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Square Enix changes stance, will remove 'Deus Ex: The Fall' jailbreak restriction - Page 2

post #41 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Even if the 'customer' was not planning to buy it, piracy is theft. Both legally and morally. Your rationalizations don't change that.

At no point did TBell say that piracy was acceptable and not theft.... what he said was that equating 1 pirated copy with 1 lost sale is not sound reasoning as somebody who is going to the trouble to pirate something that only costs a couple of dollars was very unlikely to ever buy it in the first place.

Meanwhile the original decision by SquareEnix to cripple the game for jailbroken devices without any notification was misguided at best, as would seem to have been proved by the number of complaints they have obviously received from jailbroken users who legitimately paid for the game that has made them perform this u-turn and announce it's removal in a future update..
post #42 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post


It's almost as if they implemented deliberate policies that would ensure they were financially compensated for their work involved in creating the game.

What the f*ck is the world coming to.

 

I hope when they come out with the patch, it also includes metrics to determine how many copies are running on jailbroken devices, then compare it to the number of actual paid copies.

The jailbreak community that actually pirated the games I'm sure are just laughing their smug a$$es off at this.  The developer should have been up-front and honest right on the app-store about not supporting jailbroken phones.  A hugely stupid move on their part.

post #43 of 70
They're just kicking themselves for not being upfront about it with a disclaimer in the description. But I think their first move had the right intent; a developer has no obligation to support jailbroken devices. They just needed to be transparent about it in the first place.
post #44 of 70
I think the majority of people jailbreaking do it to be able to unlock their phone to use with other carriers, and to run software purchased or downloaded from the Cydia store that Apple won't offer (for example, tethering).

It's dangerous to assume that everyone who jailbreaks is a software pirate.
post #45 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

The problem with facts is that they require actual evidence, and there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the claim of "most jailbreakers pirate games" is true. Of course, that doesn't at all seem to limit people claiming otherwise.

Who said anything about facts?

That's why I wrote that I think that most jailbreakers pirate apps.
post #46 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenclaw View Post


It's dangerous to assume that everyone who jailbreaks is a software pirate.

It's not dangerous, it's common sense, and a couple of people posting on a forum is not going to convince me otherwise.

The people who do jailbreak and pirate are either not going to post for obvious reasons, or they are going to lie.

And who said anything about everyone? Strawman much?
post #47 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


The fact is that neither of you knows how many people jailbreak to steal apps so you're both just guessing.

The part in bold is misleading, though. Take some of the 'free" apps which require you to use gems or stars or whatever to buy special items. These gems/stars are often difficult to come by but you can buy them - and they appear to account for substantial revenues for the vendor. There are almost always broken versions of the apps which give you an unlimited supply of gems/stars/etc - and they appear to be widely used. So even if you're not pirating the app itself, there are reasons for jailbreaking - that deprive the developer of revenues.

 

I'm not guessing on how many people jailbreak to steal apps.  I've given no statistic on the matter.  I'm just pointing out that:

1) You don't need to jailbreak to pirate apps on iOS, and never have.

2) Many once popular piracy apps/services that ran on jailbroken devices have shut down and cited "lack of interest".

3) The most popular jailbreak communities (http://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/) have very few comments about piracy at all, and when someone mentions it, they're usually pounced upon by other members.

4) There are tons of videos for the the top reasons to jailbreak available on YouTube, and tons of articles, plus comments in the forums, that don't mention piracy at all, but give hundreds of other reasons why people jailbreak.

5) Nobody here has given any evidence, survey or anything besides talking out of their back end, that any number of people jailbreak to pirate.

 

"The part in bold is misleading, though." 

 

No, it's not.  What you then wrote misses the whole point... You don't have to jailbreak to install pirated apps.  You don't have to jailbreak to install cracked apps that allow for cheats or theft by fake achievement or removes other restrictions.  You don't need to jailbreak to take an app you purchased and edit the plists resulting in cheating or theft by achievement.  Everything you wrote can be done without jailbreaking.  Everything you wrote is easier to do without jailbreaking.

post #48 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post


It's almost as if they implemented deliberate policies that would ensure they were financially compensated for their work involved in creating the game.

What the f*ck is the world coming to.

 

 

No, the problem is that while that's what they intended, what they did would have the opposite effect.

 

Look at it this way.  There is a matrix of 4 people:

 

1) Bought the game, not jailbroken.

2) Bought the game, jailbroken.

3) Pirated the game, not jailbroken.

4) Pirated the game, jailbroken.

 

What they did was restrict the game for users that fell into group #2, and only group #2.  If you were in any of the 3 other groups, your game played just fine.

 

If you're in group #2, you bought the game and were jailbroken, you had these options:

1) Install or update xCon (free, takes seconds, released same day as app).

2) Download a cracked version of the game (and support the pirates).

3) Remove your jailbreak and all of the reasons why you chose to jailbreak.

4) Forget about the game, possibly ask for refund.

 

Which of the 3 do you think someone would choose?  How does any one of those 4 benefit the developer?

 

Now, suppose you haven't bought the game yet, but you're already jailbroken.  You have these options:

1) Install or update xCon (free, takes seconds, released same day as app).

2) Pirate a copy of the game.

3) Remove your jailbreak and all of the reasons why you chose to jailbreak.

4) Don't buy the game.

 

How does any one of those 4 benefit the developer?  Keep in mind, this was a user who went to the store to buy the game, and then realized they were faced with these options.

 

In addition to all of this, the developer has to deal with the complaints, as well as the negative comments and lowered store ratings.

 

None of what I've said should be interpreted as thinking the developer shouldn't implement a strategy to prevent piracy, that people should pirate, that people should ask for refunds in a situation like this, that developers should be required to support jailbroken devices, or anything like that.

 

I'm just pointing out, as I did in comments before they changed, that this was a very foolish idea and would create greater incentive to pirate their game while doing nothing to prevent piracy of it.

post #49 of 70
Hmmm No Editorial????
post #50 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

PCs/Macs allow users to install programs from various sources, including sources that exist predominately for pirating, therefore most PC/Mac owners pirate games.  /s

Ubisoft says so anyway:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-22-ubisoft-has-endured-a-93-95-percent-piracy-rate-on-pc

Machinarium dev says so:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29768/Machinarium_Dev_Saw_Up_To_95

Another dev here says so:

http://www.destructoid.com/game-dev-tycoon-turns-piracy-back-on-the-pirates-252687.phtml

Android devs say so:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-05/02/android-market-game-piracy
http://androidcommunity.com/game-developer-butterscotch-shenanigans-sees-95-piracy-rate-on-android-20130515/

Battlefield 3 torrented for PC 3.5m, for XBox 760k:

http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-games-of-2011-111230/

Sales 2.4m PC, 6.9m XBox:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/40231/battlefield-3/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/35315/battlefield-3/
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut 
Nobody here has given any evidence, survey or anything besides talking out of their back end, that any number of people jailbreak to pirate.

Google for appcake
click the first link
search for angry birds
observe evidence of over 700,000 downloads = piracy due to jailbreaking in one store, many other popular downloads are over 300k

There's also vStore, ipastore, torrents, previously installous, apptrackr.

iOS developers are saying they've tracked jailbroken rates:

http://www.zdnet.com/madfinger-game-goes-free-on-ios-piracy-to-blame-like-on-android-7000002050/

"Another one often repeated is that, while they might have a jailbroken device, they still buy games anyway. Then I do not understand how the number of pirates on iOS is comparable with the amount of jailbroken devices. Of course, I know that some jailbreak users are paying for games as well, but could it be around 1% at the most?"

Do you have figures to show that the number of jailbreakers pirating is insignificant?
post #51 of 70

The fact that jailbroken 2nd gen Apple TVs go for double their original price on eBay probably demonstrates that it's not just pirates who like to jailbreak.

post #52 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Google for appcake
click the first link
search for angry birds
observe evidence of over 700,000 downloads = piracy due to jailbreaking in one store, many other popular downloads are over 300k

There's also vStore, ipastore, torrents, previously installous, apptrackr.

 

I said, "Nobody here has given any evidence, survey or anything besides talking out of their back end, that any number of people jailbreak to pirate."

 

And then you point to the number of self-stated downloads from a disreputable site to begin with, wherein you don't need to jailbreak to download those apps, and use that to somehow show that the reason people jailbreak is to pirate.  Logic doesn't work that way.

 

 

Quote:
iOS developers are saying they've tracked jailbroken rates:

http://www.zdnet.com/madfinger-game-goes-free-on-ios-piracy-to-blame-like-on-android-7000002050/

"Another one often repeated is that, while they might have a jailbroken device, they still buy games anyway. Then I do not understand how the number of pirates on iOS is comparable with the amount of jailbroken devices. Of course, I know that some jailbreak users are paying for games as well, but could it be around 1% at the most?"

 

The article says nothing about developers tracking jailbroken rates.

 

And the article makes some of the same flaws that you are making, that is that you somehow need to jailbreak in order to pirate games on iOS.  You have never needed to.  They have no idea how many people pirated their game who jailbroke first, and are so clueless that they believe you have to jailbreak first.

 

Also, that 1% number is so straight out of his @ss that I'm surprised they didn't color it brown.  Is he suggesting that "around 1% at the most" of Android users bought the app instead of pirating?  If not, why the discrepancy?

 

 

Quote:
Do you have figures to show that the number of jailbreakers pirating is insignificant?

 

No, but I'm not the one making claims that it is.  I'm pointing out that you don't need to jailbreak to pirate, and gee, the most popular jailbreak communities don't have piracy discussions taking place in them, but instead have discussions of all kinds of reasons why people jailbreak that have nothing to do with piracy.

post #53 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

 

And that makes it okay to steal? Is that how you rationalize things?

My comment was in response to another poster who made it seem like every time a pirate downloads software it is akin to a lost sale. This simply is not the case most the time. Moreover, copyright laws are so unfair, I have a hard time feeling bad for large company content providers. 


Edited by TBell - 7/13/13 at 7:01pm
post #54 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

No, but it does mean that you have a very, very high probability of being a person who pirates games.  It's literally the number one reason people jailbreak.

I reject this.  Maybe it is just me, but I jailbroke my iPhone 4.  I have over $40 of Square Enix games (Maybe over $50 in value....hard to tell with "discounts") as well as a lot of other things.  Of the 5 people I know well who have jailbroken Apple hardware, only two, have stolen anything (That I know of) that would otherwise cost money on the app store.

I (At least) jailbroke my phone so that:
1. I could load my own ebooks that I bought elsewhere onto it (I don't know if that is doable without jailbreak however)
2. Wanted over 8 tabs in safari
3. wanted to be able to fully kill mail and other apps (to allow maximum amount of free RAM)
4. wanted to be able to lock my phone horizontally.

If apple offers horizontal locking in iOS I will stop my jailbreak and update to newest iOS.

-QAMF

Active on S}A forums.  S|A student level subscriber.  Don't claim to know what is in the articles.

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Active on S}A forums.  S|A student level subscriber.  Don't claim to know what is in the articles.

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post #55 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

The fact that jailbroken 2nd gen Apple TVs go for double their original price on eBay probably demonstrates that it's not just pirates who like to jailbreak.

 

 

Yes, because you can add cool stuff Apple left off like an Internet browser. 


Edited by TBell - 7/13/13 at 7:09pm
post #56 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMcM76 View Post


At no point did TBell say that piracy was acceptable and not theft.... what he said was that equating 1 pirated copy with 1 lost sale is not sound reasoning as somebody who is going to the trouble to pirate something that only costs a couple of dollars was very unlikely to ever buy it in the first place.

Meanwhile the original decision by SquareEnix to cripple the game for jailbroken devices without any notification was misguided at best, as would seem to have been proved by the number of complaints they have obviously received from jailbroken users who legitimately paid for the game that has made them perform this u-turn and announce it's removal in a future update..

 

 

That was pretty much what I was saying. There is just no way of knowing how many pirated copies of software equate to a lost sale. Some people were not going to buy it anyway, some people once they downloaded the software never use it (they are just collecting software), some people try software once (hate the software, and discard it), and some studies have suggested pirating actually increases sales of software (people pirate the software to see if they like it, and if they do buy it). 

 

My main point was people like to start from the unvalidated premise that pirating software is causing significant harm to content providers. 

post #57 of 70

Hm, i seem unable to view the post I made, but I forgot to mention that this shows that jailbroken phones have either quite a bit of pull over game developers, or that this is seen as the public by bad PR.

-QAMF

Active on S}A forums.  S|A student level subscriber.  Don't claim to know what is in the articles.

Reply

Active on S}A forums.  S|A student level subscriber.  Don't claim to know what is in the articles.

Reply
post #58 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


Who said anything about facts?

That's why I wrote that I think that most jailbreakers pirate apps.

That's a wonderfully honest statement, although I'm not too sure one should be proud that one thinks something without any factual evidence to back up that view.

post #59 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

PCs/Macs allow users to install programs from various sources, including sources that exist predominately for pirating, therefore most PC/Mac owners pirate games.  /s

It's more meaningful to consider PC/Mac gamers, who comprise a small subset of all PC/Mac owners.

post #60 of 70
Gazoobee,
Seriously, how did you come up with that? I've never had someone come up to me and ask me why I jailbreak. I don't pirate my apps. I find it funny that square wants to alienate a paying customer. Great business move...
post #61 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Developers test apps against certain operating systems / firmwares. If the system you use is modified, they are not obliged to support it. An operating system hack could affect the running of the game, which their support staff has to deal with.

 

Companies don't have to support problems on non supported platforms, you are right there. But disabling the product, that's more complicated, even if its 1%, 1% of 1,000,000 is 10,000, but I guess 1% of 1,000 isn't that much, those 10 people can go **** themselves, right? People who don't see the value of something, no matter the excuse won't pay for it anyway. Companies fight piracy, some fight it very well, like Blizzard and Valve with Steam, I think those are great ways, provide people who are legitimate customers more value, I haven't been a Blizz customer for a long time, apparently plenty of people still love it all.

 

I forgot about Dead Trigger, your link reminded me, that game was already free when I tried it, but it really wasn't playable beyond the tutorial if you didn't buy something in app, the starter weapons were ridiculously underpowered and you didn't have enough bullets. The game was more like a demo, but it was sold as a free to play game, it is that, but at the same time it was a huge download of the tutorial, you really do have to pay to start playing, it wasn't too honest of them I thought. And imo it wasn't a good game, as in the game play and the fun factor.

post #62 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


That was pretty much what I was saying. There is just no way of knowing how many pirated copies of software equate to a lost sale. Some people were not going to buy it anyway, some people once they downloaded the software never use it (they are just collecting software), some people try software once (hate the software, and discard it), and some studies have suggested pirating actually increases sales of software (people pirate the software to see if they like it, and if they do buy it). 

My main point was people like to start from the unvalidated premise that pirating software is causing significant harm to content providers. 

Arguing that the loss of revenue is uncertain is not really relevant.

The fact is that it's still stolen property and the people who pirate the software have no right to it. If I own something, I have the right to control it and keep people from stealing it - even if they were not going to pay me money under any scenario. It's a simple property rights issue.

And even the argument that piracy might increase sales is irrelevant. Even if it were true (and the experience with the record industry suggests that it's not), I, as copyright owner, get to make the choice of whether I want to allow someone a free trial. The non-purchaser does not have the right to make that decision.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #63 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Yes, because you can add cool stuff Apple left off like an Internet browser. 

 

Ah yes, the niche use cases for TV appliances. Clearly Apple is failing to compete.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #64 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

I think you are being too harsh and making some blanket statements that aren't supported by any facts.

 

...

 

The kind of person who generally does this is the kind of person who has no morals, and has committed many other minor or major crimes in their lives. 

 

Perhaps you should follow your own advice.

post #65 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

Ah yes, the niche use cases for TV appliances. Clearly Apple is failing to compete.

 

 

Wow, way to pull the thread. 

 

The point was made that most people jailbreak to pirate apps and that there weren't the same legitimate reasons to jailbreak anymore.  This was countered with the fact that you don't need to jailbreak to pirate apps on iOS, and made further to the point that Apple TV 2nd Gen commands a higher price on eBay because it's capable of being jailbroken, despite the fact there are absolutely zero apps that can be pirated for it.  While there are far fewer reasons to jailbreak an Apple TV than an iPhone or iPad, the reasons that remain are significant enough in the marketplace to result in a demand for the 2nd Gen and a bump in pricing for it.  One person mentioned being able to install apps like an Internet browser, and you turned it into a sarcastic "Clearly Apple is failing to compete."

 

Nice job.

 

The point remains though.  Clearly people are jailbreaking for reasons that have nothing to do with piracy.  You can believe those of us who are saying this here or choose not to believe us because somehow we have incentive to lie.  You can visit the top jailbreaking communities and see what they're talking about... and I dare you to mention piracy (see: http://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/).  You can search YouTube for videos or Google for articles showing all the reasons why people jailbreak that have nothing to do with piracy.  You can look at jailbreak-only apps and services that used to exist for piracy that have all shut down, while services that don't require jailbreaking for piracy continue to operate.  And you can look at the fact that enough people are jailbreaking the Apple TV, that the 2nd generation is commanding a higher price despite there being no apps to pirate for it.

post #66 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

No, but it does mean that you have a very, very high probability of being a person who pirates games.  It's literally the number one reason people jailbreak.

 

No. Not at all. There are MANY reasons to jailbreak aside from pirating. Examples include wanting to change your default web browser, wanting to tether on occasion without getting double-dipped by AT&T, wanting to customize your UI.

 

I have had 3 jailbroken phones and have never pirated an app. Why would I pirate? Most games are free and the few that are not only cost $1 or $2. It's not even close to being worth the trouble to pirate.

 

You guys are all assuming, without any data at all, that jailbreak = pirate. And that's just unadulterated B.S. Which is why these A.I. forums are such a laughingstock on other forums. A.I. has a lot of regulars who post before they think, if they think at all. It's pathetic.

post #67 of 70
Come and join the best Deus Ex: The Fall forum in hot discussion with a thousand others about any thing related to Deus Ex: The Fall. If you need an overall appraisal of the game, Search AppsGoer to get a full review.
post #68 of 70
Come and join the best Deus Ex: The Fall forum in hot discussion with a thousand others about any thing related to Deus Ex: The Fall. If you need an overall appraisal of the game, Search AppsGoer to get a full review.
post #69 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

No, but it does mean that you have a very, very high probability of being a person who pirates games.  It's literally the number one reason people jailbreak.

 

It's literally not even in my top 166 reasons why I jailbroke:

0. 7-zip (POSIX)
1. Activator
2. AirBlue Sharing
3. AirBlue Stack
4. AirFloat
5. Airplane SBSettings Toggle
6. AnyAttach
7. AppInfo
8. AppList
9. APR (/usr/lib)
10. APT 0.6 Transitional
11. APT 0.7 (apt-key)
12. APT 0.7 HTTPS Method
13. APT 0.7 Strict
14. APT 0.7 Strict (lib)
15. AptBackup
16. AssistantEnhancer
17. AssistantExtensions
18. atom
19. Autolock SBSettings
20. Barrel
21. basic-cmds
22. Berkeley DB
23. BigBoss Icon Set
24. Bourne-Again SHell
25. Bridge
26. Bubbles Pro LivePaper
27. bzip2
28. CleverPin
29. Core Utilities
30. Core Utilities (/bin)
31. cURL
32. CustomSpotlightAction
33. CustomWidgetIcons
34. Cyueue
35. Darwin Tools
36. DataMonitor
37. Dater
38. Debian Packager
39. Debian Utilities
40. Default HD SBSettings
41. Diff Utilities
42. diskdev-cmds
43. Do Not Disturb Toggle
44. Earth LivePaper
45. Erica Utilities
46. evasi0n 6.0-6.1.2 Untether
47. Fast Forward
48. file-cmds
49. Find Utilities
50. Five Icon Dock
51. Five-Column SpringBoard
52. Flex
53. Flipswitch
54. FolderEnhancer
55. Forecast
56. Gawk
57. gettext
58. glib
59. GNU Cryptography
60. GNU Privacy Guard
61. GnuPG Errors
62. Gremlin Activities for iOS6
63. Gremlin Framework
64. Gremlin Plugin Pack
65. grep
66. gzip
67. Harlem Shake
68. iCaughtU Pro
69. iCleaner Pro
70. IconSupport
71. iFile
72. iForum
73. Insomnia
74. Insomnia Toggle
75. iOS 6 ColorfulStatusbar
76. iSHSHit
77. iSlideText
78. iWebSearch Pro
79. LayerSnapshotter
80. less
81. libaiml
82. libdisplaystack
83. libgpod
84. libhide
85. libid3tag
86. libplist
87. libstatusbar
88. libxml2
89. libxml2 Library
90. libzip
91. LivePapers
92. LZMA Utils
93. mDNSResponder
94. MFMusicLibrary.framework
95. Mobile Substrate
96. MobileTerminal
97. Music4Me
98. MxTube
99. My TraceRoute
100. My3G
101. myTunes
102. MyWi 6
103. MyWi 6.0 (iOS 6 Library)
104. MyWi OnDemand
105. N Stats for NotificationCenter
106. Net Talk Toggle
107. Netatalk
108. network-cmds
109. New Curses
110. Nexus LivePaper
111. Nitrous
112. NoCoverFlow
113. OpenBackup
114. OpenSSH
115. OpenSSL
116. PAM (Apple)
117. PAM Modules
118. PandoraSkips
119. pandy
120. pcre
121. pincrush
122. PreferenceLoader
123. Profile Directory
124. ProTube
125. ProTube HD
126. Pull To Dismiss
127. readline
128. RecordMyScreen (App)
129. SandCastle 2
130. SBSettings
131. sbsettingstoggles
132. sed
133. Serious SBSettings HD
134. shell-cmds
135. ShowCase
136. Shrink
137. Signal 2
138. SleepFX
139. SMS Timestamps
140. SpotDict
141. SpringBoardAccess
142. SpringFlash
143. Substrate Safe Mode
144. Swipebright
145. SwipeSelection
146. symbolicate
147. system-cmds
148. Tape Archive
149. top
150. UIKit Tools
151. Unfold
152. Universal TV
153. unrar
154. WebSearch
155. WeeLoader
156. WeePreferenceLoader
157. WeeSearch Pro for NotificationCenter
158. whois
159. WiFi Analyzer
160. WiFiFoFum
161. WinterBoard
162. xCon
163. YFiSelect 5.0+
164. YourTube for iOS6
165. Zephyr
 

If that list seems like a lot, it isn't, not compared to most jailbreakers I come across.  That list doesn't include my own apps and tweaks that I side-loaded.  I also have about 400 apps from iTunes on my iPhone that are either freeware or paid for.

post #70 of 70
It's got nothing to do with why I jailbroke my iPhones. I do it to put in apps that Apple wouldn't approve -- and I BUY those from Cydia, etc.
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