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Apple retail workers file class action suit claiming lost wages over bag searches - Page 4

post #121 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


You are posting in the working day I see ?

 

I have my own business. 

post #122 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


Really? No!

 

Jesus!

 

Well then what is the difference from stealing from your boss vs. your boss stealing from you (as so many have put it)

post #123 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


Poor wording on my part.

I meant "their" productivity.

 

Are you suggesting that being they still get paid and or promoted that justifies them from stealing time? 

post #124 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by denobin View Post


Idle time is the nature of retail. Sometimes it's busy, other times not. When not, there are usually plenty of things to do, but sometimes there are not. Employees are compensated based on their time, busy or not. It's disingenuous to claim that they should trade their "idle time" for a mandatory check. The manager is derelict if his employees are insufficiently busy; he should be tasking them or reduce staff levels. If the claims are true, then the claimants should prevail.

 

There is always something to do in any business so idle time is a myth. Yes, if they are so willing to stand there and do nothing, knowing something can be being done, then they should not cry when they are asked to wait 5 minutes for a bad check.

 

That's being a hypocrite! 

 

 

 

Quote:
I challenge any of you who still think the employees are being cry babies to voluntarily calculate how much time you waste during the day and give back that portion of your wages or salary. Go ahead, I'll wait...
Didn't think so. Hypocrites, every one of you.

 

Most reports estimate 6 - 6.5 hours of productivity per 8 hours worked per day from employees. Yet they complain about 5 minute bag check. And no, its not the act of giving money back, its the act of stealing 1.5 hours and demanding 5 minutes. 

 

That's being a hypocrite! 

post #125 of 273

10-15 minutes is enough time to do a full cavity search, take a verbal lie detector test, and take a blood sample.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #126 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

10-15 minutes is enough time to do a full cavity search, take a verbal lie detector test, and take a blood sample.

 

If a manager was actually taking 10-15 minutes to check a bag, I'd stop bringing in the bag. But I doubt that is true, from experience, and bet that is just sensationalism. 

post #127 of 273
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Originally Posted by See Flat View Post

I just don't understand the pettiness.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mactoid View Post

This seems like a pretty basic issue for Apple to get hung up on.

 

Enforcement is a deterrent. Do you understand deterrence?

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post #128 of 273
Doubt employees are doing this. More likely this pays better than ambulance chasing.
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post #129 of 273
Sorry Apple, I am a fanboy and even I can see that clearly is a no-no. Bag searches are ok on the clock, but not off the clock. May not have been an issue if you do not put the employee through a 15 minute wait.
post #130 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post


Are you suggesting that being they still get paid and or promoted that justifies them from stealing time? 

No.

It seems to me that you perhaps have a reading comprehension issue that goes beyond my original poorly worded (subsequently corrected) post.
post #131 of 273
I dont know, I really dont know what to say.

But my guess is that every employees in the world working in restaurant or food services chain will get some SIGNIFICANTLY pay rise if this gets pass, or even personnel working in Hotels. And many others working in other sectors.

Its both a good thing and a bad thing.

The good thing is those who really did the "work" during non working hours and actually "working" will finally get paid more.

The bad thing this is coming from those who didn't actually "work" and was asking for compensation because they are still in "working place" for bag searches.

There are only two kind of people in this world.

Those who dont understand Apple and those who misunderstood Apple.

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There are only two kind of people in this world.

Those who dont understand Apple and those who misunderstood Apple.

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post #132 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Yep. Here are the main points, all in true statements.

1) People carry bags.
2) People do not have to carry bags.
3) People can carry bags into work at Apple.
4) People do not have to carry bags into work at Apple.
5) Bags are not required for work at Apple.
6) People who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search.
7) People who do not carry bags into work at Apple are not subject to search.
8) If people do not want to be searched, they should not carry bags into work at Apple.

Any further confusion? Now for the only point of contention.

9) As bags are not required for work at Apple, the search through bags carried into work at Apple is off the clock, as the activity is not a required part of work done at Apple.
Your own posts disprove that. 1oyvey.gif

You. Are. Never. Ever. Wrong. About. Anything. And. Even. If. You. Are. You. Will. Never. Ever. Admit. It.

 

Unbelievable.

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post #133 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

You. Are. Never. Ever. Wrong. About. Anything. And. Even. If. You. Are. You. Will. Never. Ever. Admit. It.

Unbelievable.

Could you maybe shut up and show me where I'm wrong then? Thanks. Otherwise please just move on.
post #134 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Wow, a whole fucking hour per WEEK? I like how everyone, from the US gvt to Apple's own employees, are just clamoring to throw Apple under the bus because of greed and attention-whorism. Quit if you don't like the policies. There's a million other companies you can work at, and a long line of people who really wish they could get a job at Apple retail.

Are you just angry all the time? Cases come up with other companies too. You're just more likely to read them when they involve Apple or at the very least a tech company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Provided this is true, this case won't even make it past the preliminaries.

And I've seen plenty of Apple Store employees come on shift. Not one was carrying a bag.

Do you mean it will be thrown out or most likely settled out of court? I find it kind of amusing how much information people try to extrapolate from what is stated in a short article. Every time I read through one like this, then view the comments, it goes basically the same way. People have already made up their minds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I call BS.

If they were really waiting 10-15 minutes before leaving for their lunch break and 10-15 minutes when returning, they'd be suing for violation of Federal laws which require a lunch break.


You ignored the up to qualifier. It was probably during situations where a manager wasn't immediately available. This isn't a secure environment with someone dedicated to check in/check out of each individual entering or leaving the building. If it isn't a high priority for the manager, there may be situations where they wait depending on how many people are clocking in or out at that time.

post #135 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Do you mean it will be thrown out or most likely settled out of court?

Thrown out entirely. They'll get no money and corporate policy will be changed to disallow bags of any sort brought into the store by employees. It's a lose-lose-win, with Apple winning. They should have just put up with it or, you know, not brought in bags.
post #136 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Check state labor laws, in NYC companies are forced to give a 30 minute break for every 4 hours of work.

 

Cry me a river on that one. Yes, in Washington State an 8 hour day garners you a 1 hour break. You can break it up by 15 minute intervals, 30 minute intervals or 1 hour. Your 9 to 5 is actually 9 to 6.

 

Corporations are idiots if they ignore this rule. Not because they will be fined, but because productivity goes in the tank without breaks.

post #137 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Thrown out entirely. They'll get no money and corporate policy will be changed to disallow bags of any sort brought into the store by employees. It's a lose-lose-win, with Apple winning. They should have just put up with it or, you know, not brought in bags.


Thanks. I was just curious what you thought. I'm not sure if that would go over well, and ultimately it matters that the employees still care, as it's difficult to fix poor work culture. You can say not to bring in bags, but women often carry necessary items in their bags rather than pockets. Anyway there's not much I can really add to this.

post #138 of 273

You are kidding right?

I suppose you might live somewhere there is no Apple Store and have not been inside one.

When was the last time you went into an apple store and saw an employee on the phone? I have NEVER seen an apple store worker on the phone on a personal call. Never.the Apple stores near me are SLAMMED from open to close. I can't imagine any time to chat or have a BS session on the phone.

 

Petty? Since when is $1500 petty (the stated value of owed minimum wages?

Time is Money when you work in retail.

If the company wants you to go through security it should be the first thing after clocking in and the last thing before clocking out.

 

YMF

post #139 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

(...)

A company like mine can reserve the right to search bags but here is the thing, the only time the could do so and make it legal is to do the search after you clock out. After all it is no different than shop lifting, if the store wants a shop lifting case to stick they have to grab you as you leave the store with unpaid goods. Otherwise there is always the plausible argument that the person intended to pay for the item when they leave. Since the company is effectively trying to prevent shop lifting the employee realistically has to be off the clock.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Could you maybe shut up and show me where I'm wrong then? Thanks. Otherwise please just move on.

 

This is where you are quite possibly wrong. Wizard69 offers the BEST argument in the whole thread, IMO, but you continue to argue that a woman has no need to carry any type of bag to work. While I personally think this lawsuit is frivolous and without merit....because I, too, am an employer, you cannot possibly suggest that no one needs to carry a bag to work for any reason. That's just simply an unreasonable suggestion and a poor argument.

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post #140 of 273

Okay, real quick, for those of you who haven't been in the labor force for the last 25 years. This is pretty well decided in tort law ,but it's Apple so lawyers being lawyers. Many jobs require employees to arrive early to start work and stay over a leave. It is necessary, specifically for hourly workers, to be ready to work at the time a "shift" begins.

If your work at a bank and work from 8:30am toe 3:00pm, it is expected for you to clear security, stow away your lunch get your coffee and be ready to start work at 8:30 am. I you work as a baggage handler at JFK and you start your shift @ 07:00hrs you are expected to reach the airport early , park your car, clear security , reach your assigned area and clock in @ or Before 07:00hrs,

If you work at an Oil Refinery and you are scheduled to work @ 8:00 am you have to park your car. clear security, attain transport to your jobsight, get into safety equipment and be ready to work at  08:00hrs. Doesn't matter if you clock in @ 07:15hrs. You get paid @ 08:00hrs.

I don't know what world you think you live in but Unions have been fighting for that extra 45 minutes for decades and have been rebuffed. Those same labor laws make this case a non starter. The courts basically say, "you can quit and work at another employer who will pay from the time you leave arrive at the parking lot."

post #141 of 273
Here in Germany it is not uncommon that if you work on an hourly basis that you have to clock out when you go to the bathroom or have a smoke. On the other hand, "strip seatch time" is clearly defined as workong time hete and therefore gets paid. From several previous comments it seems this is not the case in the US, or at least with Apple Retail.
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post #142 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Apple Employees should NEVER be allowed to bring in bags to work. Period.

Some people can't afford to eat out so they need a bag to hold their brought from home food. You can't expect the employees to always have to wear their uniform home, they need a change of clothes. How about medication, female hygiene products, snacks, fluids, change of shoes, ect. Your being silly for even suggesting this, I guess if it doesn't concern you then why not. A iPhone, iPad, Mackbook Mini, software, acessories, ect. are still very easy to remove without a bag
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post #143 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

Are you suggesting that being they still get paid and or promoted that justifies them from stealing time? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

I have my own business. 

 

The well spring of your attitude becomes clear now.  Believing that those moments when your employees are not being dutiful little robots they are actually stealing from you is as gob-smacking as TS's apparent unfamiliarity with women's clothing and the truth that most of their apparel does not contain cargo pouches.  You'd think he'd never seen a woman with a skirt or a dress or a handbag, let alone have a clue as to the sort of items they carry in them.

 

I am picturing your business as being a Victorian era cotton mill or perhaps a clothing factory in Bangladesh that is still quietly smouldering.

post #144 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adre Naline View Post

Okay, real quick, for those of you who haven't been in the labor force for the last 25 years. This is pretty well decided in tort law ,but it's Apple so lawyers being lawyers. Many jobs require employees to arrive early to start work and stay over a leave. It is necessary, specifically for hourly workers, to be ready to work at the time a "shift" begins.

If your work at a bank and work from 8:30am toe 3:00pm, it is expected for you to clear security, stow away your lunch get your coffee and be ready to start work at 8:30 am. I you work as a baggage handler at JFK and you start your shift @ 07:00hrs you are expected to reach the airport early , park your car, clear security , reach your assigned area and clock in @ or Before 07:00hrs,

If you work at an Oil Refinery and you are scheduled to work @ 8:00 am you have to park your car. clear security, attain transport to your jobsight, get into safety equipment and be ready to work at  08:00hrs. Doesn't matter if you clock in @ 07:15hrs. You get paid @ 08:00hrs.

I don't know what world you think you live in but Unions have been fighting for that extra 45 minutes for decades and have been rebuffed. Those same labor laws make this case a non starter. The courts basically say, "you can quit and work at another employer who will pay from the time you leave arrive at the parking lot."

 

Everything you wrote is correct.  I've studied labor laws quite a bit and have had to go to court on both sides before.  However, while what you wrote is correct, it's not relevant to this case. 

 

At issue is what is called compensable time and if you check with the US Department of Labor you'll see that while employers can require employees to show up at a location, dressed and ready to work; once on the job any amount of time that the employee is required to do any activity by the employer is considered compensable.  Specifically in this case, waiting to be searched is considered "engaged to wait".

 

This is much different from your example where the employee is scheduled for 8am, and voluntarily clocks in at 7:15.  It's even different from your example where an employee would realistically need to show up much earlier to park, get to the work area, etc...  A really great example of this is when I worked as an aircraft engineer.  I'd have to arrive 30-45 minutes to the plant to get to my work space in order to perform my job.  However, sometimes my job involved crawling into the inside of a wing all the way to the very end.  This took about an hour to do.  I got paid for the hour of crawling to the end of the wing, not for parking my car, walking to the work place, or suiting up with safety gear and putting whatever I had in my desk.

 

So the big difference here is that at the Apple Store, these employees (claim) they are clocking out, and then "engaged to wait" to be inspected.  This comes up from time to time when employers ask people to finish their work, clock out, and then wait for their area to be inspected (think foodserver and sidework).  Sorry, but the law says they can't do this.  Worse, here is the length of time of the waiting.  It adds up to real money ($1,500 a year).

post #145 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Yep. Here are the main points, all in true statements.

1) People carry bags.
2) People do not have to carry bags.
3) People can carry bags into work at Apple.
4) People do not have to carry bags into work at Apple.
5) Bags are not required for work at Apple.
6) People who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search.
7) People who do not carry bags into work at Apple are not subject to search.
8) If people do not want to be searched, they should not carry bags into work at Apple.

Any further confusion? Now for the only point of contention.

9) As bags are not required for work at Apple, the search through bags carried into work at Apple is off the clock, as the activity is not a required part of work done at Apple.
Your own posts disprove that. 1oyvey.gif

 

Not all of those statements are fully true according to the complaint.  For example, you wrote "People who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."  That should read "Employees who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."  Customers who carry bags into Apple are not searched according to the complaint.

 

There in lies the rub.  It's not a requirement of the location to go through a search.  It's a requirement of employees to be searched before they can leave the workplace.  If they have a bag, the wait for that search is taking up to 1.5 hours per week.  That's an engaged to wait situation for which they aren't be compensated... assuming the complaint is true and accurate.

 

Watch... Apple will settle this one and change their policies.

post #146 of 273

They better or else they will lose employees with this nonsense of theirs.
 

post #147 of 273

I have really mixed feelings about this case. 

 

There are people that have medical conditions that are all but required  to carry some sort of bag containing their medical supplies.  If Apple has people like that suing them in this case, they are going to settle this and settle soon.  It is possible, however, that Apple makes exceptions for those people and no one that fits that description will be in the case.

 

If this case if full of people that think they have a right to carry a bag to work for no good reason,  that's ridiculous.  People that were simply carrying in pocket books full of makeup should have been leaving their bags in the car if they didn't like the policy. 

 

I am going to try and keep up with this case because I would like to hear the arguments the employees make.  Whether or not this case is ridiculous or justified largely depends on what the employees claims are and what their circumstances were.

post #148 of 273
I've worked for about 5 different retailers and most of them required bag checks. I never waited 10-15 minutes and they don't take 5 minutes. You wait less time than that at airport security let alone a retail store.
post #149 of 273
Where the hell did they get the $30 per hour figure for Geniuses? They start at $15 an hour and might make it up to $20 after 7 or 8 years of service if they're lucky. Apple doesn't even pay their people peanuts. Don't believe what you read here.
post #150 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

100% correct, and I bet most of these employees are not productive 100% of the time while at work. 

 

Clearly wage laws should be changed to allow employers to pay employees only for the time that they're productive, in the employer's judgment, with no right of appeal. 

 

/s

 

There's a reason we have wage laws that don't allow that. If an employee is unproductive, the employer can fire him, but they still have to pay him for the hours he reported to work before being fired.

 

Apple will settle this suit, and change its checkout policy to pay employees for the time they wait to have their bags checked*. Those of you who think Apple should fight it are not, I hope, employers of hourly workers; but if you are you're welcome to test your theories regarding pay for productivity rather than hours and see where it gets you.

 

* Apple could also change its policy to refuse employees permission to bring bags to work.**

 

** Or require employees to bring a bag (if they bring one) that can be searched expeditiously. I shouldn't get a half hour of extra pay because I bring a bag with a thousand pockets.


Edited by Arlor - 7/30/13 at 7:05am
post #151 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

…you continue to argue that a woman has no need to carry any type of bag to work.

Correct, as long as the bag is not work-related.
Quote:
…you cannot possibly suggest that no one needs to carry a bag to work for any reason.

I don't recall ever doing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

For example, you wrote "People who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."  That should read "Employees who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."  Customers who carry bags into Apple are not searched according to the complaint.

Indeed; you're correct. I'd edit it, but it's quoted so much now.
Quote:
It's not a requirement of the location to go through a search.

But it's a requirement of employment. That's an entirely different discussion.
post #152 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlor View Post

 

Clearly wage laws should be changed to allow employers to pay employees only for the time that they're productive, in the employer's judgment, with no right of appeal. 

 

/s

 

There's a reason we have wage laws that don't allow that. If an employee is unproductive, the employer can fire him, but they still have to pay him for the hours he reported to work before being fired.

 

Apple will settle this suit, and change its checkout policy to pay employees for the time they wait to have their bags checked*. Those of you who think Apple should fight it are not, I hope, employers of hourly workers; but if you are you're welcome to test your theories regarding pay for productivity rather than hours and see where it gets you.

 

* Apple could also change its policy to refuse employees permission to bring bags to work.**

 

** Or require them to bring bags that can be searched expeditiously. Employees shouldn't get an extra half hour of pay because they bring bags with a thousand pockets.

 

Gah, I was trying to add the second footnote to my previous post. I don't see a way to delete this.

post #153 of 273

Just move the punch clock to the exit, just after the searches.  Fixed.

post #154 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaesumofo View Post

You are kidding right?
I suppose you might live somewhere there is no Apple Store and have not been inside one.
When was the last time you went into an apple store and saw an employee on the phone? I have NEVER seen an apple store worker on the phone on a personal call. Never.the Apple stores near me are SLAMMED from open to close. I can't imagine any time to chat or have a BS session on the phone.

The most I've stayed in an Apple store is 15 minutes. 15 mins doesnt extrapolate to 8 hrs. I guarantee you the average employee gossips and/or checks his/her phones for 5 mins a day while on the clock. Heck, I'm doing it now.
post #155 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

For example, you wrote "People who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."  That should read "Employees who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."  Customers who carry bags into Apple are not searched according to the complaint.

Indeed; you're correct. I'd edit it, but it's quoted so much now.

Huh?

"People who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."

If they're going into work I'd presume it wouldn't be a customer, no?
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post #156 of 273
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

Everything you wrote is correct.  I've studied labor laws quite a bit and have had to go to court on both sides before.  However, while what you wrote is correct, it's not relevant to this case. 

 

I'm sorry, your personal experience with the actual laws involved disqualifies you from commenting on this thread. Please come back when you have emotional knee-jerk reactions with no facts to back them up.

 

- Jasen.

 

P.S. I am not a lawyer. Unless you are one for the jurisdiction involved, I don't put much stock in what you have to say about this case.

P.P.S. The employee vs employer war is on display in spades here. One side: If the employees don't like it, go work somewhere else. Utterly disregarding whether the employer's behavior is legal, just, or fair. On the other: Employers should be held to strict regulations governing the treatment of employees.

post #157 of 273
Having worked at an apple store in the past for 2 years I can promise you this is a big deal for employees. They preach "assume positive intent" yet don't practice it. Every time you leave the building you are required to show your iPhone serial number and a "tech card" which has their devices serial number on it and is singed by a manager. Being in a very busy store, it's never easy to find a manager to "check you out". They're always doing something and sometimes that process takes 10 minutes or more. Not cool when you have a 15 minute break and need to be back on time to support your team.
post #158 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Huh?

"People who carry bags into work at Apple are subject to search."

If they're going into work I'd presume it wouldn't be a customer, no?

 

It's a technicality in the phrasing, but I wanted to be clear, because it's actually very relevant to the case and written in the complaint that only employees are searched, not customers.

 

Also, many Apple Stores are like Starbucks... customers do go there to work.

post #159 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

 

 

Watch... Apple will settle this one and change their policies.

No they won't, because Tallest Skil says they don't have to.

 

Actually, to eliminate the problem entirely, they should come to work and leave....naked! /s

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post #160 of 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

No they won't, because Tallest Skil says they don't have to.

I explicitly said the opposite, but I don't really expect people who don't read posts to, you know, read posts.

I'll agree with you now, though. They certainly don't have to, but they probably will.
Quote:
Actually, to eliminate the problem entirely, they should come to work and leave....naked! /s

Excuse me for a second:

"People have to carry weapons with them. Women particularly."

"Why?"

"People have to carry weapons with them. Women particularly."

That's you.
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