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Verizon could owe Apple $14 billion off iPhone sales shortfall - Page 2

post #41 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleTechSpot View Post
I doubt anything comes of this but ultimately, Apple may demand the end of these incentives paid to sales staff that give Android and advantage while creating a disincentive to selling iPhones.

There is nothing Apple can do. They can't demand that other companies change their sales policies. As I said before I am sure Verizon and other carriers are fine that Samsung and others pay their sales reps perhaps several extra thousand a year in salary which means they have less need to raise their salary to keep them on staff. The only thing Apple can do if they are unhappy with this is to increase their own spiff. Unless you are independently wealthy and working as a sales rep as a hobby you would be crazy not to push a Galaxy S4 and make an extra $50 instead of pushing an iPhone 5 and making $10. I wish an actual Verizon or other rep could chime in with actual numbers on these spiffs.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicommrob View Post

Hey Verizon...

I'll buy two new iPhone 5's if you let me keep my unlimited data plan.

They already will allow this. You just have to pay full price for them. Or buy them off of Ebay or other sites for cheaper.

post #42 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

Verizon overestimated iphone sales?  How could that be?  hope iphone 5s can make it up in time.

We don't know the specifics of Verizon's commitment to Apple, so this whole story could just be headline grab-ass tactics.

However, when Verizon signed on with Apple back in 2011, Apple had no real smartphone competition, and the smartphone market had less overall saturation.
post #43 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

I suspect Moffett's analysis is simply faulty. We don't know what the Apple-Verizon agreement actually says, but I seriously doubt there's a scenario where VZ is writing a multi-billion dollar check to Apple for iPhones not ordered. There agreement almost certainly specifies what the effect of not meeting sales goals are that are less draconian (or Verizon would have been insane to agree to the deal).

 

The analysis also doesn't seem to take into account that the 2010 agreement might have been updated/ameneded, possibily several times, since it was first entred into. It's not like Verizon would let something like that sneak up on them without acting (ie, pushing more iPhones, discount pricing, renegotiate the contract, etc) and it's in the interest of both companies to maintain a good working relationship.
post #44 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleTechSpot View Post

I agree with others I doubt that Verizon signed on to sell the stated number of iPhones. I do however think that these telcos who have deals with Apple that state they must sell X number of iPhones in a given time frame should re-examine allowing sales people to receive spiffs (incentives) to sell Android phones. This seems to be in direct opposition to what is the best for the health of the overall company as well as distorting the market.
 
I doubt anything comes of this but ultimately, Apple may demand the end of these incentives paid to sales staff that give Android and advantage while creating a disincentive to selling iPhones.

Apple doesn't need to get involved.

It is really a problem of Verizon's own making.

If they want their employees to sell more iPhones, they can eliminate the spiffs or they can pay Apple a few Billion.

Their choice.

post #45 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

Apple doesn't need to get involved.

It is really a problem of Verizon's own making.

If they want their employees to sell more iPhones, they can eliminate the spiffs or they can pay Apple a few Billion.

Their choice.

I am sure the Verizon employees would be thrilled at making thousands less in salary a year. Verizon would never do that. Samsung and others are essentially subsidizing the salary of Verizon employees so why would Verizon stop that free cash flow to their employees they don't have to pay? 

 

If Apple wants these sales reps to push the iPhone as hard as Android phones then they need to match or at least increase their spiff. All sales reps will always try and make the most money possible and who can blame them. 

post #46 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by medicommrob View Post

Hey Verizon...

I'll buy two new iPhone 5's if you let me keep my unlimited data plan.

Sure, that'll be $1,300, cash or charge?
post #47 of 94
It serves Verizon right by pushing all those "Android iPhones". My neighbor has one. I too am angry at Verizon for doing so because I am a stockholder in both companies and what they are doing is not serving their relationship with Apple at all. That is why Apple this fall is going to make it more likely that people will buy their iPhones at the Apple store.
post #48 of 94
Hey Verizon, try offering unlimited data plans for a reasonable price like your competition and see what happens to your iPhone sales.
post #49 of 94

If Apple will release these this year, it's a different story. Can they?

 

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post #50 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

I am sure the Verizon employees would be thrilled at making thousands less in salary a year. Verizon would never do that. Samsung and others are essentially subsidizing the salary of Verizon employees so why would Verizon stop that free cash flow to their employees they don't have to pay? 

If Apple wants these sales reps to push the iPhone as hard as Android phones then they need to match or at least increase their spiff. All sales reps will always try and make the most money possible and who can blame them. 

I'm sure Apple doesn't care what Verizon reps do. As long as management pays what the contract with Apple says. Let Verizon handle employee compensation for their own company. Maybe they could use a tip jar like all the coffe shops.
post #51 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

So that adds up to about what 20 million iPhones? Does that come off of the shipped or sold numbers then?

So now is Verizon going to have a BOG4 sale?

Maybe they could just...you know, stop trying to shove Android phones down people's throat when they come in for iPhones.

post #52 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post


I'm sure Apple doesn't care what Verizon reps do. As long as management pays what the contract with Apple says. Let Verizon handle employee compensation for their own company. Maybe they could use a tip jar like all the coffe shops.

Apple hasn't cared and that is true which is why Verizon reps are pushing Android and doing their absolute best to convince customers not to get an iPhone. I am not saying that is right it is simply a matter of money and common sense. No rep in their right mind would not try and sell a phone where they will make possibly $40 more off of that sale. You would be crazy not to push Android if it means $40 extra dollars then multiply that by a few dozen customers and you are talking big money. Perhaps Apple should care and consider increasing their spiff to match or at least come closer to what others are paying. Salespeople that derive a large part of their income off of commission can't be expected to push a product with no commission. 

 

This is all speculation on my part since they seem to keep spiffs a secret and I can't find any actual link. But from what I understand a galaxy phone can be worth an extra $50 and an iPhone can be from zero to $10. In that case which would you try and sell if you were a sales rep?

post #53 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

I suspect Moffett's analysis is simply faulty. We don't know what the Apple-Verizon agreement actually says, but I seriously doubt there's a scenario where VZ is writing a multi-billion dollar check to Apple for iPhones not ordered. There agreement almost certainly specifies what the effect of not meeting sales goals are that are less draconian (or Verizon would have been insane to agree to the deal).

 

I did not check, but if VZ in fact signed a purchase agreement like this (which are actually common place) they would have been required to disclose that fact in their 10K filing with the SEC. So if you really want to know if VZ and Apple has an iron clad deal with purchase liabilities as pointed out, go read the 10K from that time period.

 

Yes there is a scenario where they could pay out a check. The contract probably had a take or pay prevision in it. Now the reality of the situation would most likely have Apple and VZ renegotiating that prevision, but I double Apple would just let VZ with some future commitment for business of a payout now to remove any future liability.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

That's what they get for telling their retail employees to push Androids and turn people away from iPhones.

I have to agree and this is exactly what I thought when I read this, why sign a deal like this with Apple when they were also inking similar deals with Motorola and Samsung. You would think their management would be telling employee to push as many Iphones as possible. But it could have been a calculated risk too.

post #54 of 94

This is/has become a silly discussion, who cares what Verizon does and doesn't push. The customer should always do their research before buying, if you walk into a store to buy an iPhone and leave with a SG4, well you deserve what you got. I have bought all of my phones online for the last 5 years, I might stop and check out the new phones and maybe ask a question or two but that's it. 

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post #55 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

Apple hasn't cared and that is true which is why Verizon reps are pushing Android and doing their absolute best to convince customers not to get an iPhone. I am not saying that is right it is simply a matter of money and common sense. No rep in their right mind would not try and sell a phone where they will make possibly $40 more off of that sale. You would be crazy not to push Android if it means $40 extra dollars then multiply that by a few dozen customers and you are talking big money. Perhaps Apple should care and consider increasing their spiff to match or at least come closer to what others are paying. Salespeople that derive a large part of their income off of commission can't be expected to push a product with no commission. 

This is all speculation on my part since they seem to keep spiffs a secret and I can't find any actual link. But from what I understand a galaxy phone can be worth an extra $50 and an iPhone can be from zero to $10. In that case which would you try and sell if you were a sales rep?

Apple shouldn't care. If Verizon wants to squeeze its employees with a commission sales policy then they can deal with it. Which I'd guess is considered by apple when they wrote the contract. Just pay the agreed amount and you figure out your own screwy employee policies. I for one am very glad Apple doesn't play the commission game, it feels like a used car lot.
post #56 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post


Apple shouldn't care. If Verizon wants to squeeze its employees with a commission sales policy then they can deal with it. Which I'd guess is considered by apple when they wrote the contract. Just pay the agreed amount and you figure out your own screwy employee policies. I for one am very glad Apple doesn't play the commission game, it feels like a used car lot.

I agree that customers should do their homework before they ever walk into a store. I also think you can often get far better deals at places like Amazon, Best Buy, Radio Shack and others on a new iPhone over a carrier. But the reality is they don't and most are easily swayed by a good sales pitch.  I only think Apple should care if this is costing them big money and a substantial loss of revenue. This article and other recent ones seems to suggests iPhone sales could be a lot better so something is wrong or could be improved.  I have no idea how many lost sales they have due to spliffs. I know that this is not limited to Verizon, the same thing applies to AT&T, Sprint, and overseas carriers as well. 

post #57 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

I know that this is not limited to Verizon, the same thing applies to AT&T, Sprint, and overseas carriers as well. 

 

Swisscom does things a little different, when you first walk into the store and need help, there is a bright red metal ticket machine in the middle of the store. You pull the ticket and then wait till your number is called. The employees will then answer any questions you might have or ring the product up. They are all payed on salary, no commission, so there is no incentive for them to push any product over another, to them you are just a ticket number.

 

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post #58 of 94
same thing happened to me rnb - I'd love Verizon, they're very strong in my area, but the prices for just one phone were terribly unreasonable.

I ended up with Virgin Mobile.
post #59 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

I agree that customers should do their homework before they ever walk into a store. I also think you can often get far better deals at places like Amazon, Best Buy, Radio Shack and others on a new iPhone over a carrier. But the reality is they don't and most are easily swayed by a good sales pitch.  I only think Apple should care if this is costing them big money and a substantial loss of revenue. This article and other recent ones seems to suggests iPhone sales could be a lot better so something is wrong or could be improved.  I have no idea how many lost sales they have due to spliffs. I know that this is not limited to Verizon, the same thing applies to AT&T, Sprint, and overseas carriers as well. 

Maybe the solution is for one or more of the mobile companies to offer to be the place where customers can come and get their hands on different phones and get knowledgeable information without the bias of a commission sale. Apple is smart not to fall for for the "bribe our sales staff" trick. It's a useless distraction.

I'm sure "something is wrong or could be improved" at Apple as you said. There always seems to be. And it's usually headline news.
post #60 of 94

I doubt that Apple would insist on any substantial penalty payments from Verizon or any of the major carriers. Just imagine that this really happens. It would probably cost the President/CEO his job. It would have the almost inevitable effect that Verizon would (a) never enter into such a contract again (b) probably kill any subsidies, which are a loss-maker for the carriers and (c) it would set off a chain of reactions from all of the other carriers. They hate the Apple terms and conditions anyway, they see that there are increasingly reasonable alternatives for a large sector of the customer base and the "premium" value of the iPhone is much less than it was a couple of years ago. In the end that could devastate Apple and I am pretty sure that Apple is smart enough to see that possibility.
 

post #61 of 94

I suspect that this all has more to do with smartphone sales growth in general starting to level off.  Verizon might have negotiated the carriage deal with Apple on the assumption that smartphone sales growth would continue its exponential trajectory at least through next year.  They simply overprojected how the segment as a whole would perform.  Everyone knows that smartphone sales growth was going to slow down at some point, it was always a matter of when.  That's why the analysts are all in a panic state about Apple and now Samsung -- they would rather cry wolf when the fundamentals are still healthy, than keep recommending stock buys after the market expansion actually stops. 

 

With the sales staff, I know that most of the CE giants are very active with incentive programs for their retail partners, especially Samsung.  Everything from spiffs (cash and/or products) for sales reps, to "rent" payments for end cap placement or other favorable display space, co-advertising support (often in return for "minimum advertised price" guarantees), and in-store promotions with company reps.  This stuff is all behind-the-scenes and has no material impact on the customer, except in how it influences the sales process and product placement. 

 

Apple has has generally avoided (at least since Jobs' return) these long-standing practices, and that has the effect of pushing them down the totem pole with retail employees and store managers.  That was the primary reasoning for Apple opening their own retail stores -- they gain full control over the messaging and product placement, as well as the retail profit margin. 

 

Even if retail store staffers aren't officially told to favor other brands over Apple, they know that competing companies can often offer more incentives and favorable returns.  Apple is going to generate floor traffic, because they produce high demand, high quality products.  Sales reps won't say no to a customer that comes into the store looking to buy an Apple product -- that's an easy sale, and with phones, the sales reps also receive commissions on the two-year contracts.  But, if a customer is more undecided, or needs to take more of a sales rep's time, the employee in that situation would have more incentive to favor a competing product. From what I've heard, retail employees tend to like Apple products more than they like Apple the company. 

post #62 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yojimbo007 View Post

So verizon agreed to sell 70 million iphones in two years... (45billion/630)
No.
No.
The article is ambiguous/not clearly written. (That's something unusual for AI, eh? )

At the end of 2010, Verizon had commitments of $45 billion over the next three years.
Some (much?), but not all of that was to Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post

BOGOF iPhone 5S sale coming soon?
Never gonna happen.
post #63 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Emperor View Post

Maybe they could just...you know, stop trying to shove Android phones down people's throat when they come in for iPhones.

Maybe...but if you go to the used car dealership and ask for a Ford and drive away in a Dodge then its on you........you don't have to buy what you buy....

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post #64 of 94

Verizon's new "Share Everything" plans (and their elimination of individual plans) is precisely the reason why my wife and I didn't switch to Verizon from AT&T.  It was going to cost us around $40 more to get a similar plan on Verizon compared to what we currently had with AT&T.  AT&T wasn't so bad for me to be willing to pay close to $500 a year extra to have Verizon instead hence we've stayed with AT&T.  Getting unlimited voice minutes is practically worthless to us since we've only used more than 450 minutes in ONE month in the last 4 or 5 years.  Unlimited texts also isn't important to us considering we use iMessage for almost all of our messaging which is free.  So the possibility of having more reliable service in LTE areas and slower data speeds in more rural area essentially ensured we'd continue with AT&T.

post #65 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnb2 View Post

I'd be interested to know what impact Verizon's new "Share Everything" plans (and their elimination of individual plans) has had on sales. When Best Buy had their trade-in deal recently (which amounted to getting a free 16GB iPhone 5), I finally convinced my wife to upgrade from her ordered-on-the-first-day Verizon iPhone 4. Only problem: "Share Everything" would have dramatically increased her monthly bill, and there were no other options.

So, after talking it over, she moved to AT&T, and we're now on a Family Plan that saves us quite a bit over what we used to pay individually. "Share Everything" plans are a terrible deal for 1-2 phone households, and Verizon's insistence that everybody move to these plans definitely cost them a happy customer in our case.

We have 4 people on the Share Everything plan and it is $10 mire than 3 people on the AT&T family plan.
post #66 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post


Maybe the solution is for one or more of the mobile companies to offer to be the place where customers can come and get their hands on different phones and get knowledgeable information without the bias of a commission sale. Apple is smart not to fall for for the "bribe our sales staff" trick. It's a useless distraction.

I'm sure "something is wrong or could be improved" at Apple as you said. There always seems to be. And it's usually headline news.


But, consider that while Best Buy employees, for example, do not work on commission, there are still other overlapping behind-the-scenes incentives in place. It's not Apple, but their competitors that try to influence retailers.

 

Apple has steered clear of these practices for years, and it works for them so long as they keep making high demand products.  The issue for Verizon trying to boost iPhone sales is that the retail side plays with a stacked deck against Apple.  Part of this is Apple's choice, since their list prices have very thin margins for retailers, and they do not offer up any other incentives for retail stores.  Most of Apple's competitors play this game, and it tilts the retail landscape.  Apple can compete successfully because they make a superior product with an unmatched content ecosystem.  But, they are still competing with a handicap in the retail space.

 

In-store retail sales remain a huge market factor, and keep in mind that Apple's own retail stores compete with Verizon stores.  If Apple does anything to try boosting Verizon's iPhone sales, that potentially has the effect of reducing sales at Apple stores, where they collect both the wholesale cost and retail markup. 

post #67 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
In-store retail sales remain a huge market factor, and keep in mind that Apple's own retail stores compete with Verizon stores.  If Apple does anything to try boosting Verizon's iPhone sales, that potentially has the effect of reducing sales at Apple stores, where they collect both the wholesale cost and retail markup. 

Good point but consider the fact that where I live there are at least 15 possibly 20 Verizon stores within a 15 mile drive of me. The closest Apple store is about 85 miles away. Apple stores are only located in larger cities  and even then may be far from where you live. Verizon stores are almost as abundant as McDonalds and in every town not just big cities. 

post #68 of 94
well new meaning to "Shipped not sold"...
post #69 of 94

Now I know the internet is really full of bullshit.

post #70 of 94
Note that I'm comparing the AT&T family plan that we already have had for three years to the Verizon share everything plan for new subscribers. Our AT&T bill for two iPhones with 2 GB of data on one and unlimitd on the other comes out to approximately $103 with all taxes and fees. I can't get anywhere near this on Verizon's share everything plan. It doesn't matter for us personally if the new AT&T plan is about the same as the new Verizon plan since AT&T has never threatened to get rid of any upgrade subsidies or any other tactics to force us to switch off of our current family plan to a more expensive plan.
post #71 of 94
Verizon Special Offer Scam Alert.

BTW folks... be very wary of Verizon offers out just now. My FiOS only (no phone nor TV) fee is $79.99 a moth for a 50/50. I got an offer for HD TV + Phone + FiOS + $300 cash card all for .... yep, $79.99 a month (albeit a slight increase year 2 of 2 year contract) which netted out to $180 less a year than I pay now.

Seems like a deal eh?

The very tiny small print on the back of the offer stated in the midst of other tiny print (I used a magnifying glass) stated *FiOS 15/15 Mbps

I guess Verizon and now using HD TV and phones as bait to get people to lower their bandwidth!
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post #72 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Verizon Special Offer Scam Alert.

BTW folks... be very wary of Verizon offers out just now. My FiOS only (no phone nor TV) fee is $79.99 a moth for a 50/50. I got an offer for HD TV + Phone + FiOS + $300 cash card all for .... yep, $79.99 a month (albeit a slight increase year 2 of 2 year contract) which netted out to $180 less a year than I pay now.

Seems like a deal eh?

The very tiny small print on the back of the offer stated in the midst of other tiny print (I used a magnifying glass) stated *FiOS 15/15 Mbps

I guess Verizon and now using HD TV and phones as bait to get people to lower their bandwidth!

I wish we could get FIOS in the Phoenix area....... For $79.99 I would try to increase the bandwidth and see how much that affects the price......

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post #73 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Verizon Special Offer Scam Alert.

BTW folks... be very wary of Verizon offers out just now. My FiOS only (no phone nor TV) fee is $79.99 a moth for a 50/50. I got an offer for HD TV + Phone + FiOS + $300 cash card all for .... yep, $79.99 a month (albeit a slight increase year 2 of 2 year contract) which netted out to $180 less a year than I pay now.

Seems like a deal eh?

The very tiny small print on the back of the offer stated in the midst of other tiny print (I used a magnifying glass) stated *FiOS 15/15 Mbps

I guess Verizon and now using HD TV and phones as bait to get people to lower their bandwidth!

It was quite silly of you to think that they were going to add TV + phone for free. There was obviously a catch somewhere and 15/15 is still pretty darn good.
post #74 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

There agreement almost certainly specifies what the effect of not meeting sales goals are that are less draconian (or Verizon would have been insane to agree to the deal).

 

I wonder. From time-to-time we see a story that references a carrier's objection to Apple's "daunting" contract requirements. We almost never get details about what said contracts demand or what objection the carrier has, but maybe it's stuff like what's reported here -- commit to a certain number of units over the life of the contract and pay for them whether you sell them or not.

 

Conditions like that might be part of why Japan's largest carrier still thumbs its nose at Apple.

post #75 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

It was quite silly of you to think that they were going to add TV + phone for free. There was obviously a catch somewhere and 15/15 is still pretty darn good.

Digitalclips never said he expected it. He said Verizon sent him an offer implying such a deal. The offer isn't what it appears and Verizon hopes people won't notice before they sign. Dirtbag move.
post #76 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

Digitalclips never said he expected it. He said Verizon sent him an offer implying such a deal. The offer isn't what it appears and Verizon hopes people won't notice before they sign. Dirtbag move.

Read again. He already has 50/50 for $79.99 (internet only deals are not advertised) he then saw a offer for TV/internet/phone at $79.99 (a great deal), most people aren't going to be aware of the internet speeds and 15/15 is plenty for the average user.
Edited by Soloman - 7/12/13 at 7:48am
post #77 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

If Apple will release these this year, it's a different story. Can they?

 

 

Ugly. 

 

The more I see these edge to edge concepts the more I detest them.

post #78 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

Read again. He already has 50/50 for $79.99 (internet only deals are not advertised) he then saw a offer for TV/internet/phone at $79.99 (a great deal), most people aren't going to be aware of the internet speeds and 15/15 is plenty for the average user.

I read it fine the first time thanks. If what Verizon is offering is such a good deal they shouldn't bury important contract details in the fine print. What you may think is plenty Internet speed for the average user should be decided by that average user without needing a magnifying glass.
post #79 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

That's what they get for telling their retail employees to push Androids and turn people away from iPhones.

EXACTLY my first thought after reading only the headline!!! Couldn't have said it better myself. Screw Verizon
post #80 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

Digitalclips never said he expected it. He said Verizon sent him an offer implying such a deal. The offer isn't what it appears and Verizon hopes people won't notice before they sign. Dirtbag move.

 

Or, using a little less tin foil hat, perhaps it just was a generic offer sent to everyone.

 

Those with 50/50 are special to begin with, and would be expected to pay more attention (as he did).

 

It's like when I get all those generic offers from Cablevision.  They're not tailored for me, or out to get just me.  They're just mass mail items and it's up to me to check the details.

 

Ditto for insurance, real estate, mortgage and other mass mailing offers. 

 

Now, if I called them up in person, so they were looking at my particular details, and they didn't tell me that my speed would change, THAT would be inexcusable.  But I don't think that would happen.  I think they'd say, hey you're going to lose 50/50, would you like to upgrade?


Edited by KDarling - 7/12/13 at 8:41am
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