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Apple's 'iPhone 5S' to boast fingerprint sensor embedded in convex sapphire home button - Page 4

post #121 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwoloszynski View Post

The sensor from Authentech does not provide a traditional fingerprint read; it provides a unique biometric that the system can use to confirm is yours.  In fact, it likely only stores a hash of the measurement to compare with.  I doubt the fingerprint details ever get out of the sensor for a hacker to even read.

Besides, anyone who wants  your fingerprint can get it off just about anything you touch.  Red Solo cups (and some beer) and I have your fingerprint.  
Correct. And the hash is mathematically one-way. You cannot derive the fingerprint from it.
post #122 of 198

What if the raised button isn't a button?

post #123 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

It's not an actual sapphire…

It indeed is, it's just manfacturered instead of natural occurring.
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post #124 of 198
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
It indeed is, it's just manfacturered instead of natural occurring.

 

Yeah, not in the sense that he means.

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post #125 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

Sorry, but this isn't true at all.  I know lots of folks that go to the states all the time and they don't get fingerprinted at the border.  

Also, very few other countries (including most "western" countries) have biometric passports of any kind.  

You are saying that those people don't get in at all?  The implication from your statement is that the US is closed except to the "foreigners" of two or three nations, worldwide. 

Everybody I had seen in the non-resident lines at immigration at US airports had to put their fingers on a fingerprint scanner. I've also heard it from a lot of other people. But my sample is necessarily small. It could be that this was only for people without a biometric passport. While the US is requiring biometric passports for visa-free entry, they gave a fairly long grace period such that I can still go there without one but when my current passport expires (which it does next year), the new one will have biometric features.

 

EDIT: From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US-VISIT):

Initially, only visitors who required a visa inserted in their passport were included in the US-VISIT program. However, since September 30, 2004, visitors eligible for the Visa Waiver Program have also been required to use the US-VISIT program. Beginning January 18, 2009, most non-U.S. citizens (including lawful permanent residents) are subject to US-VISIT requirements.

 

EDIT 2: If you don't believe Wikipedia, here is .gov website (http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/usvisit/usvisit_edu_10-fingerprint_consumer_friendly_content_1400_words.pdf):

 

For more than five years, Department of State consular officers and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers have been collecting biometrics—two digital fingerprints and a photograph—from all non-U.S. citizens between the ages of 14 and 79, with some exceptions, when they apply for visas or arrive at U.S. ports of entry

(One of the exceptions is for Canadians.)

 

 

And have a look at this map from Wikipedia, your statement that "very few other countries (including most Western countries) have biometric passports of any kind" could not be further from the truth:

 


Edited by noirdesir - 8/11/13 at 12:56pm
post #126 of 198

Interesting. Perhaps most interesting of all to me is where are the part leaks for such a button? I hope this means that Apple can still keep a supply chain secret - even if this specific rumors turns out to be untrue!

post #127 of 198

The button will work as always. The seemless sensor tech built into the button for finger print verification would work as a secondary piece of functionality required to unlock the system if put in a locked state.

post #128 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yeah, not in the sense that he means.

I guess he doesn't know that timepieces have been using sapphire crystals for decades.
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post #129 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yeah, not in the sense that he means.

So? He was incorrect and someone corrected him. Maybe he'll take the opportunity to learn something.
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post #130 of 198

A convex button within a concave space may be the way to go when it comes to accidental clicking. 

post #131 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

 

KDarling, you should definitely send Apple an email with your concerns, which took you a few seconds of think of. No doubt over the years and months of developing implementing, and testing this technology, that they certainly did not think of or test any of these fundamental concepts on a device that will sell in the hundreds of millions. Almost every single major decision that Apple has ever taken was defined as a "terrible idea" by armchair CEOs everywhere- after which these decisions and concepts became massive successes with none of the issue that people concerned-trolled about. One would think you would have a bit more humility than having absolute confidence that all these things are "terrible ideas", without having a second of hands-on knowledge about any of them, and knowing that Apple has spent thousands of hours of testing.  

you are assuming that Apple is actually doing all this, disregarding that this is just a rumor from someone who hasn‘t seen the device! Most arguments are about whether the rumor as presented is logical. 

It doesn‘t seem logical. It would not be easy to shape a convex sapphire slice, and a convex (or concave) shape hinders scan reproducibility because it deforms the finger unevenly. I also doubt that the actual sensor could take a convex or concave shape

post #132 of 198
The amount of people with in depth knowledge on fingerprint tech is staggering. Maybe Apple should hire all AI forum members ¡
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post #133 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by WisdomSeed View Post

A convex button within a concave space may be the way to go when it comes to accidental clicking. 

Not quite sure what you mean, but a recessed convex button whose peak is flush with the flat surface would most certainly prevent accidental clicking but would also welcome in lots of dirt and debris.
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post #134 of 198

It is a nice feature to add but not really a wow! feature. Do't get me wrong in that I think it will be useful and a nice differentiator from other phones but I just can't see many people citing that as a reason to buy an iPhone 5S. I see more benefit from increasing the storage from 16GB to 32GB on the base model and improving the camera for most people than adding a fingerprint scanner. 

 

I wouldn't mind an additional option of voice authentication with Siri. Maybe a short phrase. But right now I don't think Siri has that ability to do voice authentication but it could happen down the road as they improve the speech engine. Voice-recognition biometrics is much more reliable and secure and is already being used in the military, banking, and other sectors so no reason why it couldn't be added to Siri in the future. 

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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post #135 of 198
Glad to see the rumor mill is alive and well and building on itself. By next week .........
post #136 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondm16 View Post

Will the phone store your own fingerprint so it knows its you when you unlock the phone? If so, do we have assurances that no one will collect said fingerprints in a database?

It doesn't read a fingerprint, so it doesn't store a fingerprint.

post #137 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran View Post
KDarling, noted anti-Apple troll, at it again.....
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
KDarling, you should definitely send Apple an email with your concerns...

 

Apparently you and a few other rude people, cannot tell the difference between debating an ANALYST RUMOR and an actual Apple design.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Not a problem at all. For example:
http://www.ultra-thin.com/sapphire.htm

 

Thank you very much for the link.  Let me check if 25 microns would be thin enough.  The capacitive/RF fingerprint sensor patents I've read mention one or two microns.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Hello!!?? They ain't gonna be scanning no fingers, especially a whole finger!! The devices reads the biometrics in a wholly different way than looking at the ridges ON the finger's surface.

 

Assuming they're using an RF type of sensor, all it's doing is reading the tiniest bit deeper than, and not relying on air gaps like, DC capacitive scanners.

 

The problem is, a convex surface would deform the finger ridges and dermis underneath, in different ways each time.  That's why scanners are flat.   So a flat button sensor would make a lot more sense all around.

 

The original rumor article said:

Quote:
"By using a convex home button instead of the familiar concave design, Apple will be able to make room for the much rumored fingerprint sensor without losing precious internal space, according to well-informed KGI analyst Ming-Chi Kuo."

 

The button is already thick enough inside for a sensor (especially with a remote chip, as Authentec has patented).   Going slightly convex is unnecessary, and ... as I pointed out before... would cause unnecessary extra problems with reading prints, creating a "sapphire layer" over it, and for users who opt out of the recognition.

 

Convex just doesn't make technical or practical sense for any currently known fingerprint sensor technology.

post #138 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.

 

 

That was the thought that I had. Unless it isn't going to require a whole finger scan but just the main whorl, but how effective is that 

 

I really do wonder if folks are taking this acquisitions implications way too far, at least at this point. Perhaps, for the moment, it has nothing to do with security is is for a more simplistic use like improving general screen response including palm rest type systems

post #139 of 198

While we're all speculating on rumors, what are the odds of placing a fingerprint scanner on the back of the phone?  The Fujitsu REGZA has an AuthenTec fingerprint scanner on the back of the phone and it appears to work fine there.  It can then be flush and may fit better in the useable space (one of the problems this rumor suggests Apple is having).

 

post #140 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

In the light of the whole NSA Prism saga, does anyone now have concerns about a device that captures literally everything we say and everywhere we go and now with a fingerprint sensor to personally identify you?

Just saying...

 

it really wouldn't be identifying you unless your fingerprint is on record somewhere. After all, I can have a prepaid phone account with little to no information attached to it so they can't even trace that once they identify my service number etc, no id on record and what is knowing they have Charlituna's phone and it goes to Starbucks a lot and plays temple run really going to tell them

post #141 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwoloszynski View Post

In fact, there was a comment that Apple plans to use a dedicated new touch sensor on the home button to avoid the issue with the button wearing out.  If they merged these two plans together, seems like they have a great answer.  A new button design that does not fail and one that provides substantially better security for the device.

 

Now I could see that way before I could see any kind of security connection. 

post #142 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

it really wouldn't be identifying you unless your fingerprint is on record somewhere. After all, I can have a prepaid phone account with little to no information attached to it so they can't even trace that once they identify my service number etc, no id on record and what is knowing they have Charlituna's phone and it goes to Starbucks a lot and plays temple run really going to tell them

I believe I recall the US Government (perhaps other governments too) making a special effort to track those using pre-paid phones, starting back in 2010.
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post #143 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman View Post

 

Of course, the phone needs a source to match the scan with, its like setting a password for a website login, you define it then the next time you login, the website tries to match your username and password against a database. But how do they match finger print scans to records, beats me.

 

Can someone lift my fingerprints CSI style from my desk or mug or something, then make a fake prosthetic finger out of it? Probably, but no one would go through that kind of trouble for my stupid phone, that's for sure.

 

The solution is easy, they can do one of two things. 

 

1. make it so that it has to have a capacitive charge to work, something that a fake finger or a piece of tape wouldn't give them. 

2. make it so that there's movement involved. Either on the button or on the whole screen (which is the real sensor the button). Perhaps in a movement that you decide. So you don't just hold your finger there, you decided to swipe left to right then bottom to top and then tap. or whatever

 

or even both

post #144 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ppietra View Post

Seems to me that the front side camera does far a better job identifying you, maybe that should also be of your concern.

 

If you use it. But not everyone is obsessed with taking half naked selfies 

post #145 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


I don't; it's needed for a hard reset/boot, amongst others.

 

They could always reassign that to some other button. Or perhaps they will get rid of the home button only in the sense of what we are used to and move it to the side or such. 

post #146 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by denobin View Post


Correct. And the hash is mathematically one-way.

Mmmm...hash.

post #147 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post

Don't be silly. The only foreign technology Apple has bought since 1988 are Anobit (Israel), eMagic and Astarte (Gernamy), SchemaSoft, Poly9 and Locationary (Canada), Polar Rose (Sweden), and Redmatica (Italy).

 

No Korean companies there, buddy.

You forgot to list the source code for OSX came from a wrecked UFO in storage deep under an empty hanger at Area 51. 

post #148 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


I believe I recall the US Government (perhaps other governments too) making a special effort to track those using pre-paid phones, starting back in 2010.

 

making an effort and being effective at it are two different things. 

post #149 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

it really wouldn't be identifying you unless your fingerprint is on record somewhere. After all, I can have a prepaid phone account with little to no information attached to it so they can't even trace that once they identify my service number etc, no id on record and what is knowing they have Charlituna's phone and it goes to Starbucks a lot and plays temple run really going to tell them

 

First: we do have your fingerprint on file. We also have your photograph from the moment you left the pre-paid phone store to where you urinated in the alley after getting blotto the other night (thanks for the DNA sample, by the way). The surveillance cameras also confirmed that you have nothing to brag about in the lovemaking department, if you catch our drift.

 

post #150 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

For more than five years, Department of State consular officers and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers have been collecting biometrics—two digital fingerprints and a photograph—from all non-U.S. citizens between the ages of 14 and 79, with some exceptions, when they apply for visas or arrive at U.S. ports of entry

(One of the exceptions is for Canadians.)  

 

.

 

 

I still don't believe it.  

 

I live in one of those countries and I can assure you there is no fingerprint or iris scanner information on our passports.  

I also have a passport from a second one of those countries and it also has no biometric information on it. 

 

If true, this is just another excellent reason to never go to the USA.  

Only some fascist nightmare of a country would require such a thing. 

post #151 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

If you use it. But not everyone is obsessed with taking half naked selfies 

If there was a conspiracy to identify you I don‘t think they would wait for you to take a picture, they would make sure one was taken when activating the device

post #152 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

making an effort and being effective at it are two different things. 

http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/12a0262p-06.pdf

No. 09-6497 United States v. Skinner Page 2
_________________
OPINION
_________________
ROGERS, Circuit Judge. When criminals use modern technological devices to
carry out criminal acts and to reduce the possibility of detection, they can hardly
complain when the police take advantage of the inherent characteristics of those very
devices to catch them. This is not a case in which the government secretly placed a
tracking device in someone’s car. The drug runners in this case used pay-as-you-go (and
thus presumably more difficult to trace) cell phones to communicate during the crosscountry shipment of drugs. Unfortunately for the drug runners, the phones were
trackable in a way they may not have suspected. The Constitution, however, does not
protect their erroneous expectations regarding the undetectability of their modern tools."

The rest of the details are in the link if you're inclined to read them.
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post #153 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


A square is a convex shape? A perfectly flat button can be convex?

You need to take a geometry class.

 

I did... a square is a convex polygon, even a triangle is. You may want to read up yourself...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convex_and_concave_polygons

post #154 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I still don't believe it.  

I live in one of those countries and I can assure you there is no fingerprint or iris scanner information on our passports.  
I also have a passport from a second one of those countries and it also has no biometric information on it. 

If true, this is just another excellent reason to never go to the USA.  
Only some fascist nightmare of a country would require such a thing. 

The sad fact is that people enter the US with malicious intentions many with falsified documents, so while one can buy a birth certificate and a passport they can't buy that person's fingerprints.
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post #155 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Thank you very much for the link.  Let me check if 25 microns would be thin enough.  The capacitive/RF fingerprint sensor patents I've read mention one or two microns.

What makes you so certain that the limitations of some other technology would be relevant to this technology?

Furthermore, why did you choose the thinnest STOCK thickness (25 microns) rather than the thinnest they can make (10 microns)?

Even more importantly, why did you ignore the possibility of the sapphire being deposited in an even thinner film rather than sliced from a large crystal?
Edited by jragosta - 8/11/13 at 2:38pm
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post #156 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterMuusers View Post

I did... a square is a convex polygon, even a triangle is. You may want to read up yourself...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convex_and_concave_polygons

While you are correct your application of it in this case is wrong. The home button is currently shaped like a concave lens so the use of convex here is understood to be a outwardly curved protruding home button.
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post #157 of 198

I'd like to know why AppleInsider is putting their indicia on a graphic that is the property of AuthenTec? That is just bizarre. It's AuthenTec's property, not AppleInsider's.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #158 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'd like to know why AppleInsider is putting their indicia on a graphic that is the property of AuthenTec? That is just bizarre. It's AuthenTec's property, not AppleInsider's.

 

I highly doubt there's any malicious intent.  The simplest explanation would be that they're trying to discourage hotlinking.

post #159 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterMuusers View Post

I did... a square is a convex polygon, even a triangle is. You may want to read up yourself...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convex_and_concave_polygons

Wrong. A concave polygon is a two dimensional construct. A device like a home button is three dimensional.

You need to start by learning that 'square' does not describe a three dimensional object. Not to mention, of course, that we're not talking about squares in this case, anyway.

But even if the object were flat and square shaped, it would not be 'convex' in the context of the finger contact area. It would be flat.
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post #160 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post


Convex just doesn't make technical or practical sense for any currently known fingerprint sensor technology.

Yeah, you said something similarly braggadocio-y about sapphire....
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