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IDC: Apple's iPhone sheds European marketshare in Q1, pushed out of top 5 in India - Page 3

post #81 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

IDC reports what they are paid to report. They are a PR firm, not independent analysts. (Though they pretend to be objective)

Since no android makers report their sales, but Apple does, we know how many iphones are sold but not how many androids.

There's no proof android has more than %5 of the market.

It's time for AppleInsider and all non-apple-hating media to stop reporting these press releases as if they were relevant.

They have two faces.

 

1) present day stats. Which are as accurate as any where else.

2) future projections. They sell those to the highest bidder - probably MS.

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post #82 of 103
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Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

And what proof do you have that Apple has 95% of the market?

Do we have to remind you every single post not to do this? 1oyvey.gif

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post #83 of 103
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Originally Posted by poksi View Post

 

I do agree almost completely. The only thing I would add is that I believe Apple can make mid-priced phone also profitable. I may be wrong, but let Apple shows us. I still believe most of Android manufacturers haven't got a clue about what makes them profitable or not. Apple is specialist at that.

 

Anyway, thanks to understand what I was trying to say and thanks for points with arguments.

 

I think Apple could be profitable at all market segments. All they need to do is make sure all phones/tablets models are good products.  Apple can still produce the "best" product for a segment.  The goal would be that anyone can buy an Apple product at any price point and always have a good product in there hands. When buying android devices, you could end up with absolute garbage because some components just dont fit with the rest and makes the product a flop. So there is a "risk" associate with going cheap. Apple could take that risk out of the equation, so charge a small premium and keep decent margins.

 

To me, Apple goal to build the "best" products doesnt mean they always have to be at the high end. They could build the "best" products by segments, to avoid getting corner in a niche. But why?  Because an ecosystem needs critical mass or it will die.

post #84 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi View Post

a) true
b) true, but this might change to new commodity of usage.
c) true, but very funny. For adult this would be alone the reason to own iPhone, but kids will be kids...
d) true as well

You may have the point here, but let me ask you: if you would have 4.6" iPhone with 9:16 ratio, would you prefer it over iPhone 5? I know I would for practical reasons. 

But you might be right about not winning many new users over with it....

Actually... I'm not sure about a larger iPhone. Funny in that I'm closer to an Android type user, in that I don't use my iPhone nearly as much as my 3 iPads (no, not like TechStud! 1smile.gif... one of which is always with me. Because of that, the size of the iPhone 5 fit's better because it's smaller at the moment. I wouldn't stop bringing an iPad with me where ever I go regardless. With that said, I would consider an iPhone 4.6"... but I really like my gadget set up the way it is at the moment.

* I confess: I carry a smaller 13-14" man-bag everywhere. Better than a back-pack or my briefcases of old. For this "Doc's" house-calls though, I still need a pilots bag for everything else. Beastly bugger it is too!
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post #85 of 103
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Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

I think Apple could be profitable at all market segments. All they need to do is make sure all phones/tablets models are good products.  Apple can still produce the "best" product for a segment.  The goal would be that anyone can buy an Apple product at any price point and always have a good product in there hands. When buying android devices, you could end up with absolute garbage because some components just dont fit with the rest and makes the product a flop. So there is a "risk" associate with going cheap. Apple could take that risk out of the equation, so charge a small premium and keep decent margins.

To me, Apple goal to build the "best" products doesnt mean they always have to be at the high end. They could build the "best" products by segments, to avoid getting corner in a niche. But why?  Because an ecosystem needs critical mass or it will die.

But if what's left over in that great pie doesn't want to participate in the eco-system... or can't for whatever financial reasons, what good is a "one-way sale" for Apple at this point? Apple already owns well over 60% of the App revenues world-wide. Their devices are designed for first for that very reason.

Let's not forget, Apple tried to this very strategy once upon a time... also without Steve Jobs... and they damn near went into bankruptcy trying to compete in that cut-throat drive to the bottom. It took a long time for Apple to rebuild their brand, and they have done a stellar job. Your strategy would put that all at risk. People "aspire" to own an iPhone some day. Check the statistics. That's called branding, and in my book, counts as doing "something" right.

If I had a say in the matter... I'd like Apple to build another "super iPhone" with once again, future tech that all of the other manufacturers just go, " Oh SH*T! Apple just moved the goal posts again!". Thus causing them to have sleepless nights and fear for their products on the marketplace. That's what Apple "used to do" best. They can then also charge what they want for it, with no regard to "average selling price", discounts, give-aways, BOGOs, or whatever other tricks the other manufacturers are left with to move their "second-tier" flotsam.

That's the Apple I want to see.... and marketshare be damned! 1cool.gif
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post #86 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post


But if what's left over in that great pie doesn't want to participate in the eco-system... or can't for whatever financial reasons, what good is a "one-way sale" for Apple at this point? Apple already owns well over 60% of the App revenues world-wide. Their devices are designed for first for that very reason.

Let's not forget, Apple tried to this very strategy once upon a time... also without Steve Jobs... and they damn near went into bankruptcy trying to compete in that cut-throat drive to the bottom. It took a long time for Apple to rebuild their brand, and they have done a stellar job. Your strategy would put that all at risk. People "aspire" to own an iPhone some day. Check the statistics. That's called branding, and in my book, counts as doing "something" right.

If I had a say in the matter... I'd like Apple to build another "super iPhone" with once again, future tech that all of the other manufacturers just go, " Oh SH*T! Apple just moved the goal posts again!". Thus causing them to have sleepless nights and fear for their products on the marketplace. That's what Apple "used to do" best. They can then also charge what they want for it, with no regard to "average selling price", discounts, give-aways, BOGOs, or whatever other tricks the other manufacturers are left with to move their "second-tier" flotsam.

That's the Apple I want to see.... and marketshare be damned! 1cool.gif

 

In the late 90's Apple went all over the place. I am not saying Apple should do that at all. But A FEW models per markets that are "The best" choice for a segment fits into Apple goals on making the best products. Apple is not only selling one model of desktop or laptop, its not selling only one model of ipod either. Hell it even has 2 tablet models now.  imo doing this in the smartphone market is obvious imo. 

 

On the tablet side, if they keep the old ipad mini model at a lower price they cover all the market segments. Low end ipad mini 1, best low end with ipad mini 2.  Middle end segment with ipad 4 and high end market segment with ipad 5. Why the F*** cant they do that where the $$$ is, with the iphones.

post #87 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Do we have to remind you every single post not to do this? 1oyvey.gif

Why? Are you the only one that can ask for a citation? That was a ludicrous claim and you know it.
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post #88 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

But if what's left over in that great pie doesn't want to participate in the eco-system... or can't for whatever financial reasons, what good is a "one-way sale" for Apple at this point? Apple already owns well over 60% of the App revenues world-wide. Their devices are designed for first for that very reason.

They own 60% of the App revenues for now. They owned more last year. You do the math.

Quote:
Let's not forget, Apple tried to this very strategy once upon a time... also without Steve Jobs... and they damn near went into bankruptcy trying to compete in that cut-throat drive to the bottom. It took a long time for Apple to rebuild their brand, and they have done a stellar job. Your strategy would put that all at risk. People "aspire" to own an iPhone some day. Check the statistics. That's called branding, and in my book, counts as doing "something" right.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. UTTERLY AND TOTALLY WRONG . And this bugs me. Because the history of Apple is simple. Doing what you suggest almost killed them, not what you think nearly killed them. You have mixed up cause and consequence.

Apple survived the 80's and went into the 90's as other companies collapsed - Microsoft and IBM excepted of course - with about 12% of the Market. Not much lower than the world iPhone market share now. But profit share was much higher than 12% as they sold the high end stuff. I distinctly remember, as a teenager in a house with Mac equipment, my Dad making your argument. Apple was the most profitable computer company in the world and that was all that mattered. Actually platform size mattered.

It was Apple's decision to hold onto that profit share and high margins - which Steve Jobs acknowledged later on when he accused the company of being run by "salesmen in the 90's -" which continued to reduce market share year on year, although I am sure profits held up for a while. I am sure that usenet fans of Apple were crowing about profit share in 1992. Later in the late 90's after the very declining platform you seem to care less about saw massive developer migration to MS, Apple panicked and licenced the OS. When they were at about 3% of the market. And since nobody is calling for licensing that analogy is utterly bankrupt.

Most importantly it was the actions of the early 90's, the seeking of profit and margins at the expense of market share which led to the near destruction of the platform and the company. The very stuff you want now.
Quote:
If I had a say in the matter... I'd like Apple to build another "super iPhone" with once again, future tech that all of the other manufacturers jus992t go, " Oh SH*T! Apple just moved the goal posts again!". Thus causing them to have sleepless nights and fear for their products on the marketplace. That's what Apple "used to do" best. They can then also charge what they want for it, with no regard to "average selling price", discounts, give-aways, BOGOs, or whatever other tricks the other manufacturers are left with to move their "second-tier" flotsam.

That's the Apple I want to see.... and marketshare be damned! 1cool.gif

If I had a say in the matter I'd like Apple to end world poverty, create endless world peace, and end cancer.

In the non fantasy realm - and nobody doubts there are other products to come in the iOS platform - we need the OS to be the first choice of developers, and that means more iOS devices of what ever sort - yes even for the "poor" in Europe or the 3rd world. That world will be middle income very soon anyway, and its better to get them early.

In reality Apple fans - who actually know the history - should be appalled by the tardiness in getting around to what came naturally to them with iPods, cover all bases once the high end is saturated, reduce prices on the main models as well, leave no price umbrella.
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post #89 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

In the late 90's Apple went all over the place. I am not saying Apple should do that at all. But A FEW models per markets that are "The best" choice for a segment fits into Apple goals on making the best products. Apple is not only selling one model of desktop or laptop, its not selling only one model of ipod either. Hell it even has 2 tablet models now.  imo doing this in the smartphone market is obvious imo. 

On the tablet side, if they keep the old ipad mini model at a lower price they cover all the market segments. Low end ipad mini 1, best low end with ipad mini 2.  Middle end segment with ipad 4 and high end market segment with ipad 5. Why the F*** cant they do that where the $$$ is, with the iphones.

It was the early 90s when Apple made a zillion models of Macs.

Again having more models per segment isn't the way to go. Apple won't play in the sub $300 phone market nor should it. Shot gun approach doesn't work. You'll just confuse customers. What's the difference between the GS4 and the GS4 Active. Why not make all GS4s the Active models?

And Apple is doing it with the iPhone. The current one is the premium while the previous two are mid tier. It will release a 5" sooner or later once they work out the trade offs. It may release a $300-400 off contract phone (probably a rejiggered 4).
post #90 of 103
And on the subject of profit share. Some simple math.

Lets say company A owns 100% of a Market. A high end market. Its profit share is 100%. Rejoice.

Company A drops to 50% of the market over time as the market becomes commoditised. Nevertheless it still has 75% of the profits - that is its profits per device are 3 times the rest. Company A's supporters crow about profit share. Boy are they excited. Platform doesn't matter to these lads.

Still making the same profits it then drops to 10% of the market still demanding 3 times the average profit, and it sells to the same people as the original 100% - the market is 10 times bigger - but no more. Profits are still high then. Profitshare? Not more than 40%. And falling. Company A's supporters crow about relative profits. Boy are they excited. Platform doesn't matter to these lads.

However, and importantly, Company A needs other actors - other rational economic actors - to work for it in a non-zero sum game where these actors produce goods which run on the devices Company A vends. These people are called the D's and they produce added value for the product which Company A produces, which encourages more people to buy these devices in a virtuous loop. However there is a high economic cost to bother to do this, and success is not guaranteed. At about 10% of the market the D's abandon the market for the other 90% of the market, not really caring about Company A's profit or profit share, which causes a vicious cycle as the platform collapses due to lack of support from the D's.

tl'dr - if you don't target the growing lower and middle end of a market eventually your profit share declines anyway even if the same number of people buy your stuff at the same margins. If you do this in a platform war you will lose.
Edited by asdasd - 6/26/13 at 2:19pm
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post #91 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

It was the early 90s when Apple made a zillion models of Macs.

No later 90s
Quote:
Again having more models per segment isn't the way to go. Apple won't play in the sub $300 phone market nor should it. Shot gun approach doesn't work. You'll just confuse customers. What's the difference between the GS4 and the GS4 Active. Why not make all GS4s the Active models?

The logical fallacy here is straw man - nobody is asking for as many models as late 90s Macs just more than one per year. Or whatever confusion about some GS4 you seem to think will happen won't- (there are multiple models of 4S but most countries get one). The other logical fallacy is assuming the conclusion. Apple won't play in the sub $300 phone market nor should it Thats what you have to argue for and prove.

And who knows if they will this year. They will however, some year.
Edited by asdasd - 6/26/13 at 2:00pm
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post #92 of 103
@Asdasd , prove Apple had a high profit share in the early 90s. Sculley was trying to increase market share and profit share. He released numerous Mac models (various performa models, powermac models). He tried to make a price point umbrella but confused consumers. Soon they wereny selling and market share dwindled and profits dwindled. Enter Spindler in the mid 90s who wanted market share and licensed Mac OS failing to realize Apple made more money on its hardware. He failed.

My eldest brother had a PM7200, 2nd oldest had a Mac clone, I had a PM7500, youngest had a performa.

iOS is the platform and that includes iPads.
post #93 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

No later 90s
The logical fallacy here is straw man - nobody is asking for as many models as late 90s Macs just more than one per year. Or whatever confusion about some GS4 you seem to think will happen won't- (there are multiple models of 4S but most countries get one). The other logical fallacy is assuming the conclusion. Apple won't play in the sub $300 phone market nor should it Thats what you have to argue for and prove.

And who knows if they will this year. They will however, some year.

Easy. Apple doesn't have a $300 Mac. To paraphrase, it doesn't know how to make a cheap phone that isn't a piece of sh1t.

And I'll say it again, iOS is the platform. Include iPads and iPod touches in your market share mix.
post #94 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

 

With the amount of cash Apple has I dont think the company will ever be "doomed" in a sense it will go bankrupt.  But the way the company is manage, it could quickly move to a niche market and have its shares continu to freefall has EPS continu to tank.

 

Apple is no longer leading the high end market in smartphone, and its missing all other segments because its completly disconnect to market changes. Apple is on his way to kill its strongest asset: the ecosystem. The solution are obvious for growth...

 

Apple needs to address all market segments for the sake of the ecosystem, they did it with the ipod, why cant they do it with smartphone and tablets?

 

Apple needs to take back the control of the high end market. IGZO screens, multiple screen sizes, mobile payments, ... They way they try to force feed one size fits all is pissing me off to the bone.

 

Apple needs to spread the ecosystem to new markets. Grats for the move in the car business. Grats on iRadio. But WTF are they waiting for to enter the TV, gaming, wearable devices, home appliances (third party hardware than talks to the ecosystem), ... markets.  And there cloud services could be improve a lot.

 

Some markets should have been enter YEARS ago, Apple is SO late its going to offer "me to" products now. The only way they can get away with it now is to truely innovate in those markets.

 

If the only things in the pipeline are the iphone 5s, a retina mini and a thinner ipad, I am afraid things are going to get pretty ugly.

 

Apple definitively still leads high end market and they haven't disconnect to market changes. There is perhaps only one characteristic or functionality, where they most probably don't have product portfolio that would completely fit the market needs at the time. I think other companies are making much more nonsense in that sense, however I am displeased with believing Apple lost some opportunities.

 

TV, gaming and wearable devices will be a game changer when Apple releases product in those areas. Everything I have seen up to now makes no sense of whatsoever and sales confirms it.  

 

Things on Wall Street can get ugly, of course, because WS is at the edge of being criminal enterprise. What they are doing right now is deliberately downplaying Apple despite of tremendous results in existing areas that will not vane in the future as well, while waiting for "next big thing" to inflate AAPL bubble again. In the mean time the pour the money to GOOG. Where do you think they will take money from and pour it to AAPL, when Apple releases for example iTV?

 

So, I know Apple wasn't able to address market with proper product line for undisclosed reasons. THey know it as well. However, WS crap has nothing to do with it. They are above everybody, they will do what they want, they run the world....


Edited by poksi - 6/26/13 at 9:23pm
post #95 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

They own 60% of the App revenues for now. They owned more last year. You do the math.
WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. UTTERLY AND TOTALLY WRONG . And this bugs me. Because the history of Apple is simple. Doing what you suggest almost killed them, not what you think nearly killed them. You have mixed up cause and consequence.

Apple survived the 80's and went into the 90's as other companies collapsed - Microsoft and IBM excepted of course - with about 12% of the Market. Not much lower than the world iPhone market share now. But profit share was much higher than 12% as they sold the high end stuff. I distinctly remember, as a teenager in a house with Mac equipment, my Dad making your argument. Apple was the most profitable computer company in the world and that was all that mattered. Actually platform size mattered.

It was Apple's decision to hold onto that profit share and high margins - which Steve Jobs acknowledged later on when he accused the company of being run by "salesmen in the 90's -" which continued to reduce market share year on year, although I am sure profits held up for a while. I am sure that usenet fans of Apple were crowing about profit share in 1992. Later in the late 90's after the very declining platform you seem to care less about saw massive developer migration to MS, Apple panicked and licenced the OS. When they were at about 3% of the market. And since nobody is calling for licensing that analogy is utterly bankrupt.

Pure BS! Sorry...because I am your dad's age and lived through it. The one thing you get right in that little re-write of history, is that the developers left the Mac for Windows. Well actually, they didn't leave or migrate, they specifically decided to develop for MS Windows because... THAT'S where the money was in the enterprise software business and games. Businesses at the time were still IBM shops for the most part with IBM compatibles. Apple didn't play so well in that environment, and they never went that route. They also left games on the table as well, concentrating on the graphic arts and printing industry. Which BTW at the time, was a "professional" niche to be sure, but we were willing to pay those "high" prices, considering traditional typesetting machines of the day cost like $50,000. Also don't forget that very few households had a PC until about the turn of the century, relatively speaking.
Quote:
Most importantly it was the actions of the early 90's, the seeking of profit and margins at the expense of market share which led to the near destruction of the platform and the company. The very stuff you want now.
If I had a say in the matter I'd like Apple to end world poverty, create endless world peace, and end cancer.

Apple tried to go the markeshare route with a wide assortment of Macs... and licensing of the OS... and it almost tanked them. Margins had nothing to do with it. Once again, it was because everybody had jumped on the Windows bandwagon... NOT... because it was better, but because MS did the right thing with pretty decent developer tools. Also don't forget that MS "allowed" Windows to be pirated to gain a lot of that marketshare... similar to drug dealers giving out samples.

This is not the PC "Wars" of the 90's... and is not a mobile "war" today.

If I was to remotely consider anything war-like, it would be what Samsung is doing to the rest of the Android alliance partners. Google is also on the losing side of the battle, since they still make more money from services on iOS than they do from the entire Android platform. Crazy that!

War analogies are something that Americans like to do with everything and anything. I was personally disappointed with SJ's use of "thermonuclear" to tell ya the truth. Coming from a pacifistic Buddhist... that was down-right shocking. Just because you're competitive, does not make you a war-monger. I have to agree though, SJ started the analogy this time 1embarassed.gif
Quote:
In the non fantasy realm - and nobody doubts there are other products to come in the iOS platform - we need the OS to be the first choice of developers, and that means more iOS devices of what ever sort - yes even for the "poor" in Europe or the 3rd world. That world will be middle income very soon anyway, and its better to get them early.

Middle income soon: you bet. They already aspire to own an iPhone now.... and when the time and financials are right for them, they will own one.

First choice of developers: Apple is and I don't see that changing soon... because it's where they make the money to continue developing. Simple.

Devices for the poor: why? They offer nothing to the developers... and in many cases, a Dev just porting an App to Android is asking for it to be pirated immediately, rather than some poor kid in China doing the dirty work. Android offers some decent stuff on the Google Play Store... HOWEVER... there are 500+ other app stores out there for Android, where Google and the Western developers receive squat! These demographics don't want Apple for the very REASON that you must have an Apple ID. Many of the carrier Androids actually do billing for Apps on the PAYG invoice... if and when someone wants, say WhatsApp. Apple will never allow that, nor should they.

Again... and it's been said here a dozen times: the people you want Apple to pander to DO NOT WANT TO PAY for Apps or anything else, nor do they want the Google Store or the App Store. Some philosophically, others because they can't.... and most because they get everything free somewhere else, most likely a regional pirate site and/or carrier app store.
Quote:
In reality Apple fans - who actually know the history - should be appalled by the tardiness in getting around to what came naturally to them with iPods, cover all bases once the high end is saturated, reduce prices on the main models as well, leave no price umbrella.

You do realize that iPods were also not the be-all and get-all in the "rest of the world"? They were over-expensive for most people just looking to move their ripped or Napstered collection to a portable MP3 player. People in the rest of the world did not buy their music on iTunes. The vast majority of them still don't.

Let's take Germany as an example. So Apple delivers a kick-ass inexpensive iPhone for only € 300,- carrier unlocked. Do you know I still would have trouble getting people onto it? Specifically those that trade their Apps and content with their friends, not to mention those as I've said above, need replaceable batteries such as students. BTW: a heck of a lot of students running around with SIII's here... so it's not about the price. They are close to if not equal to iPhone prices.

Actually, what I'm trying to get across here, is that it's NOT about price! It's about "features" that Apple will probably never make available on their phones, such as swappable SD cards or batteries. Add the big screen "advantage" and you're asking Apple to put out a device the likes of which they have never offered in the past... that they or the dev's make NO future income on... that is BETTER for some use-case scenarios than the iPhone 5.... and for €300,-???? What are you smoking?!?!

So until Apple makes the device above and also does a 180 on their iOS and product feature strategy... I would say... scratch the idea! They actually would be better off spending their efforts looking for a cure for cancer.


PS. You're really pushing it saying someone doesn't know their history here. I know it quite well, since I've been using Apple devices since the Lisa in HS, the Mac 6 months after it was announced, and have been integrating, troubleshooting and training people on them for well over 30 years. Ya know... just sayin' you should be careful there.....1smoking.gif
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post #96 of 103
dasanman69 View Post
Vorsos View Post

Obviously. He speaks for everyone here (note the "we") and only posts common knowledge that "everyone knows."

And you dare to ask the exalted one for supporting links? Nice try, troll.

Oh so you're another dummy that believes Apple has 95% market share? TS can go suck a duck, he's no longer a moderator.

 

[insert oblique reference to needing a sarcasm tag]

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post #97 of 103

 

 

Quote:
Pure BS! Sorry...because I am your dad's age and lived through it. The one thing you get right in that little re-write of history, is that the developers left the Mac for Windows. Well actually, they didn't leave or migrate, they specifically decided to develop for MS Windows because... THAT'S where the money was in the enterprise software business and games. Businesses at the time were still IBM shops for the most part with IBM compatibles. Apple didn't play so well in that environment, and they never went that route. They also left games on the table as well, concentrating on the graphic arts and printing industry. Which BTW at the time, was a "professional" niche to be sure, but we were willing to pay those "high" prices, considering traditional typesetting machines of the day cost like $50,000. Also don't forget that very few households had a PC until about the turn of the century, relatively speaking.

We both lived through it. Apple were never going to win the enterprise market but they could have won the home market, however in 1992 they were selling high end machines for $5000. 40Mhz of raw speed, though. That was when they should have reduced prices for the home market - todays "poor". The home market had, after all been big in the 1980's until it collapsed. And how would games be a thing to develop for it there was no home market? One existed, it was very high end, but Apple with a friendly OS should have targeted the middle income groups, not the rich, when Windows 1995 came out it was game over. 

 

And, as I said it was in the mid to but mainly late 90's when they started to produce too many models. See this graph here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Macintosh_models

 

But nobody is asking for 20 models, just 3-4 and cheaper. They had enough in 1992.

 

Quote:
Apple tried to go the markeshare route with a wide assortment of Macs... and licensing of the OS... and it almost tanked them. Margins had nothing to do with it. Once again, it was because everybody had jumped on the Windows bandwagon... NOT... because it was better, but because MS did the right thing with pretty decent developer tools. Also don't forget that MS "allowed" Windows to be pirated to gain a lot of that marketshare... similar to drug dealers giving out samples.

 

once again your timeline is wrong. They licensed in the late 90's when their market share had already dropped. That was stupid. The clear time to make inroads into the market was 1990-1994, with fewer cheaper models. By 1995, Apple Macintosh computers accounted for around 7% of the worldwide desktop computer market. Apple executives decided to launch an official clone program in order to expand Macintosh market penetration.

 

In short, too late. They should have tried to win market when they had a chance in the early 1990s.

 

Quote:

Middle income soon: you bet. They already aspire to own an iPhone now.... and when the time and financials are right for them, they will own one.

First choice of developers: Apple is and I don't see that changing soon... because it's where they make the money to continue developing. Simple.

And you are forgetting something else - Macs were the first choice of developers in the 1980's for many products, including MicroSoft's own products. Adobe. And so on. Better API, smaller but richer user base. Then they left. Can you think why?

 

Quote:
Devices for the poor: why? They offer nothing to the developers... and in many cases, a Dev just porting an App to Android is asking for it to be pirated immediately, rather than some poor kid in China doing the dirty work. Android offers some decent stuff on the Google Play Store... HOWEVER... there are 500+ other app stores out there for Android, where Google and the Western developers receive squat! These demographics don't want Apple for the very REASON that you must have an Apple ID. Many of the carrier Androids actually do billing for Apps on the PAYG invoice... if and when someone wants, say WhatsApp. Apple will never allow that, nor should they.

 I'll ignore the Americanocentric bias about "thieving furrieners"

 

By "poor" ( which I didn't user but lets go with it) I mean middle income in the developing world, and pretty much middle income in Europe too. Not that Americans are much richer than Europeans - in fact incomes have stalled in the US since 1972. The only reason Apple is winning in the US isn't because you are richer but you are subsidized by the carriers. If the entry level phone were $199 and the iPhone 5 $399 then we could talk. There are plenty of middle income groups in the rich and developing world not availing of iPhones because - absent of the subsidy - it is too expensive. The same would be true of the US were there no subsidy. As for the present day "poor" - Chinas wages are growing at 10% a year, that doubles every 7 years. Ignore that market and you are doomed.

 

Quote:
Actually, what I'm trying to get across here, is that it's NOT about price! It's about "features" that Apple will probably never make available on their phones, such as swappable SD cards or batteries. Add the big screen "advantage" and you're asking Apple to put out a device the likes of which they have never offered in the past... that they or the dev's make NO future income on... that is BETTER for some use-case scenarios than the iPhone 5.... and for €300,-???? What are you smoking?!?!

 

Its funny that Apple fans who oppose the "dilution of the brand" sound like Android apologists. Apple will never do well in Germany because of lack of swappable SD cards and batteries. What? Is that saying that Android does it right? Clearly ignoring the clear fact that Apple doesn't have these features in the US and has 40-50% of the market depending on which market share figures you trust.

 

The facts are simple. Apple is 50% in the US because it is cheaper in the US because of the higher subsidy. This proves the elasticity of the iPhone market. If Apple is not too late, and the Android system is not too entrenched, it has a chance to get there or thereabouts in rich countries, and maybe 50% overall,  and the time to do that is now.


Edited by asdasd - 6/27/13 at 5:36am
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post #98 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

@Asdasd , prove Apple had a high profit share in the early 90s. Sculley was trying to increase market share and profit share. He released numerous Mac models (various performa models, powermac models). He tried to make a price point umbrella but confused consumers. Soon they wereny selling and market share dwindled and profits dwindled. Enter Spindler in the mid 90s who wanted market share and licensed Mac OS failing to realize Apple made more money on its hardware. He failed.

My eldest brother had a PM7200, 2nd oldest had a Mac clone, I had a PM7500, youngest had a performa.

iOS is the platform and that includes iPads.

 

He failed for multiple reasons but more importantly it was too late. You play the segments game of a commoditised market BEFORE you lose all of youre market shares, not after.

post #99 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi View Post

 

Apple definitively still leads high end market and they haven't disconnect to market changes. There is perhaps only one characteristic or functionality, where they most probably don't have product portfolio that would completely fit the market needs at the time. I think other companies are making much more nonsense in that sense, however I am displeased with believing Apple lost some opportunities.

 

TV, gaming and wearable devices will be a game changer when Apple releases product in those areas. Everything I have seen up to now makes no sense of whatsoever and sales confirms it.  

 

Things on Wall Street can get ugly, of course, because WS is at the edge of being criminal enterprise. What they are doing right now is deliberately downplaying Apple despite of tremendous results in existing areas that will not vane in the future as well, while waiting for "next big thing" to inflate AAPL bubble again. In the mean time the pour the money to GOOG. Where do you think they will take money from and pour it to AAPL, when Apple releases for example iTV?

 

So, I know Apple wasn't able to address market with proper product line for undisclosed reasons. THey know it as well. However, WS crap has nothing to do with it. They are above everybody, they will do what they want, they run the world....

 

Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5.  So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.

 

Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me.  Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.

 

I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.


Edited by herbapou - 6/27/13 at 7:46am
post #100 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post


This is not the PC "Wars" of the 90's... and is not a mobile "war" today.

 

I dont agree, its the same thing all over again. The only difference now is its not too late yet. Any OS that cant maintain critical mass will lose its devs, then lose more market share in an infinite loop until only the fanboys remains or the company goes bankrupt.

 

On the plus side, Apple now is in more markets and as more $. So it wont died and could return at a later time. The stock on the other hand could collapse all the way down to mid 2000's level because it will always follow EPS.

post #101 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5.  So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.

Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me.  Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.

I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.

Why are you including both the GS3/GS4 for Sammy while comparing to just the 5? Fact: Apple sold 5MM iPhone 5s in one weekend.

Apple is not selling less units YOY. It's growth has slowed but raw units have not shrunk.

Omg, Apple hasn't introduced product for new markets? I remember when Jobs created markets every day if the week. WS aren't fanboys but they are gamblers.
post #102 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

 

Dont want to burst youre bubble but according to sales estimates (people here are going to denied them of course) Samsung is shipping more S3/S4 than the estimated sales of the iphone 5.  So, Samsung alone is beating Apple on the high end market on unit sales.

 

Apple is selling less units YoY in a growing market , how can fanboys still maintain everything is peachy is beyond me.  Well Wallstreet are not fanboys, sales are down, margins are downs while Apple is just standing still doing nothing for 7 months now. Stock is going down for a reason. To top if off Wall street is losing faith in Apple to innovate or enter new markets, because, well so far they are not.

 

I will personnaly keep my option leaps that are at a great lost in hopes I can get back some of the $, but you can bet that at break even at will get the hell out and I will never come back.

 

IF you count together S3 and S4 then you should count together iPhone 5 and 4S at least, if not 4 as well... So, Samsung is NOT outselling Apple in Apple's courtyard. However, I agree, share is falling, which I find normal.

 

While APple doesn't own technology in manufacturing, Samsung can do almost what pleases it. However, they do it poorly. They spray the market with sub-machinegun fire and while hitting many, most of them stay alive and can run off battlefield at any time. Apple on the other side is going in another extreme, firing with bolt-action sniper, taking out less, but every hit takes out. Smart way is to take assault rifle and hit and take out as much at the same time. Still, Apple was never "smart" in that sense, so the only thing we can expect from them are good products. SOmetimes this may hit the market like blockbuster when early adoption is on the way, sometimes not.

 

I still believe Apple will release some very good stuff in this year, but everybody knows it will not be the next big thing. That is why criminals in WS are downplaying AAPL and actually disregarding EPS or at least having special EPS criteria for Apple. Apple is company full of emotions and surrounded with emotions. While this may keep customer loyal, this is very non-constructive for the stock market, because criminals at WS are using emotions for stock manipulation. 

 

My current loss on AAPL is almost 30K and I found out a LOT about AAPL and WS just because of that. Bottom line: If I come down to 10K, I am out as well.

post #103 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

I dont agree, its the same thing all over again. The only difference now is its not too late yet. Any OS that cant maintain critical mass will lose its devs, then lose more market share in an infinite loop until only the fanboys remains or the company goes bankrupt.

On the plus side, Apple now is in more markets and as more $. So it wont died and could return at a later time. The stock on the other hand could collapse all the way down to mid 2000's level because it will always follow EPS.

No. It is not the same. You might want to check out some of the developers blogs since WWDC. They all seem to be really... REALLY enthused with iOS.

I also doubt very much if you can find even one serious iOS developer of even a middle of the road App, that has jumped to only developing for Android.

It also appears that Apple is paying out more and more to developers, thus I would think that there's still a lot of growth within the App store. While with Android, the majority of the developer payouts are going to those with ports from iOS apps.

You receive potatoes for your iOS app... and gravy from Android. I don't expect that to change any time soon in the Western app stores. The other 500+ Android stores? Who knows if any one is making money... and truthfully... who cares?
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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