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Pressure mounts on Japan's largest carrier as it still refuses to carry Apple's iPhone - Page 3

post #81 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

... I can't see how anyone can get anything useful out of Compass. ...

 

Really? You don't understand what a compass is useful for and you think that's interesting? Well, it is, but not in the way you think.

post #82 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

About anything in particular?  Do I need to use the same apps as everyone else, just to fit in and have a valid opinion in your eyes?

You are not the majority. Stating "some" users use Safari and Mail could not be further from the truth.
post #83 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

Doh!Coma is in denial that they are just a carrier.

Just like Apple was in denial that they were just a computer company when they decided to make the iPhone? We all know how that turned out. Are they the only one capable of creating a good user experience? Can a carrier put carrier specific apps in the app store? Is it much different than when a company hands out iPhones with it's proprietary software pre-installed?
Edited by Soloman - 7/6/13 at 10:34am
post #84 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I'll just assume you're being intentionally obtuse. It's been pointed out countless times, including in this thread, that the reason you can't delete them is because they are baked into the firmware, that they are baked into the firmware partly for historical reasons and, more importantly, a) because they provide services that other apps depend on, and b) they provide a minimally useful out of the box smartphone user experience without requiring a user to install additional apps.

If you're assuming I'm being intentionally obtuse then why I you bothering to explain this stuff to me.  As it is, I don't know what your point is.  I know all these things.  I'm saying that Apple should change these things to allow it to be different?  

 

Unbake them from the firmware.

Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted.

Enable deleting them.

 

That's what I'm asking for.  Maybe it's easy, maybe it's difficult, I don't know.  Probably varies between apps - I doubt there's much dependant on Voice Memos, Stocks or Weather.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

This isn't really that hard to understand, and the fact that you can point to others who apparently don't understand doesn't somehow make not understanding interesting. You might as well ask, "why can't I delete location services?" or, "why can't I delete WiFi networking?" Those are equally ignorant questions.

 

Location services and wi-fi networking can be turned off, and reside in Settings.app well out of the way.  It's not the same thing.

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post #85 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Really? You don't understand what a compass is useful for and you think that's interesting? Well, it is, but not in the way you think.

No idea what you're talking about.  Do you use Compass.app often?

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post #86 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


You are not the majority. Stating "some" users use Safari and Mail could not be further from the truth.

some  

/səm/
 
Pronoun
An unspecified number or amount of people or things

 

 

I don't use them, so it's clearly not all.  You use them so it's clearly not none.  I have no definitive information about where between those extremes the real number lies.  QED, "some."

 

Maybe "most" would be more precise, but I really can't be bothered with that level of pedantry.  Get over it.

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post #87 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

If you're assuming I'm being intentionally obtuse then why I you bothering to explain this stuff to me.  As it is, I don't know what your point is.  I know all these things.  I'm saying that Apple should change these things to allow it to be different?  

 

Unbake them from the firmware.

Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted.

Enable deleting them.

 

That's what I'm asking for.  Maybe it's easy, maybe it's difficult, I don't know.  Probably varies between apps - I doubt there's much dependant on Voice Memos, Stocks or Weather.

 

 

Location services and wi-fi networking can be turned off, and reside in Settings.app well out of the way.  It's not the same thing.

 

You seemed to have (intentionally) missed the part about their being there because other apps depend on them being there to provide services. And, it is the same thing, apps depend on the services, deleting them would break the behavior of many, if not most, other apps, just like removing location services and WiFi would.

 

So, maybe you aren't being obtuse, but that only leaves one other alternative.

post #88 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

No idea what you're talking about.  Do you use Compass.app often?

 

Yes, I do, it's a very handy app to have, if you know what a compass is for.

post #89 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

...it's a very handy app to have, if you know what a compass is for.

"And why are you returning your iPhone today?"
"I TRIED TO DRAW A *#$%^#* CIRCLE WITH IT AND IT WOULDN'T CIRCLE."

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #90 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

"And why are you returning your iPhone today?"
"I TRIED TO DRAW A *#$%^#* CIRCLE WITH IT AND IT WOULDN'T CIRCLE."

Wit's not your strong suit.
post #91 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


"And why are you returning your iPhone today?"
"I TRIED TO DRAW A *#$%^#* CIRCLE WITH IT AND IT WOULDN'T CIRCLE."

TS, I've got TONS of real life stories being in the computer reseller industry that make you laugh.

 

I worked at one large reseller and there was a female sales rep that knew nothing about technology, but her strengths were elsewhere (I don't need to further explain).

 

The Mac II had JUST been recently announced and they were talking about multitasking, etc.  She was talking to a customer and I was sitting right next to them so I couldn't help by overhear, but she was trying to tell the customer that the mac could have two people using the same computer at the same time since you could have two monitors connected to it.  I almost lost it.  I had to correct her on it and had to do it about the most eloquent way possible as to not piss her off in front of the customer.  


This was around the same time when some older woman was going to a training session at our office and they went to the show room playing around with the mouse because they've never seen one, and the cursor didn't move because they hit the edge of the table dragging the mouse and decided they needed to pick up the mouse and put it on the floor to get the cursor to move.  I almost lost it.  The older woman was being so befuddled, I couldn't help but show her how it worked and she realized how dumb her first idea was, but she laughed and thought it was the coolest thing she'd ever seen.

 

I used to talk to tech support people and a lot of the calls were solved by telling the customer to actually plug the computer in the wall and turn it on first(non-platform specific).  I don't know if it's the most popular problem, but it was back in the 80's.

post #92 of 120
It's quite possible to "delete" Apples apps without affecting the underlying system services, but it's ridiculous for any reason of space. The system services are already separate to the point that the apps themselves are just shells around them with UI for non-system service parts.

For example Maps is a shell around MapKit with UI for its alerts, bookmarks, and cards.

Safari is a system only version of UIWebView with bookmarks and tabs.

So trying to delete them for purposes of space is pretty insignificant. However hiding them is totally possible. Use system restrictions for some of that. Otherwise a JB is necessary. Apple could quite simply allow those apps to be hidden and that would suit almost everyone who wants to get rid of them. For all intents and purposes its the same thing.
post #93 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

You seemed to have (intentionally) missed the part about their being there because other apps depend on them being there to provide services. And, it is the same thing, apps depend on the services, deleting them would break the behavior of many, if not most, other apps, just like removing location services and WiFi would.

 

So, maybe you aren't being obtuse, but that only leaves one other alternative.

Did you not read this bit:

"Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted."

 

The registering of services also needs developing, as has been well documented by other commentators.  If an app offers to "Open in Safari" then it should also be able to open in iCab, or Chrome, or Opera.  Once that registering of apps for services works then deleting Safari (or iCab, or Chrome) should just remove the service option.  No problem.

 

If you're talking about something different then you'll need to explain more, because I don't know what dependencies you're talking about.

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post #94 of 120
I hope DoCoMo chokes on an Apple core. Apple should hold steadfast and not give in an inch. DoCoMo thinks those Android smartphones are so wonderful, well then good for them. I hope when all the consumers start raving about how good iOS 7 is, that DoCoMo cries tears of blood. They say the Galaxy S4 is better than the iPhone so let's see how well that claim holds up when SoftBank hits DoCoMo with an iPhone sledgehammer. No DoCoMo logos on the iPhone, please. Take your dumb pipe and shove it.
post #95 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Did you not read this bit:

"Unentangle hard-coded services to allow things to continue working if some system apps are deleted."

 

The registering of services also needs developing, as has been well documented by other commentators.  If an app offers to "Open in Safari" then it should also be able to open in iCab, or Chrome, or Opera.  Once that registering of apps for services works then deleting Safari (or iCab, or Chrome) should just remove the service option.  No problem.

 

If you're talking about something different then you'll need to explain more, because I don't know what dependencies you're talking about.

 

Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone. Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".

 

Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.

post #96 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

Wit's not your strong suit.

You saying this makes sense, given the level of intelligence of your other posts.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #97 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone. Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".

Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.

I can understand no carrier logos but what's the difference between a company that pre installs proprietary software on the iPhones it gives to it's employees and what NTT wants to do? It's just on a grander scale. Google Play does allow carrier specific apps but I'm guessing that the app store does not.
post #98 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Unfortunately for your point, people don't have iCab, Chrome or Opera on their phones out of the box. So, in your scenario, people would essentially have to spend a few hours browsing and downloading all the apps they need from the App Store before they could really do anything useful on their phone.

 

Not at all.  I'm not saying get rid of Safari, Mail and the others.  I'm just saying allow the user to delete them if they want.  And furthermore, give the user a services framework so that they can effectively replace them with other apps fulfilling similar functional purposes from the app store.  If the user wants to spend a few hours configuring their phone how they want it, with the apps they prefer, then allow them to.  Other users who want to work the Apple way have an experience straight out of the box.  Both are fine.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Or, say they download Chrome, delete Safari, then somehow for some reason delete Chrome, now, again, things aren't working so well. The same goes for Mail, and a number of other apps that are "baked in".

 

Don't see why that's a problem, the service of "Open in Safari" (or Chrome) or "Send Mail" (using Mail.app) simply becomes unavailable.  You can't browse the web without a browser, and you can't email without an email client.  Pretty simple.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yes, Apple could not include these apps, or not bake them in, but it's simply better that they do. The idea that there shouldn't be any "hard coded" (to use your term) services boils down to saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed functionality, which doesn't really make any sense.

 

I think you're arguing against a proposition that Apple should remove all apps from the iPhone.  I've never said anything like that, the idea is pretty ridiculous.  I've simply said that the user should be able to remove the apps that they don't want.  If that threatens to break hard-coded cross-app functionality then that functionality should be rewritten to be more flexible, since it's a fair bet that if I delete Mail.app I have no interest in seeing the option to Mail in a share sheet.

 

 

"Guaranteed functionality" is a nicer way of saying undeleteable bloatware from a different perspective.

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post #99 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

... You can't browse the web without a browser, and you can't email without an email client.  Pretty simple. ...

 

It is pretty simple, and that's why you can't delete them.

post #100 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

If the user wants to spend a few hours configuring their phone how they want it, with the apps they prefer, then allow them to.

That's not what Apple is about. End of discussion.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #101 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

It is pretty simple, and that's why you can't delete them.

 

You wouldn't actually be stuck if you deleted all web browsers, because you still have an app store full of browsers, and no one is suggesting that the user be able to delete the app store. There are good arguments for why apple should make it hard for the average user to delete safari. But there's no reason to panic if you find yourself without a browser.

post #102 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

That's not what Apple is about. End of discussion.

Sure they are. Do people look for and download dozens if not hundreds of apps instantaneously? No, it's usually a process that takes hours.
post #103 of 120

"not what Apple is about"

 

I must have imagined that time when I installed a third party app then.

 

I must have imagined that time when I changed my default browser on my Mac.

 

I must have imagined that time when I did just about anything ever.

 

Don't say such ridiculous things.

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post #104 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

I can understand no carrier logos but what's the difference between a company that pre installs proprietary software on the iPhones it gives to it's employees and what NTT wants to do? It's just on a grander scale. Google Play does allow carrier specific apps but I'm guessing that the app store does not.

App Store does allow third party carrier software. The difference is I don't think the majority of NTT users uses it. NTT just wants to piggy back on the iPhone's success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Not at all.  I'm not saying get rid of Safari, Mail and the others.  I'm just saying allow the user to delete them if they want.  And furthermore, give the user a services framework so that they can effectively replace them with other apps fulfilling similar functional purposes from the app store.

What if a novice accidentally deletes them? Do you tell them "tough sh1t?" They probably want to check email and surf the web. They don't care about the App Store so they wouldn't know where to search.
post #105 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

Sure they are. Do people look for and download dozens if not hundreds of apps instantaneously? No, it's usually a process that takes hours.

Read my posts before replying to them in the future.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #106 of 120
I missed the reason Apple "should" allow deletion of their apps? Seems to me they absolutely "should" keep control of their ecosystem. Allow third party browsers but keep the default goto as Safari. Allow map apps but keep the goto imaps. Why would Apple want to do it any differently?
post #107 of 120

They probably don't, which is why they haven't.  Doesn't stop some people wanting them to though.  You are free to delete bundled apps and change default apps on the Mac.  That's what I'd like on the iPhone.

 

Though this has all been a bit extrapolated from the original premise that some of the stock apps are little more than bloatware which few people use - I'm thinking mainly of Stocks, Weather, Compass and Voice Memos.  It would be nice if Apple allowed deletion of these.

 

Safari, Mail and Maps are a bit more complicated and political, clearly.

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post #108 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post


I can understand no carrier logos but what's the difference between a company that pre installs proprietary software on the iPhones it gives to it's employees and what NTT wants to do? It's just on a grander scale. Google Play does allow carrier specific apps but I'm guessing that the app store does not.

 

It's not just a grander scale, even though that's what your argument hinges on. In addition to a difference of degree, it's also a difference of kind. The apps that companies install for employee use are not part of the general smartphone experience, but are specific to the companies business.

 

And, yes, carrier specific apps exist today in the App Store; they aren't forbidding them from offering apps, just from taking over the entire user experience on the phone.

post #109 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

They probably don't, which is why they haven't.  Doesn't stop some people wanting them to though.  You are free to delete bundled apps and change default apps on the Mac.  That's what I'd like on the iPhone.

 

Though this has all been a bit extrapolated from the original premise that some of the stock apps are little more than bloatware which few people use - I'm thinking mainly of Stocks, Weather, Compass and Voice Memos.  It would be nice if Apple allowed deletion of these.

 

Safari, Mail and Maps are a bit more complicated and political, clearly.

 

It's all part of the same argument: The stock apps as a whole guarantee a distinct user experience out of the box, and belong in the firmware. Apple has other apps that are not part of that experience that can be downloaded and installed from the App Store, and deleted. But, as pointed out, you haven't made an argument as to why your personal desires would be a good thing for Apple or the majority of users.

post #110 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post


Sure they are. Do people look for and download dozens if not hundreds of apps instantaneously? No, it's usually a process that takes hours.

 

Which is exactly why certain apps ought to be baked into the firmware.

post #111 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


That's not what Apple is about. End of discussion.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

They probably don't, which is why they haven't.  Doesn't stop some people wanting them to though.  You are free to delete bundled apps and change default apps on the Mac.  That's what I'd like on the iPhone.

 

Though this has all been a bit extrapolated from the original premise that some of the stock apps are little more than bloatware which few people use - I'm thinking mainly of Stocks, Weather, Compass and Voice Memos.  It would be nice if Apple allowed deletion of these.

 

Safari, Mail and Maps are a bit more complicated and political, clearly.

If a stock app can't be deleted, then maybe just stick in a folder entitled junk i don't use and then put the folder on the last page, so you have your first pages of icons/folders with just the more important apps.  I'm constantly rearranging my icons to suit the shifts in what apps i use.  It doesn't take long to do it.

post #112 of 120

I'd argue that the Stocks app in particular probably isn't even ever opened by a significant portion of the user base - my family and friends have no interest in such things and no use for it.  What advantage does its perpetuity hold for them?  Being able to delete it offers a cleaner experience for them.

 

The same is broadly true to slightly varying degrees of Weather, Compass and Voice Memos.

 

Safari, Mail and Maps are more of a niche case.

 

 

I'd be of the opinion that Find My iPhone offers much more utility to the average user and should be part of the firmware.  But some people might not want that either, so they should have the option of deleting it.  This is just about options; I have no idea why you're so against it.

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post #113 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

 

If a stock app can't be deleted, then maybe just stick in a folder entitled junk i don't use and then put the folder on the last page, so you have your first pages of icons/folders with just the more important apps.  I'm constantly rearranging my icons to suit the shifts in what apps i use.  It doesn't take long to do it.

And yet you're "constantly" doing it?  Must be irritating as hell.  I know, because it's what I do do, and it annoys me.  Surely you can see the appeal in deleting them off the phone completely?  Why wouldn't you want that?

 

I'm finding this counter-argument completely bizarre.

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post #114 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I'd argue that ...

 

... The same is broadly true ...

 

There's a chasm between, "I'd argue that," and, "The same is broadly true." The former is idle speculation based on unsubstantiated opinion, the latter an assertion of fact. You haven't even strung a line across that chasm, let alone bridged it.

post #115 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

And yet you're "constantly" doing it?  Must be irritating as hell.  I know, because it's what I do do, and it annoys me.  Surely you can see the appeal in deleting them off the phone completely?  Why wouldn't you want that?

 

I'm finding this counter-argument completely bizarre.

 

That's because you chose to misinterpret "constantly" as referring to putting the apps he infrequently or never accesses rather than the other apps on the phone that he does. The rest of your post is based on that willful misinterpretation, so nothing more than a disingenuous attempt to score cheap points.

 

I'm beginning to see a trend with your "arguments".

post #116 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

There's a chasm between, "I'd argue that," and, "The same is broadly true." The former is idle speculation based on unsubstantiated opinion, the latter an assertion of fact. You haven't even strung a line across that chasm, let alone bridged it.

 

I'd argue that the same is broadly true.

 

Can you actually argue the point instead of pedantry?

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post #117 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

That's because you chose to misinterpret "constantly" as referring to putting the apps he infrequently or never accesses rather than the other apps on the phone that he does. The rest of your post is based on that willful misinterpretation, so nothing more than a disingenuous attempt to score cheap points.

 

I'm beginning to see a trend with your "arguments".

 

I actually misread his post.  Apologies for that.

 

But beyond the misunderstanding of the first two sentences, I'd stand by the rest of the post.

 

What trend?  Enlighten me.

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post #118 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

It's not just a grander scale, even though that's what your argument hinges on. In addition to a difference of degree, it's also a difference of kind. The apps that companies install for employee use are not part of the general smartphone experience, but are specific to the companies business.

And, yes, carrier specific apps exist today in the App Store; they aren't forbidding them from offering apps, just from taking over the entire user experience on the phone.

And the apps would specific to NTT's company business. That app would do you absolutely no good by being in the app store.
post #119 of 120
But Apple doesn't want you to delete the Apps otherwise they would let you. They want you using Safari for search so they make money. They want you using iMaps for search so they make money. Weather, stocks? Probably making them money from yahoo. If they are there you might use them.. Or in the case of safari or maps, probably will use them, even if you prefer another app, because its set as default. Even if its only occasionally that's a dime here and there a billion extra times.
post #120 of 120
Guam is a territory of the United States and follows all U.S. laws.

In 2006, Docomo entered the Guam wireless market by purchasing a local company called GuamCell.

In 2009, the Guam Telephone Authority (GTA) a private company who had obtained the rights to selling the iPhone on Guam, announced that they would make the iPhone 3GS available in December.

On the day that GTA announced that the iPhone was available, Docomo came out with full page ads in the local newspaper announcing that they also had iPhones for sale. After some inquiries, it turned out that they were selling unlocked grey market units and also confirmed that they were not authorized to sell the iPhone. This went on for several weeks before they stopped. I'm not sure of the reason why they stopped. Was it just a one-time deal to steal away the thunder of the authorized vendor?

I've always wondered whether this was sanctioned by Docomo Japan. It seemed like such a curious thing to do when they refused to sell the iPhone in Japan.

To this day, Docomo Guam has never sold the iPhone again.
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