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iPhone home button fingerprint scanner described in latest iOS 7 beta - Page 2

post #41 of 102
Definitely want the hardware button. It definitely has a psychological effect on the user. It conveys a sense of security.
post #42 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

boy, we are so close of breaking $450 today.  There is major resistance there.

Yeap, good short right there at resistance!

post #43 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by dugbug View Post

I would imagine this complements your actual password rather than replaces it as you still need to enter a password on your mac. It does have one attribute a password does not: it cannot be shared.

 

until someone cuts your finger off;-)

 

This gets to the lowest level of '2 Factor' Authentication that is critical for just about any serious internet transaction authentication.  (note... we still need better transport[in motion] encryption, and storage [at rest] encryption).  Most people are installing a encrypted cert/cookie into apps upon first authentication to make the phone/pad a 'token,' but it's a weak sauce. 

 

Any 2 of the 3 below are 

 

The combination of:

- Something you uniquely have and cannot be copied  (a 'hard token' a 1 time password generator fob [hard token], a plug in USB key with a soft token, or a private Key Cert)

- Something you uniquely know (can be copied, but is something that is secret to only you.)

- Something you are (fingerprint, retina scan, dna)

 

The fact that the authentec technology is more real-time than a fingerprint or swipe (looks for the blood vessels to live cells), gets you past the Mission Impossible/Bourne Supremacy lift a print, record a voiceprint to open the biometric safe (the hard token is something that when missing is missed).

 

Once hashed at the device side, these then become unreversable (one can't make your fingerprint out of it), and they best have a timestamp included to stop replay attacks.

 

So if you...

 

1) use a strong password on your iDevice (something you know), with a 10 try lockout/alarm/erase.

     this is a big deal... a 5-6 character using letters, symbols and numbers, with a 10 try lockout

2) then enable fingerprint biometric authentication (something you are)

     to unlock any apps that do money transactions, which likely unlocks a local private key to identify

     you as you to your ecommerce facilitator (I trust the app, I trust the private key assigned to you by

     me in that app if your fingerprint was used to create it, and then release it to me.

 

You're probably certain it's your recently living finger and your memory executing the transaction

 

 

All bets are off for the 'beat you with a wrench' scenario.  (XKCD.com)

 

 

post #44 of 102

I can already foresee the spike in the crime of dedigitation.

post #45 of 102
I decided to look up Ming's predictions this and was remarkably surprised to read his time estimations were much more accurate than any other analyst (especially Brian White). Ming started on Jan. 16th with a June/July release of iPhones. Jan 20th Q3. Jan 25th Q3. Mar 4th July. Mar 5th June announcement, Jul rollout. Mar 21st Q3. Apr 11th launch later than market consensus. Jul 22nd late Sept. Jul 23rd iPhone Lite early Sept, 5S later.

On Apr 2nd, the extraordinarily reputable WSJ provided its analysis... It was a fun read that reminded why I stopped buying the WSJ. I would rather read predictions from DigiTimes! :-)))
post #46 of 102
hats off to Ming-Chi Kuo.

Hats off to you, sir.
I wanted dsadsa bit it was taken.
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I wanted dsadsa bit it was taken.
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post #47 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

What happens if you were to cut your finger temporarily or worse permanently damaging your finger print?

A tweetybird pops up and says "I hurt my wittle thumb" and you pwess "ok."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

I can already foresee the spike in the crime of dedigitation.

I'll say it before he does this time: shut up.
post #48 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

I can already foresee the spike in the crime of dedigitation.

Horror stories of the Mexican mafias come to mind on that one...

post #49 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

Horror stories of the Mexican mafias come to mind on that one...

That's decapitation thus rendering Android's face unlock useless. 1smoking.gif
"I got the answer by talking in my brain and I agreed of the answer my brain got" a 7 yr old explaining his math HW
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"I got the answer by talking in my brain and I agreed of the answer my brain got" a 7 yr old explaining his math HW
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #50 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

Then you'd need to fall back to typing in a password. And if your fingers were chopped off completely, then you'd need to revert to using another fallback to enter your credentials, like asking for help. 

You should still be able to dial 911 (or similar emergency service number in other countries) without fully unlocking the iPhone. That works even if the iPhone has not been activated yet.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #51 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

That's decapitation thus rendering Android's face unlock useless. 1smoking.gif

I believe that an Apple user's thumb is far more valuable than a Fandroid's head, in terms of financial gain. Based on various statistics and data that we have all seen these past years, what is there to be gained by chopping off a Fandroid's head? Is there anything of value really stored on the phone?

If I were a criminal, I'd much rather have an Apple thumb instead of a Fandroid head.
post #52 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


That's decapitation thus rendering Android's face unlock useless. 1smoking.gif

They also sever fingers for ransom purposes. Some Americans got screwed by that one.

post #53 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy911 View Post

How do you know that?  It will take however long it needs to based on the scanner hardware, software algorithms, dirt/dust, finger position, and quality of the fingerprint capture. 

 

Some reasonable assumptions:  once the setup has been done, the software need only match the current scan with what it holds in memory.  Given that Apple is going to use this in the home button of the iPhone, I think we can rest assure that it has some appropriate fault tolerance to account for slightly off-center thumbs, grease and dirt on the button, etc.  It would be sort of surprising if Apple shipped an iPhone with a fussy, have to try several times and get it just right unlock function.

 

So then we can consider that this wouldn't be a flatbed scanner that has to pass a mechanical slit over the thing to be scanned, but rather a sensor that takes its impression all at once.

 

Given all that, how long to trigger, take its image and match?  I'm going to say less than a second.  I don't know, of course, but matching the read to the one stored in memory would be near instantaneous, and I can't see how the imaging process would be anything but near instantaneous.  So a second may be generous.

post #54 of 102

Also, as far as damage to or loss of your thumb:  seems pretty likely that you would input your passcode to get access to settings, then re-initiate the scan setup procedure with the modified or different digit.

post #55 of 102
I'm convinced they're adding the fingerprint reader, but I'm not convinced it will be under the home button.

Remembering the recent patent filing for tech that allows the fingerprint reader to be integrated within the display itself, I started considering that they may be eliminating the physical home button altogether.

So yes, it may be "under the home button", but the button itself might be a touchscreen button instead of a physical one.

Looking at the design of iOS 7, in particular the way the lock screen feels, adds to my thinking it's a real possibility.

Total speculation on my part, of course...

Even if they keep the physical home button (one of the single most common points of failure on iPhone handsets by the way), I still think it could end up "under the screen" rather than under the button itself.

Can't wait to see what's in store!


[EDIT] OK. I read that plist file a few times more carefully. ASSUMING it will remain a physical button, then yeah… it sure looks like the sensor is going under there.

In any case, I need Apple to promise me there is no way EVER for this device to "photograph" my thumbprint, upload that image, and connect it to my device, usage, and other personal details via metadata. PROMISE ME!
Edited by tribalogical - 7/29/13 at 3:20pm
post #56 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

 

Then you'd need to fall back to typing in a password. And if your fingers were chopped off completely, then you'd need to revert to using another fallback to enter your credentials, like asking for help. 

 

"Siri… call an ambulance…"

 

?

post #57 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by NelsonX View Post

The most important question for me is: Is this still a physical button? Because I really HATE that stupid home button! It never does what I intend to do. I press once and it register randomly one, two or three presses. I HATE IT!
 

 

no love lost here either, but… it sounds like you should take yours in to have it looked at. Really, mine never does that.

post #58 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Take better care of it, then. I certainly hope it's still physical. We'll have users whining about how their phone locked up and there was "nothing they could do" otherwise.

 

You'd still have the 'on/off' button up top… 

 

I'm not sure how one would accomplish a 'hard reset' without the home button though (a hard reset being: "press and hold both the on/off and home buttons simultaneously. Hold them until the Apple logo appears (ignore the "slide to power off" message that appears in between)". Restarting this way will take quite a bit longer than a simple 'power cycle', but it's a hard reboot and helps to clear caches, stuck memory, etc…).

 

Without the physical home button, how would this be accomplished? Otherwise, I see no good reason to keep it physical...

post #59 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post


A tweetybird pops up and says "I hurt my wittle thumb" and you pwess "ok."
I'll say it before he does this time: shut up.

Phuck off. Go make up some facts like you usually do.

post #60 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


I believe that an Apple user's thumb is far more valuable than a Fandroid's head, in terms of financial gain. Based on various statistics and data that we have all seen these past years, what is there to be gained by chopping off a Fandroid's head? Is there anything of value really stored on the phone?

If I were a criminal, I'd much rather have an Apple thumb instead of a Fandroid head.

 

You have just rendered your Avatar tagline meaningless….

 

You'll have to change it to "The Diginator" now, or something…. 1wink.gif


Edited by tribalogical - 7/29/13 at 3:22pm
post #61 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

"Siri… call an ambulance…"

 

?

You do know Siri won't do that, right?

 

She is not allowed to call 911.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #62 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

They also sever fingers for ransom purposes. Some Americans got screwed by that one.

 

Because Americans are more fond of giving them the finger, or…?

post #63 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by signal1 View Post

Also, as far as damage to or loss of your thumb:  seems pretty likely that you would input your passcode to get access to settings, then re-initiate the scan setup procedure with the modified or different digit.

 

Yep, pretty much reinforcing the "$5 wrench" theory for me right there...

post #64 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

You do know Siri won't do that, right?

 

She is not allowed to call 911.

 

Who said anything about calling 911? I'm old school. "Call an ambulance" doesn't equal "call 911"… *sigh*

 

But… You do know I was kidding anyway, right?

 

Since you can't (afaik) get Siri's attention just by saying "Siri…"   1tongue.gif

post #65 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradPro View Post

So, will NSA have all our thumbprints soon?

Exactly... Look on the bright side. If you're ever arrested, they don't need to take prints and mug shots. They've already got everything loaded in the database from your phone and will have an expedited processing line for iPhone owners.

post #66 of 102
I hope the designers are smarter than I. How will we hand off the phone to the passenger in our car while we're driving so they can answer the call, or make a call on our behalf, or use Maps to help us with directions.
post #67 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

This, to me, would be one of the best improvements to the iPhone since its inception, in terms of actual usage. Would be so awesome not having to enter passwords 73,293 times a day. Definitely make usage more enjoyable and efficient.

 

1. Ease of use, as you suggested.
2. One more layer of security, making Enterprise and Government more interested in purchasing an iPhone over other brands. 
3. Differentiating the 5E "elite" premium iPhone from the 5C "consumer" plastic iPhone.
4. Differentiating Apple's products from those used by the unwashed toiling sweating masses. (Those who Amada Byrnes consider to ugly for her to notice)
post #68 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

You do know Siri won't do that, right?

 

She is not allowed to call 911.

 

Who said anything about calling 911? I'm old school. "Call an ambulance" doesn't equal "call 911"… *sigh*

 

But… You do know I was kidding anyway, right?

 

Since you can't (afaik) get Siri's attention just by saying "Siri…"   1tongue.gif

 

Siri, call me an ambulance!

 

Ok, from now on I will call you "An Ambulance".

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #69 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

I hope the designers are smarter than I. How will we hand off the phone to the passenger in our car while we're driving so they can answer the call, or make a call on our behalf, or use Maps to help us with directions.

 

You hold the Home button down so the phone knows you are you and Siri asked you "How may I help you, master?" Then you say to Siri: "Let my drunken friend use you for exactly two minutes." Hand phone to friend. 

 

I expect that as long as you've unlocked the phone with your fingerprint, your fingerprint is no longer needed... or only needed again if you use certain apps where you might spend money.

post #70 of 102

everyone keeps referring to the home button as IF it will be the physical home button that we have grown to love or hate. the code could be referring to a home button that is software generated on the display, it doesn't have to be the physical home button.

 

Also, just because the fingerprint code is in this BETA version of iOS 7, doesn't mean it will end up as functional code in iOS 7. It may be waiting for a newer iPhone and/or iPad. 

 

Better yet it could be a fake to get Samsung and others working on something that isn't coming out yet.

 

Whatever it is, it isn't what we think.

post #71 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morky View Post

Exactly... Look on the bright side. If you're ever arrested, they don't need to take prints and mug shots. They've already got everything loaded in the database from your phone and will have an expedited processing line for iPhone owners.

 

The NSA can also interrogate Siri and she'll tell on you worse then your little sister did when your parents came home: "According to my built-in GPS he was definitely going over 100 mph, mister officer."

post #72 of 102
No.. Galaxy S5.

1) Invent a brand new feature called fingerhome where there's a finger scanner under the back button.
2) Get sued by Apple. Claim it's under the back button so it's totally different from the home button.
3) Add a new feature where pressing the finger scanner will send a middle finger picture to all your Apple friends.
4) Feature it in an ad blitz.
4) Collect the money...
post #73 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunlo View Post

Then I see what Samsung will do next,

Invent a keychain with NFC chip,

Bump it with the phone to unlock it.

Make an Ad having bunch of people in front of Apple store,

 

And that's is Galaxy S5.

 
No.. Galaxy S5.
 
1) Invent a brand new feature called fingerhome where there's a finger scanner under the back button.
2) Get sued by Apple.  Claim it's under the back button so it's totally different from the home button.
3) Add a new feature where pressing the finger scanner will send a middle finger picture to all your Apple friends.
4) Feature it in an ad blitz.
5) Collect the money from the lemmings while sending out lawyers to hold off Apple.
post #74 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

In any case, I need Apple to promise me there is no way EVER for this device to "photograph" my thumbprint, upload that image, and connect it to my device, usage, and other personal details via metadata. PROMISE ME!

THAT would be an option under "settings" > Sync my Biometrics.

 

You will find that just above, "Notify me who else is trying to use my iDevices."

post #75 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

I can already foresee the spike in the crime of dedigitation.

Problem with that is it wont work on the authentic sensor.  It reads the layer of living tissue under the outer dead skin with radio waves and cant be spoofed with a dead finger.

post #76 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

In any case, I need Apple to promise me there is no way EVER for this device to "photograph" my thumbprint, upload that image, and connect it to my device, usage, and other personal details via metadata. PROMISE ME!

A scanner on the home button isn't going to be large enough to scan the whole thumb. They'll probably have to notify users to use the thumb-tip or center. If they ask to swipe over the home button, that could scan the whole print. The type of scanners they use also scan underneath the skin to avoid cuts so the same reading won't be the same on all sensors. It doesn't make sense for them to use the print directly either, it's better to modify the reading so it can be more easily protected and changed:

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Cancelable_biometrics

I expect they will have to have a privacy policy stating what biometric data is processed and stored.
post #77 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

 

Siri, call me an ambulance!

 

Ok, from now on I will call you "An Ambulance".

Just tried it. Siri actually was smart enough to call for an ambulance (but not before asking for confirmation).

 

"Call me handsome" worked just fine (but again only after confirmation).

post #78 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Problem with that is it wont work on the authentic sensor.  It reads the layer of living tissue under the outer dead skin with radio waves and cant be spoofed with a dead finger.

Surely the tissue stays "alive" long enough to change the password of the amputee's password?

post #79 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serendip View Post

 
No.. Galaxy S5.
 
1) Invent a brand new feature called fingerhome where there's a finger scanner under the back button.
2) Get sued by Apple.  Claim it's under the back button so it's totally different from the home button.
3) Add a new feature where pressing the finger scanner will send a middle finger picture to all your Apple friends.
4) Feature it in an ad blitz.
5) Collect the money from the lemmings while sending out lawyers to hold off Apple.

What's your response if Motorola accuses Apple of being a copycat of this fingerprint feature?

post #80 of 102
What a useless gimmick. Zzzzzz....
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