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80% of reduced iPad shipments attributable to channel inventory decline - Page 2

post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


... but note that they decline to explain how they arrive at it. It could be no more than a very educated guess. Still it's more than others do.

One reason that Apple does more than what others do because they have more data - from their own stores.

post #42 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrzejls View Post


Relic,

We have here to many idiots that will argue this point to no end. My question is; does really mater?. Every company will produce reports that will put them in best possible light. Here on AI so called "experts" will tell you their "facts" of what Apple or Samsung do. I wonder why Apple did not hire them yet?

Actually, Apple has hired the occasional "analyst".

post #43 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Actually, Apple has hired the occasional "analyst".

Apple even uses analyst reports as reference in their discussion/explanation of quarterly results. For instance Apple CFO Peter Oppenheimer used IDC analyst reports, oft-ridiculed by some forum members here at AI, as proof of Apple's success in the Japanese market.

His quote: "IDC Japan announced iPhone gained the number one position. This is the first time a non-Japanese company has achieved the number-one spot for a year... unprecedented for a non-Japanese company."

Tim Cook also cites them when it's beneficial. One of his quotes from the previous quarter:
"The numbers we've seen from IDC would indicate the market in March declined 30% from December. As you can see from our numbers we declined 15%. If that holds we did much better than the market and had a very nice pickup in market share."
Edited by Gatorguy - 7/24/13 at 5:19am
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post #44 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

There are now two iPad products rather than just one. Yet, Apple is selling fewer than one year ago.

 

You seem to be ignoring the 42 million iPads sold in the previous two quarters. (since the iPad mini launch)

post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

 

You seem to be ignoring the 42 million iPads sold in the previous two quarters. (since the iPad mini launch)

 

Nope.

post #46 of 84

Another consideration: Back in January, Tim Cook suggested that 2012 decline in Mac sales could be a one-time thing. The last two quarters have proven him wrong in part (arguably, Mac sales have stagnated rather than dropping significantly; and maybe it's not fair to judge the impact of the new MBA too early). He's still rationalizing that Mac sales are declining more slowly than the rest of PC industry. That's fair. But where is the money going? Not all into iPads, it would seem. 

post #47 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

 

Nope.

 

"Yet, Apple is selling fewer than one year ago"

 

But not selling fewer, over the whole time period since the iPad mini launch. 3 quarters. I make it around 28% increase in sales.

 

So.... "Yes."

post #48 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Another consideration: Back in January, Tim Cook suggested that 2012 decline in Mac sales could be a one-time thing. The last two quarters have proven him wrong in part (arguably, Mac sales have stagnated rather than dropping significantly; and maybe it's not fair to judge the impact of the new MBA too early). He's still rationalizing that Mac sales are declining more slowly than the rest of PC industry. That's fair. But where is the money going? Not all into iPads, it would seem. 

It's not going anywhere, people are holding on to their desktop machines longer. A 3 year old i5 or i7 is still plenty of performance for the average user. Heck I even have a iLamp G4 1.25Ghz, 2GB Ram that's perfect for surfing and listening to music, I still think it's one of the coolest looking computers I have ever owned.

Look how cute it is, I just want to hug it...

Edited by Relic - 7/24/13 at 9:15am
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post #49 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

 

But not selling fewer, over the whole time period since the iPad mini launch. 3 quarters. I make it around 28% increase in sales.

 

So.... "Yes."

 

So you get to tell me what I am ignoring or not ignoring? You get to tell me what periods I want to compare? Really?

post #50 of 84
No, this does not make sense.

Apple has always reported SALES and not SHIPMENTS. In fact it has occasionally pointed out that other vendors do report shipments, and sometimes inflate them by channel-stuffing.

The shipments may be down but that is just routine pre-update drawdown.
post #51 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by plovell View Post

No, this does not make sense.

Apple has always reported SALES and not SHIPMENTS. In fact it has occasionally pointed out that other vendors do report shipments, and sometimes inflate them by channel-stuffing.

The shipments may be down but that is just routine pre-update drawdown.

No.

post #52 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Apple even uses analyst reports as reference in their discussion/explanation of quarterly results. For instance Apple CFO Peter Oppenheimer used IDC analyst reports, oft-ridiculed by some forum members here at AI, as proof of Apple's success in the Japanese market.

His quote: "IDC Japan announced iPhone gained the number one position. This is the first time a non-Japanese company has achieved the number-one spot for a year... unprecedented for a non-Japanese company."

Tim Cook also cites them when it's beneficial. One of his quotes from the previous quarter:
"The numbers we've seen from IDC would indicate the market in March declined 30% from December. As you can see from our numbers we declined 15%. If that holds we did much better than the market and had a very nice pickup in market share."

When analysts report potential production problems, Cook tells the world not to listen. But when stats are in Apple's favor, he doesn't hesitate in citing them. This sort of cherry-picking of "analysis" does make me cringe a bit. Sure, every other company does it, too. But I expect Apple to be above it.

post #53 of 84
Aha! Now I get it, so the iPad situation might not be that bad after all. Its my favourite Apple device.
post #54 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

oh, this could still mean we get launches in september indeed.  I need to find is exact words

Update:  yep, he actually said it will be done in october, so september is where the launches will take place. CNBC had this one wrong, they told launches would not happen until october.
CNBC got it wrong, you say? Why am I not surprised....

What WOULD surprise me is if they made a meaningful retraction.
post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

 

So you get to tell me what I am ignoring or not ignoring? You get to tell me what periods I want to compare? Really?

 

You can compare what the hell you want. I simply pointed out that you compared ONE out of THREE possible quarters (where Apple sold 2 distinct iPad models). You chose to ignore the two quarters that showed substantial unit growth. 

 

Your "Nope" reply was untrue. 

post #56 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

 

You can compare what the hell you want. I simply pointed out that you compared ONE out of THREE possible quarters (where Apple sold 2 distinct iPad models). You chose to ignore the two quarters that showed substantial unit growth. 

 

Your "Nope" reply was untrue. 

Nope.

 

You're being about as trollish as it gets but that's ok. I understand it's sort of a pastime for some. Carry on.


Edited by ankleskater - 7/24/13 at 11:09am
post #57 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

You're very welcome.  This article might also be helpful:

 

http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/28/shipped-and-sold-a-brief-introduction/

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plovell View Post

No, this does not make sense.

Apple has always reported SALES and not SHIPMENTS.

 

Correct, Apple reports sales. 

 

The critical part you're missing, is that those sales are mostly to retailers and carriers.

 

  • The moment an iPhone is shipped to a retailer, it is counted as sold.
  • The moment a Galaxy arrives at a retailer, it is counted as sold.

 

Both companies account for returns separately, btw.

 

Quote:
 In fact [Apple] has occasionally pointed out that other vendors do report shipments, and sometimes inflate them by channel-stuffing.

 

Yep, they say stuff like that, but they never say who they're talking about.  That way, they're not to blame if people mistakenly presume they meant their big rivals.


Edited by KDarling - 7/24/13 at 11:05am
post #58 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Whether its shipped or sold, who besides Apple reports figures on a quarterly basis? It seems other companies like Samsung only do it when they feel like it and for certain products.

Fair question. It's true that Samsung doesn't. Who does? Blackberry. Nokia. LG. Motorola doesn't. Not sure about others. 

 

I may be wrong about some of these, but I'm sure someone will check just so they can jump on the chance I might be.

post #59 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Yep, they say stuff like that, but they never say who they're talking about.  That way, they're not to blame if naive people presume they meant their big rivals.

Kind of like when they used to question the definition of "activation".

 

I think we can now draw up a chronology of issues du jour in the mobile industry, particular in the iOS v. Android context (and contest):

 

2008-2010: activation

2011-2013: sold v. shipped

2013-?: mobile usage (aka What are Android devices used for?)

post #60 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

2008-2010: activation
2011-2013: sold v. shipped
2013-?: mobile usage

At least we finally have something that doesn't rely on Google not lying, huh?

Remember how we didn't know what "activation" meant to Google? And how they still won't tell us?
Remember how we didn't know what "sold" meant to Samsung? And how they still won't tell us?

Now we have third parties that can read usage. Should end once and for all.
post #61 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

 

You're very welcome.  This article might also be helpful:

 

http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/28/shipped-and-sold-a-brief-introduction/

 

 

Correct, Apple reports sales. 

 

The critical part you're missing, is that those sales are mostly to retailers and carriers.

 

  • The moment an iPhone is shipped to a retailer, it is counted as sold.
  • The moment a Galaxy arrives at a retailer, it is counted as sold.

 

Both companies account for returns separately, btw.

 

 

Yep, they say stuff like that, but they never say who they're talking about.  That way, they're not to blame if people mistakenly presume they meant their big rivals.

 

You keep ignoring that Apple ALSO reports channel inventory.

 

It's more transparent than any of the other big rivals I've seen. 

post #62 of 84
But when an Apple product is shipped to a retailer, and they are obligated to pay for it, be it full price or in xx installments, Apple receives their asking price, no? That would make it a sale in my book.
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post #63 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


The people who made that distinction were idiots.

Apple reports sales to channel and sales to customer - i.e. online sales from the Apple store. Mostly to channel.

You are 100% correct. They report it as shipped equal a sale. If anyone needs more evidence then lets see what Apple themselves report in their own reports:

Form 10-K Annual Report Filed Oct 31, 2012 by Apple Inc.

Link: http://investor.apple.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-12-444068

From page 26

 

Revenue Recognition

Net sales consist primarily of revenue from the sale of hardware, software, digital content and applications, peripherals, and service and support contracts. The Company recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of the Company’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, the Company defers revenue until the customer receives the product because the Company retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit. The Company recognizes revenue from the sale of hardware products,

Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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Tallest Skil:


"Eventually Google will have their Afghanistan with Oracle and collapse"

"The future is Apple, Google, and a third company that hasn't yet been created."


 


 

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post #64 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

At least we finally have something that doesn't rely on Google not lying, huh?

Remember how we didn't know what "activation" meant to Google? And how they still won't tell us?
.

Of course they've "told you". I've told you. Others have told you too as I recall.
"For those wondering, we count each device only once (i.e., we don't count re-sold devices), and "activations" means you go into a store, buy a device [and] put it on the network by subscribing to a wireless service."

That was two years ago. Like the ATT commercials say, it's not complicated.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/12/20/googles-andy-rubin-defines-android-activation-trumpets-700-0/
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post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

iPads for everyone.

 

This is why iOS doesn't support multiple users.

 

I'm sure that's Apple's theory. But there's no way I'm spending $500+ per person for two adults and three kids. Thus the kids don't get to use the iPad due to its lack of meaningful parental controls. 

post #66 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post

 

I'm sure that's Apple's theory. But there's no way I'm spending $500+ per person for two adults and three kids. Thus the kids don't get to use the iPad due to its lack of meaningful parental controls. 

 

Better parental controls would be nice.

 

Or a "Guest Mode" / "Kids Mode" where you select which apps appear (same data, mind you).

 

Kids don't need iPads anyway. I didn't have anything nearly in that price range growing up. 

post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

You are 100% correct. They report it as shipped equal a sale. If anyone needs more evidence then lets see what Apple themselves report in their own reports:

Form 10-K Annual Report Filed Oct 31, 2012 by Apple Inc.

Link: http://investor.apple.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-12-444068

From page 26

 

Revenue Recognition

Net sales consist primarily of revenue from the sale of hardware, software, digital content and applications, peripherals, and service and support contracts. The Company recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of the Company’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, the Company defers revenue until the customer receives the product because the Company retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit. The Company recognizes revenue from the sale of hardware products,

 

 

Yes, yes, yes.

 

BUT, Apple also reports channel inventory (which is not sold to an end-user). So you have pretty much all the data. How do other companies stack up? Often, we're comparing Apple's quarterly numbers with all that data with cherry-picked specific data sets (often vague) OR simply analyst guesses. 

post #68 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post


Yes, yes, yes.

BUT, Apple also reports channel inventory (which is not sold to an end-user). So you have pretty much all the data. How do other companies stack up? Often, we're comparing Apple's quarterly numbers with all that data with cherry-picked specific data sets (often vague) OR simply analyst guesses. 

Apple "reports" channel inventory? All of it? You're sure?
post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post


Apple "reports" channel inventory? All of it? You're sure?

As far as I can see, yes.

 

They report weeks of channel inventory. "We entered the quarter with 4 weeks of inventory, and ended with 2". The 4 weeks would be the 4 times the weekly shipments at the end of the previous quarter, the 2 would be 2 times the weekly shipments at the end of the actual quarter. This isn't totally exact, as the weekly figure isn't exactly known, but it can be very closely approximated.

 

PS> AI can we change this editor. Its nonfunctional on iPhones, and slow as molasses on Safari.

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post #70 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Of course they've "told you". I've told you. Others have told you too as I recall.
"For those wondering, we count each device only once (i.e., we don't count re-sold devices), and "activations" means you go into a store, buy a device [and] put it on the network by subscribing to a wireless service."

Ah, you should've taken away the quotes, that would be funny. At least that's how I read/perceived the words in the first instance.
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post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

As far as I can see, yes.

 

They report weeks of channel inventory. "We entered the quarter with 4 weeks of inventory, and ended with 2". The 4 weeks would be the 4 times the weekly shipments at the end of the previous quarter, the 2 would be 2 times the weekly shipments at the end of the actual quarter. This isn't totally exact, as the weekly figure isn't exactly known, but it can be very closely approximated.

 

PS> AI can we change this editor. Its nonfunctional on iPhones, and slow as molasses on Safari.

Which report are you citing, if I may ask?

post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Ah, you should've taken away the quotes, that would be funny. At least that's how I read/perceived the words in the first instance.

LOL!
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post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Which report are you citing, if I may ask?

Any. All conference calls and transcripts. Sample from Peter Oppenheimer from Q3 quarter last year, which is the first quarter to come up in google

 

http://seekingalpha.com/article/321818-apples-ceo-discusses-q1-2012-results-earnings-call-transcript?page=2

 

 

 We sold 15.4 million iPods compared to 19.4 million in the year-ago quarter. Total iPod sales were ahead of our expectations and iPod touch continued to account for over half of all iPods sold. iPod share of the U.S. market for MP3 players remains at over 70% based on the latest monthly data published by MPD. And iPod continued to be the top-selling MP3 player in most countries we track based on the latest data published by GFK.

We ended the quarter within our target range of 4 to 6 weeks of iPod channel inventory on a look-forward basis. 

Ok so not exact. You have to do some maths by assuming 5 weeks, and "looking forward" i.e. there would be more sales in the holiday quarter were that the next one, so that needs to be taken into account. 

 

iPhones were exact

 

 

I'd now like to turn to iPhone. We were thrilled to sell a record 37 million iPhones compared to 16.2 million in the previous December quarter. This represents 128% year-over-year growth compared to 40% growth for the smartphone market overall in the December quarter, based on the latest published estimate from IDC. We experienced very strong iPhone sales growth in all of our segments, thanks primarily to the tremendous popularity of iPhone 4S.

Customers have been captivated by Siri, which let's them use their voices to send messages, place phone calls, schedule appointments and more. Siri understands what users say, knows what they mean and helps them with everyday tasks and information requests. iPhone channel inventory increased sequentially by about 200k, leaving us with a little under 6 million iPhones in the channel at the end of the quarter, and below our target range of 4 to 6 weeks on a look-forward basis.

 

 

 

 

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post #74 of 84

However, its also clear they are shipping to channel, and counting sales to channel as sales, including when channel increases -- this means that they are counting devices which may never sell as do all the others (In Apple's case they do always sell, though).

 

This causes them problems in transition quarters, or quarters where they are following on y-o-y from a release quarter.

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post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Any. All conference calls and transcripts. Sample from Peter Oppenheimer from Q3 quarter last year, which is the first quarter to come up in google

 

http://seekingalpha.com/article/321818-apples-ceo-discusses-q1-2012-results-earnings-call-transcript?page=2

 

 

 We sold 15.4 million iPods compared to 19.4 million in the year-ago quarter. Total iPod sales were ahead of our expectations and iPod touch continued to account for over half of all iPods sold. iPod share of the U.S. market for MP3 players remains at over 70% based on the latest monthly data published by MPD. And iPod continued to be the top-selling MP3 player in most countries we track based on the latest data published by GFK.

We ended the quarter within our target range of 4 to 6 weeks of iPod channel inventory on a look-forward basis. 

Ok so not exact. You have to do some maths by assuming 5 weeks, and "looking forward" i.e. there would be more sales in the holiday quarter were that the next one, so that needs to be taken into account. 

 

iPhones were exact

With all due respect, this is not a report. This is something mentioned during a discussion/conference call, without detailed definition. 

 

Why am I nitpicking? 

 

Well, people here pay more attention to Apple discussions. So they learn more (even if they don't understand what they are learning) about Apple and conclude that Apple is more transparent. Those who question transparencies of all of Apple's rivals, have you read the transcripts of their earnings calls?

 

Channel inventory is NOT reported in units in Apple's 10-Q or anyone else's, to the best of my knowledge. All companies, however, are compelled to report on estimated value of their assets, including inventory. 

 

Really important to get one's facts straight before criticizing one or the other.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

However, its also clear they are shipping to channel, and counting sales to channel as sales, including when channel increases -- this means that they are counting devices which may never sell as do all the others (In Apple's case they do always sell, though).

 

This causes them problems in transition quarters, or quarters where they are following on y-o-y from a release quarter.

 

 

And what happens what channel inventory counted as sales doesn't sell through? We learn about this in subsequent quarters in the form of write-downs. This happened with BB and MS. So what's not transparent?

post #76 of 84

ankleskater.

 

I didn't realize you were trolling, so I answered the questions in good faith. This is the legally binding document produced at every conference call. It is not the Q&A session, although they will mention channel if asked then too.

 

To be clear; Apple reads from a script which is prepared, and then is published and it has to be legally correct subject to civil and criminal offenses. This then IS most definitely an official report.

 

 This refutes your claim ( or at least the rhetorical sneer "Are you sure about that"). The 10Q, as far as I remember, is balance sheets and total inventory, and isn't broken down, but no company does. However I haven't been an investor for a year or so.

 

So yes, they publish their channel inventory in the legally binding prepared script for their conference call. As for whether other companies do this, it depends on the companies. Amazon doesn't even break out the Kindles, nor yet their AWS, although that will change. However that was not the question at hand. 

 

 

Quote:
And what happens what channel inventory counted as sales doesn't sell through? We learn about this in subsequent quarters in the form of write-downs. This happened with BB and MS. So what's not transparent?

 

Whats not transparent is that we can only estimate channel when channel doesn't sell through.

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post #77 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

ankleskater.

 

I didn't realize you were trolling, so I answered the questions in good faith. This is the legally binding document produced at every conference call. It is not the Q&A session, although they will mention channel if asked then too.

 

To be clear; Apple reads from a script which is prepared, and then is published and it has to be legally correct subject to civil and criminal offenses. This then IS most definitely an official report.

 

 This refutes your claim ( or at least the rhetorical sneer "Are you sure about that"). The 10Q, as far as I remember, is balance sheets and total inventory, and isn't broken down, but no company does. However I haven't been an investor for a year or so.

 

So yes, they publish their channel inventory in the legally binding prepared script for their conference call. As for whether other companies do this, it depends on the companies. Amazon doesn't even break out the Kindles, nor yet their AWS, although that will change. However that was not the question at hand. 

 

 

 

Whats not transparent is that we can only estimate channel when channel doesn't sell through.

 

A conversation is not an official report. The 10-Q filing is. But you missed my point, which is not whether Apple is being honest. I have no doubt of that. The point is why don't we "hear" more data from others. My rationale is that most of us don't pay attention to the teleconferences that take place after release of earnings from other companies. Not knowing as much about other companies ≠ other companies not being "transparent". Just because you visit cousin Alice more often and hear more stories from her side of the family does not mean cousin Jacob is not a nice person.

 

Finally, Apple does NOT "report" all the iPhones in shipment. 

 

We do know when channel doesn't sell through. Furthermore, there is data out there on estimate of other companies' channel inventory. Again, people don't want to find out more about other companies because it makes it easier to diss them. Apple is a really good company that stands on its own merits. It doesn't need us to castigate others to make it shine in comparison.

post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

A conversation is not an official report. The 10-Q filing is. But you missed my point, which is not whether Apple is being honest. I have no doubt of that. The point is why don't we "hear" more data from others. My rationale is that most of us don't pay attention to the teleconferences that take place after release of earnings from other companies. Not knowing as much about other companies ≠ other companies not being "transparent". Just because you visit cousin Alice more often and hear more stories from her side of the family does not mean cousin Jacob is not a nice person.

 

Finally, Apple does NOT "report" all the iPhones in shipment. 

 

We do know when channel doesn't sell through. Furthermore, there is data out there on estimate of other companies' channel inventory. Again, people don't want to find out more about other companies because it makes it easier to diss them. Apple is a really good company that stands on its own merits. It doesn't need us to castigate others to make it shine in comparison.

 

It is officially, as in legally binding. If Apple was lying or being inaccurate, they would face stiff penalties. From their Senate hearing a few weeks ago, they hinted that there are SEC guys at their headquarters pretty much 24/7. 

 

This isn't offhand comments in an interview, or some "unnamed executive" like we hear about from Samsung and the like.

 

You can't seriously think that Apple is not more transparent than, say, Samsung. 

 

Almost all debates about who is shipping/selling more comes down to actual Apple numbers compared to a composite of analyst guesswork and cherry-picked data sets Samsung did decide to release (or "leak" anonymously). All Samsung really reports, other than the aforementioned cherry-picked data (we shipped 20M S4s in its first quarter! ...ok, which kind of S4? How many to channel?) is revenue for their mobile division, which includes "smartphones" (that really aren't) and various other segments.

 

On a side note, "shipped vs. sold" is a tired argument, and is only valid in one of these instances:

 

1) It's a new release and Company XYZ reports $XM "sales" in the first month. Clearly, there's the potential that they grossly overestimated demand, and these will be returned and written down

 

2) We see huge discounts on a product that apparently had "sold" a whole lot. If it was selling to end users so fast, why the discounts so soon?

 

3) The company writes down a bunch of inventory next quarter, or "sales" fall off a cliff.

 

 

All of these things happen regularly enough that the argument IS valid. However, when a company continues "selling" millions of devices each quarter and you use this argument, you're basically saying they're cooking their books (not that that never happens, mind you). 

post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

A conversation is not an official report. The 10-Q filing is. But you missed my point, which is not whether Apple is being honest. I have no doubt of that. The point is why don't we "hear" more data from others. My rationale is that most of us don't pay attention to the teleconferences that take place after release of earnings from other companies. Not knowing as much about other companies ≠ other companies not being "transparent". Just because you visit cousin Alice more often and hear more stories from her side of the family does not mean cousin Jacob is not a nice person.

Let me try to be remedially clear.

1) The Apple conference call is not a conversation, to begin with. It is a reading of a prepared statement.
2) That prepared statement is a report. It always contains channel inventory. It is legally binding. They don't issue one report and one 10Q with different figures.

Lastly it is up to you to prove that other companies are more transparent or not. I was responding to your "are you sure about that?" when a different poster.said that Apple reported Channel inventory. Assuming that was a genuine question, clearly incorrectly -- since it was a sneer - I corrected you on facts. It is now up to you to prove Samsung et al. provide channel info per device category. get googling.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

They don't issue one report and one 10Q with different figures.
 

That's because only one of them is an official filing. Earnings calls are primarily a chance to discuss the earnings reports released prior to the teleconference (but sometimes the teleconference is a means to address investors even when there have been earnings reported). A company does not have to regurgitate everything in the earnings reports. It can discuss more than what's contained in the earnings reports. Companies almost always start with a statement explaining that actual results may differ from projections mentioned in earnings calls. So to call it "legally binding" ... I don't even know how to respond to that. Can't say it's wrong because a company should never mislead investors. But the earnings call itself is NOT the earnings report. Sigh ...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

I corrected you on facts. 

Not at all. Now I am sneering.


Edited by ankleskater - 7/25/13 at 6:53pm
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