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Apple, Inc. gets its fingerprints on advanced touch sensor, appears difficult for Android to copy - Page 3

post #81 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

What Apple really needs to do is catch up with the big android phones that support multi touch while using gloves.

 

Huh?  There are plenty of inexpensive gloves you can get nowadays which work with iPhones.

 
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post #82 of 210
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Originally Posted by auxio View Post

 

Huh?  There are plenty of inexpensive gloves you can get nowadays which work with iPhones.

 

I'd rather not have to buy specific and cheap gloves to use my phone. I guess you iPhone users can stick to those.

post #83 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

I'd rather not have to buy specific and cheap gloves to use my phone. I guess you iPhone users can stick to those.

 

Seriously?  I've seen dozens of different styles at different retailers.  As for using leather gloves with a phone, I guess that's why Android users need massive phones (and possibly some screen lube).

 
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post #84 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I don't see this as being the next big thing of smart phones, don't get me wrong it was a really nice article and it might be nice to have but it is defiantly not a feature that many are seeking. Every Thinkpad I have ever bought has come with one and I am yet to use it, sure, yes having it on the screen is probably more inviting but I will still personally use a password. The smarter these phones get the dumber we become, I have no doubt that people will start forgetting their passwords if they start storing them in the bio-keychain program, they will probably change them less frequently making it easier for hackers. One of the reasons why I don't use Apples Keychain program in OSX, I like memorizing things, it makes me sharper and I it forces me to remember to change my password. This is a neat feature no doubt, I just don't think it will be the game changer that many of you perceive it as. I would probably be more impressed with an optical scanner, maybe that's the next step.

I agree to some extent.

However, it's presence and use could be required by some businesses and enterprises.

And, a reliable, easy-to-use fp identification on a phone or tablet provides incidental, ad hoc advantages for certain activities -- shopping/buying, entry to a secure area or automobile, etc.

I have often stated that I never leave the house without my iPhone, my wallet, and my keys... That's 2 things too many!
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post #85 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

And living in NYC in the winter, there are some days you don't want to take off your gloves to have to answer a call and then fumble around to try and put them back on while on the call and your hands start to freeze solid. It's sometimes my favorite feature on my phone.

Ah, New York. Love the city, the restaurants. All good there. Yep, freaking cold it can get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

If you're logged into your phone that is linked to a google account anything with a password (that accepts G+) is bypassed.

So that's where they are getting their G+ users from ¡
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

Good thing Android supports multiple user accounts and whenever I give my phone to anyone, the guest account with no password (and no app download rights) is used where my account is password protected. 1smile.gif

That's certainly a stupid way of trying to protect your phone. A better way is in iOS; putting selective restrictions on it. So kids on a guest account can read/delete your email et cetera?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post



That is one fugly interface!
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post #86 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

 

Seriously?  I've seen dozens of different styles at different retailers.  As for using leather gloves with a phone, I guess that's why Android users need massive phones (and possibly some screen lube).


Walk into a NYC high rise office with those cheap lookin gloves. See how long you last.

You'd think the company that built its empire around being the "in" and trendy device would be the first to adopt these touchscreens.

post #87 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

That's quite the blind fanboi comment there. Why put settings in the settings menu when you can bury them so our dumba$$ iOS users don't go looking for them. This is why Apple has fallen behind. This is why Apple will have a harder time catching up then it should. It's this blind following kool-aid drinking that Apple sees no reason to innovate anymore. I'm done for the day. I've had enough.

 

I need to cleans my eyes with water every time I read your epitome of Stupidity ! I got better things do with my time as well.

 

So tell me really how is iOS falling behind with everything they done in iOS 7. Oh holy cow did you know Google's Fixing there Fragmentation problem.. LOL Shame on you :)

post #88 of 210

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post
Yep, freaking cold it can get.

No kidding.

 

So that's where they are getting their G+ users from

Haha. So true. It's really the only use I've found for it.

 

That's certainly a stupid way of trying to protect your phone. A better way is in iOS; putting selective restrictions on it. So kids on a guest account can read/delete your email et cetera?

Or how about both ways?

 

That is one fugly interface!

 

No kidding? http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2013/06/18/ios-7-settings.PNG

post #89 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

 

I need to cleans my eyes with water every time I read your epitome of Stupidity ! I got better things do with my time as well.

 

So tell me really how is iOS falling behind with everything they done in iOS 7. Oh holy cow did you know Google's Fixing there Fragmentation problem.. LOL Shame on you :)

 

Everything iOS 7 has done has had a direct influence from Android. That's how.

post #90 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

"Pantech Vega LTE-A IM-A880S boasts of a fingerprint reader and touch sensor at the back of the device" Seems they have it backwards … LOL

 

Putting the sensor on the back of a device is not uncommon.  It allows the user to hold the device between lower fingers and thumb, while stroking the sensor with their index finger.

 

After using it for authenticating, some phones in the past then allowed using it for scrolling.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A Capacitative touchscreen senses the electrons emitted by your living tissue. When you touch the screen, you are charging up tiny capacitors with your finger's electrons; as you move your finger away they discharge, providing an electronic trail of where you've touched. 

 

That's totally backwards.

 

It does not "sense the electrons emitted by your living tissue", nor do you charge a tiny capacitor on the screen with your electrons, nor is a discharge trail followed.

 

Instead, YOU are the capacitor.  The charge is emitted from the touchscreen, and it senses how much is stolen at each touch grid intersection by something capacitive that's nearby.  That's why a conductive stylus or even a sausage will work as well.

 

With iOS (and other) devices, there's also a requirement to have a fairly large conductive target, because the touch processor throws away small touch patches as unwanted noise.  That's why a sharply pointed stylus is not recognized, or is augmented by a larger transparent piece so it can be.

 

Quote:
Resistive touchscreen measures physical pressure. As you press against it with a finger or a stylus, you're changing resistance in the screen by pushing it inward. This is generally much less sensitive, so it requires a more deliberate push. Some, like supermarket checkout screens (or 2007-era phones), force you to pick up the stylus to press in on the screen firmly to make a selection.

 

No, they don't measure pressure or a resistance change from it.

 

Common resistive screens sense a touch because a press causes a flexible sheet to contact another sheet behind it.  The voltage from the contact point to the edges is measured to calculate the coordinates.

 

The pressure needed to make the contact depends on the quality of the construction.  I've used some resistive touchscreens that required such a light stroke that they felt almost capacitive like... but of course were also able to sense a fine point stylus.  

 

In fact, back in 2009 a company demonstrated a resistive (probably matrix) touchscreen that not only allowed unlimited multi-touch points, it could even sense the individual bristles of a paintbrush.  Imagine the possibilities.

post #91 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post


Walk into a NYC high rise office with those cheap lookin gloves. See how long you last.

 

And this is exactly why Silicon Valley has attracted more bright minds than NYC over the years.  Too much stock in veneer and not enough in substance.

 
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post #92 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

No kidding.

Haha. So true. It's really the only use I've found for it.

Or how about both ways?
Quote:
That is one fugly interface!

No kidding? 


Beta 5 looks cooler

post #93 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Based on the article the author says there will be a fingerprint sensor in the next iPhone but it will be the least secure of the available sensing methods and not appropriate for authenticating payments

No you're thinking of Android Face Unlock.
post #94 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

 

Everything iOS 7 has done has had a direct influence from Android. That's how.

 

I would put it as taking forward by miles rough versions of "ideas" in android and every other Eco system out there.

post #95 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Also, fingerprints are not actually that unique. It's not like a magical identifier that only one person has.

No two have been found alike ever. There's a plausible doubt concern used by defense attorneys to question evidence, but it's not a reality, and certainly doesn't affect verifying ones' own prints.

This is verification, not identification against a watch list of felons.
post #96 of 210

On a side note, the company Pantech has a fingerprint sensor on the back of their Vega LTE-A smartphone.

 

gsmarena_002.jpg

post #97 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Govero View Post

As demonstrated on mythbusters, couldn't someone just lift your fingerprint from the touchscreen and create a mold, place it over their finger and have access??

No, the sensor uses RF to read 3D pits and valleys into the living layers while sensing the electrons emitted by living tissue.

It's not taking a flat photocopy.
post #98 of 210
The Home button is too small to be a finger print reader. I remember several years ago Apple was experimenting with putting "camera" technology inside the screen. What is able to withstand salt, oil, etc? The screen. What best for reading the fingerprint of a large finger? The screen.

It's the screen.
post #99 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKings33 View Post

On a side note, the company Pantech has a fingerprint sensor on the back of their Vega LTE-A smartphone.

gsmarena_002.jpg

Pantech? Are you being serious?
post #100 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKings33 View Post

On a side note, the company Pantech has a fingerprint sensor on the back of their Vega LTE-A smartphone.

 

gsmarena_002.jpg

Having a feature, and getting it to work properly are two different things.

 

That said, I am noticing a consistent, and dismaying pattern in the editorials here. They start off with an interesting premise, then proceed to veer off course by recapping Apple's long and illustrious history of successes (which I, being fairly new to the whole Apple scene, do find an informative read), that is completely irrelevant to the main idea posited.

 

Then, as if sensing that he has rambled on long enough, simply ends off abruptly, leaving me none the wiser at the end of the article. It doesn't explain why a fingerprint sensor done by Apple would be hard for Android manufacturers to copy (my guess is the lack of physical buttons on Android handsets, plus the need for fairly high-end and expensive technology which would automatically preclude all lower-end android phones, plus the ability to integrate it with their own services and software, something the competition has little control over). 

 

Nor does it explain the benefits such tech would bring to the consumer, or where Apple may go with it. For instance, given their control over the entire ecosystem, I can see Apple eventually rolling fingerprint tech out to all their Apple devices, from phones to tablets to laptops. It would provide a consistent experience, and easy setup via icloud. 


Edited by abazigal - 8/7/13 at 7:57am
post #101 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

The Home button is too small to be a finger print reader. 

The fingerprint sensor on the Pantech in the photo above looks to be similar in size to the home button.

 

I'm no expert in the technology, so I couldn't say whether it can or cannot be done, this is merely speculation.

post #102 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKings33 View Post

On a side note, the company Pantech has a fingerprint sensor on the back of their Vega LTE-A smartphone.

 

 

 

Dint you know that touch screens existed even before the iPhone that came in 2007 ?

I wonder why why all the touch oriented revolution started all over again :)

post #103 of 210
Finger Me!
post #104 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

 

And this is exactly why Silicon Valley has attracted more bright minds than NYC over the years.  Too much stock in veneer and not enough in substance.

 

On a side note, I do love NYC, but East Village and Brooklyn are more to my taste (at least, last time I was there).  Experiencing creativity and passion in music/art/culinary art/technology is what excites me (no matter what it's dressed up in).

 
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post #105 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

Google+ auto-sign in already does this across the web and android eco system. Without the need for a gimmicky finger print reader. And I don't think android manufacturers look to Apple anymore. With 80% world market share, why would they?

Because Androiders can't help themselves as they need inspiration to do things correctly rather than slap features onto a phone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

Uh, yes. I don't use a password to buy apps. I hate that about the Apple app store. So freakin annoying. If you're logged into your phone that is linked to a google account anything with a password (that accepts G+) is bypassed.

As you later posted, it's a setting you can turn off. It's on primarily for parents who use idevices as baby sitters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

That's quite the blind fanboi comment there. Why put settings in the settings menu when you can bury them so our dumba$$ iOS users don't go looking for them. This is why Apple has fallen behind. This is why Apple will have a harder time catching up then it should. It's this blind following kool-aid drinking that Apple sees no reason to innovate anymore. I'm done for the day. I've had enough.

It's easier to scan small well defined lists than a list of dozens of options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post


Walk into a NYC high rise office with those cheap lookin gloves. See how long you last.
You'd think the company that built its empire around being the "in" and trendy device would be the first to adopt these touchscreens.

Vanity? Who the eff looks at people's gloves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Putting the sensor on the back of a device is not uncommon.  It allows the user to hold the device between lower fingers and thumb, while stroking the sensor with their index finger.

WTF are you doing that you need to stroke your phone that much?
post #106 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post


Pantech? Are you being serious?

Serious about what?

 

I found it interesting that so close to the release of the long rumored iPhone fingerprint sensor, another company, Pantech implements one on their latest flagship device.

post #107 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewofArabia View Post

I also don't understand the article's reference to "advanced battery technology" in the iPhone 5. iPhone 5's battery is pretty lousy. It gets 3-4 hours playing games, and only about 6.5 hours with regular usage. And that's on less than 50% brightness.

The article might have been stretching it a bit when looking for really advanced hardware improvements for iPhone 5 but it does have really good battery life considering it has LTE. No Android phone (with a normal-sized battery) can match iPhone's runtime AKAIK.

post #108 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by abazigal View Post

Having a feature, and getting it to work properly are two different things.

It doesn't explain why a fingerprint sensor done by Apple would be hard for Android manufacturers to copy.

It is difficult tech to pull off and Apple now owns the primary source.
post #109 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

 

Apple won't use NFC.  It already has Passbook.  Passbook already is used more often then the NFC chips on Android.

Source?

 

I would use NFC- because several retailers have it.  I haven't used Passbook once because, well, it sucks.

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post #110 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewofArabia View Post

It'll be copied in no time. I think iOS 7 is a bigger differentiator. I don't understand the premise of a "ultra high resolution display technology". Is the sensor a display technology? I hope this isn't a new Siri, created just to more easily market the device, with no real functional improvements.

Siri is not functional improvements? Maybe you need to see a Siri commercial to remind of what function it offers.

There is a lot of common sense involved here: Telling Siri to Turn on Bluetooth or Open Facebook = Pointless. Tell Siri to schedule a meeting with X at 0:00 PM at the Conference Center, without ever taking it out of your pocket = More than a little useful.

Or read and respond to SMS or iMessage complete Eyes Free while on the road...amazing.
post #111 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Source?

 

I would use NFC- because several retailers have it.  I haven't used Passbook once because, well, it sucks.

 

Did you know Google themselves are ditching NFC chips in there handsets ? You dont need NFC coz you already have Bluetooth, BLE as replacement tech.

And more importantly the wallet feature can be done with existing wireless technologies.

post #112 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKings33 View Post

The fingerprint sensor on the Pantech in the photo above looks to be similar in size to the home button.

 

There are two types of sensor layouts:

 

  • A large full finger-sized array of sensors that can read an entire fingertip at once.
  • A smaller and cheaper horizontal line of sensors that you have to swipe your finger over.

 

It all depends on how much you want to spend on the sensor, and how much room you have to allot for it.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

WTF are you doing that you need to stroke your phone that much?

 

See above.  If it's a sweep capture type, you have to stroke your finger across it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

No, the sensor uses RF to read 3D pits and valleys into the living layers while sensing the electrons emitted by living tissue.

 

Again, no.  It does not sense "electrons emitted by living tissue".  

 

The article also seems confused about the methods Authentec uses.  It says that their "sensors are based on both capacitive and radio frequency (RF) technology", but writes as if they're being used at the same time. 

 

While they do make both types of sensors (DC capacitive or RF/AC capacitive), they're not combined into one package AFAIK (nor would it make sense to do so).  

 

The first type depends on the air gap between ridges to provide capacitance differences, and so is not as accurate if a finger is pressed tight against the sensor.  The RF type reads into the ridges themselves.

post #113 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Siri is not functional improvements? Maybe you need to see a Siri commercial to remind of what function it offers.

There is a lot of common sense involved here: Telling Siri to Turn on Bluetooth or Open Facebook = Pointless. Tell Siri to schedule a meeting with X at 0:00 PM at the Conference Center, without ever taking it out of your pocket = More than a little useful.

Or read and respond to SMS or iMessage complete Eyes Free while on the road...amazing.

I meant upon its initial release. I use Siri sometimes... It still seems to be a separate thing from the OS. I don't know what their vision for Siri is, but it doesn't make sense on a watch where you'd use it in public, and it doesn't make all that much difference on a phone. It does make sense in the living room perhaps, and almost certainly in the car.
post #114 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by abazigal View Post

Having a feature, and getting it to work properly are two different things.

That said, I am noticing a consistent, and dismaying pattern in the editorials here. They start off with an interesting premise, then proceed to veer off course by recapping Apple's long and illustrious history of successes (which I, being fairly new to the whole Apple scene, do find an informative read), that is completely irrelevant to the main idea posited.

Then, as if sensing that he has rambled on long enough, simply ends off abruptly, leaving me none the wiser at the end of the article. It doesn't explain why a fingerprint sensor done by Apple would be hard for Android manufacturers to copy (my guess is the lack of physical buttons on Android handsets, plus the need for fairly high-end and expensive technology which would automatically preclude all lower-end android phones, plus the ability to integrate it with their own services and software, something the competition has little control over). 

Nor does it explain the benefits such tech would bring to the consumer, or where Apple may go with it. For instance, given their control over the entire ecosystem, I can see Apple eventually rolling fingerprint tech out to all their Apple devices, from phones to tablets to laptops. It would provide a consistent experience, and easy setup via icloud. 

Great post, said everything I was too lazy to say. I do like his features though.
post #115 of 210
Awesome Article! I thought it was a research paper for the CIA!
I'll bet many of Apple's competitors will read this for information.
post #116 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrections View Post

No you're thinking of Android Face Unlock.

Funny guy.lol.gif
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post #117 of 210
I seem to recall seeing something a while back about an Apple patent that had them placing the sensor underneath the screen. If this sensor can read through the glass screen, then the natural place to locate it would be where the user normally swipes the screen to unlock. This would mean no addtional gestures for the user to learn.
post #118 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Source?

I would use NFC- because several retailers have it.  I haven't used Passbook once because, well, it sucks.

So you haven't used it once and you say it sucks?

NFC is a fad. Companies need to buy special equipment to offer it. Passbook uses the scanners they have already. All they need to do is develop for it.
post #119 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Source?

 

I would use NFC- because several retailers have it.  I haven't used Passbook once because, well, it sucks.

 

Ever actually tried? Several US banks issued NFC credit cards that they replaced with standard cards because the tech wasn't working. I got one, tried to use it in SF where Google installed a lot of Wallet readers, never could get it to work. Had to swipe it. Vendors I asked said nobody ever used it because it didn't work. 

 

Google Wallet was a massive fiasco. 

 

You can dismiss Passbook, but it's actually being used and it's supported by a lot of major companies. And its getting increasing more sophisticated using stuff that works, rather than blowing out a lot of expensive infrastructure that doesn't. 

post #120 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

 

 

Since Apple bought the third party along with all of its intellectual properties and has patents on the new technology and eliminated its previous customers, it will be very very difficult for clones to be made for its best of class fingerprint technology.

 

 

Not sure how you figure. Apple still has to have a third party manufacturer the device. Presumably it will be done in China where technology espionage is rampant. In terms of security, Google probably has it right building the new Nexus Phone in the US. According to the reviews, the phone isn't that great, but building it here in the US is good from a lot of perspectives including the ability to keep the phone under tighter wraps. 

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