or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Nokia bets on photography to boost sales with 41MP Lumia 1020
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Nokia bets on photography to boost sales with 41MP Lumia 1020

post #1 of 111
Thread Starter 
Nokia on Thursday announced the new, 41-megapixel Lumia 1020, a Windows Phone 8 handset that will try to turn the Finnish phone maker's photography cachet into unit sales.



The new Lumia handset is the spiritual successor to last year's 808 PureView. That Symbian-powered handset also sported a massive camera sensor, and Nokia has long promised that a comparable PureView model would debut in its Lumia line.

The 1020 has a suite of photography options meant to complement its oversized sensor. Chief among these is the Nokia Pro Cam mode, which allows users to make changes to the camera's white balance, ISO, and exposure. In order to ensure that users can share photos easily, the device takes two versions of any particular shot: one in the 41MP resolution and another in 5MP resolution.

The 1020 can also attach to an optional camera grip. This accessory gives the Nokia handset a look closer to that of a traditional camera, but it also packs a shutter button and a battery attachment that plugs into the Lumia's microUSB connector.

Aside from the camera, the 1020 packs a 4.5-inch AMOLED PureMotion HD+ display outputting at 1280x768. Inside, it has the same 1.5GHz dual-core MSM8960 processor that the Lumia 925 and Lumia 920 bore, though the 1020 has 2GB of RAM in order to better process photos.

The new handset ? which will launch on AT&T on July 26 for $300, with the UK's O2 and Three set to get the device in the third quarter ? is Nokia's latest attempt at clawing back market share in the wake of Apple and Samsung's rise. Once the leader in the mobile phone business, Nokia's fortunes took a tumble with the emergence of the iPhone, and the company has since struggled to retain relevance in an increasingly Android and iOS-dominated market.
post #2 of 111

Sigh. The more megapixels does not make a better photograph

post #3 of 111

SOunds great - now make it truly useful by having a 20x Optical zoom lens, ultra-stabilizer app/hardware, medium-light enviro setting, better than 1/250th sec, and the storage capacity to have at least a couple hundred high-res photos -without affecting phone compactness - then it will become more of a sharp-shooter camera than a quick-pic shooter.

post #4 of 111
While I would not buy one, I think that this is a valid approach. There are quite a few people (not tens of millions, but a significant amount) who do care about the camera quality of a phone most. Having OIS, a more powerful flash and 3x zoom is certainly not bad. And having a phone model that has no peers is certainly a proper strategy (if it works out remains to be seen).

I do not really understand the logic of marrying such a camera with an OLED screen that does not render some colors (and especially skin tones) properly though.
post #5 of 111
Nokia used to be the king of cameras on phones. It is very true that megapixels mean squat when it comes to the actual quality of a photo. But since most consumers have no clue about that 41MP will be an impressive selling point to the 90% of the public that don't know any better.
post #6 of 111
What's the file size of photos taken with this thing?
post #7 of 111
Johnny-

You are correct. The pixel spacing on these phone camera sensors became smaller than the point-spread function of the optics a long time ago. (Probably way back at about 3 MP, actually, but I haven't checked the optical specs for a while. There's only so much you can do physically with a small lens and short focal distance. ) So if Nokia adds a bunch more pixels we'll just have a bunch more blurry pixels. Now we have greater zoom levels into the universe of blur and artifact.

But the general consumer will be duped.

Thompson
post #8 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post

Sigh. The more megapixels does not make a better photograph

Incorrect.  It's not the only factor by a mile, but what you say is factually incorrect if all other aspects are identical.

2012 27" iMac i7, 2010 27" iMac i7, 2011 Mac Mini i5
iPad Air, iPad Mini Retina, (2) iPhone 5S, iPod Touch 5
Time Capsule 5, (3) AirPort Express 2, (2) Apple TV 3

Reply

2012 27" iMac i7, 2010 27" iMac i7, 2011 Mac Mini i5
iPad Air, iPad Mini Retina, (2) iPhone 5S, iPod Touch 5
Time Capsule 5, (3) AirPort Express 2, (2) Apple TV 3

Reply
post #9 of 111
What size are the pic files?
post #10 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Incorrect.  It's not the only factor by a mile, but what you say is factually incorrect if all other aspects are identical.

As I mentioned to johnny, due to the tiny optics on phone cameras, image resolution is now limited by the optics as opposed to how tightly you can sample the pixels at the focal plane.  This has been true for a long time.  So if you keep all other factors identical and bump the pixel count up by adding more pixels on the sensor (with tighter spacing) this will not do anything at all to improve image resolution.  You just find out that instead of having blurry pixels when you zoom in, you have a bunch more blurry pixels when you zoom in.  But when you zoom all the way out, you should see no improvement.

 

Johnny was correct.

post #11 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Incorrect.  It's not the only factor by a mile, but what you say is factually incorrect if all other aspects are identical.

For 4x6 shots, it's overkill. For poster size images, it'll be better but who prints out those?

The phone can hold 5 images at at time. Yay?!
post #12 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Incorrect.  It's not the only factor by a mile, but what you say is factually incorrect if all other aspects are identical.

 

That is incorrect. Megapixels has NOTHING to do with the quality of an exposure. What megapixels brings you are two things 1) the ability to print onto larger medias (paper or screen), although most software can do what megapixels can't. 2) the ability to heavily crop an image and maintain reasonable megapixels when printing. That is it. What increasing megapixels will do is increase the size of the file, which on a phone for texting and emailing is a bad thing. 

 

Now the quality of the pixels is a key factor as well as sensor quality and processor and software. And by far the most important is the glass!!!! 

 

Canon's top of the line $6,700 EOS has 18MPs, while their 5D MIII $3,500 EOS has 22MP. So it is safe to say that a $200 phone having 41MP is strictly marketing! 

 

I shot 90% of these with an 8MP EOS and assure you, it will beat out any 41MP phone image. 

post #13 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


For 4x6 shots, it's overkill. For poster size images, it'll be better but who prints out those?

The phone can hold 5 images at at time. Yay?!

Even for poster-sized images, it won't be better.  Even on the iPhone 5, as you blow up the image to print at larger dimensions, you'll see the blur from the optics well before you get to the point where you see the individual pixels.  41 MP with teeny-tiny optics will get you nothing but a larger image file.

 

Thompson

post #14 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

That is incorrect. Megapixels has NOTHING to do with the quality of an exposure. What megapixels brings you are two things 1) the ability to print onto larger medias (paper or screen), although most software can do what megapixels can't. 2) the ability to heavily crop an image and maintain reasonable megapixels when printing. That is it. What increasing megapixels will do is increase the size of the file, which on a phone for texting and emailing is a bad thing. 

 

Now the quality of the pixels is a key factor as well as sensor quality and processor and software. And by far the most important is the glass!!!! 

 

Canon's top of the line $6,700 EOS has 18MPs, while their 5D MIII $3,500 EOS has 22MP. So it is safe to say that a $200 phone having 41MP is strictly marketing! 

 

I shot 90% of these with an 8MP EOS and assure you, it will beat out any 41MP phone image. 

I agree....nice point. BTW...very nice pictures on your site! :-)

Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

Reply

Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

Reply
post #15 of 111

From what I've seen, it takes amazing photos for a phone. Take a look before whining about mega-pixels. 

post #16 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post

Sigh. The more megapixels does not make a better photograph

Yeah, like they are going to make a better camera than a high end Nikon, Minolta, Canon, Sony or Hasselblad.  I think it cool that they can do what they are doing but I wonder how much impact it's going to have on resources.   Obviously, the more pixels they capture, the more storage it's going to take, battery life, processing power and it may make the thing unusable.  

 

I used to use a digital camera and it had HORRIBLE battery life.  I used to go through batteries so often that I ended up not using the thing and it wasn't that great of a camera to begin with.  Battery life on smartphones, especially, is a big deal.  Same goes with digital cameras for that matter.

post #17 of 111
post #18 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

From what I've seen, it takes amazing photos for a phone. Take a look before whining about mega-pixels. 

I saw them and think they look great too (zoomed out).  But on the web page you are really only seeing a very small fraction of the pixels unless you zoom all of the way in.  Do so and you'll see the blur from the optics.  Stopping at 5 MP was probably sufficient.

post #19 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

Size of photo file:  400-600 KB

 

//arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/07/in-the-dark-and-on-the-move-with-the-nokia-lumia-1020s-camera/

Just saw the back of the phone.  That's a pretty sizable lens housing... so if the optics are high quality, it really might make for a good camera.  (Still think 41 MP is overkill though.)

post #20 of 111
I can finally start my own billboard company! /s
post #21 of 111

There is absolutely no way that thing has a large enough sensor to support 41 megapixels.  They're targeting dummies who simply don't know better.  Cramming more pixels onto a sensor only works if you increase the sensor size dramatically.  For 41 megapixels, we'd be talking about a sensor the size of what would be in a top of the line full frame DSLR (think $3,000+ price range minimum).

 

Apparently, we're going back to the old days where people buy based on numbers even when they have no idea what the numbers mean.

post #22 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

From what I've seen, it takes amazing photos for a phone. Take a look before whining about mega-pixels. 

 

Sure, they take good exposures, but that has nothing to do with megapixels which was my only complaint. It is the quality of the glass and sensor and how the processor eliminates noise and fixes any issues. That is why I with Apple would move to Canon or [hate to say it] Nikon instead of Sony as both have better image processing and glass. 

post #23 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

Just saw the back of the phone.  That's a pretty sizable lens housing... so if the optics are high quality, it really might make for a good camera.  (Still think 41 MP is overkill though.)

 

Just found this white paper:  i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf

It explains how 41MP is used to produce better pictures.  Interesting concept.  Hope the next iphone will be like this.

post #24 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

I saw them and think they look great too (zoomed out).  But on the web page you are really only seeing a very small fraction of the pixels unless you zoom all of the way in.  Do so and you'll see the blur from the optics.  Stopping at 5 MP was probably sufficient.

 

The default image size is still 5MP. This document goes a long way to answer all of the complaints made in this thread so far.

post #25 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

I shot 90% of these with an 8MP EOS and assure you, it will beat out any 41MP phone image. 

 

Wow! Those are some beautiful pictures Richard. I have always liked nature photography.

post #26 of 111
I've found many conflicting informations around this non-sense phone, It is pretty hard to make my mind on this device.

It seams the proclaimed 41Mpixels sensor is a scam, on some site the reported achieving this resolution thru oversampling, which is a very cheap trick to pull off. Beside since there is no point and shoot or DSLR 40 Mpixels camera under 6000$, I found Nokia claims pretty fishy.
Edited by BigMac2 - 7/11/13 at 1:51pm
post #27 of 111
Windows 8. The NSA will have instant access to all your photos...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data
post #28 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

 

Just found this white paper:  i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf

It explains how 41MP is used to produce better pictures.  Interesting concept.  Hope the next iphone will be like this.

 

Great find, thanks! I still need to finish reading this, but it is very interesting how they are applying the pixel oversampling to effectively get the best 5MP. I'm sure this also helps in their zooming. 

 

Thanks again. 

post #29 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

Size of photo file:  400-600 KB

 

//arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/07/in-the-dark-and-on-the-move-with-the-nokia-lumia-1020s-camera/

 

A great and sane 4Mpixels photo took with an iPhone 4S ;-) (check the exif tag on it)

post #30 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

 

The default image size is still 5MP. This document goes a long way to answer all of the complaints made in this thread so far.

 

Not really. It is still 5MP image from a 41MP exposure. They still put 41MP out there for marketing. It's almost a bait and switch if people think they are getting a 41MP output. 

 

Again, this take nothing away from the image quality of the phone, which is very nice. I just have issue with the marketing. 

post #31 of 111

Lastly I would like to say that Apple has a long way to go with their camera system, and not because it takes bad pictures, it does not, but because it could take great pictures and fully replace the point and shoot. 

 

In my opinion, this is an area Apple should have in-house and develop their own glass and sensors as they have the money to hire the best. Apple's weakest attributes are low light, even exposure, and speed. I hope the 5s bring about leaps in their camera tech. 

post #32 of 111
Why the **** do they think 14MP is useful on a phone when modern SLRs don't have 14MP?? What a ridiculous marketing gimmick.
post #33 of 111

I haven't seen it asked or mentioned yet about the impact on battery life and "logistics" of these monster images. During the event, Nokia mentioned and briefly showed the add-on grip which has a supplementary battery, ostensibly for the flash, but I'm thinking it's for overall battery life enhancement.

 

This looks like "feature boasting" from Nokia. I seriously doubt if 41 megapixel images will be "appreciated" by the average user. 

Daniel Swanson

Reply

Daniel Swanson

Reply
post #34 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

I haven't seen it asked or mentioned yet about the impact on battery life and "logistics" of these monster images. During the event, Nokia mentioned and briefly showed the add-on grip which has a supplementary battery, ostensibly for the flash, but I'm thinking it's for overall battery life enhancement.

 

This looks like "feature boasting" from Nokia. I seriously doubt if 41 megapixel images will be "appreciated" by the average user. 

 

It is not a 41MP output, but rather a 41MP capture (oversample) that is used to produce a 5MP output. Read the above article that boriscleto found for more information. 

post #35 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Why the **** do they think 14MP is useful on a phone when modern SLRs don't have 14MP?? What a ridiculous marketing gimmick.

 

This 41MP camera is not a gimmick. It is legitimate technique that can either 1) eliminate noise by means of supersampling  or 2) allow lossless zoom.

Most people here seem to completely ignore the fact that the nominal picture size is just 5MP.

Kudos to Nokia for that. I hope Apple will not ignore it, though looking how slow Apple is innovating the iPhone recently, it could be a very distant future:

 

Things I've been patiently waiting from Apple which are already available in some other phones:

 

Thin bezel

Waterproof

Supersampling camera

post #36 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

Johnny-

You are correct. The pixel spacing on these phone camera sensors became smaller than the point-spread function of the optics a long time ago. (Probably way back at about 3 MP, actually, but I haven't checked the optical specs for a while. There's only so much you can do physically with a small lens and short focal distance. ) So if Nokia adds a bunch more pixels we'll just have a bunch more blurry pixels. Now we have greater zoom levels into the universe of blur and artifact.

But the general consumer will be duped.

Thompson

Not quite. Large pixel densities don't cause blurryness, but they create heat, which causes noise, especially at high ISOs.

Although 41MP is too large in any case, I wonder what the sensor size is. If it's DX or larger, that would be interesting.

But how much storage is on this phone? Does it have removable storage? If not, you're going to fill it up pretty fast.
post #37 of 111
"41MP".
post #38 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post

There is absolutely no way that thing has a large enough sensor to support 41 megapixels.  They're targeting dummies who simply don't know better.  Cramming more pixels onto a sensor only works if you increase the sensor size dramatically.  For 41 megapixels, we'd be talking about a sensor the size of what would be in a top of the line full frame DSLR (think $3,000+ price range minimum).

Apparently, we're going back to the old days where people buy based on numbers even when they have no idea what the numbers mean.

Good review of previous Nokia's 41MP phone camera, 808.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8083837371/review-nokia-808-pureview

Lumia 1020 has improved glass and sensor, much as I could find out... so it cannot be worst than 808.
post #39 of 111

1. you can take 34 or 38 megapixel images if you do not mind the full size image on your phone. You can only get the full size images off the phone by connecting the phone to the pc. anyway else will compress them.

 

2. the image sensor is bigger then most point and shoot and cell phone picture sensors size wise

 

3. nokia stated that the pixels are the size of the iphone 5 camera sensor pixels BUT there are 41megapixels worth.  ITs a 1/1.5 sensor (the verge says 2/3)

 

4. The way they do their oversampling allows you to just take the picture and do the focusing in software. They showed this in real time in the press conference.

post #40 of 111
Does anyone else think the camera on the back of this phone is super ugly? And for all the talk here, we have to keep in mind that we are either tech professionals or enthusiasts not the average consumer. What consumer can truly be unhappy with photos taken on an iPhone 5?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPhone
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Nokia bets on photography to boost sales with 41MP Lumia 1020