 

These cheapskates think that they're saving a buck, but their scrooge like behavior actually ends up costing them a whole lot more in the long run.

 

If I were a financially challenged individual, the last thing that I would buy is any kind of Android tablet. I'd rather wait a bit, save up some money, and get an awesome iPad, which I know will last me many years and will function great the whole time.

 

I also don't think that any Android tablet purchaser has a right to complain really, because you basically got what you paid for. 

post #52 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Scientists should conduct a study of the minds of cheapskates and figure out what leads these people to constantly make bad decisions and poor choices. Many serial killers have abnormal brains. What makes a Fandroid's brain tick, and are there any abnormalities present there also?

 

These cheapskates think that they're saving a buck, but their scrooge like behavior actually ends up costing them a whole lot more in the long run.

 

If I were a financially challenged individual, the last thing that I would buy is any kind of Android tablet. I'd rather wait a bit, save up some money, and get an awesome iPad, which I know will last me many years and will function great the whole time.

 

I also don't think that any Android tablet purchaser has a right to complain really, because you basically got what you paid for. 


Wallmart has made billions from cheapskates.

Hmmmmmm...
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Hmmmmmm...
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post #53 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

This is the first I've heard of any type of widespread early failure for the Nexus 7.  Interesting that it's coming from an Apple site.  I've had a nexus 7 since very shortly after the launch and have never had any problem with it. 

 

It's not "coming from an Apple site." Had you made it to the second paragraph, you'd see it was an Android fan writing about the issue on an Android fan site, and there are lots of Android users commenting in commiseration.

post #54 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


Wallmart has made billions from cheapskates.

I have no problems with Walmart. Not everything that they sell is junk.

 

I recently bought a $100 iTunes gift card from Walmart (online, there are no Walmarts in my neck of the woods), and only paid $80 for it.

post #55 of 184
No doubt some percentage of users have problems with their Nexus 7. I doubt its made up. But just as some here are quick to point out that a few thousand complaints about WiFi on an Apple device hardly makes the problem widespread, a hundred reports of Nexus 7 problems doesn't mean most.

Mine gets daily use as a rule and does just fine for its intended purpose. News, magazines, e-mail, and things like dictating this post
melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #56 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by ealvarez View Post

My iPad 2 still works perfectly 1smile.gif)


My iPad 1 still works perfectly. Daily use. Old iOS, but perfect for what I need (or, should say, my Wife's needs).

Hmmmmmm...
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Hmmmmmm...
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post #57 of 184

 

"High quality flash memory can provide a significantly longer lifespan than cheaper versions, but it also costs more."

post #58 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

No doubt some percentage of users have problems with their Nexus 7. I doubt its made up. But just as some here are quick to point out that a few thousand complaints about WiFi on an Apple device hardly makes the problem widespread, a hundred reports of Nexus 7 problems doesn't mean most.

Mine gets daily use as a rule and does just fine for its intended purpose. News, magazines, e-mail, and things like dictating this post

Gatorguy jumps in to defend Google!



I don't recall too many of these posts for Apple!
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post #59 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by daywalker View Post

Hi, 
I'm a software architect and also used to develop android apps in the past 2 years.
 
I'd like to point out a few things regarding these "mysterious" failures.
 
First of all, the reports are valid and affect a lot of Nexus 7 tablets and also a percentage of Galaxy Nexus devices built around 8/2012 to 11/2012.
However, this is usually not due to cheap or defective flash memory (from Samsung) but instead a bug in Samsungs flash controller firmware.
 
There are 2 known bugs - one actually could brick devices by overwriting protected blocks but allegedly has been addressed by Samsung - the other is frequently called "trim bug".
It begins to emerge if you fill your device up to a certain amount of free memory (roughly less than 3GB free). When the flash is low on blocks marked as "free", it starts looking for sections marked as "deleted".
The mentioned bug in their firmware causes that specific subroutine to run unusually slow and can lock up the whole device for several seconds.
 
Google rolled out an update for the Nexus 7 with Android 4.1.2 which doesn't fix the bug but avoids triggering it by actually removing data instead of marking it as "deleted" - so the controller is never running out of free blocks.
Unfortunately this doesn't help people already affected by the lags as afaik there's never been a "zeroing" of deleted blocks in the installation routine of the update.
 
Google also still hasn't included this fix in any of their Galaxy Nexus updates, which is quite questionable regarding numerous complaints in the google product forums.
 
I assume many devices out there and probably even Apple devices have this disfunctional controller if they are using Samsung flash built between 8/12 and 11/12.
However, this might never emerge as it's a combination of kernel fs module + flash controller firmware behaviour.
 
 
In case you have a Nexus 7 or Galaxy Nexus affected by serious performance degradation, I'd suggest the following:
 
 
1.) Buy an iPad

 

This is an extremely helpful post for those affected by this issue.

 

However, I did manage to streamline the resolution process a bit.

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post #60 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

While the Nexus 7 examples sound far worse, my iPad 3 is notably lagging more than when I bought it. My past iPhones have got less responsive with time too.

Apple aren't immune to degrading hardware, or hardware that doesn't meet the increasing demands of the software that runs on it.

 

Your mileage may vary. I've got an iPad 3 and there's no lag on it at all. No problem with my older iPhones either unless I'm comparing them to my newer ones.

post #61 of 184

Very misleading thread title, and from that and the details in the article, it's easy to tell that the author is technically ignorant about Flash.

 

It has nothing to do with "cheap memory".  Heck, Apple uses the least expensive type for their iOS devices as well.

 

Daywalker gave the best comment:  apparently there was a bug in some software versions where the Flash Trim command was not given when files were deleted.  Without that command, the Flash controller would not know which memory blocks it could do reclamation on ahead of time.

 

What would be nice, though, is if Google came out with either a fixit program or offered a replacement tablet.

post #62 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

I typically have to wipe my iPhones and iPads once or twice a year to address issues (performance, stability, etc.)

 

Actually, you probably don't. You might try doing a 'hard reset' instead.

 

With the iPad/iPhone powered on, press and hold the top power button AND the home button simultaneously. After a second or two, the "slide to power off" message will appear. Ignore it and continue holding both buttons until you see the Apple logo. You can then release the buttons and let it cycle. This triggers a hard reset. It sometimes takes a LOT longer to complete than the usual power cycle (up to a couple of minutes). This usually clears any problems related to 'stuck' memory, etc.

 

I haven't had to wipe my iPhone or iPad ever. But I do this 3 or 4 times a year. Whenever things get a little wonky, that usually sets it to rights. 

 

Also, sometimes apps don't update gracefully and you end up having to first delete and then completely reinstall them. I've found that doing a hard reset after encountering one of those keeps things running smoothly.

 

I have to say that other than the occasional reset, these devices have been more dependable than any computing device I've ever used. 

post #63 of 184
I own several google devices, and I must say- they are really deteriorating and losing their edge. I've been very unhappy with them and if they don't do something about it soon- I'm considering switching to Apple.

There- now everyone copy and paste that onto the android forums so they can get the exact same ridiculous trolling as we have to get anytime anything negative is said about Apple.
And just to reiterate- android blows.

And as a small side note it is a breath of fresh air not to have to see the partial quote breakdowns and snippy comments of he who shall not be named.

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iPad Air 2, iPad Mini 2, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6, iPod Touch 5
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2014 27" Retina iMac i5, 2012 27" iMac i7, 2011 Mac Mini i5
iPad Air 2, iPad Mini 2, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6, iPod Touch 5
Time Capsule 5, (3) AirPort Express 2, (2) Apple TV 3

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post #64 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Scientists should conduct a study of the minds of cheapskates and figure out what leads these people to constantly make bad decisions and poor choices. Many serial killers have abnormal brains. What makes a Fandroid's brain tick, and are there any abnormalities present there also?

 

These cheapskates think that they're saving a buck, but their scrooge like behavior actually ends up costing them a whole lot more in the long run.

 

If I were a financially challenged individual, the last thing that I would buy is any kind of Android tablet. I'd rather wait a bit, save up some money, and get an awesome iPad, which I know will last me many years and will function great the whole time.

 

I also don't think that any Android tablet purchaser has a right to complain really, because you basically got what you paid for. 

Well, hindsight is 20/20. When everyone was crowing about the Nexus7 being both cheap and good, you didn't hear any doomsaying about how it would start to fall apart in a year's time.

 

But yeah, from my experience, in a hypercompetitive industry like the PC sector, it really is almost always a case of "You get what you pay for". 

post #65 of 184

This is why Apple doesn't make a $199 tablet.

post #66 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by daywalker View Post

Hi, 
I'm a software architect and also used to develop android apps in the past 2 years.
 
I'd like to point out a few things regarding these "mysterious" failures.
 
First of all, the reports are valid and affect a lot of Nexus 7 tablets and also a percentage of Galaxy Nexus devices built around 8/2012 to 11/2012.
However, this is usually not due to cheap or defective flash memory (from Samsung) but instead a bug in Samsungs flash controller firmware.
 
There are 2 known bugs - one actually could brick devices by overwriting protected blocks but allegedly has been addressed by Samsung - the other is frequently called "trim bug".
It begins to emerge if you fill your device up to a certain amount of free memory (roughly less than 3GB free). When the flash is low on blocks marked as "free", it starts looking for sections marked as "deleted".
The mentioned bug in their firmware causes that specific subroutine to run unusually slow and can lock up the whole device for several seconds.
 
Google rolled out an update for the Nexus 7 with Android 4.1.2 which doesn't fix the bug but avoids triggering it by actually removing data instead of marking it as "deleted" - so the controller is never running out of free blocks.
Unfortunately this doesn't help people already affected by the lags as afaik there's never been a "zeroing" of deleted blocks in the installation routine of the update.
 
Google also still hasn't included this fix in any of their Galaxy Nexus updates, which is quite questionable regarding numerous complaints in the google product forums.
 
I assume many devices out there and probably even Apple devices have this disfunctional controller if they are using Samsung flash built between 8/12 and 11/12.
However, this might never emerge as it's a combination of kernel fs module + flash controller firmware behaviour.
 
 
In case you have a Nexus 7 or Galaxy Nexus affected by serious performance degradation, I'd suggest the following:
 
 
1.) Verify the issue
Download AndroBench and run it, if your "Random Write Speed" is below 0,20mb/s, you're probably affected.
 
 
2a.) Resolve the issue on a Nexus 7
Make sure you are on Android 4.2.2.
Wiping does not help, instead fill your device completly with data and afterwards remove it again to "free" the flash blocks.
After a reboot the performance (AndroBench) should show better "Random Write Speeds".
 
2b.) Resolve the issue on a Galaxy Nexus
No easy solution known, but this is known to work well (I have 2 GNex, one affected and this suggestion did the trick):
 
 
If this didn't help, please check if userdata is mounted with the "discard" option.
To do so, install and start "Terminal Emulator", type "mount" and press enter.
If the line with /data doesn't have "discard" appended in the options, Google probably screwed up their fix by missing some device serials affected.
In that case, this solution also works on Nexus 7: https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=41061#c40
 
 

thanks, Newguy. sounds like you know what you are talking about.

 

but the hard truth remains: this much-hyped Android "reference" tablet has turned out to be a total piece of sh*t. due to those fundamental engineering flaws in this one absolutely crucial aspect - performance!  how many consumers will be able to navigate this complex "fix"? damn few.

 

so where is the web pundit weeping and wailing about it? were it Apple, a hundred websites would be virtually foaming at the mouth today.

post #67 of 184
Funny, I bought a Nexus 7 the first week they came out and had nothing but lightning quick performance from it until today. Tonight the response was abysmal. Then I realized it was off. After turning it on it was again amazingly fast.

As quoted from Jobs above, "The proof will be in the pricing of our competitors' products, which will offer less". He was right. I get far less fighting between the kids since I bought three of these for the price of one iPad.

Now to go down to my shop where there is no WiFi and plug up my thumb drive full of music and service manuals for the motorcycles. (Yes, a thumb drive plugged into a tablet. It is possible and practical...)
Edited by Informed - 6/18/13 at 8:56pm
post #68 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

What would be nice, though, is if Google came out with either a fixit program or offered a replacement tablet.

 

lol.gif

 

Buy another unit!

 

It'll increases their units shipped figures.

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post #69 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed View Post

Funny, I bought a Nexus 7 the first week they came out and had nothing but lightning quick performance from it until today. Tonight the response was abysmal. Then I realized it was off. After turning it on it was again amazingly fast.

As quoted from Jobs above, "The proof will be in the pricing of our competitors' products, which will offer less for more.". He was right. I get far less fighting between the kids since I bought three of these for the price of one iPad.

Now to go down to my shop where there is no WiFi and plug up my thumb drive full of music and service manuals for the motorcycles. (Yes, a thumb drive plugged into a tablet. It is possible and practical...)

how much you get paid for this post, Mr. Astroturf?

post #70 of 184

Loved this article. Basically a well deserved pat on the back for Apple, and clearly pointing out once again that Apple produces quality, not gimmickry. Also implicit in the comparison is the lack of integrity of google and asus pushing out a cheaply made product, knowingly putting in inferior software and hardware. Also good to know that Apple continues to be forward thinking in their purchase of Anobit over a year ago, partly in order to tackle the same issues that are facing the nexus.

 

Addendum: The trolls' attempts to portray an equivalence in the reliability of the iPad vs the nexus are pretty funny.

   

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post #71 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by abazigal View Post

Well, hindsight is 20/20. When everyone was crowing about the Nexus7 being both cheap and good, you didn't hear any doomsaying about how it would start to fall apart in a year's time.

 

But yeah, from my experience, in a hypercompetitive industry like the PC sector, it really is almost always a case of "You get what you pay for". 

 

My future vision must be close to 20/20, because I've been saying nothing but bad things about Android tablets since day one. 

post #72 of 184
I totally knew that was going to happen XD its the same as buying a laptop XD

Good internals and crapy enclosure that doesn't last for more than a year, thats the only reason i am into apple.... well theres lets more 1smile.gif but thats the main one 1smile.gif
post #73 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

No doubt some percentage of users have problems with their Nexus 7. I doubt its made up. But just as some here are quick to point out that a few thousand complaints about WiFi on an Apple device hardly makes the problem widespread, a hundred reports of Nexus 7 problems doesn't mean most.

Mine gets daily use as a rule and does just fine for its intended purpose. News, magazines, e-mail, and things like dictating this post

I think this one of the poorest attempts at deflection I've ever read on this forum.

1oyvey.gif

Usually you structure your posts so that you try to come across as unbiased. You didn't even make the effort here.
post #74 of 184
Perhaps the good folk who run AppleInsider should consider opening GoogleInsider for stuff that is nothing to do with Apple.
post #75 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smith2 View Post


Yes it did and if he had read the article he is commenting on he would know smog of the quotes are from Android sites. I know a die hard Android user who has always praised his Nexus 7 to the skies and when I sent him this article he said it is happening to him too.

In addition to the trim bug mentioned in the article in my experience with Android it has a lot to do with how much stuff is installed on the device. Android phones and tablets often have difficulty when you fill up the capacity near to the maximum with a lot of apps.

 

Google does have it easy though. Android 4.2 JB was heavily infested with bugs and gave me all sorts of headaches when I moved up from 4.1 and I wasn't the only one. However nobody complained in the tech media and blogs about it even though the bugginess of 4.2 gave me so much more troubles than the supposed failure of Apple Maps ever did. 

post #76 of 184
@trumptman
if your nexus 7 has been rooted (which is very easy to do since its a nexus)
you can do a FULL, and i mean FULL backup of the tablet. Apps, data, sign-ins, game data, calendar - everything. Its like a complete snapshot in time. Its called a nandroid backup, if you're interested.

Regarding lag. Yes i have experienced this. This was mainly due to android 4.2.1 not being optimised well for the nexus 7. Android 4.2.2 runs much better. However, when storage space is low - for the 16gb model only - the flash memory is MUCH slower. There is a fix though, that trims the flash storage (similar to ssd's). Here's a link to the app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.grilledmonkey.lagfix&hl=en

Regards, jeff
post #77 of 184

I've said countless times that you get what you pay for.  How many times have we've been lectured by Fandroid whiners with the tired line "My $199 tablet is superior in every way to an iPad at 1/2 the cost!"

Well? Where are they?  As usual when they get their A$$ handed to them on a platter, they are nowhere to be found.

Android tablets are landfill material and a waste of resources.  You buy cheap, don't complain when they barely last long enough for the next model.

Fandroids are the ones being pwned.  They are just too ignorant to admit it.

post #78 of 184
Mine is just under a year old and just won't boot. No matter how long I leave it plugged in to the charger it just appears dead. So I'll be making a warranty claim.

All my iPads including some 3 years old still work perfectly. The only other tablet that has stopped working was a Kindle Fire HD which Amazon replaced for me.
post #79 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Plenty more. Just search for 'nexus 7 unresponsive'.

That's a little unfair though as you can search "iPhone unresponsive" or iPad, iPod, etc and get similar results with forums and help sites for issues.

Having said that, Apple products are far better than Android ones and Apple has great customer service so getting things fixed on a buggy or laggy iPod is much easier than on a nexus 7. And Apple products are made to last longer. We just upgrade because we want to! (Or they are no longer supported/upgrade able to the new iOS)
post #80 of 184

Nexus 7 stands here in front of my keyboard. Using it, because I am creating iPad version of one app which the company had first rolled out on Andriod. Notable points:

 

- screen is going to sleep coincidentally, no rule of whatsoever, perhaps it is a software bug or setting, but I don't care really, it does work somehow on Galaxy Tab 2

- speed vary greatly, response to touch as well

- wifi can stop sporadically from few seconds to minute, there is not proxy or firewall or any other software installed

- camera is unbelievable piece of crap, forget ever to scan any king of barcode or something similar

- batteries drain out quite fast compared to iPad

- the only thing that feels good is actually the casing, it is solid 

 

In any case, I wouldn't use this by myself being payed to do so, therefore I find people buying this a different species...

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