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Apple's 'iPhone 5S' to boast fingerprint sensor embedded in convex sapphire home button - Page 2

post #41 of 198
Just an idea, not sure if someone has already said this, but, because iOS 7 utilizes all directions of motion (left>right=back/unlock) (pull top down=notification center) (pull bottom up=control panel) except right to left does not have any functionality. Does anyone thing they are saving this function for the finger scanner (maybe you scan your finger right>left) so they don't want to confuse that motion (right>left) with anything else. Not sure, feel free to build on this idea. Or do you think they are they just never going utilize right>left motion?
post #42 of 198
@kdarling; Accidental home clicks in the pocket could be blocked by the proximity sensor
post #43 of 198

Will the phone store your own fingerprint so it knows its you when you unlock the phone? If so, do we have assurances that no one will collect said fingerprints in a database?

Always happy to debate an issue with anyone. Once it turns into name calling, I am out of there. 
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post #44 of 198
I have a feeling people who talk about Material Science Engineering while never being immersed in the field should stop wasting their time conjecturing on subjects they have zero comprehension about.
post #45 of 198

The rumored cheap iPhone getting this? Probably not right ... tsk, I was thinking of getting the 5C if its real.

 

Anyway, one positive of having it on the home button is that screen protectors won't need another hole for the scanner area. Not like I use those, degrades the screen quality.

post #46 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondm16 View Post

Will the phone store your own fingerprint so it knows its you when you unlock the phone? If so, do we have assurances that no one will collect said fingerprints in a database?

 

Of course, the phone needs a source to match the scan with, its like setting a password for a website login, you define it then the next time you login, the website tries to match your username and password against a database. But how do they match finger print scans to records, beats me.

 

Can someone lift my fingerprints CSI style from my desk or mug or something, then make a fake prosthetic finger out of it? Probably, but no one would go through that kind of trouble for my stupid phone, that's for sure.

post #47 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


AuthenTec, the biometric security firm Apple purchased in 2012, uses leading-edge capacitive and RF technologies in its biometric chips, a method that images fingerprints differently than existing optics-based systems. Kuo believes the tech is superior as the sensor is not subject to misreadings due to the build up of detritus or dust.

Ohhh...I always wanted to use the word "detritus" in a sentence.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 8/11/13 at 2:38am
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post #48 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Samsung will probably offer a smartphone with similar technology shortly after the new iPhone is introduced and by early next year, all Android smartphones will have fingerprint sensors. Anything Apple does that becomes successful will be quickly copied by rivals and there's nothing Apple can do about it. I doubt any patent is airtight and as far as I can tell from past experience, Samsung can reverse engineer any component with the greatest of ease. That's one huge advantage Samsung has over Apple. They never have any qualms about copying rival's technology and in fact they're rather proud of that ability. Why reinvent the wheel if someone else already has one?

Then why wouldn't Smarmy reverse engineer and copy Apple's A processors? They are superior to what Smarmy has and they are manufactured by Smarmy.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 8/11/13 at 2:42am
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post #49 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

In the light of the whole NSA Prism saga, does anyone now have concerns about a device that captures literally everything we say and everywhere we go and now with a fingerprint sensor to personally identify you?

Just saying...

Seems to me that the front side camera does far a better job identifying you, maybe that should also be of your concern. My point is if you don‘t trust the company then fingerprint or no fingerprint doesn‘t really matter since they would already have almost everything that identifies you, including your name.

And what this scanner gives quite probably won‘t match your fingerprint "optical" image


Edited by Ppietra - 8/11/13 at 2:40am
post #50 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Sept 10 will be interesting. Given the recent government spying scandal, I think there's going to be a serious discussion of the security and privacy implications of having every iPhone user's fingerprints right there available for the hacking.


Edit: s.metcalf beat me to it.

I agree, people are nervous and trust in government is probably at an all time low or if not close to it. Fingerprint sensing is all of a sudden a bad look for Apple. The timing couldn't be worse.

If you think this through, fingerprint verification will limit/prevent unauthorized access to your phone. the data stored therein and access to passwords, security, payment transactions, etc.

Adding fingerprint authorization doesn't give the government more or easier access to the phone.

And, as I understand it, the Apple reader does not use a format that is compatible or interchangeable with existing fingerprints- such as the FBI fingerprint files.

Further, the hashed fingerprint verification file(s) will be stored on the device and not transmitted anywhere.
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post #51 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

I don't know why people keep thinking your fingerprint will be stored somewhere as a simple image or that someone could copy it. Do you think passwords are stored as plain text? There will be a mathematical formula that converts your fingerprint into some type of data that can't be converted back to a fingerprint.

Others have mentioned that fingerprints are not 100% unique. Irrelevant. This is not going to be something that's used to identify you among all the hundreds of millions of other iOS users. It's simply a method to verify if the proper owner of the iPhone is actually trying to use it. It would also be very secure for mobile payments as the odds of your iPhone getting into the hands of someone with a close-enough fingerprint to fool it are astronomical.

The button also doesn't have to be big enough to read your entire finger/thumb. Why would it? When the iPhone is set up you could perform several "passes" so your entire print is analyzed. When unlocking your iPhone it only needs to see a portion of your finger/thumb print to see it if matches up with your entire finger/thumb. This also makes the device more user-friendly as you don't have to be exact with how you place your finger/thumb (unlike face unlock which can be picky at times). This will make it fast to use, which is something I'm sure Apple will be picky about.

Well reasoned and well said!
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post #52 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman View Post

 

Of course, the phone needs a source to match the scan with, its like setting a password for a website login, you define it then the next time you login, the website tries to match your username and password against a database. But how do they match finger print scans to records, beats me.

 

Can someone lift my fingerprints CSI style from my desk or mug or something, then make a fake prosthetic finger out of it? Probably, but no one would go through that kind of trouble for my stupid phone, that's for sure.

Why would that be necessary? Isn‘t it far simpler to match the "input" to the scan stored in your phone so that you can access your stored credentials for whatever service you want to use?

With this type of scanner it isn’t easy to fake a finger capable of reproducing the necessary reader signature! It doesn‘t necessarily match your fingerprint "optical" image, quite probably it won‘t

post #53 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondm16 View Post

Will the phone store your own fingerprint so it knows its you when you unlock the phone? If so, do we have assurances that no one will collect said fingerprints in a database?

Of course, the phone needs a source to match the scan with, its like setting a password for a website login, you define it then the next time you login, the website tries to match your username and password against a database. But how do they match finger print scans to records, beats me.

Can someone lift my fingerprints CSI style from my desk or mug or something, then make a fake prosthetic finger out of it? Probably, but no one would go through that kind of trouble for my stupid phone, that's for sure.

According to what I've read, this is new technology that analyzes 3D information below the surface of the skin. A "lifted" print is of no use.
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post #54 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ohhh...I always wanted to use the word "detritus" in a sentence.

Many opportunities have passed, with the various articles on Samsung ¡
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post #55 of 198
I wonder if the home button will even be a proper button any more or one of those touch buttons
post #56 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeiP5 View Post

I wonder if the home button will even be a proper button any more or one of those touch buttons

I don't; it's needed for a hard reset/boot, amongst others.
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post #57 of 198
It won't be convex. That's stupid. It will be concave or flat.

But Apples already become expert at manipulating sapphire with the camera lenses. A home button is a possibility. There is already plenty of room to work with.
post #58 of 198
I may be alone, but I don't give a flying %#*¥ about this unless it gives me an iWallet.

My phone is constantly in my pocket unless I'm home. I don't lock my phone with a pin now, because of this. So I can't get excited about a secure way to do something I don't do as it is. Obvs, other folks could use this, but for me it's just an extra step with no reward.
post #59 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Cue the finger-amputating thieves posts...

 

No cigar. Authentec technology will not be deceived by prints from a "dead" finger, allegedly... 

post #60 of 198
What? The American Apple have to use the Korean's technology to be better than their competitions. Here we all thought Apple sets the trends.
post #61 of 198

.


Edited by vulcan747 - 8/11/13 at 5:08am
post #62 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead View Post

Not if the fingerprint is needed to activate.

But I'm sure that there will be some type of override if the fingerprint gets damaged. A cut, burned or bruised finger could render it unreadable.
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post #63 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Samsung will probably offer a smartphone with similar technology shortly after the new iPhone is introduced and by early next year, all Android smartphones will have fingerprint sensors. Anything Apple does that becomes successful will be quickly copied by rivals and there's nothing Apple can do about it. I doubt any patent is airtight and as far as I can tell from past experience, Samsung can reverse engineer any component with the greatest of ease. That's one huge advantage Samsung has over Apple. They never have any qualms about copying rival's technology and in fact they're rather proud of that ability. Why reinvent the wheel if someone else already has one?

 

Constable Odo can be found huddled against the tiles walls of the Times Square - 42nd Street subway station receiving technical  information embedded in the screeching train wheel  to track noise. 

post #64 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenna View Post

What? The American Apple have to use the Korean's technology to be better than their competitions. Here we all thought Apple sets the trends.

Don't be silly. The only foreign technology Apple has bought since 1988 are Anobit (Israel), eMagic and Astarte (Gernamy), SchemaSoft, Poly9 and Locationary (Canada), Polar Rose (Sweden), and Redmatica (Italy).

 

No Korean companies there, buddy.

post #65 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

I don't know why people keep thinking your fingerprint will be stored somewhere as a simple image or that someone could copy it. Do you think passwords are stored as plain text? There will be a mathematical formula that converts your fingerprint into some type of data that can't be converted back to a fingerprint.

That's true on iOS. Apparently, however, Android uses plain text:
http://slashdot.org/story/11/07/24/1715232/Android-Password-Data-Stored-In-Plain-Text
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/09/20/rooted-android-passwords-plain-text/
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post #66 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post


Uhh... Then what? You press the solo cup on my iPhone?

Dust it like in CSI and read it.  You'd get the same info (probably more) as if you hacked the scanner on an iPhone 5S.  Do with the info as you see fit, but it is no more secure than that.

post #67 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

No, they will still need the mechanical home button.  Replacing it with a capacitive button is a fail for various reasons that have been gone over many times before.  

Please enlighten us.... I don't see the fail.

post #68 of 198

Whatever this is it had better work perfectly out of the box. Apple has boxed itself into a corner by not releasing any new products in something like 9 months. It looks like Apple will be releasing a broadside in the Fall and this had better be good. The critics and haters have been sharpening their knives and cleaning their handguns all Spring and Summer and are ready for Apple's offensive.

 

This fingerprint technology sounds complicated. I can just see the Apple discussion forums filling up with dimwits claiming it doesn't work for them because they have oily skin, or callouses, or disfigured fingertips, or some other weird reason they come up with. The "I can't log into my phone" chorus will be deafening and the tech blogs will be frenetic in nitpicking Apple to death. 

 

I have to say I have become more and more pessimistic about the future of mobile technology in general. Loading up hardware with feature after feature and loading up software with the same just to outdo the other guy is not innovation in my book.

post #69 of 198
Hopefully it is opt in to use fingerprint scanning instead of a passcode, it would be difficult for waterproof case manufacturers to make cases for it, and i need those cases sometimes
post #70 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcan747 View Post

.

Excellent point ¡
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post #71 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenna View Post

What? The American Apple have to use the Korean's technology to be better than their competitions. Here we all thought Apple sets the trends.

How about a warm welcome for Jena - Seoul Korea - who just signed up today.  Jenna, divest yourself of Samsung stock today for Apple is about to crush your

thieving,  no talent, dog of a company. 

post #72 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post


I have to say I have become more and more pessimistic about the future of mobile technology in general. Loading up hardware with feature after feature and loading up software with the same just to outdo the other guy is not innovation in my book.

I'm coming to the realization that since I started carrying a tablet I don't really use a smartphone for running apps or searching the web all that much, and certainly not if there's much reading involved. I'll just wait till I can get to a larger-screen device if I don't have one handy barring an "emergency". A 4" screen for me just doesn't cut it for a media consumption, or research device. Maybe if I mostly played games (apparently the biggest use of it for a lot of people) I might see it differently.

Now for those that can't afford or want both a tablet and smartphone then it's probably worth dealing with the limitations of a comparatively smallish display. Ya work with what ya got. For me the "magic" of a smartphone has been diminished by the recognition that even if I can run a spreadsheet on my phone do I really want to? Not really. I'll be better served by a smartphone that's first and foremost a phone with the best call quality, calling convenience and looonnng call-time battery life and not a tablet/laptop wannabe. As always YMMV.
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post #73 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcan747 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenna View Post

What? The American Apple have to use the Korean's technology to be better than their competitions. Here we all thought Apple sets the trends.
How about a warm welcome for Jena - Seoul Korea - who just signed up today.  Jenna, divest yourself of Samsung stock today for Apple is about to crush your
thieving,  no talent, dog of a company. 

Now now, bash on companies, not people.
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post #74 of 198
It's all coming together now, maybe.

iPhone 5C - Color
iPhone 5S - Sapphire
post #75 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Now now, bash on companies, not people.

Corporations are people too.
post #76 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

But I'm sure that there will be some type of override if the fingerprint gets damaged. A cut, burned or bruised finger could render it unreadable.
Yes, and that's why requiring a fingerprint to activate it won't work. If I can't get to my phone and need some information from it, no one else would be able to access it -- which won't happen.

Besides, whether or not the home button is deactivated wont affect whether the physical mechanism can be depressed -- and that's the primary fail of my iPhone 4; the home button is "sticky" not reliably functioning the way it's supposed to (after a year), and that I have read is directly attributable to an underspeced part unable to withstand the constant use.

Also, if there's some sensor that requires the presence of a finger to activate, why have a physical button at all? Just a flat fixed plate where the home button was.

In fact that makes more sense than anything. Lose the physical button. Use the fingerprint to differentiate the space from the rest of the touch screen to avoid accidental activation.

Then again, how do people without hands or fingers use it? The current iPhone can be used with pointing devices. A fingerprint required to activate button would prevent this.
post #77 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Corporations are people too.

Love it when you show your softer side. lol.gif
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post #78 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

Then again, how do people without hands or fingers use it? The current iPhone can be used with pointing devices. A fingerprint required to activate button would prevent this.

They probably have bigger problems than worrying about any phone.

Remember what Steve Jobs said under the keynote for the presentation for the iPhone, it uses the best input device in the world, and we all have them, we are born with them, 10 of them, our fingers. Apple makes devices for the masses, not for people with no hands.
post #79 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

In the light of the whole NSA Prism saga, does anyone now have concerns about a device that captures literally everything we say and everywhere we go and now with a fingerprint sensor to personally identify you?

Just saying...

Couldn't agree with you more. Might as well just submit to subdermal tagging now and get it over with.

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post #80 of 198
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Love it when you show your softer side. lol.gif

I try my best to hide it, but since I'm such a compassionate person, I sometimes let my guard down.1smoking.gif
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