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Apple, Amazon can't settle 'Appstore' issue as August trial looms - Page 2

post #41 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


Apple might lose, but the fact that the term app had been used before Apple started using it is meaningless. The issue is whether the term was generic at the time Apple started using it. I do not recall the term having widespread usage before Apple incorporated it. I am sure Apple made the term popular, which does establish consumer recognition towards Apple's use of the Mark. 

It will be interesting to see what happens. 

Wait, why are we even talking about 'app'? It's 'app store' that is in question.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #42 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Apple might lose, but the fact that the term app had been used before Apple started using it is meaningless. The issue is whether the term was generic at the time Apple started using it. I do not recall the term having widespread usage before Apple incorporated it. I am sure Apple made the term popular, which does establish consumer recognition towards Apple's use of the Mark. 

 

I absolutely agree that Apple made the word "app" popular with the mass populace.  However, the term was well known already to smaller groups.

 

The fact that a generic term isn't well known to the mass public, does not mean it belongs to the first person to make it popularly known.   There must be millions of such terms in the medical, engineering, aviation, marine, manufacturing, archaeological, heck... any!... field.

 

Remember, Apple also made the term "multi-touch" popular.   But although the USPTO originally allowed that trademark as well, they ultimately denied it to Apple after a protest was lodged by a famous touch researcher who argued successfully that the phrase was already a generic term in the touchscreen world.

 

So.  "App" was already generic.  That cannot be denied.

 

However, is "App Store" generic?  The two words together are the real debate.


Edited by KDarling - 6/20/13 at 12:37pm
post #43 of 70

Fighting over the difference between app store vs. App Store vs. Appstore seems like a waste of time for all parties involved.

post #44 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Fighting over the difference between app store vs. App Store vs. Appstore seems like a waste of time for all parties involved.

Someone comes on here with the username "Droid FTW" and starts insulting himself and his own genitalia and you're not bothered by it? lol.gif

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #45 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Someone comes on here with the username "Droid FTW" and starts insulting himself and his own genitalia and you're not bothered by it? lol.gif

 

Pardon?

post #46 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

"Application" predates Apple.  "Killer app" predates NeXT.   And "app" had been used for handheld programs for many years before the iPhone came along.

 

 

"1" and "One" predates Amazon. "Click" predates Amazon. Therefore "1-Click" cannot be trademarked. Oh, wait a minute....

post #47 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Pardon?

Well, you think it's a waste of time to protect the uniqueness of something you created.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #48 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen View Post

"1" and "One" predates Amazon. "Click" predates Amazon. Therefore "1-Click" cannot be trademarked. Oh, wait a minute....

 

Yep.  You're saying the same thing that I am.  

 

It's the combination of the two words that should be the debate topic, not whether "app" or "click" by themselves are generic terms.

post #49 of 70

*sigh*

 

This place was a lot better when TS was banned.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Well, you think it's a waste of time to protect the uniqueness of something you created.

 

TS, I know your past post history so I'm not going to bother addressing this straw man argument.  I may never know what you're talking about when you said that someone was insulting themselves and referencing genitalia, but I can live with that.


Good day, sir.

post #50 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

I think the fact that Apple basically invented the term "App" and that it was in use exclusively in the NeXT/Apple community for years before any "outsiders" ever even heard of it or used it should be the trump card in Apple's favour.  

 

Also, Amazon's argument is that it was a term in general use before Apple's app store and thus common and "generic."  The existence of a couple of examples of obscure use of the term doesn't actually prove that point.  for Amazon to prove it's point, the term would have to be in wide-spread use to the point of ubiquity.  

 

Some background on "AppStore"/"App Store":

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/mac/apples-app-store-and-a-little-trademark-history/1063

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #51 of 70

I think it's hilarious that Microsoft, the company that trademarked the name "Windows" for a windowing user interface, is objecting to Apple's application for a mark for "App store".  Where was microsoft's objection to Sage or Salesforce.com's marks?  Oh, that's right, they didn't make any. 

 

The reason is, in 1998 and 2006, there was no Apple App Store, whose name they wanted to steal. 

 

However, Sage networks abandoned their mark. They would have had a claim if they maintained the mark.  The more relevant one is Salesforce.com's mark.  They have a claim on the name, thus when they "gave" it to Apple, or abandoned it in deference to Apple, they are effectively transferring their rights to the name to Apple. (without actually selling the name.)

 

For amazon to prevail, they need to show that Salesforce has no right to the name also.   And it would be damn hard to claim it was a generic term in 2006.... which also proves Apple's point.  It only became well known when Apple introduced the App Store in 2008.

 

 

Quote:
  • 2011 Jul - Tim Cook refers to "app stores" in the generic sense in a quarterly call.

 

This is akin to Balmer talking about the mac and saying it "has windows".  It's true, the mac does have windows, and had it before Windows did.  Except that Windows is a completely generic term, while "App store" is a unique combination of two terms. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post
Still, the same words can be trademarked if the words become exclusively associated with a certain company.   Unfortunately, even Apple's own CEO has used "app store" in a generic sense, and consumers in general were already using "app store" the same way. 

 

The term "App store" means Apple's App Store.  Despite knowing about Amazon's "Amazon App Store" for years, I forget that it is called that.  The idea that consumers in general have heard of it seems a bit silly.  Certainly if you asked 100 people in america "who runs the app store", at least 99 out of 100 who didn't name some other company or didn't know would say Apple.  I doubt even that 1 out of 100 would say Amazon.

 

The author of that article does not understand trademarks. 

post #52 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

TS, I know your past post history so I'm not going to bother addressing this straw man argument.  I may never know what you're talking about when you said that someone was insulting themselves and referencing genitalia, but I can live with that.

What in heaven's name is wrong with you? There was nothing whatsoever unclear about the example I presented. Either ask for clarification, find it yourself, or just don't bother posting. 1oyvey.gif

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #53 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


What in heaven's name is wrong with you? There was nothing whatsoever unclear about the example I presented. Either ask for clarification, find it yourself, or just don't bother posting. 1oyvey.gif

 

post #54 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post



So that's two people who pretend not to understand the similarities between the argument for DroidFTW and Droid FTW and AppStore and App Store.

'Kay, thanks. You really represent... a lot. 1oyvey.gif

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #55 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessi View Post
 

The term "App store" means Apple's App Store.  

 

Not according to Apple CEO Tim Cook, who has used it to mean app stores in general. For instance, during a public quarterly call he said:

 

"We've got the largest app store ..."
 
and
 
"... iPhone's integrated approach is materially better than Android's fragmented approach, where you have multiple OSes on multiple devices with different screen resolutions and multiple app stores with different ... "
 

He could've used another term like  "app markets" ,  "app providers",  "app sellers", etc.  But he did what any normal person would do, and automatically called them "app stores" because it's such an obvious generic term for them.

 

Quote:
Despite knowing about Amazon's "Amazon App Store" for years, I forget that it is called that.  The idea that consumers in general have heard of it seems a bit silly.  Certainly if you asked 100 people in america "who runs the app store", at least 99 out of 100 who didn't name some other company or didn't know would say Apple.  I doubt even that 1 out of 100 would say Amazon.

 

But Apple didn't try to trademark "The App Store".   Just "App Store".  And there's a lot of Android users out there.  So if we ask a hundred people "who runs an app store?", we'll likely get back at least "Apple and Google", plus "Amazon" from all the Kindle Fire owners and any savvy Android users.

 

Personally I think Apple should've gone with something less generic.  "Apple App Orchard" or something.  Now THAT would be a term that nobody could copy without running into clear trouble.  

post #56 of 70
Well, the term Coca-Cola is also trademarked. Just because Cocacola is grammatically different from Coca-Cola doesn't mean a company can start a Cocacola brand, when Coca-Cola is hugely popular. The term App Store has become generic, well... so has Coca-Cola.

You can call a Pepsi a Coca-Cola and no one will care.
But you can't trademark another Coca-Cola, that's why it's called Pepsi.

And that's why Apple's is App Store, Google's is Play Store, and Microsoft's Whatever Market.

I'm thirsty. 1cool.gif
post #57 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

"who runs an app store?", we'll likely get back at least "Apple and Google", plus "Amazon" from all the Kindle Fire owners and any savvy Android users.


Personally I think Apple should've gone with something less generic.  "Apple App Orchard" or something.  Now THAT would be a term that nobody could copy without running into clear trouble.  

Who makes coke? Coca-Cola and Pepsi. Who owns the Coke trademark? Coca-Cola, not Pepsi. So there are many brands of coke, but the only one of them who can use the term officially is Coca-Cola.

However, Coca-Cola doesn't have the Cola trademark, which in analogous terms is the 'Store' part in question.

So Amazon can use Program Store, Applicationstore, SoftwareStore. But not App Store nor Appstore.

Just like you can't trademark 'Cocacola', because Coca-Cola already exists.
post #58 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMarques View Post

Well, the term Coca-Cola is also trademarked. Just because Cocacola is grammatically different from Coca-Cola doesn't mean a company can start a Cocacola brand, when Coca-Cola is hugely popular. The term App Store has become generic, well... so has Coca-Cola.

You can call a Pepsi a Coca-Cola and no one will care.
But you can't trademark another Coca-Cola, that's why it's called Pepsi.

And that's why Apple's is App Store, Google's is Play Store, and Microsoft's Whatever Market.

I'm thirsty. 1cool.gif

 

"These pretzels...... ARE MAKING ME THIRSTY!"

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #59 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

*sigh*

 

This place was a lot better when TS was banned.

 

 

TS, I know your past post history so I'm not going to bother addressing this straw man argument.  I may never know what you're talking about when you said that someone was insulting themselves and referencing genitalia, but I can live with that.


Good day, sir.

 

You hit the eject button right when the debate was coming into focus. His argument isn't a straw man. It's the basis of Apple's suit against Amazon. Apple alleges that Amazon is using a trademark ("App Store") that Apple owns, and Amazon dispute that. TS paraphrased the suit as "protecting the uniqueness of something you created" -- in this case, Apple is trying to protect the uniqueness of the App Store trademark.

 

I get that you think the suit is a waste of time for everybody. That's your opinion, and I'm fine with it. Just back it up with something stronger than dismissing the crux of the lawsuit a "straw man." That doesn't make any sense.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #60 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMarques View Post

Who makes coke? Coca-Cola and Pepsi. Who owns the Coke trademark? Coca-Cola, not Pepsi. So there are many brands of coke, but the only one of them who can use the term officially is Coca-Cola.

However, Coca-Cola doesn't have the Cola trademark, which in analogous terms is the 'Store' part in question.

So Amazon can use Program Store, Applicationstore, SoftwareStore. But not App Store nor Appstore.

Just like you can't trademark 'Cocacola', because Coca-Cola already exists.

Pepsi makes Pepsi Cola. "Coke" is not a generic term to describe Pepsi. The generic term is cola.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #61 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Yes it's a generic term (like "Shoe Store" or "Car Dealership") and stupid to claim the rights to it but is it really worth spending a ton of time and money to fight about it? Amazon should really just change the name of their app store and be done with it. It seems like they're not too bright about picking which battles to fight.


Yes I agree it's now a generic term and these big guys should just agree on some compromise.

But with lawyers involved,  they will drag it on, spending money they made from us.

Time these big companies behaved like adults occasionally!

post #62 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Pepsi makes Pepsi Cola. "Coke" is not a generic term to describe Pepsi. The generic term is cola.

You clearly haven't been to places in the South like Atlanta.
post #63 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What in heaven's name is wrong with you? There was nothing whatsoever unclear about the example I presented. Either ask for clarification, find it yourself, or just don't bother posting. 1oyvey.gif

He clearly didn't get the whole "DroidFTW" vs "Droid FTW" thing. Right over his head. He just fixated on genitalia.
post #64 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

He clearly didn't get the whole "DroidFTW" vs "Droid FTW" thing. Right over his head. He just fixated on genitalia.

Exactly. And I chose that simply to reference the small penis rule, as that's a perfect example of the kind of damage to a reputation that the App Store/Appstore fight is about.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #65 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Exactly. And I chose that simply to reference the small penis rule, as that's a perfect example of the kind of damage to a reputation that the App Store/Appstore fight is about.

I don't know if it damages the reputation as much as dilutes the value that Apple put into the mark.

What value did "App Store" have pre-iPhone? What's the value now?

Amazon is trying to say its generic in order to get a free ride and share the wealth. Yikes, put in those terms it's likely to give Apple][ a stroke.
post #66 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

I don't know if it damages the reputation as much as dilutes the value that Apple put into the mark.

You're not wrong, but think of it this way:

John Q. Public gets his brand new "I-phone" (some Android crap) and goes to the Appstore to get an app. The app is a trojan that steals his personal information and e-mails all of his contacts. Or it's just a useless 1:1 Flash port that still expects a hover state. Or it's native but all it can do is crash. Now John's upset at the Appstore, and probably upset at his phone. So his contract's up or whatever and he gets an iPhone. But wait! He remembers his experience with the Appstore and is wary about getting anything from the App Store. His experience, developers' and Apple's revenues, and Apple's reputation are diminished because Apple is curating an "untrustworthy" storefront.

EDIT: can't stand the BBCode editor...

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #67 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You're not wrong, but think of it this way:

John Q. Public gets his brand new "I-phone" (some Android crap) and goes to the Appstore to get an app. The app is a trojan that steals his personal information and e-mails all of his contacts. Or it's just a useless 1:1 Flash port that still expects a hover state. Or it's native but all it can do is crash. Now John's upset at the Appstore, and probably upset at his phone. So his contract's up or whatever and he gets an iPhone. But wait! He remembers his experience with the Appstore and is wary about getting anything from the App Store. His experience, developers' and Apple's revenues, and Apple's reputation are diminished because Apple is curating an "untrustworthy" storefront.

EDIT: can't stand the BBCode editor...

Fair point, if a little extreme. I thought the Amazon Appstore (I hate typing that) was curated. Still, there's the issue of quality, so a degree you're correct.
post #68 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post


Fair point, if a little extreme. I thought the Amazon Appstore (I hate typing that) was curated. Still, there's the issue of quality, so a degree you're correct.

 

You're correct.  The Amazon Appstore is curated, and Amazon themselves have a great reputation for customer service.

 

Speaking of experience when moving between stores, I think that Amazon customers would really miss the Free App of the Day if they moved to the Apple store.

 

As for damage to the Apple App Store's reputation, Apple has managed that all by themselves:

 

For example, back when they were in a rush to pump up their app count.  For a while they allowed an unlimited number of fart and website links and other junk apps to be approved.  (Once their app count was high enough, Apple went back and removed most such apps.)

 

Apple's store also looked bad when they refused apps like that one from the Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist... or conversely, approved apps like the one about shaking a baby to death.


Edited by KDarling - 6/24/13 at 5:35am
post #69 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

You're correct.  The Amazon Appstore is curated, and Amazon themselves have a great reputation for customer service.

Speaking of experience when moving between stores, I think that Amazon customers would really miss the Free App of the Day if they moved to the Apple store.

As for damage to the Apple App Store's reputation, Apple has managed that all by themselves:


For example, back when they were in a rush to pump up their app count.  For a while they allowed an unlimited number of fart and website links and other junk apps to be approved.  
(Once their app count was high enough, Apple went back and removed most such apps.)


Apple's store also looked bad when they refused apps like that one from the Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist... or conversely, approved apps like the one about shaking a baby to death.

Those things that supposedly hurt their reputation only served as talking points for the anti-Apple brigade. Considering the App Store is growing by leaps and bounds, I don't think their reputation with actual customers is hurting any.
post #70 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Those things that supposedly hurt their reputation only served as talking points for the anti-Apple brigade. Considering the App Store is growing by leaps and bounds, I don't think their reputation with actual customers is hurting any.

 

Thank you for being an intelligent reader.  That was exactly the point of bringing up those negatives.  Smart people realize that they haven't stopped users.

 

Likewise, negatives brought up about other stores, have not stopped their use at all, but have only been talking points for the "anti-whatever brigades".

 

Heck, you can't even get people riled up about the government snooping their calls.  All people seem to care about these days, is if they get their mobile entertainment for cheap.

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