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Apple, Inc. gets its fingerprints on advanced touch sensor, appears difficult for Android to copy - Page 2

post #41 of 210
I'm sorry to say, but Samsung can copy anything Apple can do and sell it for far less. I doubt Apple will even be able to protect whatever touch-sensor patents it has in the court system because Samsung will find a way around it. Samsung is a far superior hardware company than Apple is. Samsung can try 100 permutations of any component or product in a short time while Apple plods along at a snail's pace. Samsung has the brightest teams of employees whose specific tasks are to reverse-engineer rival's products. I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung has project teams that number in the hundreds whereas Apple probably has only a dozen employees working on any particular project at one time. Samsung has only one goal. To steal rival's product market share and then totally dominate that particular industry. Apple as a company is too passive to protect itself from that type of thinking.

Nearly every hedge fund manager on the planet sees Apple's iPhone as no better than any cheap, plastic Android smartphone. They all say that the Android smartphone competition has gotten too strong for Apple to handle and Apple has already fallen behind. They say this without any doubts in their minds. What gets me angry is that Apple is sitting on a mountain of reserve cash and should be able to prevent smaller companies from having any advantage at all. If Apple comes out with a touch-sensor smartphone that becomes successful, I'm willing to bet Samsung will have a new touch-sensor smartphone on the market within months if not sooner and thereafter, every Android smartphone in the world will have a touch-sensor.
post #42 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

Google+ auto-sign in already does this across the web and android eco system. Without the need for a gimmicky finger print reader. And I don't think android manufacturers look to Apple anymore. With 80% world market share, why would they?

I agree with you on NFC tho. I use it all the time but it's certainly a long way off (if ever) from anything useful. It's so much better than having to scan a phone's screen which I've seen fail over and over, and it's failed on me too. If only the infrastructure was there.

 

And I don't think android manufacturers look to Apple anymore. With 80% world market share, why would they?

 

 

Coz you can get 80% market share by selling cheaper and inferior gadgets, with a ton of shills paid at retail level to tell you an Android's more superior than an iPhone. What does the regular folk know better than believe them for there word. That's Why .

 

Your kidding me with the Google + auto sign feature right ? So in the Android space how would you buy content of the app store ? No passwords to be keyed in ?

Comeon, I'm talking of being able to bypass that with finger prints (its no gimmick like Samsung Air Touch / Scrolling with Retina / Pausing video when you look away )

 

Edit : And more importantly how do you login to the device, besides drawing those funny signs among a bunch of dots or the Super Successful Face recognition Gimmick :)

post #43 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 Or just use facial recognition like android has. Lower security but sufficient for thieves because they don't know have any pictures of you.

Face unlock, another gimmick in my opinion. Again, seems cool, but the average user is going to forget about it after awhile.

post #44 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Won't the icons need to be bigger because of the glove? Won't it be easier to just take your glove off? For me, that would be a better way - hands down.

 

I've never had a problem. But, it likely depends on the type of glove. The leather ones I wear are small enough that they allow full, normal function. And living in NYC in the winter, there are some days you don't want to take off your gloves to have to answer a call and then fumble around to try and put them back on while on the call and your hands start to freeze solid. It's sometimes my favorite feature on my phone.

post #45 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Eleven View Post

Face unlock, another gimmick in my opinion. Again, seems cool, but the average user is going to forget about it after awhile.

 

I guess it could be like the finger print reader, just another option for security. Don't like it? Don't use it. Face unlock, at least, doesn't add cost to the BoM tho.

post #46 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Or better yet, Siri dialing 911, explaining the situation.

Hello, 911? My user is either dead or has had their finger cut off. XD

post #47 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

 

And I don't think android manufacturers look to Apple anymore. With 80% world market share, why would they?

 

 

Coz you can get 80% market share by selling cheaper and inferior gadgets, with a ton of shills paid at retail level to tell you an Android's more superior than an iPhone. What does the regular folk know better than believe them for there word. That's Why .

 

Your kidding me with the Google + auto sign feature right ? So in the Android space how would you buy content of the app store ? No passwords to be keyed in ?

Comeon, I'm talking of being able to bypass that with finger prints (its no gimmick like Samsung Air Touch / Scrolling with Retina / Pausing video when you look away )

 

Edit : And more importantly how do you login to the device, besides drawing those funny signs among a bunch of dots or the Super Successful Face recognition Gimmick :)

 

Uh, yes. I don't use a password to buy apps. I hate that about the Apple app store. So freakin annoying. If you're logged into your phone that is linked to a google account anything with a password (that accepts G+) is bypassed.

post #48 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

I'm sorry to say, but Samsung can copy anything Apple can do and sell it for far less. I doubt Apple will even be able to protect whatever touch-sensor patents it has in the court system because Samsung will find a way around it. Samsung is a far superior hardware company than Apple is. Samsung can try 100 permutations of any component or product in a short time while Apple plods along at a snail's pace. Samsung has the brightest teams of employees whose specific tasks are to reverse-engineer rival's products. I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung has project teams that number in the hundreds whereas Apple probably has only a dozen employees working on any particular project at one time. Samsung has only one goal. To steal rival's product market share and then totally dominate that particular industry. Apple as a company is too passive to protect itself from that type of thinking.

Nearly every hedge fund manager on the planet sees Apple's iPhone as no better than any cheap, plastic Android smartphone. They all say that the Android smartphone competition has gotten too strong for Apple to handle and Apple has already fallen behind. They say this without any doubts in their minds. What gets me angry is that Apple is sitting on a mountain of reserve cash and should be able to prevent smaller companies from having any advantage at all. If Apple comes out with a touch-sensor smartphone that becomes successful, I'm willing to bet Samsung will have a new touch-sensor smartphone on the market within months if not sooner and thereafter, every Android smartphone in the world will have a touch-sensor.

So by your logic why should Apple (or any company for that matter) even try to compete against the behemoth that is Samsung? Samsung is just too superior, right? I'm glad you're consulting with hedge fund managers over Apple's product styling and tech. I'm sure they lend some real insights.

 

If you knew the first thing about designing and developing products you would know that large teams are generally a hinderance and most problems are solved best with smaller, focused ones. Hence, the reason you get so much garbage (hardware and software) included with a Samsung phone. You're right about one thing: The only successes Samsung has had has been when they've copied Apple. Otherwise, they're just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks.

post #49 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

Uh, yes. I don't use a password to buy apps. I hate that about the Apple app store. So freakin annoying. If you're logged into your phone that is linked to a google account anything with a password (that accepts G+) is bypassed.

 

Well I see , no wonder they call the Android platform so full of vulnerabilities.

So imagine ur 10 year old cousin gets ur phone and starts downloading all apps from the play store it should go through fine huh :) ?

 

I hear with the password kids have been downloading apps on the Apple world, imagine without it :) . Gosh do you keep an eye on your bank statements :P ?

post #50 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

 

Well I see , no wonder they call the Android platform so full of vulnerabilities.

So imagine ur 10 year old cousin gets ur phone and starts downloading all apps from the play store it should go through fine huh :) ?

 

I hear with the password kids have been downloading apps on the Apple world, imagine without it :) . Gosh do you keep an eye on your bank statements :P ?

 

Good thing Android supports multiple user accounts and whenever I give my phone to anyone, the guest account with no password (and no app download rights) is used where my account is password protected. :)

post #51 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

I guess it could be like the finger print reader, just another option for security. Don't like it? Don't use it. Face unlock, at least, doesn't add cost to the BoM tho.

You sound like a Samsung engineer.

 

"Sure, throw that in too. Let's fill up that product marketing checklist with nonsense. I'm sure one of them will catch on eventually. It doesn't matter if our customers are having poor experiences in the meantime. They'll forget about that."

post #52 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Patented
 

 

Look at the last word on that picture. It doesnt matter if the tech is patented or hard to copy, if an Apple tech gain traction, everybody, there mother and there pets are going to clone the crap out of it and there is nothing Apple can do about it.

post #53 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

Uh, yes. I don't use a password to buy apps. I hate that about the Apple app store. So freakin annoying. If you're logged into your phone that is linked to a google account anything with a password (that accepts G+) is bypassed.

Say what? That's not how it is on my womans phone. Whenever she buys an app it prompts her for her password. Unless you have something special checked off, that's not the norm.

post #54 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Eleven View Post

Say what? That's not how it is on my womans phone. Whenever she buys an app it prompts her for her password. Unless you have something special checked off, that's not the norm.

 

Only requirement is a google wallet account and linked G+ account.

post #55 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

Good thing Android supports multiple user accounts and whenever I give my phone to anyone, the guest account with no password (and no app download rights) is used where my account is password protected. :)

 

Oh there's a simpler way to do that on iOS. Use passwords instead :) .

I come from a systems programming world, and the whole idea of having multiple profiles to access your phone can add a lot more stress to the OS enviornment,

in terms of number of options / settings to remember per profile.

 

Sheesh no wonder you need a lot more resource hungry hardware to run Android. Resulting in bloated BIGGER screen gadgets, instead of being thin and sleek like an iPhone. I truly support Google if they wanted to ditch Android and give Chrome a shot now :)

post #56 of 210

Seems gimmicky but if it gives Apple fans something to cheer about, may be worth pursuing for Apple.

 

Since it is the 'least secure' of authentication methods- less secure than the existing ones- it means that it will actually add a vulnerability to phones.  No big deal, it is about the equivalent of facial recognition vulnerability.

 

Unless the 'tape trick' works.  Your fingerprint is all over your phone screen.  If someone can just lift it with scotch tape and that works to unlock the phone, this is a pre-disaster waiting to happen for Apple as they'd likely have to issue a security bulletin telling users its best to disable their nifty new feature.

 

If it does prove useful, I would expect to see it on other phones shortly.  Its not like Apple invented fingerprint scanning technology.  My laptops have had it for at least a decade.  They invented one method for doing it.  Competitors will find an alternate method to do it if they even think it is worthwhile.

post #57 of 210
It'll be copied in no time. I think iOS 7 is a bigger differentiator. I don't understand the premise of a "ultra high resolution display technology". Is the sensor a display technology? I hope this isn't a new Siri, created just to more easily market the device, with no real functional improvements.
post #58 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

Seems gimmicky but if it gives Apple fans something to cheer about, may be worth pursuing for Apple.

 

Since it is the 'least secure' of authentication methods- less secure than the existing ones- it means that it will actually add a vulnerability to phones.  No big deal, it is about the equivalent of facial recognition vulnerability.

 

Unless the 'tape trick' works.  Your fingerprint is all over your phone screen.  If someone can just lift it with scotch tape and that works to unlock the phone, this is a pre-disaster waiting to happen for Apple as they'd likely have to issue a security bulletin telling users its best to disable their nifty new feature.

 

If it does prove useful, I would expect to see it on other phones shortly.  Its not like Apple invented fingerprint scanning technology.  My laptops have had it for at least a decade.  They invented one method for doing it.  Competitors will find an alternate method to do it if they even think it is worthwhile.

 

Frood, you clearly don't follow Apple's technology huh ?


Authentech's tech for finger print access only works if "LIVE Tissues" get in contact with it.

 

That means you cant use scotch tape's or even a cut off finger to bypass the system.

 

Read up more on it.

post #59 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

 

Oh there's a simpler way to do that on iOS. Use passwords instead :) .

I come from a systems programming world, and the whole idea of having multiple profiles to access your phone can add a lot more stress to the OS enviornment,

in terms of number of options / settings to remember per profile.

 

Sheesh no wonder you need a lot more resource hungry hardware to run Android. Resulting in bloated BIGGER screen gadgets, instead of being thin and sleek like an iPhone. I truly support Google if they wanted to ditch Android and give Chrome a shot now :)

 

If you worry about people stealing from you by purchasing apps on your phone then don't uncheck the box and require a password. I don't have kids and don't give my phone to other people that would steam from me so I don't worry about it.

 

post #60 of 210
I also don't understand the article's reference to "advanced battery technology" in the iPhone 5. iPhone 5's battery is pretty lousy. It gets 3-4 hours playing games, and only about 6.5 hours with regular usage. And that's on less than 50% brightness.
post #61 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

If you worry about people stealing from you by purchasing apps on your phone then don't uncheck the box and require a password. I don't have kids and don't give my phone to other people that would steam from me so I don't worry about it.

 

Yes now that's what I call a User friendly interface, put a 100 options and throw checkboxe's next to each one of them. Bravo you go on :) 

post #62 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

Yes now that's what I call a User friendly interface, put a 100 options and throw checkboxe's next to each one of them. Bravo you go on :) 

 

The top box 'notifications' you see there is the top and the build is the bottom. What world do you live in where 6 options and 2 'about' details is not user friendly?


Edit: Apple has almost all of these options too but you have to go digging to get them. The notifications one would show up in settings -> notifications. The auto update is in setting -> app store. The content setting is in settings -> general -> restrictions. All for the app store. Please explain to me how that is remotely user friendly?


Edited by NexusPhan - 8/7/13 at 7:00am
post #63 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Those will still be there.  You still need to sign in with your iTunes account and password for when you use iTunes on your Mac, PC, iPad, and iPod Touch. You still need Two-factor and 3 questions to help insure security.

The fingerprint will be only one additional layer of security. The rest need to be in place.  Otherwise, crooks will simply cut off your fingers or hand to get by the fingerprint sensor.
Also, fingerprints are not actually that unique. It's not like a magical identifier that only one person has.
post #64 of 210
As demonstrated on mythbusters, couldn't someone just lift your fingerprint from the touchscreen and create a mold, place it over their finger and have access??
post #65 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Other than that nice feature article although a bit verbose and digressive.

If it isn't loaded with rampant 'fanboyism', it wasn't written by Dilger.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #66 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

The top box 'notifications' you see there is the top and the build is the bottom. What world do you live in where 6 options and 2 'about' details is not user friendly ?

 

I understand what Google's philosophy here is, they just don't have what it takes to make calls for the users. So give the user all the options.

It takes more of a visionary to be able to do that , like Apple. Simplicity in design !

Design is not just about the way something looks, but how something works at so many different levels.

 

You know how Apple solves the problem ? Require a password when not put in a particular interval. So if you put your password, it will let you go on without using passwords for a time span.

 

And get back to requiring passwords once you go past that time span. Its Simplicity. iOS is evolving to a point where users don't have to be bothered about a lot of stuff, and just get on with things while Android's going the Windows way .. We all know were that got Windows :)

post #67 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

But the most common way to wake an iOS device is via the home button. And by doing it this way that can be the initiating confirmation. So the button needs to be pressed first (unless device is awake already, which is the exception).
Maybe if we have a phone with a fingerprint sensor they will finally let us turn off the "swipe to open" nonsense. Then merely touching the home button (in the process of waking it up) will take you right to the home screen. Alternatively, the swiping could be disabled depending on who it is touching the button, so that when the owner hits the home button it goes to the home screen, but anyone else will get either a "swipe to open" prompt or an "enter password" prompt.
post #68 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

Yes now that's what I call a User friendly interface, put a 100 options and throw checkboxe's next to each one of them. Bravo you go on 1smile.gif 
How is that different to iOS's settings app? One, two, three. To me, it looks like both OSes go for the same approach?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

The fingerprint will be only one additional layer of security. The rest need to be in place.  Otherwise, crooks will simply cut off your fingers or hand to get by the fingerprint sensor.
If they've got physical access to you and are prepared to cut off your hand, I'm fairly sure they could force you to reveal your password.
post #69 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Govero View Post

As demonstrated on mythbusters, couldn't someone just lift your fingerprint from the touchscreen and create a mold, place it over their finger and have access??
One of thhe 'revolutionary' aspects of the technology they just bought is that its supposed to be able to tell the difference between live and dead fingers.
post #70 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLite View Post


How is that different to iOS's settings app? One, two, three. To me, it looks like both OSes go for the same approach?
If they've got physical access to you and are prepared to cut off your hand, I'm fairly sure they could force you to reveal your password.

 Post 66 for you.

post #71 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

The top box 'notifications' you see there is the top and the build is the bottom. What world do you live in where 6 options and 2 'about' details is not user friendly?


Edit: Apple has almost all of these options too but you have to go digging to get them. The notifications one would show up in settings -> notifications. The auto update is in setting -> app store. The content setting is in restrictions. All for the app store. Please explain to me how that is remotely user friendly?

I'm no Android hater, but putting "content restrictions" in a "restrictions" sub-menu makes reasonable sense to me.
post #72 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

I guess it could be like the finger print reader, just another option for security. Don't like it? Don't use it. Face unlock, at least, doesn't add cost to the BoM tho.

 

Face Unlock was the worst gimmick ever. It's slow, not reliable, and only works under good lighting conditions. It even failed during the announcement keynote for ICS.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Govero View Post

As demonstrated on mythbusters, couldn't someone just lift your fingerprint from the touchscreen and create a mold, place it over their finger and have access??

 

I'm sure Mythbusters has access to the same type of sensor Apple is using. /S

 

 

I also find it interesting nobody wants to bring up the Atrix. The fanboys seem to love to throw this POS around whenever an article about Apple using a fingerprint sensor appears (sort of like bringing up that POS LG Prada or Samsung F700 as proof there were touchscreen phones before the iPhone).

 

They keep forgetting the Atrix was famous for its failing sensors or the fact Motorola stopped putting them in all subsequent phone models. Being first to market with an idea is meaningless if it doesn't work.

post #73 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

 

I understand what Google's philosophy here is, they just don't have what it takes to make calls for the users. So give the user all the options.

It takes more of a visionary to be able to do that , like Apple. Simplicity in design !

Design is not just about the way something looks, but how something works at so many different levels.

 

You know how Apple solves the problem ? Require a password when not put in a particular interval. So if you put your password, it will let you go on without using passwords for a time span.

 

And get back to requiring passwords once you go past that time span. Its Simplicity. iOS is evolving to a point where users don't have to be bothered about a lot of stuff, and just get on with things while Android's going the Windows way .. We all know were that got Windows :)

 You missed my edit.

 

Edit: Apple has almost all of these options too but you have to go digging to get them. The notifications one would show up in settings -> notifications. The auto update is in setting -> app store. The content setting is in settings -> general -> restrictions. All for the app store. Please explain to me how that is remotely user friendly?

post #74 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Yeah, I always though the retina scan would have been the better way to go … the iPhone's camera doesn't have this same degradation issue. Plus you could have multiple reference scans, 'just awake', 'normal', 'bloodshot (hung over)', 'just had a joint' and so on. 1biggrin.gif

HA!
Quote:
Seriously though, you have to think Apple have something up their sleeve this guy is unaware of don't you?

I would like to think so, but after reading his article, and the other fingerprint capture method I don't see how they can make it work:

There are 2 kinds of fingerprint capture methods: touchless and touch-based fingerprint capture. I pioneered the first category. This capture technique requires a camera with very sophisticated optical lenses and a complex lighting system. The huge advantage of the touchless fingerprint devices compared to the touch-based ones is that, since the finger does not need to touch any rigid surfaces, the skin does not deform and the image captures very rich details that can make the recognition more accurate. Manufacturing costs are the main issue with this kind of devices and they cannot be miniaturized, so touchless fingerprint devices are not suitable for cellphones.

CMOS fingerprint device, you will find a number representing the lifetime of a device. That number is expressed in number of touches (before it completely dies). That number is provided in ideal conditions of usage and in a normal operating environment of temperature and humidity. But remember where you normally use your iPhone. You keep it in your “dirty" pockets, you leave it on different surfaces, and in humid and hot or cold and dry environments. Sometimes water drops on it or you forget it in your car under the sun. All these factors stress the working conditions of the sensor surface and contribute to speeding up its decay process. Unfortunately there is no existing solution to this.

For you, this means that a fingerprint sensor on your phone will break after a while. How long after you buy it? Well, that will depend on where you live, how you use it, where you use it, how careful you are with it, and how clean your hands are.

That suggests to me that the fingerprint sensor should be removable/replaceable -- as contained in the back or side of a [relatively] inexpensive case, rather than built into the device, itself.
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post #75 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

"Pantech Vega LTE-A IM-A880S boasts of a fingerprint reader and touch sensor at the back of the device" Seems they have it backwards … LOL

More fingers touch the back of the device than the front.
post #76 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewofArabia View Post


I'm no Android hater, but putting "content restrictions" in a "restrictions" sub-menu makes reasonable sense to me.

 

My point was you have 3+ different places to go to access settings for one app. Its not user friendly at all.

post #77 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

It does sound like they have come up with something new. But I wonder how long it takes to do a reading? Will you have to hold your finger on the home button for a while or just "click" it normal speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post

One way to improve signal to noise is to sit staring at the subject for a while, the whole time integrating the signal. Apple's sensor is described as being 'super-sensitive', implying a very short integration time and therefore rapid response. It's conceivable that if the technology is truly advanced, that the fingerprint might be acquired as the finger nears or just touches the surface, even before the key is depressed (or preferably before the key is depressed). Might seem instantaneous and not subject to surface contamination. Might Apple have the issue sorted?

It has to be exactly as simple as this in practice: 1) Pick up your phone, 2) Thumb the Home Button., 3) Screen awakes with unlocking sound, to the Home Screen.

Done. If there is anything more to it than that, Apple won't implement it, because it would suck.
post #78 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 You missed my edit.

 

Edit: Apple has almost all of these options too but you have to go digging to get them. The notifications one would show up in settings -> notifications. The auto update is in setting -> app store. The content setting is in settings -> general -> restrictions. All for the app store. Please explain to me how that is remotely user friendly?

 

You answered that yourself. Its hidden away only to those that want to go for it !  Not for those that aren't bothered about seeing it .

Its an art to be able to masquerade complexity. Something Google needs to figure out how to do.

post #79 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

 

You answered that yourself. Its hidden away only to those that want to go for it !  Not for those that aren't bothered about seeing it .

Its an art to be able to masquerade complexity. Something Google needs to figure out how to do.

 

If its "hidden away only to those that want to go for it" please explain your first comment attempting to be an apple fanboi and bash android "now that's what I call a User friendly interface, put a 100 options and throw checkboxe's next to each one of them"

post #80 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

If its "hidden away only to those that want to go for it" please explain your first comment attempting to be an apple fanboi and bash android "now that's what I call a User friendly interface, put a 100 options and throw checkboxe's next to each one of them"

 

You sound like a blind fool.

 

What that means is provide functionality when the user wants to go looking for it, and hide it when he doesn't have to see it !

 

Let me give you a simpler way to put it. Would you prefer a car sales man open up the hood of the car first, before even talking about what the car can do ?


yeah if your a mechanic sure !

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