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Google to become official Starbucks ISP as critics claim net neutrality backpedal - Page 2

post #41 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

If ISPs didn't restrict the Internet, I'm confident we'd see some easy turnkey solutions for Jane and Joe Consumer to host their own personal mail and web services.

I'm not sure if you know this but you can get hosting for like $10 a month and you don't even have to pay for the electricity.

 

The other difference between business and home Internet service is for business they have guaranteed service uptime where as at home they can interrupt the service for outages, maintenance whatever and you do not usually get any compensation.

 

Also for business you often get a direct fiber connection all the way to the data center where in a home situation you are on a shared network that can bog down when too many users are online in your neighborhood.


Edited by mstone - 8/1/13 at 1:50pm

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post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I'm not sure if you know this but you can get hosting for like $10 a month and you don't even have to pay for the electricity.

 

I'm personally paying $7/month.  It's a couple of clicks to set up services like wikis, forums, blogs, email accounts, multiple virtual hosts, etc.  Plus guaranteed uptime, really large data caps, no power and hardware maintenance costs, etc (as you mentioned).  No brainer to let someone else handle the headache for that price.

 
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post #43 of 85
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Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

 

Very few people in this forum or other forums would complain about Google & ads if Google and Apple weren't competitors. Few complained about Google's ads prior to Android.  But people feel they need to justify their position (on both sides) by painting the competition as evil. 

 

It's pretty much high school, you're either at the nerd table or the cool kid table.

I sometimes wonder why people need to think higher of themselves when they support a dubious company. If you're fine with Google then fine, whatever works with you. It's your business after all. Just don't try to justify yourselves. This is just one example where's in the end we don't know what Google will do because frankly I don't think their words are trustworthy anymore. Do you trust a company who was ordered to delete datas but still keep that said datas?

Check Google history thoroughly before you trust any words they said. What they did and what they said is not always the same thing.


Edited by matrix07 - 8/1/13 at 2:53pm
post #44 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

Can't wait to see how many people chime in to say they'll avoid Starbucks now. Go on, then. Let's hear it.

Is the Kool-Aid better than coffee? ;-)

We all have to do our part. 1biggrin.gif

Nice font. /s
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post #45 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Wouldn't it be better to list several ISP's that don't' put any limits on the use of consumer data connections for commercial server purposes? Otherwise you've done nothing to disprove what I said.1confused.gif

I haven't had to shop for an ISP in over 10 years, but try sonic.net or megapath.

post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I never drink blends. Single origin is the only way to go for me. I only drink micro-lots, preferably shade grown above 1400 meter on west facing slopes of a volcano near the coast with onshore prevailing wind.

Sounds yummie!!! Nothing wrong with blends, though. They are a way for sellers to create a distinctive, unique taste. Garuda Blend is one such.

post #47 of 85
Does it mean that the ATTWIFI SSID will disappear from SBX? Will my iPhone get updated so it automatically connects to the new network. I remember this was a selling point when AT&T first rolled out the iPhone.
post #48 of 85
Google: hey we're all for net neutrality as long as we can scan every bit of data running across our network. Don't worry, you can trust us.
post #49 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

I haven't had to shop for an ISP in over 10 years, but try sonic.net or megapath.

Nope. Sonic.net isn't an ISP as much as a provider of commercial hosting services. Even then they place restrictions on how servers are used on their network too..
http://www.netsonic.net/tos.php
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post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I never drink blends. Single origin is the only way to go for me. I only drink micro-lots, preferably shade grown above 1400 meter on west facing slopes of a volcano near the coast with onshore prevailing wind.

Sounds yummie!!! Nothing wrong with blends, though. They are a way for sellers to create a distinctive, unique taste. Garuda Blend is one such.

It would be criminal to blend any of my coffees.

 

Growing is only part of the process of what we call 'seed to cup'.  

 

Picking only the red ripe cherries, then using a washed process and patio drying to 20% moisture, screening it to #16 then letting it rest in parchment for 30 days.

 

Finally it will be milled, then vacuum packed and immediately delivered to an artisan roaster who will sample cup it and determine the proper roast profile, usually very light.

 

Then exactly 3 days after roasting using a conical bur grinder set the size for your brewing method and grind it just before brewing with exactly 93 ° C water which has been filtered with reverse osmosis and then had the appropriate mineral content added back in to simulate spring water but purified. ( commercial bottled water without Fluoride)

 

Only use professional brewing methods. If you don't have a Clover then french press or pour over paper filter is fine as long as the brewing time is ideal for each method. For example in a pour over situation you would like the finer granules to be in contact with the hot water for only 20-30 seconds, no more than that or you run the risk of dissolving some rather nasty tasting oils that should not be in your coffee.

 

Let it cool for 3-5 minutes and drink it black.

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post #51 of 85
Goggle won't stop me from going to starbucks because when I go there that's the only thing I do, get coffee
post #52 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Nope. Sonic.net isn't an ISP as much as a provider of commercial hosting services. Even then they place restrictions on how servers are used on their network too..
http://www.netsonic.net/tos.php

Netsonic is sonic? I don't think so.

http://www.sonic.net/company/

 

Sonic.net is an ISP. What is the problem with its terms of service? I don't see anything prohibiting the customer from setting up their own servers. Question is whether a "home" customer can obtain a static IP or if a more expensive "business" account is necessary.

Same for megapath.

post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

It's a shame you've never been able to understand they don't sell your data to advertisers. I don't think most people would have such a hard time with the concept. They instead sell their knowledge, placing the ads for the companies based on what Google thinks you'd be interested in. They're not always right by a long shot.

If they sold the data they wouldn't be needed any longer. 1hmm.gif

And what YOU don't understand is that Google's entire business model is based on gathering information about everyone they can - and then selling information. No one said that they sell information about an individual AS individual information. But they most certainly DO gather your information and sell aggregated information (mostly in the form of targeted advertising) to their customers.
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post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

And what YOU don't understand is that Google's entire business model is based on gathering information about everyone they can - and then selling information. No one said that they sell information about an individual AS individual information. But they most certainly DO gather your information and sell aggregated information (mostly in the form of targeted advertising) to their customers.

Why would Google sell any information they've put together, aggregated or not? I've no idea where you get the idea that's the way their business works. They make money from placing ads for companies, not selling them the info to do it themselves. Do a little research on how Google's business works. It's not a secret and pretty straightforward.

if you understand how Apple makes money from delivering iAds based on their user's profiles then you understand how Google does too. It's the same general idea. Google's just better at it for now.
Edited by Gatorguy - 8/14/13 at 5:20am
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post #55 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gusy32 View Post

Goggle won't stop me from going to starbucks because when I go there that's the only thing I do, get coffee

As alluded to by an earlier poster, even if you don't use the wi-fi at Starbucks, Google will know when you're at a Starbucks and perhaps even monitor your movements within the store, by tracking your smartphone's wi-fi MAC address and potentially linking it to your use of the smartphone at home and elsewhere. To prevent this avenue of tracking, turn wi-fi off. Tracking with the cellular modem is still done by your cellular service provider and potentially Apple unless airplane mode is enabled.

 

The City of San Francisco recently announced free wi-fi will be funded by Google in several parks for 2 years. You can bet Google will be monitoring the crap out of people wandering around those parks, whether they use the wi-fi or not.


Edited by Cpsro - 8/1/13 at 2:52pm
post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Why would Google sell any information they've put together, aggregated or not? I've no idea where you get the idea that's the way their business works. 

Exactly. Google's business model includes maintaining exclusive access to its tracking and bugging data, so it can customize the Internet and the ads to your preferences.

post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Exactly. Google's business model is to maintain exclusive access to its tracking and bugging data, so it can customize the Internet and the ads to your preferences.

There ya go. You pretty much get it (other than the part about customizing the internet)! Perhaps you can explain it to JR.
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post #58 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

 

Sonic.net is an ISP

 

 

We're talking about the companies that have fiber or coax in the street outside your home.

 

Exactly how does Sonic get the Internet into your home?

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post #59 of 85
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

We all have to do our part. 1biggrin.gif

Nice font. /s

Yeah for some reason when I post from my work laptop, the font comes out weird, no matter how many times I change it. Sorry about that
post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

 

 

We're talking about the companies that have fiber or coax in the street outside your home.

 

Exactly how does Sonic get the Internet into your home?

DSL is almost always an option.

 

Check this out: http://www.sonic.net/solutions/home/internet/fusion/

Get one static IP at no extra cost.

post #61 of 85
I wonder if Google will have the good sense to put a password on the wifi so it's not so easy for someone to sniff your data right out of the air. I never use public wifi for that reason.
post #62 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Exactly. Google's business model is to maintain exclusive access to its tracking and bugging data, so it can customize the Internet and the ads to your preferences.

There ya go. You pretty much get it (other than the part about customizing the internet)! Perhaps you can explain it to JR.

It only works well if they have their cookies in your browser. I'm not sure what the privacy setting in Safari means when they say block third parties and advertisers. Go look in your details and you'll probably see hundreds of cookies, local storage and cache from websites you have never knowingly visited. Google will probably have about ten or so in there.

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post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Netsonic is sonic? I don't think so.
http://www.sonic.net/company/

Sonic.net is an ISP. What is the problem with its terms of service? I don't see anything prohibiting the customer from setting up their own servers. Question is whether a "home" customer can obtain a static IP or if a more expensive "business" account is necessary.
Same for megapath.

Ah. sorry about that.
1embarassed.gif

Anyway, Sonic.net has different service levels for consumer service than for small business or enterprise don't they? I think they have a set quota for data transfers, capping the usage for consumers and pushing big users to enterprise service.
https://wiki.sonic.net/wiki/Personal_Hosting

It's not worth looking for the exception to the rule in any case. It's certainly not a net neutrality issue when an ISP puts limits on certain account types so that other users of those lines aren't negatively impacted by one or two piggies eating up the bandwidth. It's a common restriction. I'm sure you'd agree it wouldn't be fair if your own residential service was affected by your neighbors' streaming video delivery service. You agree?
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post #64 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

DSL is almost always an option.

 

Check this out: http://www.sonic.net/solutions/home/internet/fusion/

Get one static IP at no extra cost.

Cool I forgot about DSL about 10 years ago. What's the data cap and overage charges?

 

The static IP does you no good regarding a mail server though because no other mail server will accept your SMTP as it will be untrusted unless you can get Sonic to also give you a reverse look up for your domain. In fact many home user focused ISP will not allow SMTP traffic on the network forcing you to only use their mail server for concerns about spam.

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post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Ah. sorry about that.
1embarassed.gif

Anyway, Sonic.net has different service levels for consumer service than for small business or enterprise don't they? I think they have a set quota for data transfers, capping the usage for consumers and pushing big users to enterprise service.
https://wiki.sonic.net/wiki/Personal_Hosting

It's not worth looking for the exception to the rule in any case.

Google and Yahoo are not the rule. They're just companies who must abide by the laws and regulations. If the public doesn't hold them accountable, we can only blame ourselves for the consequences.

 

Check megapath.com, too, by the way--they're not Northern California-centric like sonic.net currently is.

post #66 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Google and Yahoo are not the rule. They're just companies who must abide by the laws and regulations. If the public doesn't hold them accountable, we can only blame ourselves for the consequences.

Check megapath.com, too, by the way--they're not Northern California-centric like sonic.net currently is.
You avoided my question. Would you consider it OK if your neighbors residential data line running a streaming video server negatively affected your own service?
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post #67 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


You avoided my question. Would you consider it OK if your neighbors residential data line running a streaming video server negatively affected your own service?

If it did, that would be a bother, but it's not likely to be significant when upstream data rates are as slow as they are.

post #68 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


There ya go. You pretty much get it (other than the part about customizing the internet)! Perhaps you can explain it to JR.

Re: customizing the Internet, Google personalizes search results and news listings, not just ads.

post #69 of 85
Ah, that's what you meant.
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post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

This is the only good thing Google has ever done.

Wait until Amazon, Apple, Microsoft and a host of other competitors services are throttled or denied access.
post #71 of 85

Good for 'Google' & the customers. Existing Att wifi at the three local Starbucks is weak.

As for privacy, don't be too concerned.

If you've been using a cellphone, or any other web connected device without encryption, assume you've being sniffed and/or tracked.

At least Google is upfront with how they collect and use the customer data.

What's your home ISP provider collecting? They get to see everything.

post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

This is the only good thing Google has ever done.

Still it is strange that I'm not ok with Google being my ISP and feel perfectly fine that my ISP is monitoring my data for offensive or illegal material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

I was seriously confused by the net neutrality claims. Every ISP I have been with disallowed customers from using their bandwidth for serving data (e.g. web server).

My ISP (in The Netherlands) is fine with its customers running a mail- or webserver. Torrents work, too. In fact, it's not even illegal to download copyright material; it's just not allowed to upload. Still, I torrent Top Gear episodes and I'm sure that is copyright material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Ads aren't evil. Many of us just don't care for them despite the fact we appreciate the valuable and free services we get that the advertisers pay for in our stead.

I'm weird; I don't like things that are free. I'd rather pay a subscription to this site and get an ad-free page on my iPad. At least I can block them on my Mac.

Never liked free stuff: somewhere, somehow, someone is paying for the products or services offered.
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post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The static IP does you no good regarding a mail server though because no other mail server will accept your SMTP as it will be untrusted unless you can get Sonic to also give you a reverse look up for your domain.

What's the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"?

http://corp.sonic.net/status/2005/01/27/new-dsl-reverse-dns-tool-1764/

 

My recollection is Megapath also provides reverse DNS but I don't know if it's directly user-configurable or if it requires a phone call to support.

post #74 of 85
edit
Edited by Gatorguy - 8/14/13 at 5:18am
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post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Still it is strange that I'm not ok with Google being my ISP and feel perfectly fine that my ISP is monitoring my data for offensive or illegal material.

 

Perhaps because of this?

 
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post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


ATT already did that, monetizing your data and location even if Google wasn't.
http://adworks.att.com/

Ads aren't evil. Many of us just don't care for them despite the fact we appreciate the valuable and free services we get that the advertisers pay for in our stead.

 

"Ads aren't evil"

 

Let's talk about this for a minute, because it gets to the crux of the matter.

 

Ads by themselves are not evil.  And even contextual ads are not evil.  Contextual ads have been used for at least 50 years on television, radio, magazines, newspapers, etc.  It only makes sense to advertise toys during a kids show, and pickup trucks during football games.  But NONE OF THIS REQUIRES ANY STORED KNOWLEDGE ABOUT INDIVIDUALS.  [i]That[/i] is the difference.  General ads and contextual ads do not stomp on personal privacy.

 

On the other hand, what Google excels at is not just advertising, but capturing individual, personal data.  Virtually everywhere on the internet, always.  Schmidt admitted that Google doesn't just want to serve ads, but they want to understand where you go, what you do, what you THINK, and they want to be able to predict what you're going to do in the future at a give time or place.  Many other companies try to do this as well, but there is no organization on the planet that is as good at it as Google, which makes them the most dangerous, and arguably "the most evil".  What they are doing is incredibly invasive, totally unregulated (but slowly, this will change), and is not even restricted to only those people who have chosen to use their services.  This last part is perhaps the most troubling of all.

 

Ads themselves are not evil, but creating profiles of individuals IS evil, especially when so much of the data collection is covert and/or not well understood by those who are being surveilled.

 

Please admit this fact, and perhaps some of the things you say will make better sense in context.

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post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

"Ads aren't evil"

Let's talk about this for a minute, because it gets to the crux of the matter.

Ads by themselves are not evil.  And even contextual ads are not evil.  Contextual ads have been used for at least 50 years on television, radio, magazines, newspapers, etc.  It only makes sense to advertise toys during a kids show, and pickup trucks during football games.  But NONE OF THIS REQUIRES ANY STORED KNOWLEDGE ABOUT INDIVIDUALS.  That is the difference.  General ads and contextual ads do not stomp on personal privacy.

On the other hand, what Google excels at is not just advertising, but capturing individual, personal data.  Virtually everywhere on the internet, always.  Schmidt admitted that Google doesn't just want to serve ads, but they want to understand where you go, what you do, what you THINK, and they want to be able to predict what you're going to do in the future at a give time or place.  Many other companies try to do this as well, but there is no organization on the planet that is as good at it as Google, which makes them the most dangerous, and arguably "the most evil".  What they are doing is incredibly invasive, totally unregulated (but slowly, this will change), and is not even restricted to only those people who have chosen to use their services.  This last part is perhaps the most troubling of all.

Ads themselves are not evil, but creating profiles of individuals IS evil, especially when so much of the data collection is covert and/or not well understood by those who are being surveilled. Or perhaps you're saying that Apple won't be evil too until they are demonstrably successful with ad targeting based on user data?

Please admit this fact, and perhaps some of the things you say will make better sense in context.

I'm sorry but I just can't get as worked up as you when, unlike the credit reporting agencies or even some of the service providers, they don't sell any of that data to others to do with as they see fit. Unless of course you can pinpoint some nefarious use Google makes of what they know. Targeted ads are hardly a nefarious use. Afterall even Apple does it and we already know they only have the best interests of their users at heart. Or perhaps what you're saying is a company like Apple won't be truly evil until they're demonstrably successful with targeted apps using their customers profiles? That success may be right around the corner. With iRadio and some other recent Apple initiatives they may be making some headway in monetizing their userbase.
Edited by Gatorguy - 8/2/13 at 11:24am
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post #78 of 85


Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post
I'm weird; I don't like things that are free. I'd rather pay a subscription to this site and get an ad-free page on my iPad. At least I can block them on my Mac.
Never liked free stuff: somewhere, somehow, someone is paying for the products or services offered.

 

It may be weird, but you're not alone.  I'll take it a step further: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE!  Period.  Not just on the internet, but anywhere.

 

Just because something does not require payment of money, doesn't mean it's free.  Thankfully, at least some small portion of the population is very slowly becoming aware of this.

 

 

Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Still it is strange that I'm not ok with Google being my ISP and feel perfectly fine that my ISP is monitoring my data for offensive or illegal material.

 

 

I certainly don't feel fine with the latter, but the reason it feels so dirty with Google is because they are literally everywhere.  They have their fingers in more of most peoples' orifices than even their users understand.  With your ISP, at least they're only listening to everything on your home connection.  Unless you take very active measures, Google is listening to you at home, on your mobile, at work, at the coffee shop, and soon at the parks and anywhere else they can.

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post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

With your ISP, at least they're only listening to everything on your home connection.  Unless you take very active measures, Google is listening to you at home, on your mobile, at work, at the coffee shop, and soon at the parks and anywhere else they can.

 

Are you talking about using free WiFi?    As you said, there's no such thing as "free".

 

I never use WiFi for sensitive stuff outside of my own home or work.   Everywhere else I use LTE.

 

As for Google, they don't worry me.  They don't sell my personal info to anyone.  They just sell ad slots.

 

I usually like that they know my location and preferences so I get the best results.   Plus I have a level of control over what they keep, via the Dashboard.  And when I don't think that's enough, I sign out and go anonymous.

 

--

 

What I do worry about, are all the other ad networks that don't have any transparency at all, or as much incentive to keep info safe.  No idea who they sell info to.


Edited by KDarling - 8/2/13 at 11:41am
post #80 of 85

For one, I'll welcome decent speeds and better network management. Most Starbucks offer what is essentially dial-up. Either the networks aren't being properly managed (e.g. ensuring one user can't gobble up the whole pipe with his Hulu or whatever) or the WAN connections are very slow. I was working in a Starbucks in DC earlier in the week and SpeedTest had me at about 10kb/sec with a 500+ms ping to the nearest server. In other words, barely worth using.

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