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Editorial: Apple, Google and the failure of Android's open - Page 3

post #81 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

Ugh, wrong on so many counts...

I'm old enough to remember CP/M: it wasn't open, it was the product of Digital Research and MS-DOS was a fairly shameless clone of it, sort of like Linux is a Unix clone.

Second: NeXT was as "open" as Apple, the reason for NeXT's failure is the same as the reason for OS X' success: lack/existence of an installed base; the reason why OSX is not called NeXTstep is simply that Jobs needed to fool enough Apple fan boys into believing that it's a new version of Mac OS rather than the introduction of a new OS called NeXTstep.
If you really want to know what OS you're running look at the Darwin version numbers which correspond to the equivalent NeXTstep release.
NeXTstep was chock-full of proprietary technology, e.g. DPS, RenderMan, etc.
Pretty much the opposite of open except at the lowest levels at which OSX is open, too.

I could go on, but I rather have a beer on a Saturday night than waste me time educating the clueless...

 

Dude, read the article again:

 

  • OpenStep was the variant that Jobs proposed to the big vendors using Unix, and not NeXTStep which was proprietary to the NeXT hardware.

 

  • Surely you also recall that post-Jobs Apple successfully sued NeXT, preventing the company from offering anything in the price range of the Mac, which severely hindered its take-up owing to the steep startup price forced on it. So lack of installed base as cause of failure is correct, but there were additional causative factors.

 

  • MS-DOS wasn't a "shameless clone" of CP/M: Digital Research foolishly sold its rights to Microsoft, who in their wisdom merely licensed MS-DOS to IBM. The ensuing profit is the stuff of Silicon Valley legend.

 

The article, contrary to being cluelessly illiterate, implies quite clearly that the open (or cross-platform to be clearer) aspects of technology are much harder to monetize without being crafted with proprietary extensions designed to drive revenue accurately in the direction of the vendor, generating profits.

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
post #82 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

Ugh, wrong on so many counts...

I'm old enough to remember CP/M: it wasn't open, it was the product of Digital Research and MS-DOS was a fairly shameless clone of it, sort of like Linux is a Unix clone.

Second: NeXT was as "open" as Apple, the reason for NeXT's failure is the same as the reason for OS X' success: lack/existence of an installed base; the reason why OSX is not called NeXTstep is simply that Jobs needed to fool enough Apple fan boys into believing that it's a new version of Mac OS rather than the introduction of a new OS called NeXTstep.
If you really want to know what OS you're running look at the Darwin version numbers which correspond to the equivalent NeXTstep release.
NeXTstep was chock-full of proprietary technology, e.g. DPS, RenderMan, etc.
Pretty much the opposite of open except at the lowest levels at which OSX is open, too.

I could go on, but I rather have a beer on a Saturday night than waste me time educating the clueless...

You seem to be caught up on this word OPEN and implying I said something different.  There are various definitions of the word OPEN when it comes to this stuff. Someone can take an OPEN SOURCE Kernel and create and OS that is only allowed (CLOSED) to be used on one vendor's hardware as in the case of Apple currently, but some have hacked it to run on generic PCs, but they just hacked the installation process, but Apple did release DARWIN as Open Source Code, but it wasn't the full version of OS X as it had certain code not in it.

 

NeXT originally ran only on NeXT hardware (CLOSED architecture), but it was ALSO based on an OPEN SOURCE KERNEL, they also eventually licensed it to other X86 vendors (Open architecture) similar to how Microsoft licenses Windows to run on an HP PC.


Windows is a CLOSED KERNEL and it's proprietary source code. It's actually kind of a closed because you have to have a license that you have to pay for in order to run it, but you can run in clone PCs, but you STILL have to PAY for the license.  They did open it up to be able to run on various processors, which older versions of Windows only ran on X86.  But from a licensing point of view, it's actually closed since you have to pay for the licensing, even though some will install it without paying for it, which in that case is illegal.  They do the same thing with OS X, but OS X is only meant LEGALLY for Mac hardware. Same with iOS.

 

CP/M was licensed to run on a variety of vendor's hardware including a variety of processors which takes a OS with a proprietary kernel and then creates and OPEN ARCHITECTURE TO BE LICENSED to others for a fee, which is what companies like Altair, Kaypro, Osborne, Microsoft (CP/M card), etc.  DR went out of business and they've changed it to be a more BSD-LIKE kernel, and its now out in the open. So some would view it as OPEN in that it could be run on a variety of hardware with a variety of vendors, but it was still not FREE.

 

My suggestion is understand the different ways something can be open or closed, based on kernels that can based on OPEN SOURCE or PROPRIETARY, commercially sold, etc..  Go to Wikipedia and look up what NeXT, Digital Research, etc.

 

Just to be VERY clear, there are always and will always be pros and cons to EVERY Platform whether it's open source, proprietary kernel, source code, open architecture, etc., etc. etc.  Just because Android is Open Source, doesn't mean it's better than IOS, or anyone else's OS.  It's just who has permission to modify or not modify, put on what hardware, who supports it, what's legal, illegal, etc. etc. etc.

 

In some ways Open Source can be good, but in a LOT of ways, it can be seen as bad.  If there is no mainstream applications that businesses, people want to use on a specific OS, then the OS is worthless since there's nothing to run on it that is considered a good application.  NeXT was a cool OS in its day, very advanced in a lot of ways and back then there were some pretty cool apps one could buy, but, they didn't have wide mainstream appeal from the most popular app developers, they were expensive, NeXT was small and didn't have wide distribution, etc., but it is what they later changed to become OS X and then stripped down as iOS. They changed the kernel, and other attributes of it, but kept Objective C and other aspects of the development software which has evolved into what X-CODE, etc is all about.   But in it's day, it has a spreadsheet that was actually far superior to Excel, but Excel was mainstream on both Mac and PC, and Microsoft didn't want to write a version for NeXT, probably because they didn't have enough install base.  Kind of a chicken or the egg concept.  But it has some pretty cool features.  NeXTSTEP evolved into OpenSTEP with Sun.  So Sun is an evolved, kinda version of NeXT in some respects.  Again, I'm going by a lot of things from memory and light reading to get refreshed, but go to WIkipedia on each and read up on them if you are interested.


But please don't confuse the issue by not comprehending what I said. 

post #83 of 310

DED on arrival.

 

You could create a train of logic and argue that the purpose of life is to create shit, by picking the right criteria.
 

You want to know the biggest open source project of all time?

 

Knowledge.

 

Pity it's been such a failure with so few monetary rewards.

post #84 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


So Google could steal it properly, unlike everything else.

'Course they managed to screw it up anyway.

 

You can't steal something that's given away freely to everyone.

post #85 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post


 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Microsoft.

They really have no fucking clue these days.

Stop trying to copy the hardware.

It ain't that.

Stop trying to copy to software.

It ain't that.

Copy Apple's philosophies.
post #86 of 310

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

I don't know if Google has been all about profit. Maybe they just want to elevate the level of technology out in the world. In other words - be good. Google Glass is a good example of that.
 

Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

 

I read Mac Tel's post as subtle sarcasm, even though the /S hasn't been deployed. Also, "successful" is valid, "winning" maybe not, but clearly he did not use the latter word and thus he is neither refuting nor agreeing with the article, merely making his own valid statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

If he's being sarcasm then more power to him. If not, then the bolded part was incredibly naive.

 

On that I agree with you 100%

post #87 of 310
WIndows Vs Open is more Windows Vs Unix.
The difference between Windows and Unix = Unix works, its scalable and have zero viruses/"server grade security".

If closed was better, then Windows Phone should do much better, also Windows on ARM.

Windows simply could not fit the GUI/Power requirement in a post PC world.
post #88 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Okay, I'll ask. You answer with specific projects without which these things could not have been made.

Steven Johnson, author of the seminal book Interface Culture,

“For starters, the Internet and the Web would instantly evaporate. Every Android smartphone, every iPad, iPhone and Mac would go dark. A massive section of our energy infrastructure would cease to function. The global stock markets would go offline for weeks, if not longer. Planes would drop out of the sky. It would be an event on the scale of a world war or a pandemic.”

iPhone users need to do go to into General > about > legal notices on an iPhone. Among the items listed are multiple open source GPL components. The legal notices also identify Ted T'so, a well known Linux kernel developers for his code as well.

iOS developers launched nearly 2,500 open source projects for Apple's mobile platform in 2012, a 32 percent increase year over year, which isn't half bad when you consider that the Apple App Store isn't particularly friendly towards open source apps.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #89 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

ITunes was NOT originally for organising ripped music onto iPods.

How soon YOU forget!

Yeah, you could also listen to your ripped music. 1tongue.gif
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #90 of 310
Erm... Your claim: "Sun ... copied the most valuable concepts of the OpenStep specification to deliver Java" is news to me, and a quick search did not corroborate. Citation needed.

Otherwise, if you define success by making money, free tends to fail. Yup.
post #91 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyThePirate View Post

Great timing AI. I'm sitting by the pool, just popped open a Shiner (beer), and now settling in for what I'm expecting will be another great read..

I'm not sure how anybody can read the nonsense that DED posts. Like many other instance I get two or three paragraphs into the article and realize you can not fix stupidity.
post #92 of 310
The big problem with this whole article is that it is pure nonsense. Apple is more "open" than probably any other big tech company out there. They have piloted LLVM and CLang to an enviable position in a few years. This in and of itself is a huge undertaking with contributors world wide. Then you have web kit. OpenCL was driven by Apple to an industry standard. It is Apple engineers that develop and maintain CUPs, the UNIX printing standard. Apple distributes its OS with open solutions like SQLIte, Python and others. Further Apple promotes the use of standardized languages like C/ C++ along side Objective C, nothing half assed like dot net. Frankly the BSD community has folded much of Apples technology back into BSD. Beyond all of that Apple has become most forthcoming with developer support to make sure they have fresh software available for their platforms.

In other words the whole premise of the article is bull crap.

The problem with many people is that they confuse security with a platform that isn't open. This isn't really the case, the security and vetting that Apple goes through has made a positive impact on their devices and stands in stark contrast to the unsecured platforms like Android. Some may find it problematic that Apple takes a cut of apps sales revenue and forces App Store use on IOS hardware. However this is balanced by a massive amount of software they distribute for free. What does this do for me? Well it means that every time I reach into my pocket for my iPhone it works.
post #93 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

I don't know if Google has been all about profit. Maybe they just want to elevate the level of technology out in the world. In other words - be good. Google Glass is a good example of that.

Nonsense. Google is certainly interested in profits.

Every company has a strategy for how to create profits. For Apple, the strategy is "we'll create insanely great products that lead to incredible customer delight". For Google, the strategy is "we'll insert ourselves everywhere to harvest every bit of personal information we can so that we can sell massive amounts of advertising". To that end, they couldn't care less whether a technology is exciting or innovative. Whichever technology sells the most ads is the best choice for them. Given the choice between an incredibly advanced technology which doesn't sell many ads and an older technology which sells tons of ads, the latter is the route they would go (if they had to make a choice - of course they have the resources to invest in things that MIGHT lead to future revenues, as well).

Google Glass is one more tool toward that objective. It is therefore well within Google's strategy of increasing their advertising revenues. Watch, however, as it becomes more and more ad-driven as it evolves.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #94 of 310
There is no failure of open. Open is a great way for devs to get started. Free, great knowledgeable hacker/geek support community, etc. However, no business or individual worth their salt is going to be able to rely on products, services, ecosystems, apps etc that are not supported by a dedicated well funded team. There is a reason why Apple are killing Blackberry, and beyond usability, it is because they are increasingly trusted in a corporate environment. And that is because they have the money to pay for employees to focus on security, reliability etc.
post #95 of 310
There is no failure of open. Open is a great way for devs to get started. Free, great knowledgeable hacker/geek support community, etc. However, no business or individual worth their salt is going to be able to rely on products, services, ecosystems, apps etc that are not supported by a dedicated well funded team. There is a reason why Apple are killing Blackberry, and beyond usability, it is because they are increasingly trusted in a corporate environment. And that is because they have the money to pay for employees to focus on security, reliability etc.
post #96 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

 

I'll start with the easy one.  Where would those products be without the Internet?  You do realize a humungous portion of the Internet runs on open source software, right?

 

I'm not sure I see where the disagreement is coming from.  Are you suggesting that open source projects haven't helped to move the world forward?

 

Actually, most of the Internet runs on Cisco and Juniper routers. And HTTP/TCP/IP isn't "open source", it's an "open standard", as is HTML.

 

But, no doubt you were referring to all the LAMP servers out there, like the one's Google uses. Oh, wait, Google doesn't use LAMP servers, do they? Nor do a lot of other companies. But, maybe you meant all that "open source" code running search algorithms at Google or that Amazon runs their store with. What? That stuff isn't open source either? (Actually, in fairness, I think Google has built more software that it distributes over the internet using "open source" software than it admits. In fact, I think they are in violation of numerous open source licenses by not making the source code for that software available to users.)

 

Sure, there are actually a lot of LAMP servers on the internet, but even those, to do something useful, are running proprietary software on top of LAMP. Even Android is just a barely useful open source layer with all the important stuff in proprietary layers on top of that. Yes, open source software has become widely used in many Internet applications, it's a useful foundation for a lot of important work, but let's not kid ourselves, most of the really important stuff isn't actually open source.

 

And, while we're at it, let's not get confused about the terms 'open source' and 'open standards' and start acting like they're the same thing. (Because, historically, in these forums, people seem to have a lot of trouble keeping that fact straight.)

post #97 of 310
I agree that Open is good if it's really Open, only I don't think Android or even Google is Open. How can an OS which is slaved to carriers be Open. If it's really Open every Android devices should get their updates when there is ones.
Open is just a marketing bullshit from Google, not unlike "Don't Be Evil".
Edited by matrix07 - 7/7/13 at 7:23am
post #98 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

Ugh, wrong on so many counts...


I'm old enough to remember CP/M: it wasn't open, it was the product of Digital Research and MS-DOS was a fairly shameless clone of it, sort of like Linux is a Unix clone.


Second: NeXT was as "open" as Apple, the reason for NeXT's failure is the same as the reason for OS X' success: lack/existence of an installed base; the reason why OSX is not called NeXTstep is simply that Jobs needed to fool enough Apple fan boys into believing that it's a new version of Mac OS rather than the introduction of a new OS called NeXTstep.

If you really want to know what OS you're running look at the Darwin version numbers which correspond to the equivalent NeXTstep release.

NeXTstep was chock-full of proprietary technology, e.g. DPS, RenderMan, etc.

Pretty much the opposite of open except at the lowest levels at which OSX is open, too.


I could go on, but I rather have a beer on a Saturday night than waste me time educating the clueless...

Dude, read the article again:
  • OpenStep was the variant that Jobs proposed to the big vendors using Unix, and not NeXTStep which was proprietary to the NeXT hardware.

OpenStep was two things with one name:

a) a specification just like Posix, that was even submitted to some open standards committee. That's what GNUStep, OpenStep for Solaris, etc. was based on. Each of these OpenStep implementations was independent and just implemented the same API. OpenStep on SUN had about as little to do with OpenStep as shipped by NeXT as Linux and UNIX, which share POSIX APIs, but not the code that implements it. SUN's implementation of OpenStep was horrible and slow, and burdened by SUN's choice of windowing system that didn't play well with DPS (Display PostScript for the uninitiated).

b) a product sold by NeXT which was essentially NeXTSTEP 4.0. It was the same NeXTSTEP with a updated, modernized API, but based on the same principles as the previous NeXTSTEP APIs. The reason why even to this day in Cocoa you'll find many "NS" and "NX" prefixes, is because they all stand for NextStep and NeXt.
Much like Apple introduced ObjectiveC 2.0 and introduced ARC, etc. so the step from NeXTSTEP 3.3 to OpenStep 4.0 was in essence an API overhaul and clean-up.

What is known now as Cocoa and Foundation are revisions of OpenStep.

Been there starting 1989, done that, got the T-shirts and various NeXT hardware to prove it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

  • Surely you also recall that post-Jobs Apple successfully sued NeXT, preventing the company from offering anything in the price range of the Mac, which severely hindered its take-up owing to the steep startup price forced on it. So lack of installed base as cause of failure is correct, but there were additional causative factors.

Exactly. The NeXT was only available to higher-ed and developers for a long time (I think 5 years after Jobs left Apple was the time specified in the settlement), which is why I had to jump through hoops to get a NeXTcube at the time.
NeXT's failure had just about nothing to do with being "open" or "closed" regardless of the definition employed, but just about everything with price levels, non-compete agreements, and network effects (aka chicken and egg problem, users not buying for lack of software, and software not being developed for lack of users).
What made NeXTSTEP successful at Apple in the name of OS X was

a) fooling people with the name "Mac OS X" as if it were a better version of "Mac OS 9", when in reality it was a totally new OS

b) a backwards compatibility environment that allowed running old-style Mac software

c) a backwards compatibility API that allowed lazy developers to port their software in a quick and dirty way to the new OS (aka Carbon).
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

  • MS-DOS wasn't a "shameless clone" of CP/M: Digital Research foolishly sold its rights to Microsoft, who in their wisdom merely licensed MS-DOS to IBM. The ensuing profit is the stuff of Silicon Valley legend.

Not quite true. The story is, that IBM wanted to license CP/M-86 for their PCs. But the CEO of DR "went flying" instead of accommodating the IBM execs, which were so pissed that a small company like DR would not bow to the almighty IBM when it came to making a business appointment, so they went to Microsoft in revenge.
Microsoft bought a CP/M clone called QDOS (which stood for Quick'n Dirty OS) which some hacker had written to avoid having to buy CP/M. That's what they sold to IBM as MS-DOS. They later paid some sort of settlement to DR to avoid a lawsuit, but DR at the time didn't sell anything to Microsoft, heck, the products were for sale in parallel for quite some time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post


The article, contrary to being cluelessly illiterate, implies quite clearly that the open (or cross-platform to be clearer) aspects of technology are much harder to monetize without being crafted with proprietary extensions designed to drive revenue accurately in the direction of the vendor, generating profits.

The article uses varying and inconsistent concepts of "open" and "closed", randomly mixing open specs, open source, open licensing.
Adroid e.g. isn't open, there is not a single open mobile platform, except for OpenMoko which isn't anymore, because none of the current platforms give the user control over the device without "jailbreaking" or "rooting". All of the significant Smartphone OS contenders are in all relevant aspects closed systems, although both Android and iOS use a lot of open source code in creating their closed platform.

Android is openly licensed, but that makes it as little "open" as MS-Windows.
Edited by rcfa - 7/7/13 at 7:28am
post #99 of 310
It recently just sounds open allows for virus, and malware freely.
post #100 of 310

Nice read - especially the mostly-chronological set of episodes to reminisce to in support of the benefits of closed platform/systems.

 

The point I think that was mostly missed is that it doesn't matter (as much) who wins - but that different types of both 'open' and 'closed' exist. This eco-system, whether it be conflict, co-dependency, scavenging, or parasitical, is bigger because of the variety, the choice, the two (or more) sides. Different demographic groups in society, however you define them - economic, social, ideological - whatever (and that changes internally constantly), will demand different 'experiences' and then that will change and morph over time - but you need something to change into - a void or lack of choice (no matter how well designed) would hasten decline and even future development. So cheer that there exists people who will develop and champion one or the other. Apple's walled garden (or gilded cage, as many might see it) is appealing in so many ways, but only as much as it is because you can always go out into the wide west outside temporarily or to stay - and that there are people willing to pay for the exclusivity and other perks (likely) - and even more that might come in for the first time than there was before.

 

The jab at China was a bit weird seeing as they are likely to be the dominant and most successful economical model in the coming decades and generations due to the 'mostly closed' almost corporate nature of their system (communalism was the society's teenage pre-pubescent phase - confining but necessary). As they continue to build their own walled garden AND allow certain pockets of open chaos (known as capitalism) to co-exist and mingle, we will see that the economic 'freedom' that many countries aspire to ( which seems to manifest itself mostly as 'freedom from responsibility, freedom from duty, freedom from co-operation, freedom from cohesive vision') starts to become less important as those governments (and their societies in general) fail to respond to crises, provide its citizens a middle class standard of living, and no longer form a dominant economic super power position in the world. And don't think for a moment that these free-market pockets in China are spreading from their own 'goodness' momentum - they can be reigned in at any time if deemed contrary to the vision of the country - but for now, good.

With middling and B-level prospects, most economically 'wild west free market' societies tend to become complacent, which diminishes innovation - not bad, just retirement-like. Of course, the human rights abuses, tech stealing, and environmental inattention is outrageous, but it is not out of scale of most large American-style corporation practices - and will come in line with int'l values with increased citizen wealth and personal success - which i think is the real measure of a system's desirability and success. Combine that with China's openness to let more people travel and migrate abroad - and continually return and attract others - and you have the makings of a system that can actually deliver wealth to the citizens and keep them dynamic and productive. Not savoury to pro-free marketers.

 

Also, shocking that you dared to say 'free attracts lower value customers' to the readers here. Lower value customers? like: Lower class citizens? Fine, and likely true, but unnecessarily antagonistic.

post #101 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

I agree that Open is good if it's really Open, only that I don't think Android or even Google is Open. How can an OS which is slaved to carriers be Open. If it's really Open every Android devices should get their updates when there is ones.
Open is just a marketing bullshit from Google, not unlike "Don't Be Evil".

Being able to be 'slaved' can only happen if it is open. The updates are there to be had, it's up to the manufacturers and carriers to do it.
post #102 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by otbricki View Post

This is hilarious. Apple and everything it does is built on BSD. Between Linux and BSD you have 95% of all smart phones. Open completely dominates this industry.

iOS sure is open, huh¡ 1oyvey.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sreeram View Post

[post]

Shut up and go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadania View Post

Do you actually know anything about software?  Just curious...

Do you know anything about locks? 1tongue.gif

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #103 of 310
Outstanding editorial DED. I read every word.

Please update the AppleInsider app to function in landscape mode.

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Please update the AppleInsider app to function in landscape mode.

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post #104 of 310
Open source needs viable business models to succeed, otherwise you end up with dead projects all over Google Code / Sourceforge that no one maintains.

If a piece of software is good, it needs attention and if the developer has to support himself with another job, then the software is going to suffer due to lack of attention. The failing of open source is that people assume that other people are going to pitch in and help, but all that does is create 1) forks or 2) patches which don't work well together. It also requires scale, many people need to help, which means that even more people need to be using the software to begin with for developers to contribute.

Time is money, programmers need to eat. For $1-2 bucks an app, the Apple App Store is not for the rich by any stretch. Developers are compensated and they are motivated to create even better products. Love does not buy lunch! Love profit = great products!
post #105 of 310
When I once owned an Android phone I wouldn't pay for any apps because I knew my next phone would be an iPhone and I would start my collection there. The Android platform seemed like it could change at any time, like a big party of anyone coming and going as they please where iOS seems like a party of friends you can count on.
Great article again Daniel!
post #106 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

current as of April 2013, appleinsider is running on Linux with pages served up by Apache.  the site also uses JavaScript, jQuery and jQueryUI.  for HTTP compression, they are likely using gzip.  all of these six (6) things are open source.


that said, however, the article mentions -- in this very specific context -- success is based on monetary returns.

You forgot to mention that AI serves up Google Ads.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #107 of 310

To summarize the editorial:

 

Apple makes the most money, therefore Apple has won.

post #108 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

To summarize the editorial:

Apple makes the most money, therefore Apple has won.

What did they win?
post #109 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Open has been successful though. Android took the feature phone and buried it. Everyone has been better off with Android on the cheaper phones.

I don't know if Google has been all about profit. Maybe they just want to elevate the level of technology out in the world. In other words - be good. Google Glass is a good example of that.
 

 

be careful what you wish for.

 

1) your point "Everyone has been better off with Android on the cheaper phones"   is false on 2 points... 1) the TCO of a 'cheaper' phone to the global economy is something yet to modeled.   I agree it's pushed functionality down to a certain price point, but quality and likely, security/privacy is not necessary following.  PCs were great until you put them on the internet, then the cost of a PC went up 3X, with making software/drivers work, security, recovery, let alone the global cost of botted systems.   I would posit that you will see the same 'global degradation' of the internet with botted Android 2.x phones in a couple years.  2)  in 2 years, with 8 different major Android versions out there, is the tower of app babel good for developers, for consumers of apps?   Proving the negative... 'everyone' is not better off.

 

I will say it lowers the barrier of entry to iOS in a deferred 2-step path from dumb-toCheapAndroid-to_IOS, as a 'cheap' smart phone that 'sort of works' gets people to see the value of mobile computing... but the vast majority of people who have android phones appear not to use them for mobile (read web) surfing... so my guess that value is limited or very short term.

 

2) I Don't know if Google has been all about profit    No... It's about corporate survival.  Profit is a measure of survivability (But look at RIMM, it's most profitable quarters were after the iPhone was released, but their long term plan appeared to be utter chaos... so short term profit does not ensure long term viability), but google's play here is the very long game.  Just like Apple's play in the smart phone market was to be one of the big 3.  Google didn't want to elevate anything... they saw Apple (and Facebook) make explicit 'carve out' of their niche... ad-supported search.  If you obviate Google from the the search bar, or effectively put an 'app' in front of every Google monetized platform, Google dies as the smartphone/tablet eats all the growth in the internet access market.  By moving android in front of WinPhone (and MS/Nokia played that poorly) in the eyes of OEM's as a 'free/cheap' alternative, Google ensured they could influence 'how' people used the internet mobily, and not be cut off if Apple basically said, we have a better search tool, we have a better mapping tool, so let us use yours for free, or we will suck the life out of you.

 

I'm not saying what google did was Evil, I'm just saying there was no 'good' involved.  It's Business... Always Business.

 

Be Good was never about 'pushing premature technology to market'    Be Good was always do what's best for the owner of the data google is advertising/hosting/indexing and the consumer of google's who is accessing this data.  However, more and more, Be Good means 'Be good to your stockholders'   Not a bad thing, but a different thing than before.   As you see from the decisions around Wave and Reader, Google could easily just suck several billion in sales for google glass, and then drop the project completely, because they have greater long term profit potential in other projects.   Just saying.   Good is as Good does.

post #110 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

I don't know if Google has been all about profit. Maybe they just want to elevate the level of technology out in the world. In other words - be good. Google Glass is a good example of that.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Nonsense. Google is certainly interested in profits.

Every company has a strategy for how to create profits. For Apple, the strategy is "we'll create insanely great products that lead to incredible customer delight". For Google, the strategy is "we'll insert ourselves everywhere to harvest every bit of personal information we can so that we can sell massive amounts of advertising". To that end, they couldn't care less whether a technology is exciting or innovative. Whichever technology sells the most ads is the best choice for them. Given the choice between an incredibly advanced technology which doesn't sell many ads and an older technology which sells tons of ads, the latter is the route they would go (if they had to make a choice - of course they have the resources to invest in things that MIGHT lead to future revenues, as well).

Google Glass is one more tool toward that objective. It is therefore well within Google's strategy of increasing their advertising revenues. Watch, however, as it becomes more and more ad-driven as it evolves.

 

I most certainly did not post that statement; I called it sarcasm (as part of a multi-quote), as that's the only context in which that naive comment could ring true.

 

Google and the greater good are an oxymoron, an absolute contradiction in terms, just like "Military Intelligence" (tip of the hat to the peerless Marx Brothers for that last timeless quip!)

post #111 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

 

be careful what you wish for.

 

1) your point "Everyone has been better off with Android on the cheaper phones"   is false on 2 points... 1) the TCO of a 'cheaper' phone to the global economy is something yet to modeled.   I agree it's pushed functionality down to a certain price point, but quality and likely, security/privacy is not necessary following.  PCs were great until you put them on the internet, then the cost of a PC went up 3X, with making software/drivers work, security, recovery, let alone the global cost of botted systems.   I would posit that you will see the same 'global degradation' of the internet with botted Android 2.x phones in a couple years.  2)  in 2 years, with 8 different major Android versions out there, is the tower of app babel good for developers, for consumers of apps?   Proving the negative... 'everyone' is not better off.

 

I will say it lowers the barrier of entry to iOS in a deferred 2-step path from dumb-toCheapAndroid-to_IOS, as a 'cheap' smart phone that 'sort of works' gets people to see the value of mobile computing... but the vast majority of people who have android phones appear not to use them for mobile (read web) surfing... so my guess that value is limited or very short term.

 

2) I Don't know if Google has been all about profit    No... It's about corporate survival.  Profit is a measure of survivability (But look at RIMM, it's most profitable quarters were after the iPhone was released, but their long term plan appeared to be utter chaos... so short term profit does not ensure long term viability), but google's play here is the very long game.  Just like Apple's play in the smart phone market was to be one of the big 3.  Google didn't want to elevate anything... they saw Apple (and Facebook) make explicit 'carve out' of their niche... ad-supported search.  If you obviate Google from the the search bar, or effectively put an 'app' in front of every Google monetized platform, Google dies as the smartphone/tablet eats all the growth in the internet access market.  By moving android in front of WinPhone (and MS/Nokia played that poorly) in the eyes of OEM's as a 'free/cheap' alternative, Google ensured they could influence 'how' people used the internet mobily, and not be cut off if Apple basically said, we have a better search tool, we have a better mapping tool, so let us use yours for free, or we will suck the life out of you.

 

I'm not saying what google did was Evil, I'm just saying there was no 'good' involved.  It's Business... Always Business.

 

Be Good was never about 'pushing premature technology to market'    Be Good was always do what's best for the owner of the data google is advertising/hosting/indexing and the consumer of google's who is accessing this data.  However, more and more, Be Good means 'Be good to your stockholders'   Not a bad thing, but a different thing than before.   As you see from the decisions around Wave and Reader, Google could easily just suck several billion in sales for google glass, and then drop the project completely, because they have greater long term profit potential in other projects.   Just saying.   Good is as Good does.

 

 

A bone of contention with Google is that they derive their profits from ad clicks, ads being placed, and not by the profits based on hardware and software sales. So there is something sneaky to me about their business model.  I thought google was completely selfish in how they handled Flash.  Apple and Micrsoft said no to Flash because Flash was NOT good code.  It causes the user and ultimately the phone maker too many headaches, whether it be bad battery life, constant updating a plug-in, to security issues galore.  Why did Google keep Flash support? Because they wanted mobile users to watch YouTube videos, which Google owns, because the ad based videos are Flash.  Well, double edged sword so their desire to have Flash support was on the surface good, but underneath bad.  I thought it was in poor taste to know that a user's phone could be compromised because the company is more interested in profits because they don't make any from software and hardware sales.  I wish Google wasn't so reliant on making money from ad based revenue model.  Don't we have enough ads? That's what makes a product annoying to use. Thats why I hate listening/watching ad based radio and TV.   If Google can't make money by licensing a well designed, well supported OS where security is always a top priority that they license to others or have their own well designed hardware that they can make a profit from, then they shouldn't be in business. Then they are disruption from others that do a better job.  Yeah, they foster a lot of interesting features through the eco system, but those features aren't transferrable from one brand/model to another as those features are proprietary.  Apple was smart in doing these reciprocal patent deals with Microsoft and HTC. it gives both sides the ability to innovate and leverage each other's ideas.  Apple puts in and takes out of those deals, but they can improve their product without having to deal with lawsuits between either company.  Too bad Samsung and others don't want to share and do the same thing.  It would certainly put an end to the constant legal battles.

post #112 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by designguybrown View Post

  • Nice read - especially the mostly-chronological set of episodes to reminisce to in support of the benefits of closed platform/systems.

 

Nice rebuttals, to the extent that I feel inclined to answer some of them:

 

  • The jab at China was a bit weird seeing as they are likely to be the dominant and most successful economical model in the coming decades and generations...

 

It is sufficient to simply quote the article to show that it was neither weird nor a "jab", but a simile that had a bearing on the topic of the article:

"Saying that today's Samsung is successful because it is "open" with Android is like saying that today's China is successful because it is Communist. In reality, their recent successes are due to both having stepped away from communal planning and designs and toward proprietary, differentiated, private investment of capital".

 

  • Also, shocking that you dared to say 'free attracts lower value customers' to the readers here. Lower value customers? like: Lower class citizens? Fine, and likely true, but unnecessarily antagonistic.

There is no daring involved in stating hard facts: lower value customers want free but then again block ads, which to date is the only revenue model that can support free, whether it is apps or web content. Not antagonistic, but unpalatable, hence the terms "bitter truth" and "hard facts".

post #113 of 310
So by this argument, if 90% of phones run the open Android platform, but the remaining 10% of phones running closed software account for 100% of the income, that will be a failure of Open. If 99% of web content, mobile or otherwise, is free, but the 1% that is not free makes almost all of the profit, that's a failure of Open. If 95% of my life is spent consuming free products (like this article) on open platforms, yet the money I spend is concentrated in that remaining 5%, that's a failure of Open.

Perhaps if you define it right, that's true -- tautological and trivial, but true. But it misses the social reality by focussing exclusively on profit. The social reality is that an increasing percentage of what we see, do, and the platforms we do it on, is open. Perhaps money isn't the be all and end all gauge after all -- particularly for something that's free.
post #114 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The big problem with this whole article is that it is pure nonsense. Apple is more "open" than probably any other big tech company out there. They have piloted LLVM and CLang to an enviable position in a few years. This in and of itself is a huge undertaking with contributors world wide. Then you have web kit. OpenCL was driven by Apple to an industry standard. It is Apple engineers that develop and maintain CUPs, the UNIX printing standard. Apple distributes its OS with open solutions like SQLIte, Python and others. Further Apple promotes the use of standardized languages like C/ C++ along side Objective C, nothing half assed like dot net. Frankly the BSD community has folded much of Apples technology back into BSD. Beyond all of that Apple has become most forthcoming with developer support to make sure they have fresh software available for their platforms.

In other words the whole premise of the article is bull crap.

The problem with many people is that they confuse security with a platform that isn't open. This isn't really the case, the security and vetting that Apple goes through has made a positive impact on their devices and stands in stark contrast to the unsecured platforms like Android. Some may find it problematic that Apple takes a cut of apps sales revenue and forces App Store use on IOS hardware. However this is balanced by a massive amount of software they distribute for free. What does this do for me? Well it means that every time I reach into my pocket for my iPhone it works.

 

Your premise of the "premise of the article" is simply wrong. Either your reading comprehension is pretty terrible or you're trying to cloud issues by making a straw man argument about how great open source is. 

 

The article clearly mentions WebKit, and if you Google the web for LLVM, AI's DED article from 08 on the subject is in the top 5 hits. So don't trot out your education about how Apple is also using open source. The article also makes no connection between security and closed software, another strawman you erect to show your superior boxing skills. I'm sure there are some actual flaws in the article you could argue against; you don't need to invent your own.

 

The article makes it pretty clear that, if you're taking about "superiority," "market performance," "efficacious impact on the world/technology/culture" or anything along those lines, it's just silly to compare Google's copy of software being handed out to a bunch of visionless cloners who were making boring PCs a decade ago to a series of real products Apple is making, products that have defined the culture and changed how people act and think, from the iPad to iPhone to iPad.

 

Where is all the supposed innovation across all of the Android landscape? The most unique thing running Android is perhaps a SLR with a smartphone camera back, and that just doesn't seem like a great idea. Why not just attach a smartphone? What else has Android come up with apart from copies of the iPod, iPhone, iPad and Apple TV? The community should be able to devise a few really cool things that at least catch on, but instead they are churning out nothing but me-too copies.

 

 

Apple has leveraged open source software to do great things. It gave the world a third browser (rescuing some KHTML code that would never have gone anywhere otherwise), it has built a next-generation coding toolchain with LLVM, LLDB and Clang, it made *BSD relevant again and took advantage of really cool things the various *BSDs have created.

 

But Apple doesn't brag about having given away the most web browser engines the way Google brags about having deployed the most (yet most defective!) smartphone OS licenses. And having given away so much Android has not resulted in some sort of superior platform for development or deployment. Smells a lot like Linux on the desktop to me. 


Edited by Corrections - 7/7/13 at 11:02am
post #115 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

And people wonder why android fanboys are drawn to this site... If you go on androidcentral.com or XDA you rarely see any mention of apple.

 

They come here to tell Apple fans how much they appreciate this site's coverage of "other tech" even though they only care about "other tech". In other words, they come here to tell Apple fans how much better they are because they don't bury their heads in the sand, like apparently the rest of us do.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Open has been successful though. Android took the feature phone and buried it. Everyone has been better off with Android on the cheaper phones.

I don't know if Google has been all about profit. Maybe they just want to elevate the level of technology out in the world. In other words - be good. Google Glass is a good example of that.
 

 

Wow. And they call Apple users a cult. This notion that "Google = good" because they embrace open source and "elevate technology in the world" is just a starry-eyed rehashing of Google's "don't be evil" mantra, which you just regurgitated hook line and sinker. Throwing around the term "open source" is how Google elevates their image to the tech world, and that is, in my opinion, what DED's (otherwise meandering) article should have focused on. I've never thought of Glass as "an act of good" for the world. The Bill Gates Foundation's work is an act of good. Glass is just more tech.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #116 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent View Post

Of course, iPhone owners just go about enjoying their devices without ever mocking Android.

 

True. Most iPhone users I know would never visit this site. They're reading People Magazine or looking at apps to track their fitness goals. You know, they have a life. They do things. Android is just something they've heard about. Something to do with Google. Something on other phones. That creepy guy in the office was going from cubicle to cubicle showing off his new Samsung phone. It had a big screen and he was showing off all these apps. He wouldn't stop talking about it, like it was the most interesting thing in his life. Feign interest. Be polite. Maybe he'll go away. If not, there's always HR.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

Part of the problem with open source efforts such as Linux and Office clones is the shitty, nerdy interface. Great ideas, a lot of effort and hard to understand, complex interfaces. Check out Gimp, the open source alternative to Photoshop. It's very name means hobbled or a limp. Windows and panels galore...ugly, underlined menu names.

 

Apple's challenge is to stay ahead of Android in terms of ease of use and coolness. Many people can recognize and will pay for nicely designed stuff.

 

Linux and Office were designed at the intersection of Technology and Technology.

Apple sits at the intersection of Technology and Liberal Arts.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #117 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milford View Post

So by this argument, if 90% of phones run the open Android platform, but the remaining 10% of phones running closed software account for 100% of the income, that will be a failure of Open. If 99% of web content, mobile or otherwise, is free, but the 1% that is not free makes almost all of the profit, that's a failure of Open. If 95% of my life is spent consuming free products (like this article) on open platforms, yet the money I spend is concentrated in that remaining 5%, that's a failure of Open.

Perhaps if you define it right, that's true -- tautological and trivial, but true. But it misses the social reality by focussing exclusively on profit. The social reality is that an increasing percentage of what we see, do, and the platforms we do it on, is open. Perhaps money isn't the be all and end all gauge after all -- particularly for something that's free.

 

But isn't your comment is "tautological and trivial"? Come on, the reality is that Android is not a platform. It's a small platform of new Android 4.3 devices, another bucket of year or two old phones that will never be updated, and a majority of devices running Android 2.x that are holding back anything new. 

 

You can combine it all to say there is One Android with "a large percentage of units shipped!!" but that's disingenuous, and usage patterns and data show very clearly that nobody is buying Android apps and only a small percentage are using Android phones as smartphones (browser, etc). 

 

You're rejoicing that Android is free, but that's the problem. There's no business model for anyone but Google (who spreads some ads on a portion of the installed base) and some hardware makers that make cloner-style margins on cheap hardware that is abandoned immediately after the sale. No updates. 

 

That's the "social reality." Google's Android isn't making the world better, nicer, more advanced or more secure. It's just attempting to reverse the progress Apple has achieved, bringing smartphones back into the PC model of the late 1990s where there are ads all over, malware/spyware/viruses, and advancement is stagnant.

post #118 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

To summarize the editorial:

 

Apple makes the most money, therefore Apple has won.

 
What did they win?

 

Are you kidding?

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #119 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

What made NeXTSTEP successful at Apple in the name of OS X was

a) fooling people with the name "Mac OS X" as if it were a better version of "Mac OS 9", when in reality it was a totally new OS
b) a backwards compatibility environment that allowed running old-style Mac software
c) a backwards compatibility API that allowed lazy developers to port their software in a quick and dirty way to the new OS (aka Carbon).

 

Can't refute the facts in these assertions, but it must be said that was quite a feat to pull off successfully in the face of the apathy and Inertia of the big developers like Adobe, Quark and Microsoft, who were initially reluctant to dedicate resources to the OS change.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcfa View Post
Not quite true...
Microsoft bought a CP/M clone called QDOS (which stood for Quick'n Dirty OS) which some hacker had written to avoid having to buy CP/M. That's what they sold to IBM as MS-DOS. They later paid some sort of settlement to DR to avoid a lawsuit,

 

Dead right again (argh!). But I have read an account somewhere that there was (allegedly) a lawsuit that led to the settlement, in which the DR-DOS author Gary Kildall sensationally executed a four-key macro on an MS-DOS-equipped PC which brought up the DR-DOS copyright/disclaimer information on its display in the courtroom!

 

Originally Posted by rcfa View Post
The article uses varying and inconsistent concepts of "open" and "closed", randomly mixing open specs, open source, open licensing.
Android e.g. isn't open, there is not a single open mobile platform...

 

This inconsistency is at the heart of the silly reasoning that the article is trying hard to debunk - the mistaken ideas that Android is open and iOS closed, and that open wins every time etc. Talking about the oft-mentioned "walled garden" touted by the Android camp as a shortcoming of iOS, the Google apps (GMail etc) used in the Android eco-system for instance are mainly written in C, while 3rd party app coders are restricted to using Java, whereas Objective C is the default common to all Apple apps, default or 3rd party.

post #120 of 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


iOS sure is open, huh¡ 1oyvey.gif
 

 

iOS is built on BSD.  1smile.gif

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