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Galaxy S 4 on steroids: Samsung caught doping in benchmarks - Page 3

post #81 of 153
Slow clap Samsung. Good job.
post #82 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjc999 View Post

It's Quack.exe all over again. Newsflash, people try to cheat in benchmarks, they've been doing it for a long time, and Beyond3D has been a community at the forefront of catching GPU cheaters.

Apple is guilty of cherry picking benchmarks themselves. There's no evidence of boosting (although it's a bit harder to analyze iOS firmware internals), but Apple classically cherry picks benchmarks presented at MacWorlds and WWDCs to make their products look better, by specifically avoiding benchmarks where they do very badly. For example, in Web Browser benchmarks, they run selectively, a single benchmark, either JSBench or Sun Spider, depending on, at that particular time, whether they are doing better, unlike say, AnandTech which runs Kraken, Octane, Dromaeo, et al.

They also have a habit of selectively omitting information in order to make things seem more innovative than they are, like Timer Coalescing in Mavericks, a feature which has been in Windows and Linux for *years* before Mavericks. Late to the party, but trumped up like something hugely innovative on their part.
Ph.D in computer science or Ph.D in troll?
post #83 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJones View Post

This wasn't about cherry-picking the benchmarks. It was about lying and cheating at the benchmarks which as you state there is no proof Apple does. But you've still gotta try to find a way to smear them anyway, right?

 

Yes, Windows has had Timer Coalescing since Windows 7, but it also requires that applications specifically opt-in for it according to this whitepaper on the subject. Mavericks does not so that makes it a more useful. Either way both Windows and Linux have only really had Timer coalescing for a handful of years. You make it sound like they've had it for much longer which simply isn't true. Also, innovation is more than simply doing something first. It is also about taking existing ideas and doing them in a much better way than anyone before you.

It is simply not true that allowing application opt in/out makes timer coalesing less useful. Mavericks also allows applications to opt out. 

post #84 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selva Raj View Post


Ph.D in computer science or Ph.D in troll?

Neither. Someone with a PhD in comp. sci. would not really care about such benchmarks. A PhD in troll would be more skilled, and not so easily detectable.

post #85 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by QAMF View Post


THE CLOCK RATE MAXES AT 480 INSTEAD OF 533.  NOT 300 LIKE APPLEINSIDER IS CLAIMING.

is it bad still, yes.  But not as bad as they are saying.

Probably because almost all companies do this in one way or another.

Why?  Almost every company does this for different benchmarks?  This would be like telling you family to avoid Intel because they do tons of optimizations when they run their benchmarks for their claims?

No, it does not.  The chip runs at 533Mhz (well, 532 according to anandtech) during some benchmarks.  Otherwise it caps at 480Mhz.

There is nothing that talks about the specifications on the feature page, and the fine print would take care of it.

You technically can get the GPU to hit the rate they provided, just not in a useful manner.

No.  At least, I don't see what it would be about.

You can still hit that clock rate, you just cannot do it in a useful manner.

-QAMF

 

Don't care and will now ignore you.

 

I am not interested in apologists for Samsung's bullshit.

 

Samsung, ruthlessly crushing any competition.

 

HTC and others don't stand a chance.

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post #86 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

It is simply not true that allowing application opt in/out makes timer coalesing less useful. Mavericks also allows applications to opt out. 

Having to explicitly opt-in to timer coalescing does make it less useful because many applications will never opt-in for a variety of reasons (major one being that you are running an application written before the feature ever existed and may never be updated to opt-in to the feature) and thus will never take advantage of it. The fact that you can take advantage of timer coalescing without an opt-in does make it more useful on Mavericks. The part about opting-out seems to be something you invented from whole cloth and seems to be some sort of strawman you're beating.

 

Edited to add:

 

And the opt-out you are talking about is for App Nap not Timer Coalescing. They are not the same thing.

post #87 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

It is simply not true that allowing application opt in/out makes timer coalesing less useful. Mavericks also allows applications to opt out. 

Nonsense.

With Apple's method, you'll get the benefit immediately. With Microsoft's method, you need to upgrade your apps and manually allow it in order to get ANY benefit. How is Apple's method not more useful?
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #88 of 153
a
post #89 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Watson View Post

What a bunch of hypocrites you all are. I bet you wouldnt dare to talk shit about apple, you were all the first to defend when apple was guilty of price fixing and could possibly be fined 500 mill, or foxconn workers suiciding because of poor working conditions. Pathetic. Wow, defending multi billion dollar companies that don't give a shit about you.

Apple insider, why don't you grow a pair and adopt professional journalism? Do you see android central talking shit about apple? This site is a joke.

 

Now, that you've got that out of your system why don't you f*ck off to whichever shitty android site you prefer?

 

Samsung is faking these things to mislead you, the only Android handset they want you to buy is a Samsung one.

 

They are killing alternative manufacturers and will do anything to achieve that.

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post #90 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Watson View Post

What a bunch of hypocrites you all are. I bet you wouldnt dare to talk shit about apple, you were all the first to defend when apple was guilty of price fixing and could possibly be fined 500 mill, or foxconn workers suiciding because of poor working conditions. Pathetic. Wow, defending multi billion dollar companies that don't give a shit about you.

Apple insider, why don't you grow a pair and adopt professional journalism? Do you see android central talking shit about apple? This site is a joke.

U MAD BRO?

This site may be a joke, but at least you can't deny the truth about Samsung's dishonesty: and they will never live it down. Hate on Apple and DED all you want, but in the end, Samsung did this to themselves.

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post #91 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Nonsense.

With Apple's method, you'll get the benefit immediately. With Microsoft's method, you need to upgrade your apps and manually allow it in order to get ANY benefit. How is Apple's method not more useful?

Because he has no clue what he is talking about. His second part about the "opt-out" isn't even correct as the opt-out he is referring to is for the App Nap feature not timer coalescing.

post #92 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ankleskater View Post

Neither. Someone with a PhD in comp. sci. would not really care about such benchmarks. A PhD in troll would be more skilled, and not so easily detectable.

You could say I have so much experience trolling that I have an "equivalent" to a Masters Degree in Trolling. ;-)

 

What I use at home: 2 iPads, 2 iPad minis, Retina MacBook, Mac Pro (old model), 2 Apple TVs, and a PC for desktop gaming. I have an Apple household, I love Apple products, but I hate the conduct of Apple zealots, and I dislike Apple's resort to litigiousness because I am in favor of openness, copying, hacking, and freedom overall, and I do not like the growing way our use of computing is becoming more locked down, more censored and controlled by carriers, governments, and OS vendors. 

 

To quote Samuel L Jackson, the sheep need to wake the f-up, and stop mindlessly engaging in tribalism and defense of a company with $100+ billion in the bank. They need to demand better.

post #93 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by b9bot View Post

Samsung is such a tool. It copies everyones tech and cheats every way it can to try and impress nobody.
Lame!irked.gif

 

"It" puts the lotion on "its" skin otherwise it gets the hose again. 1wink.gif  But seriously, the only less ethical company I know of was Enron.

post #94 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It probably won't generate a lawsuit because Samsung doesn't advertise the results of that particular benchmark. They let their shills do it for them.

Paid ones, I suppose.

Sigh.

I see your point.
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post #95 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Watson View Post

What a bunch of hypocrites you all are. I bet you wouldnt dare to talk shit about apple, you were all the first to defend when apple was guilty of price fixing and could possibly be fined 500 mill, or foxconn workers suiciding because of poor working conditions. Pathetic. Wow, defending multi billion dollar companies that don't give a shit about you.

Apple insider, why don't you grow a pair and adopt professional journalism? Do you see android central talking shit about apple? This site is a joke.

 

Really? How much you was paid?
post #96 of 153
Apologist position #1: "Everyone cheats on benchmarks!"

Apologist position #2: "DED is so desperate to attack Apple's competitors that he comes across as an unprofessional fanboy this site is a joke"

Did I miss one?

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post #97 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ochyming View Post

 

Really?How much you was paid?

If it was more than nothing it was way too much.

post #98 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Apologist position #1: "Everyone cheats on benchmarks!"

Apologist position #2: "DED is so desperate to attack Apple's competitors that he comes across as an unprofessional fanboy this site is a joke"

Did I miss one?

There's a few great ones in this thread. The Fandroid defense army is out in full force today.

post #99 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Yes, both are essentially worthless except for when they're not.  On that I agree.

Now, that's a worthless comment (unless it's not).

post #100 of 153

See, the reason Samsung over clocked the benchmarks is because Android is open and most users will over clock their S4s too, so it is more representative of the performance one can expect once your S4 is properly over clocked. /s

 

How's that?

 

http://www.android.gs/overclock-t-mobile-galaxy-s4/

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post #101 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post
 

Hm, odd how you typed your post.... anyhow, look above.  I apologized.  It was a stupid mistake, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

 

I completely disagree.  Benchmarks numbers are used to advertise your product as faster than your competitor for running apps.  Over clocking your processor only to run the benchmark, and not to run any other apps is flat out intentional fraudulent advertising.

Raised by someone in the advertising biz, my understanding is they won't be sued.

If anything, this is better than compiler stuff (like Intel was found recently making a string of code into all 0s or something like that) imho, because, Samsung can do a driver update to allow the clocks to hit 533 in real world usage.

-QAMF

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post #102 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

See, the reason Samsung over clocked the benchmarks is because Android is open and most users will over clock their S4s too, so it is more representative of the performance one can expect once your S4 is properly over clocked. /s

How's that?

http://www.android.gs/overclock-t-mobile-galaxy-s4/
Overclocking cpu or gpu?
post #103 of 153
What do you expect from a company run by someone who has been charged with embezzlement, tax evasion, fraud, and bribery?

http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/11/30/3709688/samsung-25-years-lee-kun-hee

   

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post #104 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

See, the reason Samsung over clocked the benchmarks is because Android is open and most users will over clock their S4s too, so it is more representative of the performance one can expect once your S4 is properly over clocked. /s

How's that?

http://www.android.gs/overclock-t-mobile-galaxy-s4/

ooh - that's good. Very good.
post #105 of 153
Class action lawsuit time. Find some Samsung owners who made buying decisions based on these tests and it's a pretty clear case of deliberate deceit.

Runs afoul of a number of consumer protection laws in the US and elsewhere.

Something tells me this isn't going away.
post #106 of 153
Should we call this Benchmarkgate?

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post #107 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Should we call this Benchmarkgate?

no, GPUclockgate is mode like it.

This does not change the benchmarks or the compiler, it changes the GPU clock.

This is why I don't understand ALL of the rage, this is A LOT better than antutu stuff Intel did.  Samsung can always enable up to 533Mhz operation over an update.  At least, it should be able to.

I still am trying to figure out why people consider this a much larger deal than what Intel (and I am certain other companies like Intel do this also fwiw) does.

Probably because Samsung is the root of evil?

-Q

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post #108 of 153

So just checked theVerge, and not once mention of this benchmark cheating, even when they're so quick to publish every sensational negative Apple story that they can, only to go back after and "correct it" after it's fallen to the back pages. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that there's ginormous Samsung ads on the site. Nope. 

post #109 of 153
What do you expect from serial cheats! Samsung has no shame - it may be part of the culture to ignore IP, but they have taken it to new heights, with no end in sight.
post #110 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by QAMF View Post

no, GPUclockgate is mode like it.

This does not change the benchmarks or the compiler, it changes the GPU clock.

This is why I don't understand ALL of the rage, this is A LOT better than antutu stuff Intel did.  Samsung can always enable up to 533Mhz operation over an update.  At least, it should be able to.

I still am trying to figure out why people consider this a much larger deal than what Intel (and I am certain other companies like Intel do this also fwiw) does.

Probably because Samsung is the root of evil?

-Q

 

What a ridiculous post, and a classic example of the intellectually dishonest type of apologizing and justifying the actions of a company by grasping at straws. 

 

- So because some other company did something in the past that you think is worse, you don't "understand" why people are upset at this, and why it's wrong? Brilliant analysis and reasoning there. Who the **** cares what intel did way back when? Who cares if it's worse? How is that even relevant? 

 

- Do you REALLY think Samsung is going to enable clock speed increase over an update? Why would you even think this? Wouldn't they have released it like that if they planned to? Would they have SPECIFIC CODE to only increase the clockspeed during certain benchmarking tests if they planned to? No, you know that's highly unlikely, yet you throw out that "possibility" in order to muddy the water and create an imaginary scenario that doesn't exist. 

 

- You create a strawman that people believe that Samsung is the "root of all evil", in order to insult everyone, because clearly that is the only plausible explanation that people are saying anything against Samsung. It's a disgusting form of intellectual dishonesty in trying to pretend there is no point to be made. Samsung is not the root of all evil, but objective, reasonable people can aknowledge that Samsung has shown, time and time again, and it practises very dishonest and underhanded tactics in every aspect of it's business. But people like you take great offense to this rational observation.

 

I would take even greater issue with this if Apple engaged in the same practise, which would utterly disgust me. I would not be defending them as you're doing with Samsung now. How you can defend and this support this dishonest behavior, no matter who engaged in it previously, is beyond me. 


Edited by Slurpy - 7/30/13 at 2:13pm
post #111 of 153
Funny... This article reminded me of a song:

NEIL DIAMOND - SONG SUNG BLUE LYRICS

Song Sung Blue
Everybody knows one
Song Sung Blue
Every Garden Grows One

Me And You Are Subject To The Blues Now And Then
But When You Take The Blues And Make A Song
You Sing Them Out Again
Sing Them Out Again

Song Sung Blue
Weeping like a willow
Song Sung Blue
Sleeping On My Pillow

Funny Thing, But You Can Sing It With A Cry In Your Voice
And Before You Know, Start To Feeling Good
You Simply Got No Choice

Song Sung Blue
Everybody knows one
Song Sung Blue
Every Garden Grows One



I figured I could have some fun changing a few words in the lyrics,,,


Mmmm... Better, yet -- Here's the song playing on a Galaxy S4 -- Follow The Bouncing Ball:


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/30/13 at 2:22pm
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #112 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

See, the reason Samsung over clocked the benchmarks is because Android is open and most users will over clock their S4s too, so it is more representative of the performance one can expect once your S4 is properly over clocked. /s

How's that?

http://www.android.gs/overclock-t-mobile-galaxy-s4/

I like icon on the top left of the site. Exactly how I imagine those who would be into this...
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post #113 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

What a ridiculous post, and a classic example of the intellectually dishonest type of apologizing and justifying the actions of a company by grasping at straws. 

 

- So because some other company did something in the past that you think is worse, you don't "understand" why people are upset at this, and why it's wrong? Brilliant analysis and reasoning there. Who the **** cares what intel did way back when? Who cares if it's worse? How is that even relevant? 

 

- Do you REALLY think Samsung is going to enable clock speed increase over an update? Why would you even think this? Wouldn't they have released it like that if they planned to? Would they have SPECIFIC CODE to only increase the clockspeed during certain benchmarking tests if they planned to? No, you know that's highly unlikely, yet you throw out that "possibility" in order to muddy the water and create an imaginary scenario that doesn't exist. 

1. Intel STILL IS DOING TI!!!! THEY JUST HAVE A DISCLAIMER NOW.  THEY STILL DO IT!

2.  Samsung could enable it over an update.  Would it require lots of work on them?  Yes,

I won't even respond to your other points.  And I am not defending Samsung, I am saying there are others that are currently doing worse things.  Like Intel and Antutu.

-QAMF

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post #114 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

See, the reason Samsung over clocked the benchmarks is because Android is open and most users will over clock their S4s too, so it is more representative of the performance one can expect once your S4 is properly over clocked. /s

How's that?

http://www.android.gs/overclock-t-mobile-galaxy-s4/

I like icon on the top left of the site. Exactly how I imagine those who would be into this...

Mmmm... some similarity...





Now Clark Kent without the glasses:

"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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- Michael Lille -
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post #115 of 153
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... or simply "remove the optimization altogether."

 

Samsung doesn't need to juice their code to run benchmarks faster.  They've already killed off their Android handset competitors (see the AI post about "HTC Warns of its First Ever Operating Loss": http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/30/htc-warns-of-its-first-ever-operating-loss-will-reduce-focus-on-high-end-smartphones).  

 

And specs and benchmark speeds mean nothing to the consumer market.  Nobody wants to walk around saying "My Galaxy S4 experience sucks, but the thing sure is fast."

 

So why does Samsung feel the need to waste time and energy on cheating at benchmarks?  Because it's in their nature.  They'll lie, cheat, and steal.  It's baked into their corporate DNA.  Just ask Samsung's competitors in the refrigerator market.  Search for "samsung dumping refrigerators in the US" for plenty of stories about Samsung's appliance marketing tactics.

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post #116 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Should we call this Benchmarkgate?

There will be no *gate for this ... it's Samsung! Only Apple can have a *gate (stargate?). If Apple had done this, it would probably be SuperCheatingScumGate! Senators would be calling for investigations and action!

post #117 of 153

Yeah, this sucks and everything, but most people won't care when they come in to buy one of these. Its not like they bought it because its supposed graphics powerhouse in the first place. 

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post #118 of 153
All they need now is ARod as their spokesperson.
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post #119 of 153

This is in poor taste, it just goes to show how much of a disappointment Exynos 5410 really was. I still think the PowerVR 5 series GPU was the real mistake.

 

All of the Exynos bashing is also in poor taste, the Exynos 5250 (2x A15 + Mali-T604 MP4) inside of the Nexus 10 is a great SoC. Samsung's new Exynos 5420 (4x A15 + 4x A7 + Mali-T628 MP6) also has a lot of promise (unlike 5410 it can use all 8 cores at once). Exynos has always performed when paired with a Mali GPU.

 

The other thing worth noting, the Exynos 5410 was only used in the international version of the Galaxy S4 and was the weakest of the different variants.

 

The Galaxy S4 LTE uses Qualcomm's Snapdragon 600 and the LTE-Advanced model uses Snapdragon 800.

post #120 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by QAMF View Post

1. Intel STILL IS DOING TI!!!! THEY JUST HAVE A DISCLAIMER NOW.  THEY STILL DO IT!

2.  Samsung could enable it over an update.  Would it require lots of work on them?  Yes,

I won't even respond to your other points.  And I am not defending Samsung, I am saying there are others that are currently doing worse things.  Like Intel and Antutu.

-QAMF

1) So what? How does that absolve Samsung of any guilt?

2) They could but do you have any proof that they would?

 

And, yes, you are defending Samsung. Playing the "this isn't so bad because [insert other person/company/thing] did [insert thing they did] and it's worse!!" No one here has defended what Intel did so what is the point of bringing it up other than to deflect from Samsung's guilt?

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