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Apple wins ITC ban on Samsung products [updated with ITC's final determination]

post #1 of 111
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Apple was dealt a significant win in its ongoing patent duel with Samsung on Friday when the U.S. International Trade Commission handed down a ruling that will likely see the ban of infringing products made by the South Korean company.

ITC


The ITC's final determination found Samsung to have infringed on two Apple patents, one for a touchscreen control method and another for headphone I/O tech, which means an import ban on offending products has been ordered, reports FOSS Patents' Florian Mueller.

Before the ban can take effect, it must undergo a 60-day Presidential review period that could see a reversal of the ITC order. Such was the case with a recent Samsung complaint against Apple, which saw the ITC's ban of older devices like the iPhone 4 reversed by a veto from the U.S. Trade Representative.

Mueller points out that the effect of Friday's import ban is depends largely on the workarounds Samsung applies to infringing products. These product adjustments can, at times, come in the form of tweaked capabilities, or even the outright removal of features. It remains to be seen what Samsung will choose to do with the devices, but the ITC order will likely have some sort of impact on the company's product line moving forward.

Friday's ruling is the result of an investigation into Administrative Law Judge Thomas Pender's initial determination from October 2012, which found Samsung to have infringed on Apple's patents. Both parties were unsatisfied with the jurist's decision and brought the issue to the Commission hoping for further clarification.

The trade body agreed to investigate, subsequently remanding two patents-in-suit back to Judge Pender. The Commission's final determination is based on the remand initial determination, as well as a full review of the case and parties' arguments.

Update: Samsung later had this to say about Friday's decision (via The Verge):

We are disappointed that the ITC has issued an exclusion order based on two of Apple?s patents. However, Apple has been stopped from trying to use its overbroad design patents to achieve a monopoly on rectangles and rounded corners. The proper focus for the smartphone industry is not a global war in the courts, but fair competition in the marketplace. Samsung will continue to launch many innovative products and we have already taken measures to ensure that all of our products will continue to be available in the United States.



Apple's statement reads more like boilerplate:

With today's decision, the ITC has joined courts around the world in Japan, Korea, Germany, Netherlands and California by standing up for innovation and rejecting Samsung's blatant copying of Apple's products. Protecting real innovation is what the patent system should be about.



post #2 of 111
Woohoo!
post #3 of 111
Now the fandroids will call for Obama to veto and totally not see how that is wrong.
post #4 of 111
Presuming Obama will quash this as well...... Oh hang on there!
post #5 of 111
Which products are being banned?
post #6 of 111

Complete bull. If Obama doesn't VETO this then he's nothing but a protectionist.

 

opps, /S for those who don't get it.

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post #7 of 111

So why does it impact older Samsung products only as many sources are reporting now?

Doesn't S4 use multi-touch?

post #8 of 111
If Sammy had a work around, why'd they infringe in the first place. Lazy copycats.
post #9 of 111

Obama has publicly expressed his distaste for all these patent lawsuits and with the recent veto on the Apple import ban it will certainly be interesting to see what happens.

post #10 of 111

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), default quality

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

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post #11 of 111
A good win indeed. What devices are banned?
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post #12 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Obama has publicly expressed his distaste for all these patent lawsuits and with the recent veto on the Apple import ban it will certainly be interesting to see what happens.

I think he was targeting the FRAND ones, which these are not. Standard Essential Patents are a separate issue from the sort in this court case.

post #13 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete borota View Post

Presuming Obama will quash this as well...... Oh hang on there!

I doubt it these are not FRAND.
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post #14 of 111

First the ITC bans Apple stuff, then the ITC bans Samsung stuff.  Sounds like there's some confusion going on in those offices.

That being said, I'm very happy with this verdict.  Where Scamscum tried banning Apple based on FRAND, and SEP's nonsense, at least this is bonafide non-SEP, serious patents.  Good for Apple.

post #15 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Obama has publicly expressed his distaste for all these patent lawsuits and with the recent veto on the Apple import ban it will certainly be interesting to see what happens.

 

Tim Cook also said he hates litigation -- do as I say, not as I do.

 

Obama just signed into law the Patent Law Treaties Implementation Act of 2012, introduced just as Apple vs Samsung trial started in August -- the law, not surprisingly, expands the scope of design patents (easier to patent and litigate) and strongly favors Apple.  Then came the ITC import ban veto.

 

Obama is nothing more than a corporatist & a fan of economic protectionism and bailout; couldn't care about the patent lawsuit so long as it protects America's too-big-to-fail.  I have  no problem with this at all; after all, I guess it's his job to protect American economic interests, but, please, let's not pretend that this is all about patent lawsuits. 


Edited by tooltalk - 8/9/13 at 4:14pm
post #16 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

A good win indeed. What devices are banned?

Mostly, if not all, old and discontinued products.

 

However, Samsung must watch his shit not to mess up its current / upcoming stupid products not to copy Apple's.

 

Plus, they are going to lose their credit as retailers will be worried if / how long they can continue selling their products.

 

In other words, they are well-deserved (pardon me as english is not my 1st language) fucked!

....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

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....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

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post #17 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason98 View Post

So why does it impact older Samsung products only as many sources are reporting now?
Doesn't S4 use multi-touch?

Yes, but the S4 wasn't out when this case was started, so it's not included. Furthermore, Samsung claims that they have a workaround so Apple can't automatically add the S4 to the list of infringing devices.

Apple will have to file a separate case against the S4 (or maybe they've already done so), prove that the S4 infringes, and then get it banned. The process is slow enough that devices are already obsolete before they get banned.

In theory, the court system could award damages that would compensate Apple and would be high enough to stop future infringement, but that's slow, too, and the damages awarded were only a small fraction of Samsung's profits from infringing, so there's really not much incentive to stop the infringement.
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post #18 of 111

Good news there... Will have to wait and figure out what models are in question here for the ban.

Pointless if some really old model's are being banned.

 

The method of multi-touch and the headphone detection when plugged, these sounds like very fundamental to the phone.

I am guessing every device model till date would be infringing those.

post #19 of 111
U.S. patent law is such nonsense - this rubbish could go on for the next century and achieve absolutely nothing (except spending a colossal amount on lawyers and not on innovation).
post #20 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfc1138 View Post

I think he was targeting the FRAND ones, which these are not. Standard Essential Patents are a separate issue from the sort in this court case.

Absolutely!

The Samsung patents are not "standard-essential".

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323977304579002793571156348.html

post #21 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

Good news there... Will have to wait and figure out what models are in question here for the ban.
Pointless if some really old model's are being banned.

The method of multi-touch and the headphone detection when plugged, these sounds like very fundamental to the phone.
I am guessing every device model till date would be infringing those.

I read that they can fast track another case alleging the same patent abuse against new devices if this went through. That was said to be why they continued with this case even though the devices are basically out of the market anyway.
post #22 of 111
Wooh! Go Apple!! You stink Samsung!! That's what you get for all your years of copying!
post #23 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post
....
....
In theory, the court system could award damages that would compensate Apple and would be high enough to stop future infringement, but that's slow, too, and the damages awarded were only a small fraction of Samsung's profits from infringing, so there's really not much incentive to stop the infringement.

 

Because of the time it takes to get an import ban rendering banned products obsolete (or)

in case of damage payout's the paid out amount is a small percentage of the total profit made from the device in question, Samsung would still keep infringing and wont ever have the need to stop.

 

Irrespective of this, there's damage being done on Samesung's reputation. People do see that they are getting banned. Don't you think that would negatively impact sales of there non-banned phones too ? The consumers obvious question would be , "Should I buy this phone, who knows if its gonna get banned sooner or later in the country, meaning ill end up loosing support for the device in the future".

post #24 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesmcd View Post

U.S. patent law is such nonsense - this rubbish could go on for the next century and achieve absolutely nothing (except spending a colossal amount on lawyers and not on innovation).

Yeah. Apple's competitors have been the cutting-edge innovators in this business...... /s

post #25 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

Pointless if some really old model's are being banned.

 

I haven't found a list of what all is included in the ban, but you can be certain that they're old models.  It's not pointless for Apple if they can land a ban though. If this ban goes into effect, expect a LOT more lawsuits coming from Apple's corner.  They will most certainly expand their sights to newer Android devices and try to get them banned as well.

post #26 of 111

Fire sale on Galaxy S3!

 

Good job copying, Samie!

post #27 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Fire sale on Galaxy S3!

 

Good job copying, Samie!

 

Yeop its a possibility that retail outlets might drop prices of the phones to sell it before landing a ban.

Or when the ban goes into effect they'll have to push all there inventory into the gray / black market.

 

Still too early to judge though.

post #28 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Yes, but the S4 wasn't out when this case was started, so it's not included. Furthermore, Samsung claims that they have a workaround so Apple can't automatically add the S4 to the list of infringing devices.

Apple will have to file a separate case against the S4 (or maybe they've already done so), prove that the S4 infringes, and then get it banned. The process is slow enough that devices are already obsolete before they get banned.

In theory, the court system could award damages that would compensate Apple and would be high enough to stop future infringement, but that's slow, too, and the damages awarded were only a small fraction of Samsung's profits from infringing, so there's really not much incentive to stop the infringement.

I'd say that these lawsuits have been very effective. Samsung did change the SGS 3 so it didn't look so much like a iPhone even before they lost. I believe that they have indeed taken some steps in the right direction at least at least when it comes to the design patents (and isn't that what you've always said was the point of the lawsuits?) The utility patents are of course a different story. Some might say this is too late but I don't agree, it will ensure that Samsung and anyone else to think twice about infringing on Apple's patents.
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post #29 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

I'd say that these lawsuits have been very effective. Samsung did change the SGS 3 so it didn't look so much like a iPhone even before they lost. I believe that they have indeed taken some steps in the right direction .... blah blah

It's irrelevant if the initial copying is what enabled them to gain the share, hence the revenue, and hence the funds to make the subsequent cosmetic changes, instead of spending the resources required to innovate (or pay for licenses) up front -- don't you think?

post #30 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

Yeop its a possibility that retail outlets might drop prices of the phones to sell it before landing a ban.
Or when the ban goes into effect they'll have to push all there inventory into the gray / black market.

Still too early to judge though.

Don't be surprised if it's business as usual at the local retailers. Getting a ban and enforcing a ban are 2 very different things. I'm sure the local police department has other things to do than to run up inside cell phone stores to make sure they're not selling a banned device.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #31 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

It's irrelevant if the initial copying is what enabled them to gain the share, and hence revenue, and hence the funds to make the subsequent cosmetic changes, instead of their spending the resources required to innovate (or pay for licenses) up front.

I'd agree if we all didn't have a good laugh at their dismal sales reports. Their sales didn't improve until the SGS 3 which at least design wise didn't infringe.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #32 of 111

Samsung provided The Verge with the following statement on today's decision:

We are disappointed that the ITC has issued an exclusion order based on two of Apple’s patents.  However, Apple has been stopped from trying to use its overbroad design patents to achieve a monopoly on rectangles and rounded corners.  The proper focus for the smartphone industry is not a global war in the courts, but fair competition in the marketplace.  Samsung will continue to launch many innovative products and we have already taken measures to ensure that all of our products will continue to be available in the United States.

Apple's statement can be read below:

With today's decision, the ITC has joined courts around the world in Japan, Korea, Germany, Netherlands and California by standing up for innovation and rejecting Samsung's blatant copying of Apple's products. Protecting real innovation is what the patent system should be about.

post #33 of 111

This decision has no effect on me. I don't own any Samsung or Apple stock so I have nothing to gain/lose financially from this. None of my Apple devices will change functionality since this decision either.

 

So why am I feeling so happy?

 

Simple. Just knowing how many trolls, haters and other useless posters in countles forums around the world are going to be fuming over this all weekend long kinda brings a smile to my face. It's hot and sunny here and I'm spending the weekend with my kids. So much better than raging over something that doesn't affect you, yet that doesn't stop so many people from letting it ruin their weekend.

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post #34 of 111

The ITC ban does target older or discontinued products but that is not what Apple was aiming for.  Apple wanted an ITC ruling in place on the infringement of the two patents.  With an ITC ruling/ban in place, Apple could ask the ITC to ban additional and new Samsung products that are still on the market and all it has to do is show that these products are infringing on the two patents.  

 

The following comment by Florian Muller at FOSSPatents.com supports this view:

 

ITC import bans are not limited to the exemplary infringing products at issue in an investigation, which are typically rather old. They broadly prohibit any violations committed through the importation of infringing goods by a respondent [SAMSUNG].

post #35 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Don't be surprised if it's business as usual at the local retailers. Getting a ban and enforcing a ban are 2 very different things. I'm sure the local police department has other things to do than to run up inside cell phone stores to make sure they're not selling a banned device.

Oh the local police wont have to bend a muscle to get that done. Apple will have there own people get in and out of every store, to report people selling banned devices :)

 

For all I know, the Apple Fan Base will chip in to that as well ;)

post #36 of 111

Samsung,

 

It's time to admit defeat and stop photocopying!!  Although you have a contingency plan by switching your Galaxy S line-up to the "Tizen" OS that you and Intel are big contributors to, I would keep looking for other alternatives to get out of this mess.  Why?!  Samsung and Intel are more of hardware companies; and do not have as much software development experience as Apple and Google do.

post #37 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

Tim Cook also said he hates litigation -- do as I say, not as I do.

Obama just signed into law the Patent Law Treaties Implementation Act of 2012, introduced just as Apple vs Samsung trial started in August -- the law, not surprisingly, expands the scope of design patents (easier to patent and litigate) and strongly favors Apple.  Then came the ITC import ban veto.


Obama is nothing more than a corporatist & a fan of economic protectionism and bailout; couldn't care about the patent lawsuit so long as it protects America's too-big-to-fail.  I'm no problem with this at all; after all, I guess it's his job to protect American economic interests, but, please, let's not pretend that this is all about patent lawsuits. 

Troll much?

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post #38 of 111

Some people just do not understand the difference between Standard Essential Patents

vs proprietary patents. Obama decision was based on the fact that banning Apple products on SEP is not good because
in this instance Samsung demanded licensing twice for the same SEP. Once from the chip vendor (CMDA technology) and later
from Apply that uses the chip. Not only that but Samsung wanted a percentage of the whole device (iPhone) which you would agree is just greed.

 

In this case Samsung is charged not on Apple SEP but rather Apple own patents. Can you see the difference?

post #39 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

Tim Cook also said he hates litigation -- do as I say, not as I do.

Obama just signed into law the Patent Law Treaties Implementation Act of 2012, introduced just as Apple vs Samsung trial started in August -- the law, not surprisingly, expands the scope of design patents (easier to patent and litigate) and strongly favors Apple.  Then came the ITC import ban veto.


Obama is nothing more than a corporatist & a fan of economic protectionism and bailout; couldn't care about the patent lawsuit so long as it protects America's too-big-to-fail.  I'm no problem with this at all; after all, I guess it's his job to protect American economic interests, but, please, let's not pretend that this is all about patent lawsuits. 

You don't have a problem with this at all you say? I think you need to reread your post. If you're not going to be honest with yourself or people here its no wonder you don't understand the issues involved.
post #40 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Samsung provided The Verge with the following statement on today's decision:

We are disappointed that the ITC has issued an exclusion order based on two of Apple’s patents.  However, Apple has been stopped from trying to use its overbroad design patents to achieve a monopoly on rectangles and rounded corners.  The proper focus for the smartphone industry is not a global war in the courts, but fair competition in the marketplace.  Samsung will continue to launch many innovative products and we have already taken measures to ensure that all of our products will continue to be available in the United States.

 

nice try Samsung.  neither of the two patents had anything to do with rectangles and rounded corners.  If you really believed in what you said about patents, you should stop filling your own patents if you never intended to use them against anyone.

Apple's statement can be read below:

With today's decision, the ITC has joined courts around the world in Japan, Korea, Germany, Netherlands and California by standing up for innovation and rejecting Samsung's blatant copying of Apple's products. Protecting real innovation is what the patent system should be about.

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