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New Deux Ex game for iOS hobbles gameplay if device is jailbroken - Page 2

post #41 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Some Android users are upset that they can't play it yet:

http://kotaku.com/sorry-console-pc-gamers-but-the-mobile-deus-ex-is-damn-736609646

"No need to apologize to us, they'll be more than sorry for all of us when they see the sales numbers. Deus Ex isn't big enough to be a big mover on a limited platform. MAYBE if it was on Android, Windows Phone, Vita and or 3DS."

"It's coming to Andriod devices "soon", if you'll care to take a look at the end of the article."

"That's actually my bad. it was originally announced as only an iPhone game. I guess we'll see then. It might not do too badly then. I just couldn't see it doing very well on just one mobile market vs. The majority of the market (Android and Apple combined.)"

Yeah, it'll do much better in sales once it reaches all those laggy Android devices in about 6 months once they get it to work properly on all the different models and then just end up supporting the Samsung Galaxy. It's funny how the Android crowd is sort of like the Windows crowd but this time round, they bitch about Apple because they're the only one getting good software support. It used to be Windows users put down Apple's computers because of a lack of software support.

They haven't even said a timeframe for the Android version. It would be funny if they end up cancelling their plans to port it over like many developers before them. The internet rage will be unbearable. Funny though.
 

 

Android fans shouldn't fret. They've vocal in complaining when iOS gets game publishers' love, but that's a normal state of affairs for them. You might as well buy an OUYA and complain it's not getting BioShock Infinite.

 

In the mean time, they can post lists of elite hardware specs. I never get tired of that. And by that, I mean it warms my heart when that's their fallback position.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #42 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Unlocking is a separate thing from jailbreaking. You can buy unlocked iPhones without them being jailbroken.

Regardless of what individuals use jailbreaking for, the very fact that it's jailbroken allows the user to install a stolen copy of the game and this is an easy way of protecting against it.

The game looks pretty good:



Some Android users are upset that they can't play it yet:

http://kotaku.com/sorry-console-pc-gamers-but-the-mobile-deus-ex-is-damn-736609646

"No need to apologize to us, they'll be more than sorry for all of us when they see the sales numbers. Deus Ex isn't big enough to be a big mover on a limited platform. MAYBE if it was on Android, Windows Phone, Vita and or 3DS."

"It's coming to Andriod devices "soon", if you'll care to take a look at the end of the article."

"That's actually my bad. it was originally announced as only an iPhone game. I guess we'll see then. It might not do too badly then. I just couldn't see it doing very well on just one mobile market vs. The majority of the market (Android and Apple combined.)"

Yeah, it'll do much better in sales once it reaches all those laggy Android devices in about 6 months once they get it to work properly on all the different models and then just end up supporting the Samsung Galaxy. It's funny how the Android crowd is sort of like the Windows crowd but this time round, they bitch about Apple because they're the only one getting good software support. It used to be Windows users put down Apple's computers because of a lack of software support.

They haven't even said a timeframe for the Android version. It would be funny if they end up cancelling their plans to port it over like many developers before them. The internet rage will be unbearable. Funny though.

On the bright side, they can play with a Deus Ex theme until then:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ramazor.theme.freedea&hl=en

It's a shame the iOS controllers aren't out yet. This would have been a great title to launch with them. Same with Knights of the Old Republic (another iOS exclusive).
Very true, most reviews seem to be positive so far.

PS for anyone who doesn't know already, the Steam Summer Sale has started. They have 700+ Mac games in there.

Knights of the Old Republic is actually very good with a touch interface. No need for a controller.

A FPS would definitely benefit from a controller, but it better have dual sticks.
post #43 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milford View Post

This is not how the law works.

Actually I think that's how the law (exception really) reads.

It's an exception to copyright law as long as it's not for illegal purposes.
post #44 of 80
Jailbreaking an iPad or touch is100% illegal no questions about it. Downloading a AppStore app to a jailbroken phone is 100% illegal. Once you jailbreak a device it is no longer an authorized Apple device.
post #45 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by frxntier View Post


That doesn't mean it's illegal.

 

If you want to root your device then things not working as expected is your own responsibility.

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post #46 of 80

I love the Deus Ex franchise but won't be buying this unless it comes to a platform with a keyboard.

 

And I believe in keeping my word. If you buy an iOS device and at some point click on an agreement that you will not jailbreak, then don't, simple as that. If, after buying, you don't like the restriction of only buying from the App Store, then return the device and buy something else, don't break your word.

post #47 of 80

Do you remember Dungeon Master back in the day? If you had a cracked version, the game would kill you with a huge fireball after a few minutes...

 

It's a very clever way to protect your game against piracy, because a hacker needs to know what she's looking for before altering the right binary at the right place. And if the designer booby-traps the game in different places with different traps and different ways to check for the genuine nature of the game, it's eventually very effective against the diffusion of cracked versions.

 

Ultimately, the Very Old Question about how much money is really being lost has to be asked... how many people will buy the game because it's not easely available for free?

post #48 of 80

Why does everyone continually go on about this almost exclusively as a piracy issue? What you have done by jailbreaking a device is to alter the OS from the way Apple released it.

 

I'm a developer and it's one thing to support my apps on Apple's certified official platform but if someone starts having support issues on a jailbroken device then how am I supposed to replicate their setup without jailbreaking my own device? In the Android world you may well have to support multiple versions of the OS but the high uptake rates for iOS releases means that as a developer I can test on only a few legitimate devices and be confident that my software works on a customer's device running those releases of iOS. Once a customer jailbreaks their device then on what iOS release am I now attempting to offer support? Is the bug in my software, Apple's software or some interaction of one or two of those with the effects of jailbreaking the device?

 

Warn the customers (as the screen shot shows the the App page for Deus Ex clearly does, at least now!) and if people want to jailbreak their devices then they take a risk and definitely should not complain at all about anything that a developer does to provide quality support for a quality product.

post #49 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

1) You don't have to jailbreak to pirate apps on an iOS device.  You've never had to.

 

Huh?  How do you get the pirate apps onto your iPhone without jailbreaking?

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post #50 of 80

Jailbreaking is explicitly, 100% legal (although it voids your warranty): http://www.cultofmac.com/52463/apples-official-response-to-dmca-jailbreak-exemption-it-voids-your-warranty/52463/

 

There seems to be a lot of misinformation here about jailbreaking. There is a huge amount of functionality that jailbreaking has added to the device - multitasking, gestures, tethering, wallpapers (before Apple had them), live wallpapers, notification center (before Apple), widgets, access to the filesystem, etc.

 

I've jailbroken every iOS device I've owned, but never pirated an app. Plus the jailbreak community is pretty great - lots of smart guys experimenting with cool technology.

 

Anyway, I think what the developer is doing is pretty lame. No doubt a cracked version will be out soon (if it's not already), in which case the only people who lose out are the paying customers. If developers continue down this path, people will be forced to pirate, since it'll be their only way to get apps. Pirates will always get free apps. As a developer, you can't win that fight - so instead, try to keep your paying customers happy, and accept that people are going to pirate your software no matter what you do.

post #51 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Yeah, it'll do much better in sales once it reaches all those laggy Android devices in about 6 months once they get it to work properly on all the different models and then just end up supporting the Samsung Galaxy.

I experience the opposite, I play the same exact games on my Galaxy Nexus and on my iPod Touch, and they run smooth on my Nexus yet lag considerably on my iPod.
post #52 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

I experience the opposite, I play the same exact games on my Galaxy Nexus and on my iPod Touch, and they run smooth on my Nexus yet lag considerably on my iPod.

Your post makes no sense as he said they'd likely only end up supporting Galaxy devices. Also, it's irrelevant without specifying which generation of iPod you have.
post #53 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Your post makes no sense as he said they'd likely only end up supporting Galaxy devices. Also, it's irrelevant without specifying which generation of iPod you have.

4th gen iPod Touch.
post #54 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post



That is new since I posted. Good that they updated their description.
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post #55 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRRosen View Post

Jailbreaking an iPad or touch is100% illegal no questions about it. Downloading a AppStore app to a jailbroken phone is 100% illegal. Once you jailbreak a device it is no longer an authorized Apple device.

Here is what Apple has to say about it;

iOS is designed to be reliable and secure from the moment you turn on your device. Built-in security features protect against malware and viruses and help to secure access to personal information and corporate data. Unauthorized modifications to iOS ("jailbreaking") bypass security features and can cause numerous issues to the hacked iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch, including:

Security vulnerabilities: Jailbreaking your device eliminates security layers designed to protect your personal information and your iOS device. With this security removed from your iOS device, hackers may steal your personal information, damage your device, attack your network, or introduce malware, spyware or viruses.

Instability: Frequent and unexpected crashes of the device, crashes and freezes of built-in apps and third-party apps, and loss of data.

Shortened battery life: The hacked software has caused an accelerated battery drain that shortens the operation of an iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch on a single battery charge.

Unreliable voice and data: Dropped calls, slow or unreliable data connections, and delayed or inaccurate location data.

Disruption of services: Services such as Visual Voicemail, Weather, and Stocks have been disrupted or no longer work on the device. Additionally, third-party apps that use the Apple Push Notification Service have had difficulty receiving notifications or received notifications that were intended for a different hacked device. Other push-based services such as iCloud and Exchange have experienced problems synchronizing data with their respective servers.

Inability to apply future software updates: Some unauthorized modifications have caused damage to iOS that is not repairable. This can result in the hacked iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch becoming permanently inoperable when a future Apple-supplied iOS update is installed.

Apple strongly cautions against installing any software that hacks iOS. It is also important to note that unauthorized modification of iOS is a violation of the iOS end-user software license agreement and because of this, Apple may deny service for an iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch that has installed any unauthorized software.


...and what the Library of Congress has to say -> https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2012-26308.pdf

I tried Jailbreaking my device a couple of times but made my device unstable so off it went. I don't see the appeal of hacking an iOS device, I own a Android tablet for those kind of shenanigans.
Edited by Relic - 7/12/13 at 9:53am
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post #56 of 80
Those who do have a Jailbroken device here is a work around. I'm surprised that they actually thought the lock out would actually keep people from using the game.

Go to Cydia
Look for a tweak called xCon
Install it and re-spring the device.
Run the game now.
Voila!

Okay if it doesn't work the first time, you might have to re-install the game to remove the jailbreak-detect data.
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post #57 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Huh?  How do you get the pirate apps onto your iPhone without jailbreaking?

You do it threw the bulk enterprise licensing technology, basically you assign the iOS device to another store that let's you use, well, less then credible sources. There are many of these stores available but I won't post any here because it's naughty.
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post #58 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen View Post

I'm a developer and it's one thing to support my apps on Apple's certified official platform but if someone starts having support issues on a jailbroken device then how am I supposed to replicate their setup without jailbreaking my own device?

You obviously don't have to support them. Why should a developer feel obliged to support every hacked firmware a customer decides to install? If someone hacks an XBox 360 to play 'backup' games and has issues, it's not up to the game publisher/developer to make it work. A portion of those people will have stolen the game anyway. Hardly anyone who jailbreaks their device to steal games would admit they steal games. Even people who steal them will claim to be an innocent victim and a legitimate customer and spread negative PR about the developer in order that the anti-piracy measures be removed so they can steal games more easily.

Customers can complain about a developer purposely not supporting the iPad 1 or iPhone 3GS but the developer can choose what they want to support. If they don't want to support hacked firmwares, that's their choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tape 
Quote:
The number one reason for jailbreaking today remains the downloading of stolen copies of games

Citation needed.

Developers have to make an assumption one way or the other. If a significant number of people jailbreaking do so to pirate (there was an estimate in 2010 put it around 40% of jailbreakers) then they need a deterrent and putting these measures in is a deterrent because it means people who steal the game have to wait for it to be patched. Apple wants to deter customers from jailbreaking and this has a similar effect.

There are very few legitimate reasons for jailbreaking these days. Avoiding paying for tethering certainly isn't one nor is avoiding paying Apple the developer fee.

If you google for Appcake, you can see the charts for downloads.

Modern Combat 4 has 320,000 downloads, Tom Tom 394,000 (this is a $100 app), Navigon 353,000 ($80 app). Modern Combat 4 only came out last month. Deus Ex is under 3,000 just now because it doesn't work.

Angry Birds has 726,000 downloads and it costs $0.99. That's one store out of maybe 3 or 4 main ones. One of the latest jailbreaks topped 7 million downloads. A 40% piracy rate seems reasonable when the numbers are split between the stores. Even if the percentage is lower, the numbers are significant. The Tom Tom app represents ~$40m. Of course it may not be lost revenue if they wouldn't have bought it but some of them would have if they didn't have the option to steal it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frxntier 
'it's illegal to own a car if the sole purpose of that car is to assist with bank robberies.' The logic doesn't fly.

That logic actually does fly to an extent. People who have been charged with illegal use of computers get banned from using computers. Computers aren't banned for everyone but the measures used in a given scenario are ones that solve the problem. Developers clamping down on jailbreakers will act as a deterrent for both jailbreaking and piracy. The most committed will see it as a challenge but the people who could take it or leave it will see it as nuisance and stop doing it. That shrinks the target audience for those profiting from the piracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf 
Are many game studios planning to cease development for Mac and PC because those platforms let one install programs from any source?

That question doesn't really apply directly to this scenario. The developer hasn't ceased development for anything. As it happens though, many developers do in fact go console exclusive and often cite PC piracy as a reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drealoth 
I've jailbroken every iOS device I've owned, but never pirated an app.
Anyway, I think what the developer is doing is pretty lame. No doubt a cracked version will be out soon (if it's not already), in which case the only people who lose out are the paying customers. If developers continue down this path, people will be forced to pirate, since it'll be their only way to get apps.

This is what many jailbreakers say: 'I've never pirated', 'the developers will learn their lesson', 'customers will have to steal'. The solution for customers is simple: install an Apple-approved firmware.
post #59 of 80
Uh, typo in multiple places... It's Deu**S** Ex, not Deux Ex.
post #60 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

This is what many jailbreakers say: 'I've never pirated', 'the developers will learn their lesson', 'customers will have to steal'. The solution for customers is simple: install an Apple-approved firmware.

Actually like I stated above there is a much easier ways of installing pirated apps in your iPad, you don't need to Jailbreak it. Most people who Jailbreak do so to add features like a filemanager, fast toogles to disable things like Wifi and Bluetooth, turn on full multitasking (run apps in the background) for all of your apps not just the Apple approved ones, install Unix software like Perl, PHP and Pyhthon, heck even a LAMP server, create folders in folders which is great for categories, install the iSwipe keyboard, activate hotspot without paying for it, even change the default web browser, the list goes on and on.
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post #61 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen View Post

Why does everyone continually go on about this almost exclusively as a piracy issue? What you have done by jailbreaking a device is to alter the OS from the way Apple released it.

 

I'm a developer and it's one thing to support my apps on Apple's certified official platform but if someone starts having support issues on a jailbroken device then how am I supposed to replicate their setup without jailbreaking my own device? [snip]

 

Warn the customers (as the screen shot shows the the App page for Deus Ex clearly does, at least now!) and if people want to jailbreak their devices then they take a risk and definitely should not complain at all about anything that a developer does to provide quality support for a quality product.

 

What they did with this game was different from what you're describing.  In this case, it's not a question of the game not working on jailbroken devices, but rather the app checks to see if the game is jailbroken and then notifies the user that a feature has been disabled.  They are intentionally disabling it.  This really isn't anything new, a lot of apps have tried this, and all have failed.  Heck, they even failed with this one as there was already a tweak for it before this story was published.  The article may have just as well been "If you haven't already updated xCon, be sure to do so before playing Deus Ex".

 

They've done this in a misguided attempt to thwart piracy/cheats.  However both piracy and cheating can be accomplished without jailbreaking, and the jailbreak community is smart enough to get around this.  To thwart cheats, they should encrypt their plists (and possibly other files).  To thwart piracy, provide a good app at a decent price, with a trial version, update frequently, and hope for the best (app piracy is waaaay down these days).

 

As a developer, I understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to support the chaos of jailbroken system configurations.  I'm not alone, I think the overwhelming majority of people in the jailbreak community understand and accept this.  I have a lot of iOS devices, some jailbroken, some not.  Often I'll encounter a problem that is not jailbreak related, but has a jailbreak fix, or because I'm jailbroken I'm able to diagnose the problem.  There are a lot of idiots who jailbreak and do stupid things only to then say "it was too unstable so I restored", but if you spend some time to learn what you're doing, you can end up with a much better system.

post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

There are a lot of idiots who jailbreak and do stupid things only to then say "it was too unstable so I restored", but if you spend some time to learn what you're doing, you can end up with a much better system.

I think that was pointed at me, I really had no reason to Jailbreak my device to begin with as I just use it for music creation. I'm very intelligent when it comes to hacking and customizing my devices, I compile my own version of Android. I really just wanted to try it and when I did a few of my apps crashed frequently and as I use the iPad to pretty much do a single important task I didn't feel the need to continue experimenting. I agree with your assessment that if you spend the time you can have a much better system though, my post above covers the advantages.
Edited by Relic - 7/12/13 at 12:54pm
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post #63 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post


I think that was pointed at me, I really had no reason to Jailbreak my device to begin with as I just use it for music creation. I'm very intelligent when it comes to hacking and customizing my devices, I compile my own version of Android. I really just wanted to try it and when I did a few of my apps crashed frequently and as I use the iPad to pretty much do a single important task I didn't feel the need to continue experimenting. I agree with your assessment that if you spend the time you can have a much better system though, my post above covers the advantages.

 

No, sorry, that wasn't pointed at you at all.  I was referring to people I see who have their sole iOS device, usually a relied upon iPhone, and jailbreak it on day 1, and then go into Cydia as if every tweak is supposed to be installed.  I'll then see them ranting and raving about problems they're having only to then see them give up and make claims about how unstable jailbroken devices are, or even problem with jailbreaking itself (because they tried it on day 1).

 

I do see people who go and jailbreak, and are left with a "is that all there is?" and restore back as well.  There's nothing wrong with that either.

post #64 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Customers can complain about a developer purposely not supporting the iPad 1 or iPhone 3GS but the developer can choose what they want to support. If they don't want to support hacked firmwares, that's their choice.
Developers have to make an assumption one way or the other. If a significant number of people jailbreaking do so to pirate (there was an estimate in 2010 put it around 40% of jailbreakers) then they need a deterrent and putting these measures in is a deterrent because it means people who steal the game have to wait for it to be patched. Apple wants to deter customers from jailbreaking and this has a similar effect.

There are very few legitimate reasons for jailbreaking these days. Avoiding paying for tethering certainly isn't one nor is avoiding paying Apple the developer fee.

 

They are certainly free to choose to do this, but it's a very foolish decision on their part.  Your cited estimate of 40% in 2010 was heavily flawed, and misquoted.  We'll post this again... You don't need to jailbreak to pirate apps.  You have never needed to jailbreak to pirate apps on iOS.  It's easier not to jailbreak if you're solely interested in pirating apps. The same is true for game cheating.

 

What they've done isn't a deterrent at all.  You only get this issue if you're already on a jailbroken device.  A person in that state is faced with options:

1) Forget about the game.

2) Forget about your jailbreak and restore.

3) Patch the game.

4) Pirate the game.

 

The patch and a cracked version of this game (available to pirate) were already available before this article even posted.  There is a jailbreak tweak called xCon which many people have installed already because Deus Ex wasn't the first to do this (by far).  Anyone with xCon already installed and updated, wouldn't even know Deus Ex had done this.  Likewise, anyone who pirated Deus Ex whether they were jailbroken or not, wouldn't have ran into this problem.

 

As far as legitimate reasons for jailbreaking these days... I've purchased a ton of tweaks and apps through Cydia, and there are a bunch of free tweaks and apps as well.  You may not be interested in the reasons, but you can't say they don't exist, just Google "top jailbreak tweaks" or look at YouTube videos dedicated to this.

 

As far as tethering... I'm not sure if you mean that was ever a legitimate reason to jailbreak.  If you do, then the reason still exists.  If you don't, then I'm with you as I'd consider theft of service to be just as bad as theft of apps.  However, even with a tethering plan, some of those tethering apps in Cydia offer features and functionality that aren't theft of service.

post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drealoth View Post

Jailbreaking is explicitly, 100% legal (although it voids your warranty): http://www.cultofmac.com/52463/apples-official-response-to-dmca-jailbreak-exemption-it-voids-your-warranty/52463/

 

That should be "Apple says, 'it can void your warranty'".

post #66 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRRosen View Post

Jailbreaking an iPad or touch is100% illegal no questions about it. Downloading a AppStore app to a jailbroken phone is 100% illegal. Once you jailbreak a device it is no longer an authorized Apple device.

 

There are lots of questions regarding jailbreaking an iPad. 

1) What countries are we talking about?

2) In the US, what would happen if someone were charged with this?  Nobody ever has, and if they were, there would be all kinds of legal challenges.

3) Does the Library of Congress have the authority to make the laws it has? (this hasn't been ruled on yet)

 

The only reason why the iPad wasn't included in the explicit exemption is because the definition of a tablet wasn't established during the window during which they review exemptions.  However, the same reasons that make jailbreaking an iPhone an exemption, clearly make jailbreaking an iPad an exemption.

 

As far as downloading an app fro the Apple App Store to a jailbroken device being illegal, I have no idea where you're getting this from, but you're wrong.  If you think you're correct, please cite the law.

post #67 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Most people who Jailbreak do so to add features like a filemanager, fast toogles to disable things like Wifi and Bluetooth, turn on full multitasking (run apps in the background) for all of your apps not just the Apple approved ones, install Unix software like Perl, PHP and Pyhthon, heck even a LAMP server, create folders in folders which is great for categories, install the iSwipe keyboard, activate hotspot without paying for it, even change the default web browser, the list goes on and on.

Where are the stats for how many people are jailbreaking for utilities to be able to claim that "most" people are doing it for legitimate reasons? The file manager that is paid for through Cydia has even been cracked and stolen. Over 700,000 downloads of Angry Birds in one store suggests that quite a lot of people are jailbreaking to steal apps.

The Chinese site for getting cracked apps is only available in China, which makes piracy numbers even worse because it suggests that Appcake etc are mainly used by Western countries. The Chinese site claims to have had 5 million users getting apps:

http://www.dailytech.com/Chinese+Store+Selling+Pirated+iOS+Apps+Without+Need+for+Jailbreak+Blames+iTunes+for+its+Existence/article30386.htm

That store only launched in April this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

They are certainly free to choose to do this, but it's a very foolish decision on their part.

The only foolish decision they made was not saying that it didn't work properly on jailbroken devices at launch (they only added the message later) because it means people would be able to ask for a refund. They've recently said they will update the app to allow it to run properly on jailbroken devices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

Your cited estimate of 40% in 2010 was heavily flawed, and misquoted.

It looks like a realistic estimate:

http://www.mobile-ent.biz/news/read/4m-ios-users-have-installed-apptrckr-piracy-app/011001

The number of evasion downloads is 23 million so 10 million in 2010 looks pretty reasonable. If anything, it was more likely an overestimate, which would put the piracy ratio higher.
post #68 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


The Chinese site for getting cracked apps is only available in China, which makes piracy numbers even worse because it suggests that Appcake etc are mainly used by Western countries. The Chinese site claims to have had 5 million users getting apps:

You could easily circumvent that by accessing the site threw a Chinese proxy, not condoning just saying.
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post #69 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The only foolish decision they made was not saying that it didn't work properly on jailbroken devices at launch (they only added the message later) because it means people would be able to ask for a refund. They've recently said they will update the app to allow it to run properly on jailbroken devices.

It really didn't matter as a solution was spreading through the internet the very same day the app was released.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #70 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRRosen View Post

Jailbreaking an iPad or touch is100% illegal no questions about it. Downloading a AppStore app to a jailbroken phone is 100% illegal. Once you jailbreak a device it is no longer an authorized Apple device.
You're completely wrong. Why bother posting when you have no clue what you're talking about?
'App Store' is the correct formatting. And there is no such thing as an authorized Apple device.
Also, downloading an App Store app to a jail broken device is in no way illegal. You've paid for it, you can download it.
post #71 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Where are the stats for how many people are jailbreaking for utilities to be able to claim that "most" people are doing it for legitimate reasons? The file manager that is paid for through Cydia has even been cracked and stolen. Over 700,000 downloads of Angry Birds in one store suggests that quite a lot of people are jailbreaking to steal apps.

 

No, it shows a site that is saying it has had over 700K downloads of Angry Birds.  Has it, because surely no disreputable site would ever lie about that number.  Of those downloads, how many were actually installed?  Of those that were installed, how many were on jailbroken devices (again, you don't have to jailbreak to pirate apps).  Of those that were installed on jailbroken devices, how many were not later purchased, or had already been purchased but the user downloaded a cracked version for some reason (like compatibility).

 

"suggests that quite a lot of people are jailbreaking to steal apps"

 

No, if the number is true, it suggest that a lot of app stealing has taken place.  It says nothing about how many jailbreakers stole (because again, you don't have to jailbreak to pirate apps).  And most importantly, it doesn't say anything in regards to why those people jailbroke.  They may have jailbroken for hundreds of reasons, but then stole an app.

 

"http://www.dailytech.com/Chinese+Store+Selling+Pirated+iOS+Apps+Without+Need+for+Jailbreak+Blames+iTunes+for+its+Existence/article30386.htm"

 

This is really funny because the very URL you cite contains the words "Without Need for Jailbreak".

 

"http://www.mobile-ent.biz/news/read/4m-ios-users-have-installed-apptrckr-piracy-app/011001"

 

See, that's just it... Apptrckr is no more, and there's a false assumption that those who installed it, used it for piracy, and used it for piracy that they otherwise wouldn't have committed had they not jailbroke.  Even the author suggests that the numbers from Apptrckr could be in error and that they don't necessarily reflect the amount of piracy that is taking place.

 

But again, the main point here on why the developers were foolish to do this is because all it did was piss off those who jailbroke and paid for the the game.  Those people could just of easily installed xCon (which tricks apps into thinking the device is not jailbroken) or they could've installed a cracked version of the app.

 

It's like saying... "we identify this group as being likely to pirate, even they bought our game, but since they're likely to pirate, let's restrict them in our game that we know they paid for; leaving that group with the easiest option being to pirate our game"  What did they expect was going to happen?

post #72 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

You could easily circumvent that by accessing the site threw a Chinese proxy, not condoning just saying.

Do you think that millions of people are funnelling their internet traffic through Chinese proxies? All you're suggesting here anyway is that piracy is higher than the already significant portion of the jailbreak community engaged in it. If the Chinese site was taken down, the millions using it would resort to jailbreaking in order to achieve the same result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic 
It really didn't matter as a solution was spreading through the internet the very same day the app was released.

It seems so, on Appcake it's up to 10,000 downloads just since yesterday - the xCon workaround is on the app page. Some won't have noticed it or have been aware of xCon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut 
No, it shows a site that is saying it has had over 700K downloads of Angry Birds. Has it, because surely no disreputable site would ever lie about that number. Of those downloads, how many were actually installed? Of those that were installed, how many were on jailbroken devices (again, you don't have to jailbreak to pirate apps). Of those that were installed on jailbroken devices, how many were not later purchased, or had already been purchased but the user downloaded a cracked version for some reason (like compatibility).

Those are questions for you to provide the answers to. I'm showing you evidence that many people who jailbreak do in fact pirate apps. If you have evidence rather than hypotheticals to the contrary then provide it.

The usual justifications are exactly the same for the XBox and PS3 e.g these people just want to run Linux on it or play backed up copies of purchased games and then claim this is what most people are doing with their hacked firmwares.

I'm aware that a significant portion of jailbreakers do modify their phone UIs and use tethering apps to avoid paying phone companies extra and there's a significant portion that steals apps. Regardless of whether or not they should be tarred with the same brush, they are all breaking someone's terms of service and every game publisher has a right to implement measures that at the very least raises publicity around the issue of jailbreaking and piracy in order that people who do jailbreak and don't pirate take a stronger stance against piracy.

If they lose business as a result, that's their choice to make. Given that people who don't jailbreak outnumber those who do by about 10:1 or more, I don't think they will suffer for their decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut 
It says nothing about how many jailbreakers stole (because again, you don't have to jailbreak to pirate apps).

You do have to jailbreak to download apps from that store.
post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Do you think that millions of people are funnelling their internet traffic through Chinese proxies? All you're suggesting here anyway is that piracy is higher than the already significant portion of the jailbreak community engaged in it. If the Chinese site was taken down, the millions using it would resort to jailbreaking in order to achieve the same result.

You brought up the Chinese sight, I didn't even know that one existed. There are many others worldwide not just the one you found in China, to get to them all you need to do sign up to one of the many iOS hacker forums on the subject. Most are roaming meaning they change IP addresses regularly but all you need to do is check the boards the day you want to steal apps. Have you ever looked at the Jailbroken app that steals, it's riddled with non-functioning versions and non-working download sites, it's the worst way to get pirated apps, not to mention the selection of apps is dismal.

Look, I don't condone this behaviour in any way but I really think you're misinformed here, as an experiment go try it yourself, just try and download and install say Pages, I guarantee you will come back saying, "well that's a pretty worthless app".

Those who download pirated apps don't normally use a Jailbroken iPad, if they do their not getting much or anything worth doing it again.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #74 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You do have to jailbreak to download apps from that store.

Again, no you don't these cracker sites including the Chinese one that you mentioned use the, "Enterprise Licensing Technology" to install apps. This Chinese site seems to be very public about it that's why they were found out but this sort of thing has been happening for a while now.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #75 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You do have to jailbreak to download apps from that store.

Again, no you don't these cracker sites including the Chinese one that you mentioned use the, "Enterprise Licensing Technology" to install apps. This Chinese site seems to be very public about it that's why they were found out but this sort of thing has been happening for a while now.

Appcake has its own Cydia app and a guide for jalbreaking on the site - the other stores have Cydia apps too. They wouldn't need those if they installed apps the same way as the Chinese sites.

One of the developers who setup a method to install apps without jailbreaking spoke out against piracy and has tried to prevent his software being used for it:

http://www.geek.com/mobile/zeusmos-creator-follows-installous-ceases-piracy-features-for-ios-1534413/

"Immediately after announcing that he would no longer make it easy to pirate apps with Zeusmos, Uhelios was inundated with refund requests from users who flat out told him that they purchased his app simply to pirate apps from the App Store. The Zeusmos website and access to the current tool have been pulled, and an announcement was made that an update would be released that would remove the features he no longer felt were appropriate. Zeusmos would return to be a code signing tool for developers who wanted to test their apps outside of the Apple ecosystem."
post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

and the garden gets smaller and smaller...

Shut up and go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelMustard View Post

What I'd like to know, as a developer myself, is how they detect that the device is jailbroken.

Ah, I forget the details, but Apple did this earlier. They run a check by putting code in the app that sees if the device can install a dummy app that isn't signed by the App Store. If so, it returns yes, and that yes allows the real app to make changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRRosen View Post

Jailbreaking an iPad or touch is100% illegal no questions about it. Downloading a AppStore app to a jailbroken phone is 100% illegal. Once you jailbreak a device it is no longer an authorized Apple device.

Totally wrong.

Jailbreaking is legal.
Downloading a free App Store app to a jailbroken device is legal.
Downloading a paid App Store app to a jailbroken device after having paid for it is legal.
Downloading a paid App Store app to a jailbroken device after having not paid for it is illegal.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #77 of 80
a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Appcake has its own Cydia app and a guide for jalbreaking on the site - the other stores have Cydia apps too. They wouldn't need those if they installed apps the same way as the Chinese sites.

One of the developers who setup a method to install apps without jailbreaking spoke out against piracy and has tried to prevent his software being used for it:

http://www.geek.com/mobile/zeusmos-creator-follows-installous-ceases-piracy-features-for-ios-1534413/

"Immediately after announcing that he would no longer make it easy to pirate apps with Zeusmos, Uhelios was inundated with refund requests from users who flat out told him that they purchased his app simply to pirate apps from the App Store. The Zeusmos website and access to the current tool have been pulled, and an announcement was made that an update would be released that would remove the features he no longer felt were appropriate. Zeusmos would return to be a code signing tool for developers who wanted to test their apps outside of the Apple ecosystem."

Well there you go, so jailbreaking your iPad for the intent of downloading and installing pirated apps is one step closer to being a pipe dream. This is great news.
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #78 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Those are questions for you to provide the answers to. I'm showing you evidence that many people who jailbreak do in fact pirate apps. If you have evidence rather than hypotheticals to the contrary then provide it.

 

No, those are questions for you.  You are the one claiming 40% of jailbreakers do so to pirate.  You provided that to show as evidence, but it clearly doesn't prove anything as you can't answer those questions. 

 

 

Quote:
The usual justifications are exactly the same for the XBox and PS3 e.g these people just want to run Linux on it or play backed up copies of purchased games and then claim this is what most people are doing with their hacked firmwares.

 

No, not at all.  Unlike the Xbox and PS3, there are a huge number of commercial and free apps available for jailbroken devices.  There are a huge number of tweaks and themes and other things you can do with a jailbroken device.  I'm pointing out that you don't know much about the subject of jailbreaking iOS devices, and it clearly shows, because you're not reporting on anything from the community.  Go look at http://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/, and you'll learn a lot about why people jailbreak.  And while you're there, try counting the number of piracy related posts and comments (if you can even find any).

 

Quote:
Regardless of whether or not they should be tarred with the same brush, they are all breaking someone's terms of service

 

But that's just it, stealing is objectively bad.  Breaking terms of service is not inherently bad.  They are literally term-of-service,  breaking them isn't a violation of law, and for good reason.

 

 

Quote:
every game publisher has a right to implement measures that at the very least raises publicity around the issue of jailbreaking and piracy in order that people who do jailbreak and don't pirate take a stronger stance against piracy.

 

Of course they have that right, I've never said they didn't.  However, I have said it was a very foolish thing to do, it does nothing to prevent either jailbreaking or piracy and actually encourages people who would otherwise buy the game, to pirate it to prevent putting up with their restriction.

 

As far as people who do jailbreak and don't pirate, again, check out the largest community on the net in regards to jailbreaking.  I dare you to post something positive about piracy.  You will be pounced upon.

 

 

Quote:
If they lose business as a result, that's their choice to make. Given that people who don't jailbreak outnumber those who do by about 10:1 or more, I don't think they will suffer for their decision.

 

Yes, again, it's their right to make stupid decisions.  But according to your made up statistic, that means they prevented 10% of their customers from playing the non-pirated version of their game and if you look at the app store reviews ended up with a lot of single-star negative reviews.

 

Look, we're both strongly anti-piracy.  And I'm pro-jailbreak, you're anti-jailbreak, but regardless of either of those two things, you have to admit, their actions, despite having every right to do so, were foolish in terms of the results they were looking for.

 

Really, what they should've done was encrypt their .plist files, and continued to release frequent updates while still maintaining their more than reasonable price for the game.

 

I say this as a developer myself...  The best course of action is not to piss off any segment of your customers.  Look for alternative revenue options, and provide the best value possible.  In the end, there will always be pirates, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

Quote:
You do have to jailbreak to download apps from that store.

 

Sigh... no you don't.

post #79 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

No, those are questions for you.  You are the one claiming 40% of jailbreakers do so to pirate.  You provided that to show as evidence, but it clearly doesn't prove anything as you can't answer those questions.

You suggest that the numbers don't indicate jailbreakers are pirates by saying maybe they're not all bad and buying eventually. Developers have not found that to be the case. You can justify any form of theft with hypotheticals e.g 'that guy stole a car. Well, maybe he'll use the money he makes from it to start a business and eventually pay society back'. The act of downloading a file via these sites is theft and a significant portion of people who jailbreak are doing it. If that wasn't the case, Appcake, ipastore etc wouldn't be on Cydia and if jailbreakers were so against it, those apps would be banned from Cydia.

If jailbreakers are against piracy, why don't they ban piracy apps and sources from Cydia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

However, I have said it was a very foolish thing to do, it does nothing to prevent either jailbreaking or piracy and actually encourages people who would otherwise buy the game, to pirate it to prevent putting up with their restriction.

If they choose to pirate rather than restore an Apple firmware then that just shows that jailbreakers tend more towards piracy than not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

As far as people who do jailbreak and don't pirate, again, check out the largest community on the net in regards to jailbreaking.  I dare you to post something positive about piracy.  You will be pounced upon.

Ok but if you go to a piracy community you won't be. Look at the Appcake forum, it says 159,000 members - 4.5x more than Reddit and that's just one community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

according to your made up statistic, that means they prevented 10% of their customers from playing the non-pirated version of their game and if you look at the app store reviews ended up with a lot of single-star negative reviews.

That's assuming the 10% would be paying and they won't be. It doesn't matter if a few jailbreakers are leaving negative reviews. The system requirements at the side say the game is compatible with iOS 5 or later. People with jailbroken phones aren't running iOS 5 or later, they're running a hacked firmware so their system doesn't meet the system requirements and have no right to complain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

Look, we're both strongly anti-piracy.  And I'm pro-jailbreak, you're anti-jailbreak, but regardless of either of those two things, you have to admit, their actions, despite having every right to do so, were foolish in terms of the results they were looking for.

I'm not against people jailbreaking their devices, I'm against people thinking they have a right to complain about consequences of the choices they make and think that other people should accommodate those choices.

All the developers have done here is state openly that they don't support jailbroken iOS. If they are implying that jailbreakers are pirates (which they didn't say explicitly), then it encourages the jailbreak community to either stand up against piracy or openly support piracy. If they stand up against it then that has a positive effect. If they turn round and support it, that just proves they were right to try and prevent the game running properly on jailbroken devices.

There's no negative effect for the developers because nobody cares that jailbreakers are upset at paying for a game that doesn't work properly. That's a consequence of a choice they made. If I hacked an XBox to play unofficial copies of games and a new game didn't work on it, I have absolutely no right to complain about it.
post #80 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You suggest that the numbers don't indicate jailbreakers are pirates by saying maybe they're not all bad and buying eventually.

 

No I didn't.  I gave a whole host of reasons why the number you gave is heavily flawed.  The two biggest reasons being that you're quoting the numbers from a disreputable site to begin with, and then ignoring the fact that you don't have to jailbreak to download cracked apps from that site.

 

Quote:
The act of downloading a file via these sites is theft and a significant portion of people who jailbreak are doing it.

 

You have no idea how many people who jailbroke have downloaded any app from that site.

 

Quote:
If that wasn't the case, Appcake, ipastore etc wouldn't be on Cydia and if jailbreakers were so against it, those apps would be banned from Cydia.

 

Appcake and IPAstore aren't on Cydia.  No offense, but I think you're talking a lot about things that you don't know enough about to be making the conclusions that you're making.  You apparently don't really understand how Cydia works.  The developer of Cydia is strongly anti-piracy.  No piracy apps are featured or promoted in Cydia.  The developer of Cydia hosts no pirated apps.  None of the default Cydia repositories host pirated apps.  The apps that used to facilitate piracy on jailbroken devices, such as Installous, were hosted in non-default, 3rd party repositories.  The way Cydia works, they could be no more banned from Cydia than Apple could've banned them from Safari.

 

 

Quote:
If jailbreakers are against piracy, why don't they ban piracy apps and sources from Cydia?

 

For the same reason Apple doesn't ban the piracy of apps.  You're pointing the finger at the wrong people.  I'll say it again because it's directly relevant to this question... you don't have to jailbreak to pirate apps.  The Dev-Team, who have spoken out against piracy, can no more stop piracy on jailbroken devices than Apple can stop piracy on non-jailbroken devices.  And again, Cydia has no sources of piracy any more than saying Safari has sources for piracy.

 

 

Quote:
If they choose to pirate rather than restore an Apple firmware then that just shows that jailbreakers tend more towards piracy than not.

 

No, not at all.   If X% of non-jailbreakers pirate, and X% of jailbreakers pirate, where X=X, then it's foolish to add incentive to either one to benefit in functionality of the app if they pirate versus buy.  In other words, the exact opposite would've been true.  Had the developer restricted non-jailbroken devices on the purchased app, but the pirated app was not restricted, those with non-jailbroken devices would've had the same incentive to pirate.  Whether either side would have to any degree is unknown.

 

 

Quote:
Ok but if you go to a piracy community you won't be. Look at the Appcake forum, it says 159,000 members - 4.5x more than Reddit and that's just one community.

 

Again, you're taking numbers from a disreputable site.  Additionally, you're comparing members on one site where membership is required to participate to subscribers of another site where subscription has nothing to do with participation.  I actively participate in many subreddits that I'm not subscribed to.  But be that as it may what you're saying is that the largest piracy community you can point to is 4.5x larger than the largest jailbreak community.  That sounds like there are a lot of non-jailbreakers that are pirating apps.  The one thing it doesn't prove is that the jailbreaking community is a subset of the piracy community.  Again though, the point remains, go to the jailbreak community and see what they're talking about... it's not piracy.

 

 

Quote:
That's assuming the 10% would be paying and they won't be.

 

That's not the point.  If none of the jailbreakers paid, nobody would've even known about this.  It's precisely because paying jailbreakers bought the game and complained that this is a story at all, and more so that they felt inclined to change things back.

 

Quote:
It doesn't matter if a few jailbreakers are leaving negative reviews.

 

Yes, it very much matters to them.  They dropped an entire star rating.  This lowers them in ranking and has a direct link to sales.

 

 

Quote:
I'm not against people jailbreaking their devices, I'm against people thinking they have a right to complain about consequences of the choices they make and think that other people should accommodate those choices.

 

I totally agree with you there.  Note, I didn't leave a negative review for them.  My point isn't that people had a right to complain, but rather that what the developers did was very foolish.

 

 

Quote:
All the developers have done here is state openly that they don't support jailbroken iOS.

 

No, there's a difference between not supporting something and intentionally disabling something.  In this case, they didn't just find something didn't work, and instead of fixing it say that they weren't going to support it.  They intentionally set about disabling functionality in the app for jailbreakers.  Again, that's their right, and I'd support their right, but it was a very foolish thing to do.

 

 

Quote:
If they are implying that jailbreakers are pirates (which they didn't say explicitly), then it encourages the jailbreak community to either stand up against piracy or openly support piracy.

 

I'm not sure how the jailbreak community is supposed to prevent piracy on non-jailbroken devices.  That's kind of up to Apple (not that I think it's totally possible).  Furthermore, show me where the leaders in the jailbreak community... those that develop the jailbreaks, those that develop Cydia, the larger jailbreak online communities aren't taking a stand against piracy.

 

 

Quote:
There's no negative effect for the developers because nobody cares that jailbreakers are upset at paying for a game that doesn't work properly. That's a consequence of a choice they made.  If I hacked an XBox to play unofficial copies of games and a new game didn't work on it, I have absolutely no right to complain about it.

 

That's the exact failure in logic that these developers made, and then corrected.  The restriction they implemented was entirely non-effective.  The people who were complaining weren't those that jailbroke and pirated, because the pirated version of the game played fine on jailbroken and non-jailbroken devices.  The only people they annoyed were the jailbreakers who wanted to play the paid-for version of the game.

 

So you can say those people have no right to complain, and I agree with that, but there's still the negative impact on the developers because each and every person who was affected by this was a jailbreaker who was trying to play a legitimate paid-for copy of the game or buy the game. 

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