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First malware in the wild found exploiting Bluebox's Android app signing flaw - Page 2

post #41 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

The only difference here is that Microsoft's malware problem trumped its vast advantage in third party developer support over Macs.
Android is a hobbyist platform that doesn't have an advantage of any sort. iOS has the advantage, but Android has the malware.

That's probably the largest hobby group in the history of hobbies. Parking must be a bitch at their monthly get together and it would totally suck if it was your turn to bring the doughnuts, yeah I need 50 million Glazed, 20 million Old Fashioned, 60 million jelly filled, 30 million with sprinkles and 10 million Bear Claws, I'm late so can you make it quick.
Edited by Relic - 7/25/13 at 3:14pm
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #42 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

DED seems quite desperate to engineer this into a big issue and stir up a panic.
 

Exactly this.

post #43 of 101
Malware and viruses have been on windows and now android, Apple is and has been in both these markets and has always seemed to miss the problems, could it be that apple makes its own hardware?
post #44 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJones View Post

So then tell all the fandroids to stop crowing over being able to side-load third party apps. You can't have it both ways. Either Google Play is the only valid place to get apps or it's not.

 

Actually you can.  Google Play is not the only valid place to get apps.  So is the Amazon App Store which gives one free paid app per day.  So are reputed vendors of products like SwiftKey and Swype.  So is FDroid from which you can get open source apps like AdBlocker.  So are a number of extremely useful apps on XDA.  An app I recently installed was WifiKill (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1282900) which Google removed from the Play Store for obvious reasons.  But could be very useful for you on your own network.   I had to sideload the app.  Even though I often sideload apps, the setting is always off.  I turn it on to load the app and then turn it off again.

post #45 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

get a clue - that's how most China consumers do it, and many other developing world countries too. they prefer local services for many reasons including cultural relevancy and peer familiarity as well as getting pirateware free. they have as little to do with Google and Google Play as possible. and that's where hundreds of millions of cheap Android phones are being sold, so the potential for malware infestation is huge.

 

we live in a first world bubble here. malware doesn't.

Are those forks of android considered android anymore? As far as Google is concerned, when a third party uses the AOSP codebase to build an OS that doesn't use Google Play, the OS becomes entirely that party's product, and the third-party assumes all responsibility for supporting that OS. Google uses the term Android to refer to devices that can access Google services. You don't see Google referring to the Kindle Fire as an Android device, for example.

 

The relation between Google and those non-Google play forks is somewhat like the relation between Apple and any other OS based on Darwin. Like Google, Apple releases the fundamentals of OS X as Darwin for anyone to freely use, but it does not sanction or support any Darwin-based OS besides OS X and iOS. Those other projects are on their own. 

post #46 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJones View Post

So an even smaller group of devices?

 

And my galaxy S3 and any phone that installs Jay Freeman's app (Substrate) or Xposed or ReKey available on the Play Store.

post #47 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

Unfortunately, the same goes for the iPhone, too. In China, many iPhone users rarely use the App Store and instead use third-party websites that have leaked distribution keys to install apps via Safari. What stops these third-party websites from distributing malware to Chinese iPhone users?

you mean KuaiYong and other serivces:

 

http://www.techinasia.com/list-5-ios-iphone-ipad-jailbreaking-piracy-tools-china-2013/

 

but the difference is these are either flat out illegal, like KuaiYong, or require jailbreaking, which means knowing risk-taking by those iPhone users. whereas the Android malware vector can use technically legitimate app stores too (even tho many offer pirated apps) and does not require rooting, thus easily entrapping the unsuspecting.

 

to see the real world outcome of that vulnerability, let me direct your attention to some hard facts reported by no less than Android Authority:

 

http://www.androidauthority.com/1-4-million-real-malware-infections-204748/

 

it reports that NQ Mobile has reported that in 2012 about 11.5 million Android phone worldwide had "real" malware - 1.1 million of which are in the USA! (they screwed up their math and report a higher number of 1.4 million, but hey, it's an droid fan site so ...). 25% of the total was in China, 20% India, 18% Russia, 10% Saudia Arabia and USA ...

 

and this total was triple 2011's. how do you think it's going this year?

post #48 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

Are those forks of android considered android anymore? As far as Google is concerned, when a third party uses the AOSP codebase to build an OS that doesn't use Google Play, the OS becomes entirely that party's product, and the third-party assumes all responsibility for supporting that OS. Google uses the term Android to refer to devices that can access Google services. You don't see Google referring to the Kindle Fire as an Android device, for example.

 

The relation between Google and those non-Google play forks is somewhat like the relation between Apple and any other OS based on Darwin. Like Google, Apple releases the fundamentals of OS X as Darwin for anyone to freely use, but it does not sanction or support any Darwin-based OS besides OS X and iOS. Those other projects are on their own. 

hey, It's Open!

post #49 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

you mean KuaiYong and other serivces:

 

[redacted]

 

but the difference is these are either flat out illegal, like KuaiYong, or require jailbreaking, which means knowing risk-taking by those iPhone users. whereas the Android malware vector can use technically legitimate app stores too (even tho many offer pirated apps) and does not require rooting, thus easily entrapping the unsuspecting.

 

to see the real world outcome of that vulnerability, let me direct your attention to some hard facts reported by no less than Android Authority:

 

http://www.androidauthority.com/1-4-million-real-malware-infections-204748/

 

it reports that NQ Mobile has reported that in 2012 about 11.5 million Android phone worldwide had "real" malware - 1.1 million of which are in the USA! (they screwed up their math and report a higher number of 1.4 million, but hey, it's an droid fan site so ...). 25% of the total was in China, 20% India, 18% Russia, 10% Saudia Arabia and USA ...

 

and this total was triple 2011's. how do you think it's going this year?

Yes -- the Chinese websites are indeed illegal but do not require any form of jailbreaking. Did we really need to link to the article that seems to directly provide links to pirate sites though?

post #50 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

In other words these applications are being distributed on third-party app stores in China. This is akin to crying wolf about malware being distributed via Cydia. So stick to Google Play and you will be fine then.
Don't know much about it but if I ever go Android I will opt for a Google made phone with the latest pure O/S & stick to Google Play
post #51 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

hey, It's Open!

Sure it's Open in the sense that anyone can use the AOSP code. But the code does not come with any support. The primary benefit of open source is to reduce duplication of labor. A company which uses the AOSP codebase does not need to write its own kernel. But it's that company's responsibility to incorporate the latest upstream patches into its project.

post #52 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post
 iOS has the advantage, but Android has the malware. 

 

I wonder how that's going to work out.

Would you like to briefly describe the current extent and negative repercussions of malware on Android? 

post #53 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Me View Post

 

Apple has strict review. Nothing like this will ever happen.

 

Oh. Wait

 

http://www.macworld.com/article/2037099/ios-app-contains-potential-malware.html

The amount of malware on Android to iOS is like 1000 to 1.   Yeah, one might slip through the cracks, but if this is an actual malware app, it'll be taken down.  Have you read the quarterly reports coming out of f-secure, Symantec, McAfee, and others?  Last month Android based malware jumped dramatically on the different types of malware.  The reports I've seen discuss the type of malware not the number of people effected because that's hard to tell but they are tracking the number and types of malware.

 

Apple does have a strict policy, but obviously, they might miss one if its a new type they haven't seen.

post #54 of 101

99% of Supermarkets *COULD* substitute horse meat labeled as beef!!!!!

 

A few stores in Germany, the UK, and Sweden were found where horse meat had been substituted for beef.

 

Since this *COULD* happen at 99% of supermarkets everyone should panic and stop shopping at supermarkets because it is *NOT SAFE*

 

 

Obviously security firms like Symantec, and people that make their living by harvesting emotions of their fan base more so than logic- like DED-have a vested interest in finding the one problem child and exaggerating it to seem like the norm.

 

 

Until all these hypothetical problems reach a point where they are affecting even a fair amount of users, they'll remain a non-issue to actual Android users and more of a source for wishful schadenfreude on Apple fans' part. 

 

Google does need to take them seriously because once they do actually start affecting people other than the tiny percentage ones that are both

 

1) Smart enough to disable all necessary security features on their phone and yet also

2) Dumb enough to download apps from www.freeAppz4u/funFunSafe/haxorz.cn

 

then people will leave in droves.

 

The 'bigger' known stores are not foolproof, but they have the equivalent of an 'fda inspected' stamp on what they are selling.

You still have the option to go shopping in the shady part of town with rats and where chicken and dogs mysteriously disappear and buy from the superdupercheap beef store there if you really want to.

 

Given an alternative option of being locked in a prison and only being able to pick out what they are offering- even if what they are offering is generally very very good- I'll choose freedom.

 

The other downside to the prison system is when something actually *does* get through the lockdown- it generally affects *ALL* the inmates.

post #55 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

Unfortunately, the same goes for the iPhone, too. In China, many iPhone users rarely use the App Store and instead use third-party websites that have leaked distribution keys to install apps via Safari. What stops these third-party websites from distributing malware to Chinese iPhone users?

 

Nothing. Just like the Chinese can electrocute themselves with their own faulty knockoff power adapters.

 

The point, however, is that in both cases the iOS device is not being used as its designed to be used.

 

Android is designed to sideload apps from any source; the fact that its core OS fails to flag signing problems is transient issue (but hard to fix). The larger problem is that virtually every serious difference in Android, compared to iOS, a flaw. Google created an insecure platform under the guise of being open. It ignored risks and is now left with a mess of issues. Beyond that, Google's design for permissions invites abuse of users' privacy and security. So even without the bugs, Android has a core design flaws. It's not designed to be good, it's designed to propagate ads ad collect market data.

post #56 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

99% of Supermarkets *COULD* substitute horse meat labeled as beef!!!!!

 

No need to launch into irrelevant hysterical nonsense. Android is flawed, and Google has no way to fix the problem globally.

 

So when Android fans brag about how many 10 millions of phones were sold in China and India, they have to stop and admit those huge volumes are contaminated and are unlikely to ever be fixed. People are actively being exploited because Google deployed a flawed OS without regard for users' security.

 

If you want to only talk about Android in the U.S. and only the Google Play store, then we can do that too. In that case:

- Android is a minority platform

- It has a crap selection of apps

- Even the "reputable" by vendors such as Facebook and Samsung are exploiting its defective design to distribute spyware and privacy violating apps.

 

It's that simple. So decide for yourself if you want to argue that Android is supreme for having so many flawed units deployed globablly, or if you want to want to admit that Android is a minority tinkering platform for hobbyists with a lot of time on their hands to doodle with widgets and ROMs.

post #57 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Would you like to briefly describe the current extent and negative repercussions of malware on Android? 

 

Do a Google search on the subject.

 

Most of the people affected are regular people without a lot of money to deal with cleaning up and securing their phone on a daily basis just because Gogole did a crap job of rolling out a me-too platform in a bid to deploy a marketing-driven spyware platform under the rather arrogantly righteous banner of being "open."

 

It's exactly like Windows PCs a decade ago, when pretentious nerds prattled on about how there wasn't any problem with malware because they knew how to run scanner software several times a week and didn't mind losing 10% of their CPU performance to virus management. Meanwhile regular people had to deal with an unnecessary problem because their platform vendor was incompetent.

post #58 of 101

Don't hold back DED, tell us how you really feel. 


Edited by rjc999 - 7/25/13 at 8:39pm
post #59 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

Beyond that, Google's design for permissions invites abuse of users' privacy and security. So even without the bugs, Android has a core design flaws. It's not designed to be good, it's designed to propagate ads ad collect market data.

 

Interestingly, here is how Google explains its decision to request permissions at install time vs run time (http://source.android.com/devices/tech/security/index.html):

 

Quote:

There are many reasons to show permissions immediately prior to installation time. This is when user is actively reviewing information about the application, developer, and functionality to determine whether it matches their needs and expectations. It is also important that they have not yet established a mental or financial commitment to the app, and can easily compare the application to other alternative applications.

Some other platforms use a different approach to user notification, requesting permission at the start of each session or while applications are in use. The vision of Android is to have users switching seamlessly between applications at will. Providing confirmations each time would slow down the user and prevent Android from delivering a great user experience. Having the user review permissions at install time gives the user the option to not install the application if they feel uncomfortable.

 

Google seems to assume that users treat software purchases as business decisions.


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 7/25/13 at 8:28pm
post #60 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

 

Interestingly, here is how Google explains its decision to request permissions at install time vs run time (http://source.android.com/devices/tech/security/index.html):

 

 

Google seems to assume that users treat software purchases like business decisions.

 

Both methods are flawed. Vista got criticized for the opposite issue, putting up authorization dialog everytime escalated privileges were needed. Security research has shown that both fall to "security fatigue", wherein eventually the user tunes out the content of these permission requests and just hits "Ok" There's no silver bullet. You can 100% sandbox apps and firewall them from other apps and the OS, but then users get irritated by duplication, because they entered something in another app (a contact) and can't pull it up in a different app and must reenter it. The more bells and whistles you add, the more "fine grained" the security mechanism, the more bewildering it becomes to end users as well, even though the most secure system has the finest grained permissions.

post #61 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjc999 View Post

Don't hold back DED, tell us how you really feel. 

"Let the hate flow through you"

post #62 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

Sure it's Open in the sense that anyone can use the AOSP code. But the code does not come with any support. The primary benefit of open source is to reduce duplication of labor. A company which uses the AOSP codebase does not need to write its own kernel. But it's that company's responsibility to incorporate the latest upstream patches into its project.

i was being lighthearted of course with "It's Open." but not this time: Google can't wash it's hands of the monster it created - got it?

post #63 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

Nothing. Just like the Chinese can electrocute themselves with their own faulty knockoff power adapters.

 

The point, however, is that in both cases the iOS device is not being used as its designed to be used.

 

Android is designed to sideload apps from any source; the fact that its core OS fails to flag signing problems is transient issue (but hard to fix). The larger problem is that virtually every serious difference in Android, compared to iOS, a flaw. Google created an insecure platform under the guise of being open. It ignored risks and is now left with a mess of issues. Beyond that, Google's design for permissions invites abuse of users' privacy and security. So even without the bugs, Android has a core design flaws. It's not designed to be good, it's designed to propagate ads ad collect market data.

precisely.

post #64 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

 

Interestingly, here is how Google explains its decision to request permissions at install time vs run time (http://source.android.com/devices/tech/security/index.html):

 

 

Google seems to assume that users treat software purchases as business decisions.

 

Hows that working out? Lots of professional respect for the clusterfuck of Android? What can one say about the platform, apart from "it helps cheap devices ship that might otherwise be to terrible to support commercial software"?

 

How's the user satisfaction ratings by regular Android users? And not just the ideologically devoted. Seems most people use Android for MyFirstSmartphone training wheels and then get a real iPhone afterward. There's little movement toward Android from the other direction, if you look at research rather than just surveying your self-selected friends.

post #65 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKings33 View Post

"Let the hate flow through you"

 

I don't hate anything in technology, apart from incompetence itself and those who troll in support of it. 

 

Google is wasting a lot of money but I certainly don't hate the company. I use several Google products and they bought me a nice car. 

post #66 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

i was being lighthearted of course with "It's Open." but not this time: Google can't wash it's hands of the monster it created - got it?

I doubt Google is that interested in washing its hands. To Google, those Chinese forks might as well not exist.

post #67 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjc999 View Post

 

Both methods are flawed. Vista got criticized for the opposite issue, putting up authorization dialog everytime escalated privileges were needed. Security research has shown that both fall to "security fatigue", wherein eventually the user tunes out the content of these permission requests and just hits "Ok" There's no silver bullet. You can 100% sandbox apps and firewall them from other apps and the OS, but then users get irritated by duplication, because they entered something in another app (a contact) and can't pull it up in a different app and must reenter it. The more bells and whistles you add, the more "fine grained" the security mechanism, the more bewildering it becomes to end users as well, even though the most secure system has the finest grained permissions.

 

Yes Vista's throwing up nonsense messages ad nauseam is not better than Google's EULA style "take it or leave it bullshit agreement before you install an app" nonsense.

 

But let's talk non-nonsense. Is there anything better than the iOS app store restricting app developers from doing terrible things, and making them ask for permission before recording, accessing location, contacts, etc? Seems like the right balance to me. 

post #68 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjc999 View Post

Don't hold back DED, tell us how you really feel. 

 

Thanks for removing the overboard and deranged part of your rant. 

 

Also, please just keep your comments on topic and relevant. You can argue any point you like, just let up on the hysterics and bad behavior. Engage in an adult conversation. 

post #69 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

 

But let's talk non-nonsense. Is there anything better than the iOS app store restricting app developers from doing terrible things, and making them ask for permission before recording, accessing location, contacts, etc? Seems like the right balance to me. 

How about also informing the users before they hit "buy"? Does the app store let users get a refund if they discover only after running an app that it wants access to their personal info and won't function optimally otherwise?


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 7/25/13 at 9:19pm
post #70 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

I doubt Google is that interested in washing its hands. To Google, those Chinese forks might as well not exist.

yup. and also all of the real Chinese people it can't data-mine.

post #71 of 101

post #72 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

Hows that working out? Lots of professional respect for the clusterfuck of Android? What can one say about the platform, apart from "it helps cheap devices ship that might otherwise be to terrible to support commercial software"?

How's the user satisfaction ratings by regular Android users? And not just the ideologically devoted. Seems most people use Android for MyFirstSmartphone training wheels and then get a real iPhone afterward. There's little movement toward Android from the other direction, if you look at research rather than just surveying your self-selected friends.

Seems Google is heading this way http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/07/25/app-ops-android-4-3s-hidden-app-permission-manager-control-permissions-for-individual-apps/

The 4.3 update apparently lets you switch off the permissions you don't want the app to access.

Thanks DeD. Your rambling is changing Android for the better 1smile.gif
post #73 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

How about also informing the users before they hit "buy"? Does the app store let users get a refund if they discover only upon running an app that it wants access to their personal info and won't function optimally otherwise?

 

 

Apps that demand access to your contacts and refuse to work otherwise don't get approved. That's what the whole curation thing is about. 

 

Have you ever used the App Store? It's not just a bunch of garbage adware like Google Play. You should check it out and see why there's such a vast difference in how iOS users buy apps compared to the situation that awaits Android buyers. It's hard to even compare.

 

When I look at Google Play I don't even understand how the company has fans, let alone the zombie horde of missionaries that set up camp and attack every article I write about how appallingly bad the Android experience really is. What drives your devotion to sloppy software and poor planning, mr sklgjskkdls?

post #74 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

You can keep telling yourself that malware and spyware has no impact on the platform, but that didn't work out well for Windows XP did it? 

 

The only difference here is that Microsoft's malware problem trumped its vast advantage in third party developer support over Macs.

Android is a hobbyist platform that doesn't have an advantage of any sort. iOS has the advantage, but Android has the malware. 

 

I wonder how that's going to work out.

 

The only difference is one Malware problem is real and the other perceived. I'll let you guess which one is which.

 

And that darn hobbyist platform is doing awfully well for itself. 

post #75 of 101
Wow this sounds like a nasty virus https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4895878?start=0&tstart=0

The guy can't even use Safari. With Android at least you can choose which browser to use automatically so he could at least circumvent the adware. Sucks for him... I guess if malware was to become widespread on iOS it could do SERIOUS damage versus on Android that is designed in a way that has safeguards in place.
post #76 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

 

Apps that demand access to your contacts and refuse to work otherwise don't get approved. That's what the whole curation thing is about. 

[...]

 

When I look at Google Play I don't even understand how the company has fans, let alone the zombie horde of missionaries that set up camp and attack every article I write about how appallingly bad the Android experience really is. What drives your devotion to sloppy software and poor planning, mr sklgjskkdls?

You misread my post as a defense for Google. Some people probably try apps as they might sample food at a buffet, and declaring permissions at install time obviously won't make much of an impression on those people. But others might prefer to know exactly what they are getting before they buy something, not just that someone else deems the app "acceptable". That's why I included the word "also." Informing the user at install time need not involve putting up a dialog box. For example, Apple could simply require apps to declare their intention to access contacts in their app store descriptions. 


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 7/26/13 at 7:39am
post #77 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

I don't hate anything in technology, apart from incompetence itself and those who troll in support of it. 

You might claim not to hate anything in technology, but you certainly spend enough time focusing on topics that encourage hate.

 

You'll cover a malware 'outbreak' on Android, but you won't spend time on something such as Ubuntu Edge (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge). A device that strives for innovation, a benefit to all mobile consumers.

 

When asked by an iOS user about the Ubuntu Edge, Mark Shuttleworth had this to say: "the Edge is a very interesting new way to signal to Apple what you consider cool in hardware (and software)." (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1j166z/hi_im_mark_shuttleworth_founder_of_ubuntu/)

 

--

 

What about software innovation such as OpenGL ES 3.0? Android, not iOS, is the one making the push. There are over 30 Android devices currently on the market that offer hardware support for OpenGL ES 3.0, meanwhile Apple doesn't have a single iOS device on the market capable of utilizing OpenGL ES 3.0. The first game to use OpenGL ES 3.0 features will be launching early August, Asphalt 8. Unity 4.2, the newest edition to a very popular game engine, will be offering GLES3 support for Android.

post #78 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrodriguez View Post

Wow this sounds like a nasty virus https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4895878?start=0&tstart=0

The guy can't even use Safari. With Android at least you can choose which browser to use automatically so he could at least circumvent the adware. Sucks for him... I guess if malware was to become widespread on iOS it could do SERIOUS damage versus on Android that is designed in a way that has safeguards in place.

 

Not sure I'd call that a virus, but that would be frustrating as heck to have to deal with that.  It sounds like that guy needs an ad blocker.  Apparently it's really easy to do on an iDevice.  Earlier in this thread GTR posted that all you have to do is "Press the button at the top of the browser that says 'Reader'." to block ads.  I wonder why no one suggested that instead of dismissing their problems or suggesting they do things they've already tried.


Edited by DroidFTW - 7/25/13 at 10:45pm
post #79 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by koop View Post

 

The only difference is one Malware problem is real and the other perceived. I'll let you guess which one is which.

 

And that darn hobbyist platform is doing awfully well for itself. 

gee, you must have missed my post not too far above on this page 2 ...

 

 

"... to see the real world outcome of that vulnerability, let me direct your attention to some hard facts reported by no less than Android Authority:

 

http://www.androidauthority.com/1-4-million-real-malware-infections-204748/

 

it reports that NQ Mobile has reported that in 2012 about 11.5 million Android phone worldwide had "real" malware - 1.1 million of which are in the USA! (they screwed up their math and report a higher number of 1.4 million, but hey, it's an droid fan site so ...). 25% of the total was in China, 20% India, 18% Russia, 10% Saudia Arabia and USA ...

 

and this total was triple 2011's. how do you think it's going this year?"

 

... sounds kinda real to me. that's ok, i don't read all the comments before posting either.

post #80 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Eleven View Post

problem is, the damn f*cker just won't stay dead.

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