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Nokia bets on photography to boost sales with 41MP Lumia 1020 - Page 2

post #41 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

That is incorrect. Megapixels has NOTHING to do with the quality of an exposure. What megapixels brings you are two things 1) the ability to print onto larger medias (paper or screen), although most software can do what megapixels can't. 2) the ability to heavily crop an image and maintain reasonable megapixels when printing. That is it. What increasing megapixels will do is increase the size of the file, which on a phone for texting and emailing is a bad thing. 

Now the quality of the pixels is a key factor as well as sensor quality and processor and software. And by far the most important is the glass!!!! 

Canon's top of the line $6,700 EOS has 18MPs, while their 5D MIII $3,500 EOS has 22MP. So it is safe to say that a $200 phone having 41MP is strictly marketing! 

I shot 90% of these with an 8MP EOS and assure you, it will beat out any 41MP phone image. 
I don't disagree with a thing you said. The examples of cameras you mentioned obviously have way different characteristics from one another. And of course your 8MP EOS will beat out the 41mp phone. What I said was if everything stays the same, then picture quality is improved (as you said- when cropping). I crop almost every picture I take, so it's a little more important to me I guess.

Absolutely amazing pictures. Very nice talent Richard!

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post #42 of 111
So far, I've not read any intelligent comments about the pixel density of this camera. Folks, pixels do matter. They do make a better photograph, and here's why. How the heck are you going to put a zoom lens inside a thin phone? You aren't. So to compensate, you let your users Digitally Zoom. You can then save a 5MP photo, zoomed in like you had a real telephoto, and your photo will look great (not stupid like the software interpolated low-MP cameras do it).

What this means is that even Apple should follow suit, allow using to ZOOM in on what we want to shoot.

It's not about saving huge files. I don't want a bunch of 48MP files saved on a phone. But I do want to zoom. Who doesn't?
post #43 of 111
"Forget the awkward industrial design. Ignore the frustrating mess that is Belle. Take one picture with Nokia's 808 PureView and all will be forgiven. We dare you. It's difficult to relay exactly how thoroughly awesome this camera is and how stupendously phenomenal the resulting shots are. This device instantly obliterates every other cameraphone, while simultaneously giving most dedicated point-and-shoots the proverbial finger. It's that good. So what's the special sauce? How is this possible? Welcome to the world of software photography, where lenses and motors and hardware are replaced with algorithms and code and wizardry."

- Engadget June 26, 2012 review of Nokia 808 with PureView 41MP sensor

But I guess y'all know better...
post #44 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post

Sigh. The more megapixels does not make a better photograph

It would make digital zoom useable though.
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post #45 of 111

Interesting, but nothing to sway me away from my iPhone.

 

I like my 4S and 5 photos and look forward to the 5S camera improvements, but a 41MP super camera is no proverbial "killer app" to make me dump Apple.

 

And I do not see the appeal of 50mb pics eating up all my storage space.

post #46 of 111
Megapixels above about 3 MP are pretty much irrelevant in a phone camera format. The crop factor of this unit's camera (4) is half that of the iP5 (8) which should lead to a 2-fold better signal to noise ratio. The drawback is shallower depth of field. Hardly likely to attract buyers in droves from the iPhone (a iP5 and DSLR combo is what I use if the trusty Nikon happens to be with me).
post #47 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post


Apparently, we're going back to the old days where people buy based on numbers even when they have no idea what the numbers mean.
I buy based on bogomips...old school. Seriously, this doesn't seem remotely enticing.
post #48 of 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andysol 

Incorrect.  It's not the only factor by a mile, but what you say is factually incorrect if all other aspects are identical.

 

Wrong. It's especially wrong if "all other aspects are identical".

 

The quality of a sensor with regards to color, resolution etc is based on how many photons (light particles) land on a single sensor receptor.

 

With higher megapixels, each receptor becomes smaller, so less photons land on it. This results in images with more noise and artefacts, and worse color.

 

That's why "full frame" or even DX sized cameras have better image quality than compact cameras with smaller sensors, and medium format cameras (huge sensors) even better.

 

There is a sweet spot for every sensor size with regard to megapixels. After that sweet spot, more megapixels mean worse images.

 

The only way to raise this sweet spot is to improve the sensor electronics (lower the noise barrier, etc). This is the reason a newer camera model has better image quality than the previous generation, other things being equal. This only takes you so far, though. You also have the laws of physics and optics to stop you.

 

Now, in particular, 44MP on a cellphone sized camera (heck, even on a compact camera), is just marketing for idiots. 

 

It has no relation with reality, optics, etc whatsoever.

 

To give you some context, $6000 full frame cameras that professionals use, with 10 or more times the sensor area, and much finer optics, are only around 26MP.

post #49 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

"41MP".

 

Specs. It's how "tech enthusiasts" measure penis length.

My Nikon D800, which only clocks in at a measly 36MP, is clearly an "inch short." 1wink.gif

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post #50 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


It would make digital zoom useable though.

 

In-camera cropping, for those of us with a photography background.

And your theory of useable crops is true only if the optics can hold up their end of the image capture pipeline. What's this thing packing? A Hasselblad lens?

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post #51 of 111

I bought the Nokia 808 the day it was released here in Switzerland. Until yesterday it was by far the best camera phone on the market, iPhone and all. The phones OS, well that's a different story, though for a Symbian phone it wasn't all that bad, the battery was nothing short of amazing. That amount of control you have when shooting in manual mode rivals that of most point and shoot cameras. Not to mention that it takes pictures extremely quick.  There is also a pretty good sized community and following as of yet for the Nokia 808 that has improved not only the camera app but have released some very useful and creative camera apps.

 

The 808 takes 41-megapixels' worth of information and condenses it down to 5MP. In essence, 7 individual pixels are collated together and combined into one "superpixel". This process means you benefit from the same amount of light that would hit the much larger pixels of a 5MP sensor, if it fitted into the same physical footprint. You benefit from solid low-light performance and at the same time you can remove noise and digital artifacts from individual pixels through the oversampling process. It's all done at the raw sensor information level too, but its lightning quick utilizing a dedicated processor to get the job done. The result is a super crisp 5MP image that's much sharper, with greater detail than an ordinary 5MP sensor can achieve.

 

Though tons of megapixels is all great and all, it's really the size of the image sensor and quality of lens that makes the best photos, here is the lens assembly for the Nokia 808;

 

 

Samsung, Sony (ie iPhone) and then Nokia is at the bottom. The Nokia 808 and 1020 also allows for shooting in RAW and has optical stabilization, again for a camera phone, that's just cool. As the cliché goes, the best camera in the world is the one at your fingertips and I've taken terrific pictures that I wouldn’t have snapped otherwise because I simply wouldn’t have had a dedicated camera with me, merely an ordinary smartphone. And the 808 is no ordinary smartphone.

 

Coming back to Nokia 1020, I am extremely excited about getting my hands on one, I have already promised the 808 to my daughter. Yes it runs Windows 8 but for a personal phone I have no problems with it as it's a big step up from Symbian and to be honest I actually like the interface. Hopefully there will be as many custom camera apps for it then there are for the 808.

 

I'm sure your iPhone 5 takes great pictures and most of you think this is just gimmicky. Nokia used to be my favorite mobile company but lately they haven't produced anything that I would call worthy of note. This thing however is pretty mind blowing, speaking from experience with the 808, it takes amazing pictures and the 1020 just improves on that formula with an even better camera and UI, so I am going to award Nokia by purchasing one. I don't want to see Nokia go the way of the Dodo bird. I shudder to think of a world with just iOS and Android in it.


Edited by Relic - 7/11/13 at 11:24pm
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post #52 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

Specs. It's how "tech enthusiasts" measure penis length.

My Nikon D800, which only clocks in at a measly 36MP, is clearly an "inch short." 1wink.gif

Oh baby, it's how you use it that counts.

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post #53 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

From what I've seen, it takes amazing photos for a phone. Take a look before whining about mega-pixels. 

Rich, if you read the above thread, you'll see that the same quality (amazing) photos could be had for far less pixels. The large number of pixels limit how many the camera/phone can hold and how fast then can be sent out from the device. So, 41 Mp is a bad thing and in the end, just marketing.

 

Now all that said, if Nokia wants to make themselves a niche, marketing the device as a good camera-phone instead of a good smart phone is an interesting idea. The fact the phone is weighed down with Windows 8, and there are no apps to speak of, means Nokia needs something to make up for the shitty OS and lack of apps. Perhaps if they made an optional decent lens attachment that would weigh as much as the phone and triple the thickness of the assembly, they might attract some attention. Without that, they will only appeal to the ignorant and be shunned by those who know optics.

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post #54 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Rich, if you read the above thread, you'll see that the same quality (amazing) photos could be had for far less pixels. The large number of pixels limit how many the camera/phone can hold and how fast then can be sent out from the device. So, 41 Mp is a bad thing and in the end, just marketing.

Now all that said, if Nokia wants to make themselves a niche, marketing the device as a good camera-phone instead of a good smart phone is an interesting idea. The fact the phone is weighed down with Windows 8, and there are no apps to speak of, means Nokia needs something to make up for the shitty OS and lack of apps. Perhaps if they made an optional decent lens attachment that would weigh as much as the phone and triple the thickness of the assembly, they might attract some attention. Without that, they will only appeal to the ignorant and be shunned by those who know optics.

Wow, I bet if Apple used this technology in their iPhone 5s or 6 it would be hailed as the next revolutionary option and you wouldn't question it one bit. Have you even been to any of the shutter bug blogs, the Nokia 808 almost always get's high praise from the, "who know optics" crowd . Yes the new Nokia 1020 runs WIndows 8 but the OS isn't bad, it's actually pretty intuitive and all of the mainstream apps are available; Evernote, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, News; CNN, Engadget, Pulse, News 360, games; Modern Combat 4, Asphalt 7, Armed!, ect. What apps are you looking for that aren't in the Windows Store. I don't have a Windows 8 phone yet but my 13 year old son does and he has the exact same apps that my daughter and husband have on their iPhone. He especially enjoys the Xbox Live app so he can keep in touch with friends and arrange weekly battles with his Halo clan and uses Xbox Glass for his games.

I'm not comparing Windows 8 to iPhone here, I'm just saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with people using this mobile OS. Except for the lack of a file manager it's actually a pretty decent OS and I will enjoy it when my new Nokia 1020 arrives early next month.

The Nokia 808 has proven that Pureview isn't just a gimick, the burst mode for example at 8MP takes between 3 - 5 pictures a seconds, I have never seen that kind of speed with the same picture quality on any cell phone. The new 1020 even has hardware image stabilization and hardware zoom. I have played with almost every native camera app that exists, the Nokia's blows them all away by a huge margin. There is even a developers kit just for the camera app so you can add your own functionality. National Geographic has issued them to their field photographers and has even developed an app for the phone because of how they felt about this phone.

I'm sure your very happy with your phone and it takes great photos but this is on another level, itis a unique camera phone that honestly does what Nokia is marketing.

Just for fun take the phone out of your pocket and take a picture as fast as you can, by the time you get to your phone app I would have already taken 3 pictures that have begone syncing with my Skydrive and Instagram.

These are neat,





Edited by Relic - 7/12/13 at 4:21am
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post #55 of 111

Now you have the means to spam your own Mac/Win/Linux-PC to uselessness in no time.

post #56 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post


Wow, I bet if Apple used this technology in their iPhone 5s or 6 it would be hailed as the next revolutionary option and you wouldn't question it one bit. 

 

I bet if you read the thread you would see that no one is complaining about the image quality, but the marketing use of 41MP. If Apple did this, they would get flamed as well, but Apple would not. They would advertise 5MP using 'SuperPixels' and then explain what a super pixel was, which is 41MP of data pushed into a 5MP output while allowing filtering of artifacts and distortion. 

 

The fact that this is NOT a 41MP output, but is advertised as a 41MP camera while knowing that people will assume that megapixels means the same megapixels in every other camera sold. Maybe Intel should start offering 12GHz processors instead of 4-3GHz processing cores? 

post #57 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

I bet if you read the thread you would see that no one is complaining about the image quality, but the marketing use of 41MP. If Apple did this, they would get flamed as well, but Apple would not. They would advertise 5MP using 'SuperPixels' and then explain what a super pixel was, which is 41MP of data pushed into a 5MP output while allowing filtering of artifacts and distortion. 

The fact that this is NOT a 41MP output, but is advertised as a 41MP camera while knowing that people will assume that megapixels means the same megapixels in every other camera sold. Maybe Intel should start offering 12GHz processors instead of 4-3GHz processing cores? 

Have you used a Nokia 808?
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post #58 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW View Post

So far, I've not read any intelligent comments about the pixel density of this camera. Folks, pixels do matter. They do make a better photograph, and here's why. How the heck are you going to put a zoom lens inside a thin phone? You aren't. So to compensate, you let your users Digitally Zoom. You can then save a 5MP photo, zoomed in like you had a real telephoto, and your photo will look great (not stupid like the software interpolated low-MP cameras do it).

What this means is that even Apple should follow suit, allow using to ZOOM in on what we want to shoot.

It's not about saving huge files. I don't want a bunch of 48MP files saved on a phone. But I do want to zoom. Who doesn't?

And your comment is not intelligent either.    Zooming (actually cropping) is only one aspect.   As I previously wrote, high pixel densities cause heat and heat causes noise, especially at high ISOs.    So while you gain resolution, you then lose it due to the noise.      Each new generation of sensors are better in this regard, but 41MP in a 1/2.5" or even a 1/1.65" sensor is overkill.     1/1.65", which is what the Leica D-Lux 4 and 5 used (but with a 10.1MP sensor) is only 11.9% the size of an APS-C sensor and 5.2% the size of a full frame sensor.    Besides, if you can't get a "raw" format out of the phone (and I suspect you can't), then it's a bit moot anyway.    I suspect the camera is using very high compression ratios to output the JPG, which will also decrease quality, although increase storage space.

 

In any case, the true test is in the results and until people get their hands on the phone, we don't know whether it's good or bad.    

 

Note that Nikon's top of the line D4 body ($6000), is only 16MP and in DX (APS-C) mode, it's only 6.81MP.   Canon's top of the line EOS-1Dx ($6800) is 18.1MP.   It's their lower priced cameras that have higher megapixel counts.    The MP counts are relatively low because these bodies are used by pros who need the highest quality.    Which means being able to shoot at high ISOs with low noise.     A highly packed sensor can't do that. 

 

While developing a tiny 41MP sensor is quite an accomplishment (and I wonder whether Nokia developed it or whether it's third party and if so, who accomplished it), this is not about quality.  It's about being able to market the idea that it has this 41MP sensor because "if the number is bigger, it must be better", especially with macho men who have no real understanding of the physics -- you know, "my amp goes to 11" and all that. 

post #59 of 111
Nokia is absolutely obsessed with their camera technology, and that serves as a great distraction to all the other things that really matter to people in choosing a mobile device. Perhaps they should fully pursue their obsession, drop all the phone stuff, and go compete with Nikon.
post #60 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I bought the Nokia 808 the day it was released here in Switzerland. Until yesterday it was by far the best camera phone on the market, iPhone and all. The phones OS, well that's a different story, though for a Symbian phone it wasn't all that bad, the battery was nothing short of amazing. That amount of control you have when shooting in manual mode rivals that of most point and shoot cameras. Not to mention that it takes pictures extremely quick.  There is also a pretty good sized community and following as of yet for the Nokia 808 that has improved not only the camera app but have released some very useful and creative camera apps.

 

The 808 takes 41-megapixels' worth of information and condenses it down to 5MP. In essence, 7 individual pixels are collated together and combined into one "superpixel". This process means you benefit from the same amount of light that would hit the much larger pixels of a 5MP sensor, if it fitted into the same physical footprint. You benefit from solid low-light performance and at the same time you can remove noise and digital artifacts from individual pixels through the oversampling process. It's all done at the raw sensor information level too, but its lightning quick utilizing a dedicated processor to get the job done. The result is a super crisp 5MP image that's much sharper, with greater detail than an ordinary 5MP sensor can achieve.

 

Though tons of megapixels is all great and all, it's really the size of the image sensor and quality of lens that makes the best photos, here is the lens assembly for the Nokia 808;

 

 

 

Samsung, Sony (ie iPhone) and then Nokia is at the bottom. The Nokia 808 and 1020 also allows for shooting in RAW and has optical stabilization, again for a camera phone, that's just cool. As the cliché goes, the best camera in the world is the one at your fingertips and I've taken terrific pictures that I wouldn’t have snapped otherwise because I simply wouldn’t have had a dedicated camera with me, merely an ordinary smartphone. And the 808 is no ordinary smartphone.

 

Coming back to Nokia 1020, I am extremely excited about getting my hands on one, I have already promised the 808 to my daughter. Yes it runs Windows 8 but for a personal phone I have no problems with it as it's a big step up from Symbian and to be honest I actually like the interface. Hopefully there will be as many custom camera apps for it then there are for the 808.

 

I'm sure your iPhone 5 takes great pictures and most of you think this is just gimmicky. Nokia used to be my favorite mobile company but lately they haven't produced anything that I would call worthy of note. This thing however is pretty mind blowing, speaking from experience with the 808, it takes amazing pictures and the 1020 just improves on that formula with an even better camera and UI, so I am going to award Nokia by purchasing one. I don't want to see Nokia go the way of the Dodo bird. I shudder to think of a world with just iOS and Android in it.

 

 

Excellent review.  Can I buy the camera without the phone?  Nokia should come out with a version without the phone, and pack some more features to it.

post #61 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post


Not quite. Large pixel densities don't cause blurryness, but they create heat, which causes noise, especially at high ISOs.

Although 41MP is too large in any case, I wonder what the sensor size is. If it's DX or larger, that would be interesting.

But how much storage is on this phone? Does it have removable storage? If not, you're going to fill it up pretty fast.

zoetmb:

 

You didn't address my point correctly.

 

Do you know what I meant by "point spread function"?   This is how much a hypothetical infinitesimal point of light (or ray) gets spread out (defocused) by the optics.  Focus is never perfect, and that is an optical physical fact.  If the pixels on your sensor array are dense enough that more than a few fit inside the spread function, then you have "blurry" pixels at whatever zoom level it takes to distinguish that many pixels.  This happens by 5 MP for most phone camera lenses.  If you then squeeze more into that same spread function, then all you are adding is more "blurry" pixels.  That is what I meant by the above, and I stand by it.  Having said that...

 

What is interesting about this phone is that it has a larger lens than most, so potentially a narrower point spread function.  I didn't realize that when I first replied to this thread.  Also, I do appreciate the fact that one can reduce sensor noise by oversampling and then co-adding neighboring pixels, and the white paper shows that that is what Nokia is trying to do.

 

But anybody that thinks this is going to yield 41 million sharp pixels is duped by the specs.

post #62 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW View Post

So far, I've not read any intelligent comments about the pixel density of this camera. Folks, pixels do matter. They do make a better photograph, and here's why. How the heck are you going to put a zoom lens inside a thin phone? You aren't. So to compensate, you let your users Digitally Zoom. You can then save a 5MP photo, zoomed in like you had a real telephoto, and your photo will look great (not stupid like the software interpolated low-MP cameras do it).

JDW, you can zoom into all those glorious pixels all you want, but the fact remains that the actual physical optics (which, as you said, cannot provide true optical zoom) have already defocused the image to approximately the equivalent of your 5 MP sample spacing before the image even touches the sensor.  What then?  Then you have a "blurry" image relative to the 41 MP sample spacing, and when you attempt your digital zoom, you will discover that the telephoto image you thusly made is pure crap.

 

Now, I understand that you may not have ever heard of a "point spread function" or studied optics, but don't be like many other people who when they read something that contains words that mean nothing to them assume that there is nothing intelligent in there.

 

The noise reduction aspect is really nice though.  WE did something like that on a commercial satellite once.  This is not high science, but it is nice to add to a phone.

post #63 of 111

It has the supersampling tech from 808 and OIS from 920, so it might actually be pretty good.

post #64 of 111

Until fairly near the end, likely the most ill-informed thread (and key-detail-lacking article) from people claiming knowledge of what makes for quality digital photos I've read in a long time (even if many had bits of accurate factoids).  And that's saying something.

The Verge had actually cogent coverage - including of both hardware and software features (and associated upcoming apps and accessories) NO one's mentioned here.

Anyway, pending Apple's next release and actual reviews of production models of both, this one's on my watch list, since I'm buying this fall.  And I won't leave the Apple ecosystem behind in any case, as a new iPad's and/or MB's (running VM Ware Fusion since I'm platform agnostic and need to be in both worlds already) on my list as well


Edited by bigpics - 7/13/13 at 12:46am

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post #65 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post


The Verge had actually cogent coverage - including of both hardware and software features (and associated upcoming apps and accessories) NO one's mentioned here.

I already posted the Verge article here; http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/158449/nokia-lumia-1020-a-41-megapixel-windows-phone
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post #66 of 111
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post #67 of 111

This thread is actually funny, in a very sad way.  Watch all the neural connections short circuit as they try and come up with something, anything, to salve the ego-hurt caused by some company other than Apple having a technology that is indisputably far in advance of anything Apple has to offer.
 

One of the things I like about photography is that seeing is believing and no amount of rationalisation and mental gymnastics will ever be able to persuade someone to disbelieve the truth their eyes deliver.

 

Well done, Nokia.

post #68 of 111

I think you r wrong have you seen the quality of the 808 phones photos, it has better color reproduction and far less noise when you zoom than most DSLR cameras. Also consider security cameras, what are the resolution of those, hundreds of mega pixels?, so i think they are just following the trend, and of course they aren't going to put huge sensory devices in phones, because its impractical, and technology in general is getting smaller, so they are just showcasing that, and good on Nokia for putting it in a windows phone, because people with windows phones don't generally consider their cameras as a strong point.

post #69 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Taggart View Post

I think you r wrong have you seen the quality of the 808 phones photos, it has better color reproduction and far less noise when you zoom than most DSLR cameras. Also consider security cameras, what are the resolution of those, hundreds of mega pixels?, so i think they are just following the trend, and of course they aren't going to put huge sensory devices in phones, because its impractical, and technology in general is getting smaller, so they are just showcasing that, and good on Nokia for putting it in a windows phone, because people with windows phones don't generally consider their cameras as a strong point.

That might be true, but if they had used pretty much the same tech, but used a lower resolution sensor, the results could have even been better.    I think it's hard to  disagree with the idea that this wasn't about using the best technology, but about bragging rights - the ability to say it has a 41MP sensor.    It's no different than the way computer manufacturers used to use clock speeds as a marketing gimmick, but it meant relatively little. 

post #70 of 111
Camera looks good, but my iPhone 5 looks like it takes pictures faster, singles and burst. Plus it has HDR. Really surprised this phone doesn't, it's marketed to photographers. When I show my HDR photos from my iPhone 5 at Ireland, people's mouths gape open every time. My friends have asked me to text them these photos, one friend told me she was going to have one painted. I love showing them off.

The super pixel stuff is complete nonsense. I bet you've never heard of super pixels before, maybe Nokia invented something that was never there! Let's say you have a 1inch 5mp chip, and a 2inch 5mp chip.. The 2inch will look better. The pixels are more accurate. Most camera companies market the larger chip. Nokia, though, doesn't want to market the larger chip size - why? Maybe because they don't want to be stuck giving you a large chip in the future, but still want to use the 'pure view' moniker. Maybe because they know their chip isn't big enough to warrant a 41mp label. But people will catch on, they'll get confused when Nokia afficianados start trying to explain super pixel processing.

As I said before, the camera does look good. But it also costs $100 more. Some have said that it starts at 32gb though. The extra 16gb doesn't cost $100. Apple and everyone else up charge, Nokia just isn't letting you choose the entry level, and getting your premium up charge by default.

I think larger chips in phones needs to continue, but some of these other practices need to stop.
post #71 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinpublic View Post

Camera looks good, but my iPhone 5 looks like it takes pictures faster, singles and burst. Plus it has HDR.

Actually the Nokia is faster, the video's you have been seeing about the Nokia 1020 mostly shows photos being taken at an ISO speed of 200 - 400 and is on automatic, as you can manually change the ISO speed all the way up to 1600, 3200 add that and a super quick hardware shutter (and one of the few that actually use a hardware shutter), the Nokia can get 3 - 5 pictures a second, which makes it the fastest camera phone on the market. Now I haven't played with the new one but I do own the Nokia 808 and if the 1020 is anywhere near it then it will definitely be faster than the iPhone 5. Plus you have a dedicated camera button that can take pictures without unlocking the phone, so spare of the moment photos are much faster. HDR will be added later in the default app and third party camera apps already support it, plus there is a SDK kit just for the camera app, as with the Nokia 808 there are many plugins available, HDR support was added to Nokia 808 this way.

iPhone users probably won't be wowed enough to jump ship just for the camera though. I will definitely get one though as I have no allegiance to any one manufacturer, that and I love photography, my Nokia 808 takes the best pictures I have ever seen come out of phone or even most point and shoot cameras. Unfortunately the 808 runs Symbian and the platform is dead, Windows 8 will at least be around until my mobile contract is up in a year.
Edited by Relic - 7/13/13 at 12:41pm
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post #72 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post


Have you used a Nokia 808?

 

No, but I don't see the relevancy. 

post #73 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

That is incorrect. Megapixels has NOTHING to do with the quality of an exposure. What megapixels brings you are two things 1) the ability to print onto larger medias (paper or screen), although most software can do what megapixels can't. 2) the ability to heavily crop an image and maintain reasonable megapixels when printing. That is it. What increasing megapixels will do is increase the size of the file, which on a phone for texting and emailing is a bad thing. 

 

Now the quality of the pixels is a key factor as well as sensor quality and processor and software. And by far the most important is the glass!!!! 

 

Canon's top of the line $6,700 EOS has 18MPs, while their 5D MIII $3,500 EOS has 22MP. So it is safe to say that a $200 phone having 41MP is strictly marketing! 

 

I shot 90% of these with an 8MP EOS and assure you, it will beat out any 41MP phone image. 

Those are some nice shots. That said, why are you comparing a camera of a phone to a DSLR? That's like comparing iPad's gaming performance against an i7 desktop with high end graphic card. I'm pretty sure Nokia wanted 1020 to compete against other camera phones such as iphones and galaxies. Now let's see the comparison between those 3.

post #74 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by macfb6 View Post

It has the supersampling tech from 808 and OIS from 920, so it might actually be pretty good.

 

That will give you noise reduction to overcome issues with noise on CCD arrays.  So it will be an improvement of sorts, and I like it.  Note that in order to take advantage of that, you will be using the down-sampled 5 MP version of the image file.  Resolution will be as any other 5 MP image but noise will be reduced.

 

But no matter what, increasing pixel density on the CCD cannot recover lost resolution due to optical diffraction, and so the resolution of the image will be limited by that (which is way more limited than the 41 MP spec implies).  The vast majority of the folks responding on this thread have NO IDEA the relevance of what I am saying about optical physics.  My argument is both winning and irrefutable, but instead of attacking my point, they ask "how can 41 MP not be better than 8 MP (or whatever)" or they just call me an Apple fanboi.

post #75 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ Kay View Post

Those are some nice shots. That said, why are you comparing a camera of a phone to a DSLR? That's like comparing iPad's gaming performance against an i7 desktop with high end graphic card. I'm pretty sure Nokia wanted 1020 to compete against other camera phones such as iphones and galaxies. Now let's see the comparison between those 3.

 

I was not comparing the quality as much as the megapixels as stating that if higher end cameras don't use 41 megapixels, why would we buy the hype of a phone doing so. And thanks, I love photography! :) 

post #76 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

I was not comparing the quality as much as the megapixels as stating that if higher end cameras don't use 41 megapixels, why would we buy the hype of a phone doing so. And thanks, I love photography! 1smile.gif 

Because of this.... make sure it's on 1080p

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64797097/Nokia/nokia-lumia-1020-pro-3.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64797097/Nokia/nokia-lumia-1020-pro-highres-3_SRGB_5M.jpg
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/cam/nokia/808_pureview/201305052343DrX30k.jpg
Edited by Relic - 7/21/13 at 1:16am
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post #77 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post

Sigh. The more megapixels does not make a better photograph

 

Nokia knows this.  Which is why it doesn't actually capture 41 MP pictures, it uses some sort of sensor magic to take better photos at regular resolutions (8MP, 12MP, etc...).  

post #78 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

I was not comparing the quality as much as the megapixels as stating that if higher end cameras don't use 41 megapixels, why would we buy the hype of a phone doing so. And thanks, I love photography! 1smile.gif 

You seem to be very passionate about debunking Nokia's new camera phone. Though your absolutely right that megapixels doesn't necessarily equal great photos the Nokia also has one the largest sensors and probably the best optics you can possibly put into a phone without fusing a camera onto it like Samsung did with Galaxy S4 Zoom.

Here is a break down of the Nokia 808 for example;



The new Nokia 1020 uses 6 very high quality Leica lens



The manual controls on the Camera app are also fantastic, I have never seen this kind of control on any phone. You can select a manual ISO speed of 80 - 1600, the 808 had a plugin for 3200 which will probably see for the 1020 soon. The Carl Zeiss lens is F2.2 and has a optical image stabilization, 4x Optical zoom without distortion like you get with digital. The audio when recording video is something that you just have to hear for yourself, at just north of 140db nothing compares. There is a whole lot of other features but I think there is no way to convince you because you keep comparing this to a DSLR camera.

I bought the Nokia 808 the day it was available, though the phone itself was nothing to write home about the camera in it was absolutely brilliant. I used to carry around a Leica X1 in my purse, it was small enough and took exceptional pictures but the Nokia 808 was so good I didn't feel the need to carry it around any more. Look don't take my word, head over to http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8083837371/review-nokia-808-pureview and read some of the comments. We'll have to wait for the review of the 1020 but if it's anywhere near the 808 it will be a winner for photographers. You might also want to check out the National Geographic boards on the subject, they issue out Nokia 808's to their photojournalist.

Before you roll your eyes I would really recommend you play with the Nokia 1020. Nokia might have made a mistake with going all WIndows 8 with their phones but one thing they do know how to do is make a great camera phone, I still think the three year old N8 takes better pictures than the iPhone 5. Heck they were the first to really bring the camera phone to the masses with their Nokia 7650, even first with Xenon flash with the Nokia N82. I was going to suggest picking up a used Nokia 808 but it looks like they're still going for about 400 bucks, even used. If you lived in the EU I would be more than happy to let you borrow mine for a while. I might be willing to send it to California if you promise to send it back, I'm that confident in the product, that and I think your a wonderful photographer.1biggrin.gif
Edited by Relic - 7/22/13 at 2:22am
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post #79 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

I was not comparing the quality as much as the megapixels as stating that if higher end cameras don't use 41 megapixels, why would we buy the hype of a phone doing so. And thanks, I love photography! :) 

Check out Hasselblad, they make a REAL 60 megapixel camera that's $32K, i can guarantee you that this Lumia 1020 is NOT even in the same ball park of anyone's pipe dream as the Hasselblad H4D-60.  It's not even going to be close to their earlier models like a H5D-40 40 Megapixel medium format camera that goes for $18K.  

 

You want a REAL camera, buy a REAL camera.  You want 4K or 5K resolution video?  Buy a RED.  It's so funny how these mass merchandise products confuse and mislead consumers.  To me it's like BOSE spouting off that they make high end speaker systems.  The Lumia is just another Windows phone that's trying to be a camera and I'm sure it takes decent photographs for what it is, but it's still just a consumer grade product for taking photos and videos for Joe Blow that just wants to have a point and shoot camera, instead of a REAL professional grade product. But it's still a Windows phone which doesn't have many apps available on it.

post #80 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post


You seem to be very passionate about debunking Nokia's new camera phone. Though your absolutely right that megapixels doesn't necessarily equal great photos the Nokia also has one the largest sensors and probably the best optics you can possibly put into a phone without fusing a camera onto it like Samsung did with Galaxy S4 Zoom.

Here is a break down of the Nokia 808 for example;



The new Nokia 1020 uses 6 very high quality Leica lens



The manual controls on the Camera app are also fantastic, I have never seen this kind of control on any phone. You can select a manual ISO speed of 80 - 1600, the 808 had a plugin for 3200 which will probably see for the 1020 soon. The Carl Zeiss lens is F2.2 and has a optical image stabilization, 4x Optical zoom without distortion like you get with digital. The audio when recording video is something that you just have to hear for yourself, at just north of 140db nothing compares. There is a whole lot of other features but I think there is no way to convince you because you keep comparing this to a DSLR camera.

I bought the Nokia 808 the day it was available, though the phone itself was nothing to write home about the camera in it was absolutely brilliant. I used to carry around a Leica X1 in my purse, it was small enough and took exceptional pictures but the Nokia 808 was so good I didn't feel the need to carry it around any more. Look don't take my word, head over to http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8083837371/review-nokia-808-pureview and read some of the comments. We'll have to wait for the review of the 1020 but if it's anywhere near the 808 it will be a winner for photographers. You might also want to check out the National Geographic boards on the subject, they issue out Nokia 808's to their photojournalist.

Before you roll your eyes I would really recommend you play with the Nokia 1020. Nokia might have made a mistake with going all WIndows 8 with their phones but one thing they do know how to do is make a great camera phone, I still think the three year old N8 takes better pictures than the iPhone 5. Heck they were the first to really bring the camera phone to the masses with their Nokia 7650, even first with Xenon flash with the Nokia N82. I was going to suggest picking up a used Nokia 808 but it looks like they're still going for about 400 bucks, even used. If you lived in the EU I would be more than happy to let you borrow mine for a while. I might be willing to send it to California if you promise to send it back, I'm that confident in the product, that and I think your a wonderful photographer.1biggrin.gif

Well, I'm sure some will wait for the next iPhone because that's only a couple of months away. So you are trying to compare a brand new product with one that's 10 months old?  Oh, OK.  I think people will get plenty of satisfaction on an iPhone camera for MOST point and shoot situations.  These are NOT going to replace high end professional cameras because the lens are tiny.  People just want a decent camera instead of buying one of those point and shoot camera for taking pictures of friends, family members, etc.   I am just curious how long the battery will last if you use the thing as a camera.  That's a major concern since I would like to be able to answer calls and make calls instead of using it as a camera and only getting a couple of hours of battery life.  That's what I would be concerned about.  My old Fuji ran on AA batteries and it ran through those like water which is why I don't use it anymore.  Either way, I don't do Windows, the iPhone camera is plenty good enough for my needs and they aways improve the camera so I really don't need to focus on one aspect of a product to persuade me to use a platform that hasn't got very many apps to choose from.   

 

Commercial applications will always go for the high end products, plain and simple.

 

Relic,  You seem to have this smartphone fetish and I'm afraid not everyone spends (wastes) as much money on you on smartphones were it gets to the point where we collect them like you do.  I buy a product to use it, not to collect it.  Moving from phone to phone, platform to platform to me is the biggest waste of time just to show off that I'm always using the latest and greatest smartphone technology because I can't seem to just buy something and use it for a couple of years. Aren't you ever happy with something you bought where you just don't always need to buy something else every time a new product is announced?

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