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Editorial: Google's Android haunted by Steve Jobs' warnings on app signing security - Page 5

post #161 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

As PC World wrote, "While malware in the Play Store isn't anything new, it's concerning to see such an app make it into Apple's walled garden" That was last summer, and iOS 6 has since stopped apps from accessing contacts without asking permission. So its an issue Apple solved on iOS, and one that Google can't fix if it wanted to on the Android "platform."

 

The "FinFisher" malware is also cross platform malware, but its iOS version requires manual installation with a developer signed app and an ad-hoc distribution profile, so its something you'd have to really search for. 

 

But it is interesting that you guys have such a blind reference for supporting Android that you can ignore the quite apparent status quo of the malware-teeming Google Play store, dismiss core architectural flaws as non-important, wave away first party malware/spyware from Samsung, pretend that there is some significant and legitimate market for APKs, and then turn around and say hey! I found two reports of stuff nobody can install today from last summer on the web for iOS!!!

First of all I own and use an iPhone not an Android so I have no idea where that came from.  I don't blindly support or advocate Android or iOS/iPhone for that matter. I have complaints about both. iOS 7 looks to have answered most of my wish list for iOS and if Apple releases a larger display I won't have anything left to complain about.

 

I simply pointed out that iOS has not been immune as that other poster suggested. I understand that there is a lot more malware on Android and never said any different. But some has existed for iOS whether it was patched or not and whether it requires an idiot user to install. Most Android malware also require a pretty dumb user to seek it out and install so no real difference there. 

 

People on Android that only use the Google Play store and keep the "unknown sources" checked are very unlikely to ever suffer from malware. They should probably be a bit more careful monitoring permissions that apps use and also might want to use Avast as an extra precaution but it is not quite as dangerous as you make it sound. 

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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post #162 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi View Post

 

 

Perhaps irrelevant flaws doesn't quite fit for what I'm thinking of, which is more in line with outright falsehoods, but I left the wording from your other post.  Anyway, from this thread:

 

1. I am a developer. Been for many years. Practice described above is rare on other platforms, but can be found on Android for obvious reason. It makes Android development even more costly and complicated. Most of all, this is not welcomed by neither: developers and users.

 

 

3. Tablet is a key essential for a good educational software. You statement confirms what you disagreed with.

Vast majority of users don't want to change default things or even the default apps.

 

 

5.  I agree malware is not special problem on Android, because businesses generally don't use it. If you don't see the numbers of infections, that doesn't mean there aren't any. Those, who could report of it are the root source of it and are keeping silent with a purpose.

 

1.  I can't really comment as I'm not a developer, but I suspect that fragmented API support does raise costs somewhat.

 

3.  I wasn't confirming what I disagreed with.  I was agreeing with part and disagreeing with another part.  I think you're underestimating the number of users who replace default apps on Android.  The system makes it so easy that it's incredibly common.  For example let's look at keyboards.  Swiftkey has been installed between 11M and 55M times.  GO Keyboard has been installed between 10M and 50M times.  AItype has been installed 5M to 10M times.  Swype has been installed between 100K and 500K times.

 

5.  I agree that malware exists, but is not a problem.

post #163 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post

First, I didn't say that malware was nonexistent.  I said it wasn't a problem.  There is a difference between those two.

And to humor you, I read all of the links on the first results page.  Guess what?  It confirmed what I said before.  All the numbers for malware threats are from companies selling anti-malware software.
I never said you did say that malware was non-exsistent.

Humor but not actually read correct? Nice to see you so dismissive of malware regardless of tbe source.
post #164 of 183

The second headline says that DED interviewed Steve Jobs about native application programming before the iPhone was released in 2007.  Maybe I missed it, but based on what was in the article he stood at an open mic and asked SJ a single question with no follow-up.  Can this really count as an interview?

post #165 of 183
When you claim that one question asked of Steve jobs at a podium is a "interview" and you create a alter ego account to defend your article, clearly the problem isn't necessarily the "facts" of your editorials, it is the size of your ego. Write your article, post and don't look back if you cant stand the criticism.
post #166 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran View Post

I never said you did say that malware was non-exsistent. Reading comprehension beyond you?

Humor but not actually read correct? Nice to see you so dismissive of malware regardless of tbe source.

Apparently my reading comprehension is no worse than yours. I told you I read the links. I don't dismiss the idea that malware could be problematic. I dismiss the idea that it is problematic. None of the articles gave rates of infection, only percentage increases in malware. Why does that matter? Because 5 incidents is a 400% increase over 1 instance. Is 5 incidents cause for concern? No. On the other hand 50,000,000 is an equal percentage increase over 10,000,000 and would be cause for concern (even 10M is concerning). You see?

As for being critical of the source, that's a basic tenet of research. You discount the credibility of sources who stand to gain from presenting information of a certain type.
post #167 of 183
Thanks for labeling it as editorial...

Long FB, AMZN
Schlong AAPL

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Long FB, AMZN
Schlong AAPL

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post #168 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Easy fix, don't read the comments.

Point taken. I consider myself advised.

Truth be told, I rarely read AI article comments. That's not why I come to this site.

Dan's longtime site, on the other hand, often generates interesting reader feedback, and I made the mistake of assuming that such would be the case here. What I find instead are people such as yourself, who provide simplistic responses and pretend that such trolls are clever. 

Dan, please return to posting at your old site, so I can avoid dasanman69 and others of his ilk.

post #169 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by macsdounix View Post

Point taken. I consider myself advised.
Truth be told, I rarely read AI article comments. That's not why I come to this site.
Dan's longtime site, on the other hand, often generates interesting reader feedback, and I made the mistake of assuming that such would be the case here. What I find instead are people such as yourself, who provide simplistic responses and pretend that such trolls are clever. 
Dan, please return to posting at your old site, so I can avoid dasanman69 and others of his ilk.

I didn't think I was clever I just thought it unwise of you to complain about something that won't change. I reserve my complaints when I can get results any thing else is a waste of energy.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"I got the answer by talking in my brain and I agreed of the answer my brain got" a 7 yr old explaining his math HW
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post #170 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

I was wondering about that. In fact, I remember the another shareholder writing about DED's 'interview'. He was very annoyed that DED acted like a dick to get the microphone in order to ask a question that had very little to do with the shareholders' meeting.

Asking about 3rd party apps has little to do with a late 2007 Apple Shareholder meeting??
post #171 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post


Apparently my reading comprehension is no worse than yours. I told you I read the links. I don't dismiss the idea that malware could be problematic. I dismiss the idea that it is problematic. None of the articles gave rates of infection, only percentage increases in malware. Why does that matter? Because 5 incidents is a 400% increase over 1 instance. Is 5 incidents cause for concern? No. On the other hand 50,000,000 is an equal percentage increase over 10,000,000 and would be cause for concern (even 10M is concerning). You see?

As for being critical of the source, that's a basic tenet of research. You discount the credibility of sources who stand to gain from presenting information of a certain type.

 

Sorry, but this "could be" and "is" have become a straw grasping here... You made an statement, an observation, that was far too much black&white and you are trying to save your credibility by analyzing every word and letter, interpreting them in your favor. Just admit your statement was too strong.

 

Android HAS a problem with malware and so-called "open" architecture, because that prevents it from mass deployment for any kind of serious use in any kind of institution or company. While touting loud its openness, it's actually closed to any serious users. People who don't grasp simple facts that:

 

- developers do not want to deal again with piracy once they started to sell massively few buck per piece

- managers do not want to hire another 5 IT infrastructure admins on top of existing 10 just to deal with Android

- most of the users don't want to deal with device in a way they deal with PC, t.i. with help of some relative geek who reinstalls the crap every few months, once they have tried better

 

simply don't understand the issue. I agree most of the private users who don't even know, what is not to tackle with your computer once in a while and just work in piece and productivity, will always prefer large screen over  any kind of security issue, but this is only one part of the market. Android is cut off the other part and that it why this is the issue for Android. Much greater issue that iPhone being cut from large screen market.

post #172 of 183
Android needs at least five years in terms of security. That is sort of similar to the case that Microsoft spent years developing a secure operating system. However; when I look at the average Android users (not business users), they have of course problems, but they don't pertain to security. I think the security issue is somewhat exaggrated by die hard Apple fans. Android is now a platform that is as important as iOS and that is unchangable in short term.
post #173 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi View Post

 

Sorry, but this "could be" and "is" have become a straw grasping here... You made an statement, an observation, that was far too much black&white and you are trying to save your credibility by analyzing every word and letter, interpreting them in your favor. Just admit your statement was too strong.

 

Android HAS a problem with malware and so-called "open" architecture, because that prevents it from mass deployment for any kind of serious use in any kind of institution or company. While touting loud its openness, it's actually closed to any serious users. People who don't grasp simple facts that:

 

- developers do not want to deal again with piracy once they started to sell massively few buck per piece

- managers do not want to hire another 5 IT infrastructure admins on top of existing 10 just to deal with Android

- most of the users don't want to deal with device in a way they deal with PC, t.i. with help of some relative geek who reinstalls the crap every few months, once they have tried better

 

simply don't understand the issue. I agree most of the private users who don't even know, what is not to tackle with your computer once in a while and just work in piece and productivity, will always prefer large screen over  any kind of security issue, but this is only one part of the market. Android is cut off the other part and that it why this is the issue for Android. Much greater issue that iPhone being cut from large screen market.

 

It's not straw grasping at all.  It's the difference between the hypothetical and the actual.  You agree that there is a difference don't you?  I originally said that it isn't a problem, and I haven't pivoted from that in any way.

 

And what do you mean interpreting facts in my favor?  I gave a simple example of how a percentage change with no actual numbers is only minimally useful for analysis.  Have you ever taken a scientific lab course, done a research paper, or done an analysis on a business entity?  It sounds to me like you may not have.  I did though.  I did two years of studying biology, chemistry, and physics because I was planning to go to medical school.  Then I switched into business school.  The things I said are basics of research and analysis.  They apply in any field that requires objective decision-making.


Edited by wakefinance - 7/16/13 at 5:29pm
post #174 of 183

Android is Windows on a mobile phone and is crap as a result, a Ad company will not get it in done in the long run and that also applies to a low margin retail company called Amazon their tech movements are parasitic. Me to with no profit on hardware won't work forever.

post #175 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post

 

It's not straw grasping at all.  It's the difference between the hypothetical and the actual.  You agree that there is a difference don't you?  I originally said that it isn't a problem, and I haven't pivoted from that in any way.

 

And what do you mean interpreting facts in my favor?  I gave a simple example of how a percentage change with no actual numbers is only minimally useful for analysis.  Have you ever taken a scientific lab course, done a research paper, or done an analysis on a business entity?  It sounds to me like you may not have.  I did though.  I did two years of studying biology, chemistry, and physics because I was planning to go to medical school.  Then I switched into business school.  The things I said are basics of research and analysis.  They apply in any field that requires objective decision-making.

 

Don't presume what other people have done in the past or what they haven't. Presume you are not the only one going to faculty. Some of us have graduated in software engineering or even perhaps much more...but I find this irrelevant here. It's about common sense and analytical dialectic.

 

You can boast with your objective decision-making, but you haven't answered a single point from my quite an analytical posting above, meaning either you are just avoiding to admit you are wrong or you simply don't have a clue. Most probably both. Your vanity is in vain here, because there are no evidence to support your claim or counter mine. You missed the point completely and know trying to escape through a mouse hole with ridiculous stories about you trying different stuff. Who cares about that. Argument discussion is what counts here. 


Edited by poksi - 7/16/13 at 9:16pm
post #176 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickimsonik View Post

Android needs at least five years in terms of security. That is sort of similar to the case that Microsoft spent years developing a secure operating system. However; when I look at the average Android users (not business users), they have of course problems, but they don't pertain to security. I think the security issue is somewhat exaggrated by die hard Apple fans. Android is now a platform that is as important as iOS and that is unchangable in short term.

 

Which Microsoft OS is secure? How do you make a secure system? By consistently and systematically patching the holes to other than yourself or you rather make a system without ones? 

 

Android is irrelevant as professional mobile platform, so you will really have a hard time to persuade anyone except fandroids that Android is as important as iOS, although I don't even understand what is your point with that. Important for who? Business users, housewives, young people, software pirates, developers, gamers, old retired people?

 

Read rather my post above and make an post with arguments instead of shallow claims without any kind of ground below it.

post #177 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi View Post

Don't presume what other people have done in the past or what they haven't. Presume you are not the only one going to faculty. Some of us have graduated in software engineering or even perhaps much more...but I find this irrelevant here. It's about common sense and analytical dialectic.

You can boast with your objective decision-making, but you haven't answered a single point from my quite an analytical posting above, meaning either you are just avoiding to admit you are wrong or you simply don't have a clue. Most probably both. Your vanity is in vain here, because there are no evidence to support your claim or counter mine. You missed the point completely and know trying to escape through a mouse hole with ridiculous stories about you trying different stuff. Who cares about that. Argument discussion is what counts here. 

I didn't presume that you had no analytical background. I asked if you had and simply said that you may not. If you don't mind me asking, is English your second language? I'm genuinely asking, not making a derogatory remark. I'm asking because this is the second time you have missed a nuanced distinction in a sentence by misreading the tense of a verb I used. I hope I don't offend you by asking.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I didn't respond to anything after the first paragraph of your post because it was outside the scope of the discussion and seemed speculative. We originally were talking about whether or not there was proof of a malware problem. I argued that there were no numbers to back up such a claim. You listed several reasons as to why and how malware could be problematic, but didn't provide any numbers to prove that there was a real problem. I don't disagree with you that what you listed would be some of the issues surrounding a malware problem. Unfortunately what you wrote doesn't address the topic of whether or not malware infections exist with any concerning magnitude.
Edited by wakefinance - 7/17/13 at 1:21am
post #178 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post


I didn't presume that you had no analytical background. I asked if you had and simply said that you may not. If you don't mind me asking, is English your second language? I'm genuinely asking, not making a derogatory remark. I'm asking because this is the second time you have missed a nuanced distinction in a sentence by misreading the tense of a verb I used. I hope I don't offend you by asking.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I didn't respond to anything after the first paragraph of your post because it was outside the scope of the discussion and seemed speculative. We originally were talking about whether or not there was proof of a malware problem. I argued that there were no numbers to back up such a claim. You listed several reasons as to why and how malware could be problematic, but didn't provide any numbers to prove that there was a real problem. I don't disagree with you that what you listed would be some of the issues surrounding a malware problem. Unfortunately what you wrote doesn't address the topic of whether or not malware infections exist with any concerning magnitude.

 

English is my 3rd language, I feel no offended by being asked about it, however, even my lacking of being able to delicately grasp the exact meaning of every single word does not change the fact that you are avoiding to confront or counter my claims. As far as numbers, it is easy enough to google or yahoo android malware numbers and figure out there is malware. A lots of it. Primary reason in non-sandboxed environment. Claiming that this is the primary reason for Android not being massively adopted in businesses is everything but speculation. Again, google for it. read what people say, or simply give back counter argument. Or, even better, you come up with numbers, if you like them so much, or believe pure numbers are sole evidence of something.

 

My company develops solutions for iOS and Android. THe latest is specialized mobile payment terminal. It's being developed on iOS only. Explicit demand of the customer, I hope you know what was the reason the stated.  

 

I'd say it is not even speculative, but very insincere to claim this is not a problem for Android. 

post #179 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by poksi View Post

English is my 3rd language, I feel no offended by being asked about it, however, even my lacking of being able to delicately grasp the exact meaning of every single word does not change the fact that you are avoiding to confront or counter my claims. As far as numbers, it is easy enough to google or yahoo android malware numbers and figure out there is malware. A lots of it. Primary reason in non-sandboxed environment. Claiming that this is the primary reason for Android not being massively adopted in businesses is everything but speculation. Again, google for it. read what people say, or simply give back counter argument. Or, even better, you come up with numbers, if you like them so much, or believe pure numbers are sole evidence of something.

My company develops solutions for iOS and Android. THe latest is specialized mobile payment terminal. It's being developed on iOS only. Explicit demand of the customer, I hope you know what was the reason the stated.  

I'd say it is not even speculative, but very insincere to claim this is not a problem for Android. 

Wow three languages is impressive! I'm only fluent in two (maybe 1.5 is more accurate because I find speaking Spanish much more difficult than reading and writing).

The bottom line is that malware exists on Android. In your link I saw references to the number of malware apps, but that is not the number of infections. For the average android user, I don't think malware is a problem. I've gotten two infections on the boot camp partition on my MBP and zero infections on my Nexus. I use my phone for hours each day and I use the Windows partition on my laptop rarely. That's anecdotal evidence, but I think it speaks to the security of Android and/or the lack of a widespread malware problem.

I think we've about exhausted this topic and are clearly not going to be satisfied by each other's arguments, so let's call it a tie 1wink.gif. Till next time!
post #180 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post


Wow three languages is impressive! I'm only fluent in two (maybe 1.5 is more accurate because I find speaking Spanish much more difficult than reading and writing).

The bottom line is that malware exists on Android. In your link I saw references to the number of malware apps, but that is not the number of infections. For the average android user, I don't think malware is a problem. I've gotten two infections on the boot camp partition on my MBP and zero infections on my Nexus. I use my phone for hours each day and I use the Windows partition on my laptop rarely. That's anecdotal evidence, but I think it speaks to the security of Android and/or the lack of a widespread malware problem.

I think we've about exhausted this topic and are clearly not going to be satisfied by each other's arguments, so let's call it a tie 1wink.gif. Till next time!

 

Agreed :)

 

German is my 4th language. 1wink.gif

post #181 of 183
What was not mentioned is the implications of this for companies migrating to or operating with BYOD policies.

The multiple flavors of Android create a lot of headaches in maintaining network security policies and create essentially unsolvable vulnerability problems when you can't direct users to upgrade their devices with bug fixes that are simply not available.

With iOS we can simply invoke the requirement users keep their devices up to date, notify them when patch/upgrades are released and set a deadline for it with notifications as they approach a deadline.

Because of this, our company is considering restricting policy on Android to just Nexus devices, which we can enforce reasonably strict policy that can be complied with and banning other flavors. However, we have not adopted this policy yet as the implications for our users are great, since more than 60% or users are Android and few have Nexus devices.

Consequentially, we "like" iOS users (more than half of IT staff use iOS) and the dwindling oldsters still using company issued BBY's (that are going away when their devices die).

In viewpoint of this situation, it's actually easy to understand why more large corporations have come into the iOS camp with iPads and iPhones. Not only can you develop and distribute company apps with confidence, but administrating BYOD network policy is a lot simpler.

To be honest, when Apple first announced intention to pursue the corporate market with iPhone I was very skeptical they could make inroads against RIM, which was then quite firmly entrenched because of the security and administrative features of BBY Server, and because of Apple's past spotty record supporting corporate users.

Times have changed.
post #182 of 183

Considering how some of the strengths of IOS and its ecosystem goes back to as far as 10+ years, I sometimes wonder just how much of it was premeditated and the result of incredible foresight, and how much was simply pure, dumb luck and simply having the right tool at the right time. 

post #183 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by abazigal View Post

Considering how some of the strengths of IOS and its ecosystem goes back to as far as 10+ years, I sometimes wonder just how much of it was premeditated and the result of incredible foresight, and how much was simply pure, dumb luck and simply having the right tool at the right time. 

I'd say it's both.
"I got the answer by talking in my brain and I agreed of the answer my brain got" a 7 yr old explaining his math HW
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"I got the answer by talking in my brain and I agreed of the answer my brain got" a 7 yr old explaining his math HW
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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