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Steve Jobs reportedly mulled axing Apple's pro products - Page 2

post #41 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiraniumbra View Post

If they bring back the 17" MacBook pro with a retina display, I'll forgo my overseas trip next year. I want on of those baby's so bad

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post #42 of 130
Current Economics vs Professional Rational

Wthout the 'Professionals' there would be no Consumer market.
Unless you think 'Reality TV' is king.

'Professionals' are the drivers; the designers, the artists, and the coders. They generate the content viewed/played/read by consumers.

If your going to f*** over the professionals... your... Microsoft.
and we all know how that world looks and plays.

Steve soon realized that if they put a bullet through the heads of all their 'Think Different' icons of change, Apple would become irrelevant... never even getting the opportunity to do anything of importance.

Software.
Professional designers collectively designed Apple to afford it's current success.
ie. Fonts.
No different then Apple courting the music/Movie/game/publishers today. Content is king.

Apple without an army of creative professionals using their computers to generate content is the death of Apple.
post #43 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Count me in the Pro 17" camp.

I had a 17" (techinally still have) and was forced into a 15" retina. The resolution on retina is astounding but I can't help but miss the physical real estate of the 17". It's the perfect laptop screen size.

I thought they didn't update the 17" due to the newness of retina displays and had to wait for the price to come down. The 17" version would be expensive at the time.

But now, there will likely be 27" iMac retina displays. So a 27" MacBook Pro screen is seemingly feasible again.

I'd definitely buy one. Day one.

The Mac Pro too is something I can't wait to grab. It's a beast.

I don't think the "pro" crowd is shrinking at all.

But the consumer products are obviously going to overshadow everything since they focus on consuming that which is created.

But you need machines to do the creating. No need to leave that to the windows gang.

I rather doubt that there will ever be be a 27" Macbook Pro. Don't you think that the 27" size would be counter to one of the major reasons why laptop / portables / tablets were created to begin with?

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post #44 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

But Apple did kill the Xserve and let the Mac Pro languish for years, with the recently disclosed Mac Pro re-design hardly being a high-end product*... except for FCPX users.

*e.g., the new Mac Pro is only single processor, has only 4 DIMM slots and no expansion options.

"No expansion options" is completely false. With Thunderbolt, you have the ability to add an immense array of expansion options.
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post #45 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic View Post

I rather doubt that there will ever be be a 27" Macbook Pro. Don't you think that the 27" size would be counter to one of the major reasons why laptop / portables / tablets were created to begin with?

That is clearly a typo, when the poster refers to the EOL'd MacBook Pro
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post #46 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post


...

A few people have noted that you can now cram more onto a 15" screen than I can on my old 17", but it's all really SMALL. The precision required to put the cursor on a bezier curve handle that's about the size of a pin head is more than my clumsy hands can muster. Sure, a 22" monitor would be even better than a 17" display, but until they make one that runs on batteries and folds into a computer so I can carry it around...

...


You may not be aware of it -- with OSX you can toggle a magnifying loupe that moves with the cursor.

It is enabled in System Settings--->Accessibility. The default toggle is Command-Option-8.

On OSX Mavericks, you can set the size of the loupe and the magnification within the loupe. You can also make the loupe stationary or split the screen 1::3 with the left segment magnified.


I have 74-year-old eyes and short fat fingers -- and find that many controls are too small on a 27" iMac. With the loupe toggled I can easily rotoscope (bezier curves) or make fine adjustments with Photoshop, FCP X, etc.

Give it a try -- I think you'll like it!
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post #47 of 130
QUESTION:
Do you why Steve Jobs changed his mind on Professional products?

ANSWER:
Microsoft's Steve Ballmer's 20 second Talk on Professional Developers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6VIJZRE
post #48 of 130

NEW CUSTOMERS CAN'T VISUALLY SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 17"MBP and 15"MPB,

HENCE, NEW CUSTOMERS DON'T EVEN KNOW 17" MBP EXISTS

 

By the way, one of the reason why the 17" didn't sell well is because you can't visually see the difference between a 15"MBP and 17"MBP.

 

If you stand at the front door of an Apple Store when they had the 17", could you easily see where the 17"MBP's where located?

Even if you were standing next to the table with 15" and 17" MBPs, could you easily see the difference?

Only when it's directly side by side could you see the difference.

 

How can you sell the 17"MBP when NEW CONSUMERS don't even know it exists in the first place?

Could NEW CONSUMER of APPLE see at a coffee shop if a professional had a 17"MBP?

Most likely, no, they cannot.

 

Hence, how can a new customer confidently purchase a 17"MBP if they don't see others using a 17"MBP?

Can new customers even ask someone at a coffee shop about a 17"MBP on whether it's worth the price or value

if they can't see WHO at the coffee shop to ask in the first place?

post #49 of 130
The original idea was to remove products and take 30% of everything. Google scuppered too much by competing with their own free apps. I half suspected that the new middle ground of some Apple software is to encourage software competition whilst moving OS/X to a solid safe walled garden.
post #50 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


For example, I always felt that dropping Pippin and Newton was a mistake, but they had to focus.

One can say that Newton wasn't dropped -- it came back to us as an iPhone.    

post #51 of 130
This story from Ken Segall indicates once again that Apple, or at least Steve Jobs at that point in its history, saw itself as a small company with a limited pool of talented engineers and designers to focus on any given project. Another example is given in Jobs' own words to Walt Mossberg about the development of the iPhone vs. the iPad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QztwBzcVaw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

People keep saying around here, why doesn't Apple release this or update that, or innovate something new already since it's been a whole year etc., as if they had an unlimited supply of engineers sitting around waiting to fix the legacy stuff or start the next big project. They apparently do not. They're still a small start-up spread all around Cupertino in temporary offices. It looks like, if they're going to do pro-ish stuff, they're only going to do it as breakthrough innovation, turning teams from one project to another.

So on the other hand, what they come up with is always going to seem alien to "the pros," since they see the rug being pulled out from the familiar platform that they've devoted years of their working lives to. I hope Apple learned a lesson from the Final Cut Pro reaction. That was unnecessarily brutal. You shouldn't treat your most loyal customers that way, as if you think your new pro innovation is going to be the answer to all their prayers. They aren't going to see it that way.
Edited by Flaneur - 8/10/13 at 9:41am
post #52 of 130
Originally Posted by MBP17Developer View Post
NEW CUSTOMERS CAN'T VISUALLY SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 17"MBP and 15"MPB,

HENCE, NEW CUSTOMERS DON'T EVEN KNOW 17" MBP EXISTS

 

Er, proof?


By the way, one of the reason why the 17" didn't sell well is because you can't visually see the difference between a 15"MBP and 17"MBP.

 

Of course you could.


If you stand at the front door of an Apple Store when they had the 17", could you easily see where the 17"MBP's where located?

 

I could see where the pro laptops are located, which is the point from the door. This isn't Samsung we're talking about.


Even if you were standing next to the table with 15" and 17" MBPs, could you easily see the difference?

Only when it's directly side by side could you see the difference.

 

Again, yes. And no, in that order.


Could NEW CONSUMER of APPLE see at a coffee shop if a professional had a 17"MBP?

Most likely, no, they cannot.

 

Professionals wouldn't be going to coffee shops. 1tongue.gif


Hence, how can a new customer confidently purchase a 17"MBP if they don't see others using a 17"MBP?

 

By not having their self-worth tied to the purchases of others. How is that even a question?

post #53 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

A few people have noted that you can now cram more onto a 15" screen than I can on my old 17", but it's all really SMALL. The precision required to put the cursor on a bezier curve handle that's about the size of a pin head is more than my clumsy hands can muster.

The 15" rMBP has the same working resolution as the 17" and the UI is small on both at that resolution. Someone here returned a 17" because the UI was too small:

http://gdgt.com/discuss/resolution-just-too-high-at-1920-x-1200-2bx/

The advantage with the rMBP is that you can run it at 1680 x 1050 or 1440 x 900 and not have to worry about poor quality scaling. Oddly Apple doesn't list the optimal scaled resolutions in the spec:

http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-retina/

The physical difference between the 17.0" and 15.4" isn't the difference between 1920x1200 being usable or unusable. The 17" is hard to read at that high resolution:





The second image shows an overlay of what a 15.4" rMBP would look like with the same UI as the 17.0" behind it. There's very little difference in discernability of the UI from one to the other. The slightly larger scale might be a little more comfortable for some but a $300 premium along with added bulk just wasn't a good compromise for the majority of MBP buyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

Sure, a 22" monitor would be even better than a 17" display, but until they make one that runs on batteries and folds into a computer so I can carry it around...

There are USB 3 bus-powered displays:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0073BOCNU/

If you only have to use the laptop in two main locations, it's best just to have a decent display in each location though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cprso 
the recently disclosed Mac Pro re-design hardly being a high-end product*... except for FCPX users.

*e.g., the new Mac Pro is only single processor, has only 4 DIMM slots and no expansion options.

The single processor still goes up to 12-core/24-thread like the old one, supports 64GB RAM (will do 128GB when DDR4 arrives) and Thunderbolt is its expansion option. On top, it now has dual GPUs and PCIe storage. Equivalent workstations from other vendors can be specced higher but they will cost a lot more for the higher spec to the point that hardly anyone will buy them anyway. For the $2-6k price range, Apple will be competitive in performance-per-watt, performance-per-dollar and they'll still have the nicest workstation out of any manufacturer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain 
Apple without an army of creative professionals using their computers to generate content is the death of Apple.

The army is on 13"/15" Macbook Pros and iMacs though so it's important to think about which products would have been for the chopping block and who it would have affected.
post #54 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

This story from Ken Segall indicates once again that Apple, or at least Steve Jobs at that point in its history, saw itself as a small company with a limited pool of talented engineers and designers to focus on any given project. Another example is given in Jobs' own words to Walt Mossberg about the development of the iPhone vs. the iPad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QztwBzcVaw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

People keep saying around here, why doesn't Apple release this or update that, or innovate something new already since it's benn a whole year etc., as if they had an unlimited supply of engineers sitting around waiting to fix the legacy stuff or start the next big project. They apparently do not. They're still a small start-up spread all around Cupertino in temporary offices. It looks like they're only going to do pro-ish stuff, they're only going to do it as breakthrough innovation, turning teams from one project to another.

So on the other hand, what they come up with is always going to seem alien to "the pros," since they see the rug being pulled out from the familiar platform that they've devoted years of their working lives to. I hope Apple learned a lesson from the Final Cut Pro reaction. That was unnecessarily brutal. You shouldn't treat your most loyal customers that way, as if you think your new pro innovation is going to be the answer to all their prayers. They aren't going to see it that way.

 

You missed your own point.    That was Apple "at that point in history", which happened to be when it was in deep financial trouble and with an incredibly tiny share of the market.   Apple today is most certainly not "still a small start-up".      And the fact that many workers are spread around Cupertino is irrelevant since most are at headquarters and those who are spread around are most likely "back room" workers:  accounting, systems, etc.   If anything, if Apple was smaller, they might not be finding it so hard to produce the next new generation of products. 

 

The problem with Final Cut Pro was not that Apple wasn't dedicating enough resources to pro products.   It was that Apple is arrogant and thinks it knows better than what people in the field know.   The difficulty is that in order to make bleeding-edge products, sometimes you do have to break industry conventions, even when you're the one who created some of them, but this will get great resistance from the marketplace because people do not like to change.     I remember in the 1970s when the flatbed Steenbecks came into use and were obviously far superior to the vertical Moviolas, many cutters wanted to stick with the Moviolas because it was what they knew.   As a film student who was already very familiar with technology, I only wanted to edit on the Steenbeck.   

 

I know from my own application design work that customers can be extremely frustrating because they've rationalized their idiotic and inefficient operating practices into something that they "must have".      As just one tiny example, our software can easily have someone approve a payment online and then forward the request on to the accounts payable system.   But one of our customers insists that they still must print the check request out and have someone actually physically sign it.   But these are the same people who do a deal and don't bother to get the contract signed until after the product has been long in the market. 

 

So when Apple wants to break convention, I generally support them.  The biggest problem with Final Cut Pro, as I understand it, weren't the changes to the UI, most of which were pretty good.   The problem was that Apple didn't understand the workflows that take place on large productions with multiple users and they severely underestimated the need for people to still be able to re-edit old productions produced under the older version of the software who would have found it extremely inefficient to have to maintain both old and new versions of FCP, since the old files wouldn't work with the new version. 

 

For all the complaints, I have heard pro editors say that they can now accomplish in a day what it used to take three editors a week to accomplish.     That's not to say that everything in Apple's UI is as intuitive as it should be.    Personally, I'm waiting for the next major release of FCP - I'm hoping it's an improvement and not another case of two steps forward, three steps backwards.  

 

As for the next MacPro, in spite of the nifty design, I do think Apple is making a mistake.   Rightly or wrongly, the kinds of users who would purchase such a machine want accessibility and the ability to add cards.   And they want a machine that can handle multiple processors.   Apple is ignoring that at their peril.  It's almost as if Apple wants this machine to fail so they can stop making it. 

 

I do agree with those who say that a company gets its reputation from the top of the line.   Whether it's cars, cameras, fashion or computers, the reputation of a line comes from the top.   For many companies, it's almost "bait-and-switch" because the high end is frequently designed and produced by the namesake designer and the lower-end products are produced by licensees.   So even though Apple may not sell very many MacPros (or even MacBook Pros), if they drop those lines, I think it will hurt sales of the entire line, because Apple will be perceived as a company that produces technology for amateurs.  

post #55 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by See Flat View Post

So-called "pros" ? I assume you are a So-called "fanboy" and you think you can do everything on your iPad or mac mini. 

 

People are entitled to opinions, just as you are. Having a pro devision is like engine, brake, tire, oil manufactures participating in F1 racing. It is R&D and the technology moved forward in the pro devision trickles down to those toys you love using. 

 

I've never met a pro, only posers claiming to pros. And posers abound on web forums. Real pros don't have the time. 

post #56 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


I disagree. I have a 2006 17" MBP and it's not unreasonably large. I assume that a newer one would be much thinner and lighter so it would be even less of a problem.

It was apparently dropped due to lack of demand rather than due to its large size, per se.

After getting the MBA 11", I am never going to have a laptop with a larger screen. Had a 17" HP for my job for a while, to large to travel with, to small to do demanding jobs that need a large monitor. My next desktop upgrade will be the new Mac Pro with my current iMac 27" in it's second coming as a monitor, taking care of the greatest shortcoming of the iMac; the difference between the technological life of a computer and the service life of a monitor.


Edited by RPT - 8/10/13 at 10:14am
post #57 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman View Post

Just revisited the Mac Pro preview on Apple's website, that thing is seriously amazing. If you've ever built your own PC, you'll know how many heat sinks and cooling fans there could be in a PC, its not unusual even for casual (not complete beginner casual) to replace the stock heat sink and fan of the CPU with a better after market cooler, and you might put a fan or two on the case to help cool the GPU and in general. So for the Mac Pro to fit everything to that single heat sink with one fan, its absolutely out of this world.

 

You cannot buy components that fit like that in the consumer PC components market, so what you end up with when you build a beast of a computer is to make it HUGE, huge enclosure with great cooling features, lots of expansion possibility, everything more or less must be inside, what's outside is usually just the external storage. And consumer GPUs are huge also, each with its own cooling attached and this class of GPU will probably need extra power, you need two to match the Mac Pro. There is no way to build a PC like that with similar performance, and at that size on your own, size won't even be close really. And the the Mac Pro enclosure is aluminum too, without a seam, how did they do that??

Extrusion I guess!

post #58 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Indeed, and this particular consideration shouldn't be surprising at all. It seems like something he would have thought up in the first place. Seems a shame to want to destroy something so great and industry-leading as Final Cut and Logic are, but Jobs was also a pragmatist. In '96, after the NeXT purchase but before being declared interim CEO, he said it might be a good idea to let the cloners do their thing. "Apple should strive to just make better hardware than any of them!" or something along those lines. He also said "milk the Mac for all it's worth and move on to the next great thing." Really, that last one could be argued as happening. I don't see the traditional keyboard+mouse+computer setup lasting beyond 2020.
Well the pro might eventually be a improved iMac in future cases you know a little thicker with better processors, graphics etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eng12 View Post

The return of the 17" MacBook Pro would be great. 4k screen, 16x10 aspect ratio, and the ability to have 2 PCI-e disks. If they can get 12 hours of runtime out of it, even better. I hope they are working on it. My current 2009 17" needs to last until they release something that can replace it.
17 inch will likely not be that extreme.

Does this mean that there is likely pro version of IOS devices being tested.
post #59 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


"No expansion options" [in the new Mac Pro] is completely false. With Thunderbolt, you have the ability to add an immense array of expansion options.

Oh, really?  Every expansion option for the new Mac Pro involves external devices with their own messy cables and enclosures, just as you suggest. And this is a completely different situation from all other professional workstations of the past and present, including the original Mac Pro design, which provides numerous internal expansion options from the OEM and several third parties.

 

The only hope is for Apple to offer configuration options that ditch one of the unnecessary GPUs for a second Xeon and a whopping 4 more  DIMM slots.

post #60 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

As for the next MacPro, in spite of the nifty design, I do think Apple is making a mistake.   Rightly or wrongly, the kinds of users who would purchase such a machine want accessibility and the ability to add cards.   And they want a machine that can handle multiple processors.   Apple is ignoring that at their peril.  It's almost as if Apple wants this machine to fail so they can stop making it.

The people buying Mac Pros don't want to add cards for the most part. The companies selling the cards don't sell enough of them for that to be possible. Some like to add their own GPUs but there have never been that many great GPU options for the Mac and Apple doesn't make any money from people adding their own cards. IO, video capture and audio processing cards all work over Thunderbolt because it's a form of PCIe same as the slot but in a different form factor and it's plug and play and can be daisy-chained.

When it all boils down to it, there's only one functional difference between the old and new Mac Pro and that is you can't use NVidia GPUs very well. There are even workarounds for this though for people who really depend on CUDA acceleration:

http://www.coreyrobson.com/post/52451664259/thunderbolt-gpu-is-alive-and-mostly-well

I actually do think Apple wanted to stop making the Mac Pro but not because they want to abandon customers. They just don't want computers to unnecessarily retain an archaic form factor. They were involved with Intel on Thunderbolt for a reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

I do agree with those who say that a company gets its reputation from the top of the line.   Whether it's cars, cameras, fashion or computers, the reputation of a line comes from the top.

Apple hasn't gained any reputation from their highest-end products. The iPod, iMac and iPhone are what made Apple a well-recognised and respected brand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro 
The only hope is for Apple to offer configuration options that ditch one of the unnecessary GPUs for a second Xeon and a whopping 4 more DIMM slots.

The only hope to avoid what outcome? Dual 12-cores would cost over $7k so the audience isn't there and Apple only offers 64GB RAM even with 8 slots. The new Mac Pro will sell in similar numbers at launch to the old Mac Pro when a new model comes out.
post #61 of 130
The problem with killing off the Pro line is that you're producing professional software intended to compete with other professional products. Logic vs. Pro Tools, Final Cut vs. Avid, Aperture vs. Lightroom. You could argue that Aperture can be run on almost any iMac... but you really need PCI-E and other expansion modules for running Pro Tools and Avid. Studios aren't going to throw out hundreds of thousands of dollars of hardware just because Apple decided the professionals wanted the desktop computer tower to be more compact. It's a bad move if you ask me...
post #62 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

The problem with Final Cut Pro was not that Apple wasn't dedicating enough resources to pro products.   It was that Apple is arrogant and thinks it knows better than what people in the field know.   The difficulty is that in order to make bleeding-edge products, sometimes you do have to break industry conventions, even when you're the one who created some of them, but this will get great resistance from the marketplace because people do not like to change.     I remember in the 1970s when the flatbed Steenbecks came into use and were obviously far superior to the vertical Moviolas, many cutters wanted to stick with the Moviolas because it was what they knew.   As a film student who was already very familiar with technology, I only wanted to edit on the Steenbeck.   

 

 

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

-- Henry Ford

 

Arrogant? Absolutely. And no one in modern times is more awesomely arrogant than Steve Jobs.

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post #63 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

-- Henry Ford

 

Arrogant? Absolutely. And no one in modern times is more awesomely arrogant than Steve Jobs.

 

 

That's a commonly misunderstood statement, in my opinion.

 

Ford was right. His customers were not forward-thinking or imaginative enough to envision the automobile. They did express what they wanted though, and Ford listened.

 

Customers didn't care whether or not they used horses. The operative part of the phrase was "faster." They didn't say "cars" because there was no such thing. Ford came up with a way to give them "faster horses."

 

The quote is often presented as evidence that customers don't know what's good for them, but that's not the lesson I take away from it at all. The way I see it, Ford was saying the successful company will be the one that can listen to what its customers are saying, find the fundamental element that matters to them, then deliver it.

post #64 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Jobs considered various options before making decisions.

Why is that news to anyone?

Exactly. I'm sure he 'mulled' Catholicism, dancing on hot coals and bungie jumping at some time. I am so sick of people from that a******le Sculley to this chap, all jumping on the 'Steve told me' band wagon. I talked to Steve at Mac World once, he was with Paul Brainerd, so I am going to write a book and have a TV show about what Steve told me … 1oyvey.gif … actually now I think about it … 1biggrin.gif

p.s. I also had dear John Sculley visit me once, so there is another book ...
Edited by digitalclips - 8/10/13 at 1:34pm
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post #65 of 130
Final Cut Pro was professional software. Compared to the consumer market you are talking nickel and dime stuff. DId they ever release sales figures?
post #66 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


You may not be aware of it -- with OSX you can toggle a magnifying loupe that moves with the cursor.

 

That's a right handy feature. Thanks, Dick!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The advantage with the rMBP is that you can run it at 1680 x 1050 or 1440 x 900 and not have to worry about poor quality scaling. Oddly Apple doesn't list the optimal scaled resolutions in the spec:

http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-retina/

 

The way I read that, it appears to be saying it's a high-ppi version of 1440 x 900. That means handles and other control elements should actually be slightly LARGER on the 15" then. Hmm. Still less working area than the 17' 1920 x 1200 of course, but none of the issues with small controls I was worried about.

 

So I guess the only trade off is a little more scrolling.

post #67 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post

Final Cut Pro was professional software. Compared to the consumer market you are talking nickel and dime stuff. DId they ever release sales figures?

What was the context of your comment?

If it was about the FCPro X saga, (I used FCPro 7 and now have X) I just upgraded Logic Pro 9 to Logic Pro X and I have to say Apple did a wonderful job on the latter.
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post #68 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post


That's a commonly misunderstood statement, in my opinion.

Ford was right. His customers were not forward-thinking or imaginative enough to envision the automobile. They did express what they wanted though, and Ford listened.

Customers didn't care whether or not they used horses. The operative part of the phrase was "faster." They didn't say "cars" because there was no such thing. Ford came up with a way to give them "faster horses."

The quote is often presented as evidence that customers don't know what's good for them, but that's not the lesson I take away from it at all. The way I see it, Ford was saying the successful company will be the one that can listen to what its customers are saying, find the fundamental element that matters to them, then deliver it.

In the context of Steve's comment, the reference / comparison is right. People in technology do not know what they want for the most part. Most fear change and worse, folks like IT techs, don't want it if it screws with their ability to screw / control other folks. Steve was 100% right to not listen to what people wanted IMHO. Paradigm shifts baby! Oh yeah! 1smoking.gif
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
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From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
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post #69 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."
-- Henry Ford

Arrogant? Absolutely. And no one in modern times is more awesomely arrogant than Steve Jobs.


That's a commonly misunderstood statement, in my opinion.

Ford was right. His customers were not forward-thinking or imaginative enough to envision the automobile. They did express what they wanted though, and Ford listened.

Customers didn't care whether or not they used horses. The operative part of the phrase was "faster." They didn't say "cars" because there was no such thing. Ford came up with a way to give them "faster horses."

The quote is often presented as evidence that customers don't know what's good for them, but that's not the lesson I take away from it at all. The way I see it, Ford was saying the successful company will be the one that can listen to what its customers are saying, find the fundamental element that matters to them, then deliver it.

I think you are somewhat incorrect... there were plenty of "cars" [automobiles] that predated Ford's cars -- some by more than a century. (steam, electric), So that part of your interpretations of the quote fails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_automobile
Quote:
Ferdinand Verbiest, a member of a Jesuit mission in China, built the first steam-powered vehicle around 1672 as a toy for the Chinese Emperor. It was of small enough scale that it could not carry a driver but it was, quite possibly, the first working steam-powered vehicle ('auto-mobile').[2][3]

Steam-powered self-propelled vehicles large enough to transport people and cargo were first devised in the late 18th century. Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot demonstrated his fardier à vapeur ("steam dray"), an experimental steam-driven artillery tractor, in 1770 and 1771. As Cugnot's design proved to be impractical, his invention was not developed in his native France. The centre of innovation shifted to Great Britain. By 1784, William Murdoch had built a working model of a steam carriage in Redruth, and in 1801 Richard Trevithick was running a full-sized vehicle on the road in Camborne.[4] Such vehicles were in vogue for a time, and over the next decades such innovations as hand brakes, multi-speed transmissions, and better steering developed. Some were commercially successful in providing mass transit, until a backlash against these large speedy vehicles resulted in the passage of the Locomotive Act (1865), which required self-propelled vehicles on public roads in the United Kingdom to be preceded by a man on foot waving a red flag and blowing a horn. This effectively killed road auto development in the UK for most of the rest of the 19th century; inventors and engineers shifted their efforts to improvements in railway locomotives. (The law was not repealed until 1896, although the need for the red flag was removed in 1878.)

The first automobile patent in the United States was granted to Oliver Evans in 1789.

Lack of roads limited the speed and distance of early cars and they were expensive.

What Ford did do is make a sturdy, reliable car that did not require a road, was faster than a horse (over a long distance) -- and was affordable to the common man.


Ford's arrogance was that he thought he knew better what his customers needed than they did... He was right.


Likely, Apple releasing FCPX and soon the new Mac Pro -- are, partially, the result of similar arrogance. I think they will be proven right, too.


The first Mac in 1984 cost the equivalent of $5,000 in today's dollars. I suspect that lots of prosumers will consider the new Mac Pro at a $5K or below price point... I know I will.



Edited by Dick Applebaum - 8/10/13 at 2:22pm
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post #70 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Jobs considered various options before making decisions.

Why is that news to anyone?

Exactly. I'm sure he 'mulled' Catholicism, dancing on hot coals and bungie jumping at some time. I am so sick of people from that a******le Sculley to this chap, all jumping on the 'Steve told me' band wagon. I talked to Steve at Mac World once, he was with Paul Brainerd, so I am going to write a book and have a TV show about what Steve told me … 1oyvey.gif … actually now I think about it … 1biggrin.gif

p.s. I also had dear John Sculley visit me once, so there is another book ...


I rode around Cupertino/Sunnyvale with Woz in his just tuned Porsche with a [then] top speed of 13 mph...

I smoked a cigarette in front of John Draper AKA Cap'n Crunch -- and got screamed at (in my own store)...
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post #71 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mundty View Post

you really need PCI-E and other expansion modules for running Pro Tools and Avid. Studios aren't going to throw out hundreds of thousands of dollars of hardware just because Apple decided the professionals wanted the desktop computer tower to be more compact. It's a bad move if you ask me...

Avid Pro Tools and other Avid products work on Thunderbolt as Avid themselves have been demonstrating.

http://www.magma.com/blog/avid-approves-magma-eb3t-eb7-pro-tools

"With ExpressBox 7 you can continue using your Mac Pro with confidence that your Pro Tools configuration is officially supported by Avid."

Avid's professional product revenue last year was $136m, split fairly evenly between audio and video products and includes software sales. This has been roughly the same for the past 3 years. Apple has a 5% worldwide PC marketshare but even if you assume that Avid's sales are 50/50 Mac/PC, it works out that they can't be selling more than 10,000 AV hardware devices to Mac Pro buyers a year and it can't be near that because their revenue includes software sales. This is a small fraction of Mac Pro buyers. Even if Mac Pro buyers were only 50k per quarter, this would be 5% of Mac Pro buyers using Avid PCIe hardware.

Same goes for Red with the Red Rocket products. The numbers are in the low thousands per year because of the price. And this also works over Thunderbolt - it won't work over USB 3 though because USB 3 is not PCIe. Thunderbolt is a form of PCIe.

For the minority that need PCIe hardware, the important peripherals work over Thunderbolt. For the majority, there's no downside at all. They now get dual GPUs so Adobe software and Blackmagic software runs faster and every machine will have fast PCIe storage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v 
The way I read that, it appears to be saying it's a high-ppi version of 1440 x 900. That means handles and other control elements should actually be slightly LARGER on the 15" then. Hmm. Still less working area than the 17' 1920 x 1200 of course, but none of the issues with small controls I was worried about.

It can do 1920x1200 too though or even higher if you want more workspace than a 27" Cinema display:



1680x1050 would be a good balance between workspace and UI size. That used to be the resolution on the 17" and some found the 1920x1200 too small:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3821831?start=0&tstart=0

"So I just purchased a new 17" Macbook Pro. Before anyone yells at me for not going to a store, the closest Apple store is 2 hours away.

The 1920X1200 resolution is really killing my eyes. Is there enough difference in size (increase of font size) to drop down to the 15" 1680X1050 hi res display to matter? I came from a 15" Macbook Pro with 1440X900 resolution.

To me when I switch my 17" to 1680X1050 the text is bigger and more readable, but blurry.

I've tried adjusting resolutions and fonts in certain programs, but it makes things blurry."

The Retina Macbook Pro lets you pick what resolution you prefer. If you like the UI big, drop to 1440x900, if you like more workspace, bump it to 1920x1200 or for a balance, go with 1680x1050.
post #72 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

But Apple did kill the Xserve and let the Mac Pro languish for years, with the recently disclosed Mac Pro re-design hardly being a high-end product*... except for FCPX users.

 

*e.g., the new Mac Pro is only single processor, has only 4 DIMM slots and no expansion options.

What part of "up to 12 cores" slipped past you? Just how big do you expect the next two generations of DIMMs to max out to?

 

It's not like we're going to be limited to 1GB memory parts, right?

post #73 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I smoked a cigarette in front of John Draper AKA Cap'n Crunch -- and got screamed at (in my own store)...

I had a wonderful time hanging around in your store, and watching some of the, um, interesting characters that wandered through was icing on the cake.

post #74 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Oh, really?  Every expansion option for the new Mac Pro involves external devices with their own messy cables and enclosures, just as you suggest. And this is a completely different situation from all other professional workstations of the past and present, including the original Mac Pro design, which provides numerous internal expansion options from the OEM and several third parties.

So? You said the new Mac Pro had no expansion options. That is clearly false.

Sure, some of the options will require an external box. So? These are professional boxes that will be sitting under a desk. You connect the expansion device and forget it - just like internal expansion. The only difference is that you don't risk damaging the internals of your computer when you use Thunderbolt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

[The only hope is for Apple to offer configuration options that ditch one of the unnecessary GPUs for a second Xeon and a whopping 4 more  DIMM slots.

Yeah, I'm sure you know more about computer design and the market than Apple does. They should simply fire everybody in their engineering departments and ask you what to do. 1oyvey.gif
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #75 of 130
If developers have to use non-Apple machines to create content, won't apps become more and more PC-like? One of the great advantages of having a Pro line is that it helps developers "get it," and pass the Zen of Mac on to the end-user. As for Apple producing a retina 17" MacBook Pro, it is the only way I will give up my 2009 model. :-)
post #76 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

These are professional boxes that will be sitting under a desk. You connect the expansion device and forget it - just like internal expansion. The only difference is that you don't risk damaging the internals of your computer when you use Thunderbolt.

A few people seem to have damaged their Mac Pros with upgrades or had other issues with PCIe slots:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4307547?start=0&tstart=0
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4679468?start=0&tstart=0
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1119266
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=539221
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=695027
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3968273?start=0&tstart=0
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3920268?start=0&tstart=0
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5024555?start=0&tstart=0
http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/apple-desktops/92157-broken-thing-pci-slot.html
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/124/881185
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?48452-Red-rocket-pci-slots-problem

Pushing it all external makes it largely someone else's problem and lowers the potential cost of damage. Apple only has to support the issues caused by their own hardware/software. Having it plug and play also makes it easier to resolve issues because you don't have to shut down the machine, unplug it, open it, reseat things and put it all back to see if it'll work properly. You can even use an online help guide and just unplug the box.

It's not ideal that the external boxes are so expensive but it affects a small portion of Mac Pro buyers and if they're the kind that spends $5000 on a PCIe card, $1000 on a box isn't the end of the world.

The thing that affects some people the most is lack of GPU upgrades. People who buy older/cheaper Mac Pros and then upgrade the GPUs to brand new ones or just extend the life of their machine by buying a GPU themselves can't do this any more. This is better from Apple's point of view because it means that people who want a new GPU have to buy a new Mac Pro instead of doing a DIY upgrade where they make no money at all.
post #77 of 130



13.6" x 9.6" x 10.9"              9.9" x .6.6"            9.9" x 7.7" x 7.3"



Not quite to scale... but close enough!
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 8/10/13 at 4:16pm
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post #78 of 130
So a $2500 pro computer is way expensive and only a very small niche market purchases it, resulting in a product with little profits, while a $600 phone is so cheap, cheap, cheap, that it sells better than toilet paper.

It's obvious what it makes it a niche isn't the price. Otherwise the iPhone would have a niche market.
post #79 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I smoked a cigarette in front of John Draper AKA Cap'n Crunch -- and got screamed at (in my own store)...
I had a wonderful time hanging around in your store, and watching some of the, um, interesting characters that wandered through was icing on the cake.

I knew most of our customers by name... PM me if we ever met.

Here, from an Apple video shoot in our Sunnyvale Store in late November 1983 When they filmed this they taped all the windows so no one could see into the store:

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post #80 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

So a $2500 pro computer is way expensive and only a very small niche market purchases it, resulting in a product with little profits, while a $600 phone is so cheap, cheap, cheap, that it sells better than toilet paper.

It's obvious what it makes it a niche isn't the price. Otherwise the iPhone would have a niche market.

It is interesting that the original 1984 Mac was priced at $2,495.

In today's dollars that would be over $5K.

Based on what it can do, and the price points -- I don't believe that this will be a niche product.


Here'a some more 1984 data -- to help put things into perspective:
Quote:
How Much things cost in 1984
  • Yearly Inflation Rate USA 4.3 %
  • Year End Close Dow Jones Industrial Average 1211
  • Interest Rates Year End Federal Reserve 10.75%
  • Average Cost of new house $86,730
  • Median Price Of and Existing Home $72,400
  • Average Income per year $21,600.00
  • Average Monthly Rent $350.00
  • Movie Ticket $2.50
  • 1 gallon of gas $1.10
  • Dodge RAM 50 Truck $8,995.00

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1984.html
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 8/11/13 at 1:20am
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