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Apple TV update adds HBO Go, WatchESPN & more channels - Page 2

post #41 of 148
Add me to those wanting Amazon Prime Video. That said, when I want to watch it on my tv I just use the it from my Sony Blu-ray player. I live out in the boonies and my wideband internet can be iffy at times. Amazon Prime's adaptive resolution keeps the video streaming when other services become unacceptable.
post #42 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chick View Post

Add me to those wanting Amazon Prime Video. That said, when I want to watch it on my tv I just use the it from my Sony Blu-ray player. I live out in the boonies and my wideband internet can be iffy at times. Amazon Prime's adaptive resolution keeps the video streaming when other services become unacceptable.

 

I have it on my Sony Blu-ray player downstairs in the living room, but in our bedroom (the TV is mounted on the wall) it's easy to tuck an Apple TV or Roku right on top of the wall mount behind the TV out of sight.

post #43 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I don't want them to just keep adding channels all over the place. I want a channel store and the ability to add or subtract channels as I desire from that store.

 

Eggzactly. The ATV is beginning to remind me of my first Sony Blu-Ray player a few years ago. It was absolutely polluted with junk icons (kinda like a new Windows PC) - there was (is?) a dedicated icon just for a Michael Jackson video!

post #44 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisdf View Post

They need to add NFL to their sports lineup.

Won't happen.  Dish Network owns the rights exclusively to the NFL.  So even if for some reason Apple actually put it on the Apple TV- it would only be for Dish Network subscribers- much like HBO is for subscribers.

 

The only stations I would want are FSSW for the Rangers (MLB) and Stars (NHL) and TNT For Basketball.  If I could purchase those 2 and have an app like Aero to get all my Dallas local stations without an antenna- Cable would be gone.

Cable providers have me by the balls due to sports and sports only.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CustomTB View Post

And risking being called a troll but... I wish AppleTV had Amazon Prime access. I already pay for that so for the free shipping and it just seems silly to also pay for Netflix.

I agree.  Amazon Prime is substantially the better deal over Netflix- particularly if you shop online- which I do almost exclusively.

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post #45 of 148

I love that there adding content but I think sooner or later there going to need a new UI refreash like Roku did to handle the apps on the Apple TV, I think the only thing I wish is that apple would add Ultraviolet movies to Itunes, everyone keeps wanting Vudu or Amazon I just can't see them adding a competitor to there lineup

post #46 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertlowe79 View Post

I love that there adding content but I think sooner or later there going to need a new UI refreash like Roku did to handle the apps on the Apple TV, I think the only thing I wish is that apple would add Ultraviolet movies to Itunes, everyone keeps wanting Vudu or Amazon I just can't see them adding a competitor to there lineup

Isn't ultraviolet a competitor to iTunes as well? I only know it as when I purchase a Blu ray, and it comes with a digital copy. I have the choice to redeem through UV, iTunes, or Vudu. I pick iTunes. The studios have negotiated rates with apple and they pay them. If I did UV and apple just "allowed UV", then they wouldn't make anything.
I don't understand who would pick UV over iTunes. Even their FAQs say that they only have to allow the movie for two years. iTunes is permanent


I agree about the UI- I'd like to delete channels. But I've also wanted to delete newsstand since it started. Can't even put that stupid thing in a folder.

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post #47 of 148
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Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

DAMNIT! Stop reading my mind!!! lol.gif

How do you like Amazon Prime? I kinda cut the cord. I have internet and just very basic TV channels along with Hulu+ and iTunes on the Apple TV. Is the video quality and interface comparable to iTunes or Hulu+ as far as you know? Does Amazon Prime fill in some content gaps? If so, I'd definitely buy a Prime membership.

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post #48 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVince View Post

And still no 'Lovefilm' or BBC iPlayer.. Would also welcome keyboard / Apple TV function..

There is already a keyboard function, both through the remote app and the ability to pair Bluetooth keyboards. 1smile.gif

I agree re. iPlayer.
post #49 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post

How do you like Amazon Prime? I kinda cut the cord. I have internet and just very basic TV channels along with Hulu+ and iTunes on the Apple TV. Is the video quality and interface comparable to iTunes or Hulu+ as far as you know? Does Amazon Prime fill in some content gaps? If so, I'd definitely buy a Prime membership.

It's nice. It has almost everything Netflix has- less some great shows like arrested development. I'm surprised you cut the cord and don't have Netflix. Amazon prime is fantastic because of the shows and shipping for less than $ Netflix annually. The downside is you can't even airplay to Apple TV- you'd have to mirror off a Mac which would be very inconvenient.

I'd say get the free trial to Netflix- if you like it, get that and wait until amazon gets on the Apple TV (if ever) to switch. Both are great for kids shows too.

I do prime for the shipping. The shows are a side benefit, but because of no ATV convenient access, I still have Netflix. The day they add it is when I save $7.99/mo. 1smile.gif

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post #50 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Still waiting for BBC iPlayer. 1frown.gif

+1! BBC iPlayer and 4OD please!
post #51 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

If only the HBO Go App didn't require a cable subscription...

Why doesn't HBO set up their own paid subscription service, for those of us who would like to cut cable TV?

 

 

Starz and Netflix had a deal and cable companies forced them to choose: Netflix or us.  Starz ended their deal with Netflix.  HBO probably knows if they offer a subscription service cable companies are going to freak out.  I don't know if HBO will risk their relationships with cable companies for an online-only service.  The money they get out of cable subscriptions is all but assured.  

 

Fact is, cable companies have you right where they want you.  They provide the high speed internet needed from the video and also have massive amounts of influence with stations and the entertainment industry.  They'll make sure Starz, HBO and others don't stream their programming by ending contracts, throttling bandwidth, or implementing stricter data caps.

 

Even if everyone said "screw you Comcast" and cut the cord anyway, the cable companies would just raise the rates on high-speed internet or implement ridiculously low data caps to force everyone back to cable.

 

It's going to take A LONG time,  This is an uphill battle as cable companies have customers and networks over a barrel.  

post #52 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisdf View Post

 

Yeah, an F1 channel would be cool. I don't know of any way to watch F1 online. I watch it on Speed. The closest thing is the ESPN F1 website, but that's only a live feed.

Thanks Chris. I may need to break down and get cable after not having cable for 5 years! :) Really miss F1.

post #53 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

If only the HBO Go App didn't require a cable subscription...

Why doesn't HBO set up their own paid subscription service, for those of us who would like to cut cable TV?

Agreed 100000000%
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post #54 of 148

Regarding the continuing HBO Go fiasco, there is only one way to get cable companies to do what we want - money.  The loss of it.  There needs to be a mass of people dropping their cable and citing the restrictive policies as a reason for the cancellation.  This is happening but slow enough that no one is really that interested in changing their policies.  In time, this slow dripping away of customers will make them change.  The only thing that will speed up the process is for the drip to turn into a flood.  As long as people keep paying their cable company crazy sums of money they won't change a thing.

 

Personally, I cut that over-expensive cord just about seven years ago and haven't looked back.

post #55 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

If only the HBO Go App didn't require a cable subscription...

Why doesn't HBO set up their own paid subscription service, for those of us who would like to cut cable TV?
You are not the only one who feels that way.
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post #56 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia View Post

How do you like Amazon Prime? I kinda cut the cord. I have internet and just very basic TV channels along with Hulu+ and iTunes on the Apple TV. Is the video quality and interface comparable to iTunes or Hulu+ as far as you know? Does Amazon Prime fill in some content gaps? If so, I'd definitely buy a Prime membership.

 

 

I like Prime but can't compare it to Netflix as I haven't used Netflix in awhile. When I did use Netflix it was on a wii and the quality stunk.

 

You can't Airplay Prime and computer downloads are lower quality so to stream Prime I bought the Roku 3 for $99.99. Great quality pic although set up was a pain and it takes a minute to buffer the show on my 3 Mbps connection. The picture quality is apparently adjusted to meet your connection speed.

 

Prime selection is decent. Free movies and shows are mostly older with some newer ones mixed in. We've been watching Downton Abbey for free on Prime. I think now Exclusive to Prime for streaming. It runs $15-20/season on iTunes.

 

Amazon is also coming out with some original content. Looks decent so far. Haven't watched netflix's house of cards.

 

When I'm stuck buying something I skip Amazon and get it on iTunes for AppleTV,iPad etc.


Edited by CustomTB - 6/19/13 at 11:22am
post #57 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by aross99 View Post

This is a good addition for the Apple TV. All of the networks that have iPad apps should be pushing to get on the Apple TV. It is a much better experience than having to deal with Airplay, etc.

As for the options to get Pay Channels on the Apple TV without a cable subscription. That's not going to happen until someone forces it. The Pay channels are too worried about upsetting the cable companies, which represent much more revenue than the potential from online only subscriptions. At least for today...

It's even compounded more when the pay tv channels are owned by a cable company.
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post #58 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

'HBO Go requires a paid cable subscription to HBO'

Pathetic dinosaurs.

post #59 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertlowe79 View Post

...UI refresh...

I agree, insofar as it just needs to start on the grid of icons rather than having the stupid top thing at all.
Quote:
...apps on the Apple TV...

What makes you think that's happening? I really like how they're handling it now–adding ever more services from the post-television (yes, that's going to be a term soon; of course it'll be "post-TV") era, creating an ecosystem that matches and fulfills the name of the device itself.
Quote:
...add Ultraviolet movies to iTunes...

UltraViolet is the worst thing to happen to video media since Blu-ray discs.
Edited by Tallest Skil - 6/19/13 at 11:03am

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post #60 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by yensid98 View Post

Regarding the continuing HBO Go fiasco, there is only one way to get cable companies to do what we want - money.  The loss of it.  There needs to be a mass of people dropping their cable and citing the restrictive policies as a reason for the cancellation.  This is happening but slow enough that no one is really that interested in changing their policies.  In time, this slow dripping away of customers will make them change.  The only thing that will speed up the process is for the drip to turn into a flood.  As long as people keep paying their cable company crazy sums of money they won't change a thing.

Personally, I cut that over-expensive cord just about seven years ago and haven't looked back.

Agreed. We cut cable and land line phone two years ago, going 100% Internet with FiOS and thanks to Netflix on Apple TV and some movies from iTunes we have never enjoyed TV so much. No Fracking news, entertainment when we want and no ads. What's not to like 1smile.gif
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post #61 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by zroger73 View Post

 

Eggzactly. The ATV is beginning to remind me of my first Sony Blu-Ray player a few years ago. It was absolutely polluted with junk icons (kinda like a new Windows PC) - there was (is?) a dedicated icon just for a Michael Jackson video!

 

Go to settings -> Parental Controls and turn them (parental controls) on. Then, you hide individual icons to get rid of the clutter. When they add new ones (like the HBO one), those are default to "show" so you don't miss out on new stuff being added.

 

After you hide what you don't want. You can hold select on an icon (on the home screen) and rearrange them just like on an iPhone...

post #62 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

If only the HBO Go App didn't require a cable subscription...

Why doesn't HBO set up their own paid subscription service, for those of us who would like to cut cable TV?

HBO is owned by Time Warner, so I think that is unlikely to happen for now...
post #63 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

UltraViolet is the worst thing to happen to video media since Blu-ray discs.

 

How exactly was Blu-ray discs bad for video media?

 

As a studio, or producer of video media, it has given physical media a new life and allowed for physical media to be relevant still.  Blu-Ray sales were 28.5% higher in the first quarter this year than first quarter of 2012.  Spending on digital distribution jumped up 26% during that time (2.5% less for those doing math).  So as a producer, it is doing much better than DVDs alone would have.

 

As a consumer, you get better 1080p than any digital distributor is offering, and substantially better sound.  When I pay $12.99 for Oz the great and powerful with a coupon ($20 without a coupon) on a AVC-encoded 1080p Blu Ray with 7.1 DTS-HD Audio, and also get a DVD and and iTunes HD version of it included- how is that a worse deal for me than just buying it off iTunes for $20?

 

Will physical media outlast digital?  Of course not.  But Blu-Ray was an enormous tourniquet and a great move for both the consumer and studios.

 

Please don't make anymore idiotic comments.

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post #64 of 148
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Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

...it has given physical media a new life and allowed for physical media to be relevant still.

I'm sure you've heard the phrase 'prolonging the inevitable'. Why are you cheering on the stagnation of technology?
Quote:
Will physical media outlast digital?  Of course not.  But Blu-Ray was an enormous tourniquet...

And that's all it was. The leg has been cut off. It's not going to grow back. Quit whining and start physical therapy already. If you hadn't put it off, the gangrene might not have set in and you'd have kept that side of your hip, too.

The metaphor's starting to get a bit complicated, but you know what I'm saying. Without an incentive as powerful as Hollywood media to push the expansion of cheap, uncapped bandwidth... well, we haven't had it. And so we still have the cyclical argument of "Why push 1080p content over the Internet; there's not enough bandwidth for it," and "Why build out faster and cheaper Internet for anyone? There's no content that needs it in the first place."

We'd all have 20 meg connections by now if Hollywood had decided on digital instead of the stopgap that is Blu-ray.
Quote:
Please don't make anymore idiotic comments.

Hilarious.

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post #65 of 148

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

We'd all have 20 meg connections by now if Hollywood had decided on digital instead of the stopgap that is Blu-ray.

No, we wouldn't.  Digital has virtually no overhead and if the studios have as much power as you claim- why not just deliver it digitally and charge what they are charging for physical media currently?  I thought I told you already- please don't make idiotic comments.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

 

How exactly was Blu-ray discs bad for video media?

Instead of ignoring the facts that I put out on how Blu-Rays both benefited the producers and consumers- would you care to actually answer the question posed?

 

It's definitely not good to see you back....

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post #66 of 148
I can hardly wait until Aereo comes to my area (this fall!). I don't watch sports much so with Aereo and its DVR service, Netflix and Hulu...not to mention using my friends HBO GO...this guy is canceling DirectTV and cutting the cord!
post #67 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

...if the studios have as much power as you claim- why not just deliver it digitally and charge what they are charging for physical media currently?

Because we don't have the bandwidth to do so right now. Are you paying attention at all?
Quote:
I thought I told you already- please don't make idiotic comments.

No no no, you have to say it with force! With feeling! How is anyone supposed to believe you when you're basing your argument off of a reality that fundamentally wouldn't exist in this supposition?
Quote:
Instead of ignoring the facts that I put out on how Blu-Rays both benefited the producers and consumers- would you care to actually answer the question posed?

I already answered the first one; choosing to ignore it doesn't mean it isn't there. As for the second, about content quality, that's also covered in my original answer. With the bandwidth to push said content, obviously the content would exist.

Do I really need to go back through and lay it down for you? I'll draw a picture if I have to, but I'd have to hook my tablet back up. To recap:

If you have the content creators actively pushing FOR bandwidth expansion rather than pushing AGAINST it, you wind up with, shocker, more bandwidth, thanks to lobbying and whatever else they do. FROM that, everything else falls into place. With the bandwidth to carry it, you'd see 1080p. With the bandwidth to carry it, you'd see 7.1 audio. I'm sorry, but I thought that just followed logically without needing to be stated. Blu-ray is the stopgap for that. It's a cheap way to get the "bandwidth" out to people because the telecoms refuse to do it themselves.
Quote:
It's definitely not good to see you back....

There there. You lived before.
Edited by Tallest Skil - 6/19/13 at 12:00pm

Originally posted by Marvin

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Originally posted by Marvin

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post #68 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


If you have the content creators actively pushing FOR bandwidth expansion rather than pushing AGAINST it, you wind up with, shocker, more bandwidth, thanks to lobbying and whatever else they do.

Oh, ok.  So you have no idea and can't answer without just pulling a hypothetical out of your ass.

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post #69 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisdf View Post

They need to add NFL to their sports lineup.
I completely agree. The only reason I pay for cable is for NFL, I'd love to end that.
post #70 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by CustomTB View Post

Showtime is the only thing that keeps me at a high cable package.

And risking being called a troll but... I wish AppleTV had Amazon Prime access. I already pay for that so for the free shipping and it just seems silly to also pay for Netflix.

No. Many of us have Amazon Prime. I have AppleTV and Roku. AppleTV is much higher quality; more consistent (but far from perfect UI), more responsive, better picture quality.

Netflix has far more content than Amazon Prime though.
post #71 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Oh, ok.  So you have no idea and can't answer without just pulling a hypothetical out of your ass.

Thanks for agreeing with the rest of my post, at any rate.

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post #72 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Thanks for agreeing with the rest of my post, at any rate.

*yawn*- you mean the sentences you edited and added after I posted my response.  Ya..... I agree with that 1oyvey.gif

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post #73 of 148

sorta kinda Ultraviolet is more less a cloud storage where say you buy a movie like Blu-ray and you enter a code and able to stream the movie in the cloud, if apple wants to dance with the movie companies they might as well add ultraviolet suppost so that they people can have a choice in which format they want if they want to watch in the cloud ok if they want to watch a dvd or blu-ray copy ok

post #74 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertlowe79 View Post

sorta kinda Ultraviolet is more less a cloud storage where say you buy a movie like Blu-ray and you enter a code and able to stream the movie in the cloud, if apple wants to dance with the movie companies they might as well add ultraviolet suppost so that they people can have a choice in which format they want if they want to watch in the cloud ok if they want to watch a dvd or blu-ray copy ok

But the movie company would have to pay Apple.  They own Ultraviolet (Warner and others)- so it's free.  The studious would love for Apple to support UV, but it's a bad move for Apple because then they don't get paid for their digital copies they license with the movies.  It's also bad for me because I trust Apple/iTunes to not screw me with that digital copy over UV/Movie studios any day.

 

My whole thought on why the media companies are slightly nervous is simply because once a movie is purchased digitally- it's there forever.  Whereas if they go from VHS to Laserdisc to DVD to Blu-Ray to Blu-ray 3D, etc.- you end up buying catalog titles over and over.  If Tallest would have mentioned this as why he thought Blu-Ray was bad for everyone, he would have sounded intelligent.  Of course, we all know he didn't say it, nor did he sound intelligent.

 

However- the problem won't be fixed even when the studios eventually move to digital only- which will happen inevitably.  Just like they do with UV- they have a disclaimer that the titles are only valid for 2 years digitally.  Now, they aren't enforcing that currently- but they could at any moment.... and don't think they won't if it ever became the standard one day.  For now, I'll enjoy my media however I want.  If I want a superior presentation in my media room- Blu-Rays only.  If I just want to watch whatever or something on the go- iTunes, Netflix, HBO Go, or Amazon.

 

And in terms of Tallest saying movie studios should force bandwidth to be expanded... thats literally the dumbest sentence I've ever seen uttered regarding this topic.  The sad truth is likely going to be that we will be all digital and physical media will be completely obsolete before bandwidth is expanded to support Blu Ray quality video and sound.  We will be hoping more encodings are developed that can get us to "good enough".  Convenience will overcome the slight increase in quality by that time.


Edited by Andysol - 6/19/13 at 12:26pm

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post #75 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

If you have the content creators actively pushing FOR bandwidth expansion rather than pushing AGAINST it, you wind up with, shocker, more bandwidth, thanks to lobbying and whatever else they do. FROM that, everything else falls into place. With the bandwidth to carry it, you'd see 1080p. With the bandwidth to carry it, you'd see 7.1 audio. I'm sorry, but I thought that just followed logically without needing to be stated. Blu-ray is the stopgap for that. It's a cheap way to get the "bandwidth" out to people because the telecoms refuse to do it themselves.
There there. You lived before.

If it was that easy, I'm sure the content creators would have chosen it over blue-ray. After all, with digital they have way more control; the consumer can't lend a movie to their buddy, resell it on e-bay, or even pass it on to their loved ones once they are gone.... Blu-ray has these advantages for consumers (although I'm still not buying them)...

post #76 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTown View Post

I agree. I've cut the cord and get the little bit of broadcast television I actually watch over a digital antenna. I would happily pay for HBO and Showtime if I didn't have to get the rest of the bloated package. Till then, I'll be illegally downloading Dexter, True Blood, etc., etc.

 

Why would HBO create a sales team when they already have the massive sales forces of EVERY cable provider selling their product for them? Would it be nice to get HBO without the cable plan, sure, but you have to admit the staus quo is working pretty well for HBO.

post #77 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrabu View Post

If it was that easy, I'm sure the content creators would have chosen it over blue-ray. After all, with digital they have way more control; the consumer can't lend a movie to their buddy, resell it on e-bay, or even pass it on to their loved ones once they are gone.... Blu-ray has these advantages for consumers (although I'm still not buying them)...

Don't question the all knowing.  :)

 

I agree with you completely.  Additionally- he assumes that even if by some miracle that the bandwidth was expanded, that the consumer would be given a product on-par with or superior to Blu-Ray.  However; history has shown us this isn't true.  CDs still give a better bit rate than downloaded MP3s from iTunes, even though the bandwidth is there to support larger bitrate downloads.  Like I said the first time, he just pulled it out of his ass with nothing to back it up.

2012 27" iMac i7, 2010 27" iMac i7, 2011 Mac Mini i5
iPad Air, iPad Mini Retina, (2) iPhone 5S, iPod Touch 5
Time Capsule 5, (3) AirPort Express 2, (2) Apple TV 3

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2012 27" iMac i7, 2010 27" iMac i7, 2011 Mac Mini i5
iPad Air, iPad Mini Retina, (2) iPhone 5S, iPod Touch 5
Time Capsule 5, (3) AirPort Express 2, (2) Apple TV 3

Reply
post #78 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by CustomTB View Post

 

 

I like Prime but can't compare it to Netflix as I haven't used Netflix in awhile. When I did use Netflix it was on a wii and the quality stunk.

 

You can't Airplay Prime and computer downloads are lower quality so to stream Prime I bought the Roku 3 for $99.99. Great quality pic although set up was a pain and it takes a minute to buffer the show on my 3 Mbps connection. The picture quality is apparently adjusted to meet your connection speed.

 

Prime selection is decent. Free movies and shows are mostly older with some newer ones mixed in. We've been watching Downton Abbey for free on Prime. I think now Exclusive to Prime for streaming. It runs $15-20/season on iTunes.

 

Amazon is also coming out with some original content. Looks decent so far. Haven't watched netflix's house of cards.

 

When I'm stuck buying something I skip Amazon and get it on iTunes for AppleTV,iPad etc.

Thanks! The requirement for Airplay is the deal breaker for me. I can Airplay, but there's too much lag and the picture quality is not great. Maybe after I upgrade to 802.11ac from n for all my hardware I'll give it a shot. I recently gave up Netflix after I watched all of House of Cards because there was so little I wanted to watch. I switched to Hulu+ because there are more network shows and of course, the Criterion Collection. Having Hulu+ and Netflix didn't make much sense to me, so Amazon Prime might not make much sense right now-I don't do that much buying from Amazon.

For your sake, I hope you're right.
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For your sake, I hope you're right.
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post #79 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Fixed so it's less insulting.
How is the headline "insulting"? 1hmm.gif
post #80 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post


You are not the only one who feels that way.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

 

Exept that Game of Thrones IS available on itunes, I bought the 2 seasons in french in itunes. On the other hand, I am not sure the latest season in available while its playing on HBO.

 

Currently, I am watching in it english while its playing on HBO and I watch the french version to recap just before the next season begins.


Edited by herbapou - 6/19/13 at 1:20pm
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