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Apple's 'iPhone 5S' to boast fingerprint sensor embedded in convex sapphire home button - Page 3

post #81 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

But I'm sure that there will be some type of override if the fingerprint gets damaged. A cut, burned or bruised finger could render it unreadable.
Yes, and that's why requiring a fingerprint to activate it won't work. If I can't get to my phone and need some information from it, no one else would be able to access it -- which won't happen.

Besides, whether or not the home button is deactivated wont affect whether the physical mechanism can be depressed -- and that's the primary fail of my iPhone 4; the home button is "sticky" not reliably functioning the way it's supposed to (after a year), and that I have read is directly attributable to an underspeced part unable to withstand the constant use.

Also, if there's some sensor that requires the presence of a finger to activate, why have a physical button at all? Just a flat fixed plate where the home button was.

In fact that makes more sense than anything. Lose the physical button. Use the fingerprint to differentiate the space from the rest of the touch screen to avoid accidental activation.

Then again, how do people without hands or fingers use it? The current iPhone can be used with pointing devices. A fingerprint required to activate button would prevent this.

 

I'm not sure that anyone is saying that the fingerprint option will be the only way to unlock the phone or, even if it is the selected option, that there will not be another way in, with a reasonably secure password for example. I would guess that fingerprint authentication is attractive because it is potentially faster and simpler than entering codes or passwords, while still quite secure. Those who can't or don't want to use it but still want to lock their phones can presumably just use the regular PIN method.

post #82 of 198
FWIW Paypal is still pressing forward with a platform-agnostic face verification for mobile payments.
http://www.minyanville.com/sectors/technology/articles/Will-PayPal-Face-Verification-System-Kick/8/9/2013/id/51233
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post #83 of 198
Whether a 'click' is registered without a fingerprint or not, it's still a 'little' troubling that a component that is so critically important will be the one and only element that 'protrudes' outward from a surface on this device.
post #84 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by backstab View Post

Whether a 'click' is registered without a fingerprint or not, it's still a 'little' troubling that a component that is so critically important will be the one and only element that 'protrudes' outward from a surface on this device.

... if the rumor is even true in the first place. 1hmm.gif
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post #85 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by netrox View Post

kdarling, "That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked."

I have the feeling that if you accidently click the button that does not detect a fingerprint, it will do nothing.

I use iPhone wearing latex examination gloves. It works well in the current version.

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post #86 of 198
Yet another guess from an analyst presented as fact. In reality, analysts are no better than carnival fortune tellers. They're just not as accurate nor as entertaining.
post #87 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don108 View Post

Yet another guess from an analyst presented as fact. In reality, analysts are no better than carnival fortune tellers. They're just not as accurate nor as entertaining.

There's nothing wrong with using the knowledge you're gathered to come up with a projection of what's to come. It's done all the time, even by "random internet guys" like us. The problem lies with sites like AI and others grabbing hold of hand-picked "analyst opinions" and expounding on them as more or less factual, or plainly silly if it suits the forum/blog target audience more.
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post #88 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

They probably have bigger problems than worrying about any phone.

Remember what Steve Jobs said under the keynote for the presentation for the iPhone, it uses the best input device in the world, and we all have them, we are born with them, 10 of them, our fingers. Apple makes devices for the masses, not for people with no hands.

Apple seems to me to think quite a bit about accessibility options for handicapped people. I believe Stevie Wonder uses an iPhone.

If a person with no arms can use an iPhone with a pointing device (as op stated) then I bet they will be able to with the new iPhone.
post #89 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I use iPhone wearing latex examination gloves. It works well in the current version.

I generally like to employ restraint but your post is just killing me. 1tongue.gif:D
post #90 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

. . . Besides, whether or not the home button is deactivated wont affect whether the physical mechanism can be depressed -- and that's the primary fail of my iPhone 4; the home button is "sticky" not reliably functioning the way it's supposed to (after a year), and that I have read is directly attributable to an underspeced part unable to withstand the constant use. . .

My iPad one home button is fine after three years, iPhone 4S after two years. It's a very high-quality swtch.

Maybe you're allowing it to get dirty underneath (I would try contact cleaner spray with the button depressed, holding the device face down), or maybe you're pressing too hard (no cure except be mindful on your next device).
post #91 of 198

If it really is convex, I bet we're talking only VERY slightly. Like almost imperceptibly. 

It's not going to be like a Playstation button.

post #92 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I use iPhone wearing latex examination gloves. It works well in the current version.

I generally like to employ restraint but your post is just killing me. 1tongue.gif:D

Sorry I should have elaborated. For medical instrument manufacturing. Just saying I don't imagine the new button will require a fingerprint.

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post #93 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

I believe Stevie Wonder uses an iPhone.

He does. I saw an interview him saying that. I think it actually was during that 'Live At Last' concert DVD, even.
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post #94 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

I believe Stevie Wonder uses an iPhone.

He does. I saw an interview him saying that. I think it actually was during that 'Live At Last' concert DVD, even.

I heard from a blind friend of mine that the iPhone is very highly regarded by the blind people he knows and that is quite a few because his business is related to providing job opportunities for blind individuals.

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post #95 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

They probably have bigger problems than worrying about any phone....Apple makes devices for the masses, not for people with no hands.
Unlike yourself, Apple is probably more concerned with their public image in not ignoring those physically disabled persons.

Jobs did not say anything I didn't say ... currently the iPhone can be used with pointing devices for those without fingers, hands or arms. He didnt say anything about requiring fingerprints to use it. And no, I wouldn't assume they have bigger problems than being able to use a smart phone. Some of them could probably give you a run for your money in tasks you routinely use your hands and fingers for that you take for granted.

Here's a headline for you: Carpenter loses his hands in accident because his iPhone would not activate without a live fingerprint.

But forget amputees, what a pain it would be if I had to take off my gloves every time I needed to access my phone. They have gloves now that do not have to be removed to use touch screens. But there's no way around fingerprints.
post #96 of 198
As @Netrox pointed out, a convex home button with fingerprint sensing capabilities wouldn't be triggered by anything except a finger. No need for special "pocket detection" capabilities. It work when your finger pressed it and not otherwise.
The article did a good job of explaining the technical reasons necessitating a convex button and no one has a better prediction record than Mr. Kuo. We'll know on September 10, but sounds legit to me.
post #97 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

But forget amputees, what a pain it would be if I had to take off my gloves every time I needed to access my phone. They have gloves now that do not have to be removed to use touch screens. But there's no way around fingerprints.

Especially just to see the time. There is no reason to authenticate to see the time. The idea that the home button will require a fingerprint is ridiculous. Besides as it is now I can press the home button with any finger or thumb of either hand using either a flat finger or the finger tip. To require an exact procedure with a dedicated finger just to see the time is absurd.

 

Normally I keep my iPhone in my left front pocket and to see the time I use my left thumb. If I am actually using the device I hold the phone in my left hand and press the home button with my right forefinger.


Edited by mstone - 8/11/13 at 9:38am

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post #98 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor David View Post

Apple seems to me to think quite a bit about accessibility options for handicapped people. I believe Stevie Wonder uses an iPhone.

If a person with no arms can use an iPhone with a pointing device (as op stated) then I bet they will be able to with the new iPhone.

Yes, I am aware that many blind people love iOS, and Stevie Wonder even praised Steve Jobs and the iPhone/iPad back in 2011 for being so accessible.
post #99 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post


But forget amputees, what a pain it would be if I had to take off my gloves every time I needed to access my phone. They have gloves now that do not have to be removed to use touch screens. But there's no way around fingerprints.

If fingerprint authentication is too big of a hassle for certain people, or for people who don't want to take their gloves off, then I guess that they can just do without it, if Apple allows that option.

I for one, welcome the increased security, and I'll be using it all of time, gloves or no gloves.
post #100 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


... if the rumor is even true in the first place. 1hmm.gif

 

Yeah.  I finally found the source quote and the analyst is basically just guessing.   

 

(first quote in article)

 

- he has heard the same rumours as everyone else that they are using sapphire

- he assumes that the fingerprint sensor button will need to be thicker to contain the electronics

- which leads him to speculate on the convex part, because it would cover off and explain his first two assumptions. 

 

So basically the whole thread here is worthless because he doesn't actually have any real information on the convex part

 

Obviously, the sapphire might be for another button or turn out to be a false rumour. If it is for the home button, it may not need to be thicker at all.  

If either one of those is true … boom.  

 

No need for a convex button.  


Edited by Gazoobee - 8/11/13 at 11:36am
post #101 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Sorry I should have elaborated. For medical instrument manufacturing. Just saying I don't imagine the new button will require a fingerprint.

I actually thought it was something like that. From your posts I know you've been in the tech field for a long time. Also, I like hearing your opinions so, you know, keep sayin stuff.
post #102 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I heard from a blind friend of mine that the iPhone is very highly regarded by the blind people he knows and that is quite a few because his business is related to providing job opportunities for blind individuals.

 

The iPhone is pretty much the first and only smartphone that can be effectively used by a blind person.  This is partly why the Home button will always be a physical button.

 

While Apple has been failing a bit on accessibility issues with recent models (the three finger tap to zoom hasn't worked since iPhone 4 for instance), the iPhone was designed from the start to be accessible to all kinds of different people.  They aren't likely to throw all that good work out the window.  

 

Any fingerprint sensor will of course be optional in it's use and anyone who doesn't think so is just a fool who hasn't done their research. 

post #103 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Second, if fingerprint data is being transmitted to Apple, then yes (at the moment) Apple may well be forced to share that data with the government, no warranty necessarily required. But there's no obvious reason the fingerprint needs to be transmitted at all (your 4-digit lock code isn't, for instance) and Apple is very good about stating what data they receive. If Apple were to collect fingerprint data for no reason and without telling people, it would be only a matter of time before someone intercepted that data and told the world how to do so: in short, Apple would be caught in the act.

The US has been requiring biometric features in passports for every foreigner entering the US (in addition they also take the finger prints of every foreigner entering the US, at every entry, every time and they store those fingerprints). This meant that all governments worldwide had to take fingerprints from everybody wanting a passport. Of course, you don't have to get a passport but then almost everybody I know in Europe has one. And some countries might offer to issue a passport variant without biometrics (that won't allow you to enter the US with, and probably other countries as well) but most countries don't want to bother with having several passport categories. 

 

Of course, technically the government could delete its record of your fingerprints after it has embedded them in your passport. But then they say, if we store it, you don't have give a new fingerprint sample when you want to renew it. In Germany, where its town or city that hands out the passports, the compromise was that the fingerprints are only stored locally and that law enforcement thus could not search by fingerprint nationwide but that local authorities would only hand out a fingerprint for explicitly named people (so, I'm 100% sure I remember the details correctly).

post #104 of 198
The fingerprint sensor is in the display, not the home button. Check Apple's patent filings.
post #105 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Whatever this is it had better work perfectly out of the box. Apple has boxed itself into a corner by not releasing any new products in something like 9 months. 

MacBook Airs are not new products?

post #106 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post


Yes, and that's why requiring a fingerprint to activate it won't work. If I can't get to my phone and need some information from it, no one else would be able to access it -- which won't happen.

It probably be an either or. Either your fingerprint or your 4-digit code (or a longer code).

post #107 of 198

In other news Samsung is developing a much more secure authentication feature. They will build a DNA sequencer into the screens of their Galaxy phones whereby the user spits on the screen to unlock it. This technique is particularly well suit to their user base who tend to drool a lot anyway. /s lol.gif

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post #108 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by grblade View Post

The fingerprint sensor is in the display, not the home button. Check Apple's patent filings.

 

That would make perfect sense. So many more gestures would open up for both OS and app developers.

Also, integrating the sensor into the Home button will make the road to a zero bezel way longer than I anticipated. :(

post #109 of 198
Originally Posted by netrox View Post

kdarling, "That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked."

I have the feeling that if you accidently click the button that does not detect a fingerprint, it will do nothing.

 

Makes sense to me.  No finger, no click.

 

Part of the thinking behind the current concave home button is to prevent accidental clicking, sure.

But it's also concave to prevent scratching, because the current button is plastic.

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post #110 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdefender View Post

I don't think convex would work. Maybe a flat home button would.

 


The button doesn't have to 'stick out' of the surface at all... A square is a convex shape, so it could indeed be a perfectly flat button.

post #111 of 198

It looks like iPhones are going to be very popular with law enforcement.

post #112 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterMuusers View Post



The button doesn't have to 'stick out' of the surface at all... A square is a convex shape, so it could indeed be a perfectly flat button.

A square is a convex shape? A perfectly flat button can be convex?

You need to take a geometry class.
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post #113 of 198
Originally Posted by jason98 View Post

> Originally Posted by grblade View Post
>
> The fingerprint sensor is in the display, not the home button. Check Apple's patent filings.

 

That would make perfect sense. So many more gestures would open up for both OS and app developers.

Also, integrating the sensor into the Home button will make the road to a zero bezel way longer than I anticipated. :(

 

Makes more sense to me than a convex sapphire home button fingerprint sensor.

The bigger the "fingerprint picture" is, the more accurate the sensor will be.

But, if the spy shots of the front panel aren't fake, the home button isn't getting any bigger.

And embedding the sensor in-screen could give it that bigger picture.

 

Apple Insider post with shots of "5S" front panel: http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/08/06/comparison-pics-show-apples-slight-changes-in-alleged-iphone-5s-front-panel

 

On the other hand, the AuthenTec sensor doesn't just see the dead skin layer on the surface.

It sees the living skin layer underneath, which may or may not have higher granularity than the "fingerprint."

So maybe the AuthenTec technology only needs a small home-button-sized window.

 

Another thing to factor in: building a fingerprint sensor into part or all of the iPhone's touchscreen surface

would probably make it more expensive than keeping it on a discrete button.  Unless Apple has 

discovered some novel LCD panel production technique that keeps the cost down.  But wouldn't the

in-screen sensor require another connector or more leads in the existing connector?  Not seeing that

in the spy photos (which of course could be faked.)

 

 

We won't really know until there are spy shots of the new home button and/or the actual announcement.

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post #114 of 198

Why the hell is this headline written as an absolute fact? "Likely", and "rumors" are not the same as fact. 

post #115 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by KDarling View Post

Anything's possible, I guess, but this rumor wouldn't seem to work well with current Authentec sensors.

 

A covering for capacitive or RF is usally only a few microns thick.   Can sapphire slices be made that thin?  Wouldn't carving out a convex version be extremely wasteful, too?

 

Not to mention that convex sounds like a terrible idea in one's pocket.  A button sticking out is going to get clicked all the time.  That was the whole idea behind the current concave design... to not easily be accidentally clicked.

 

Also, the home button isn't big enough for a whole-finger scanner, so you'd need to swipe, and a raised button sounds like it would easily get clicked.

 

I just don't see this whole idea of a scanner in the Home button anyway.  Next to it would make more sense.  Unless the whole idea is that waking up the phone by punching the Home button, fully authenticates the user for the entire time that the phone remains awake.

 

KDarling, you should definitely send Apple an email with your concerns, which took you a few seconds of think of. No doubt over the years and months of developing implementing, and testing this technology, that they certainly did not think of or test any of these fundamental concepts on a device that will sell in the hundreds of millions. Almost every single major decision that Apple has ever taken was defined as a "terrible idea" by armchair CEOs everywhere- after which these decisions and concepts became massive successes with none of the issue that people concerned-trolled about. One would think you would have a bit more humility than having absolute confidence that all these things are "terrible ideas", without having a second of hands-on knowledge about any of them, and knowing that Apple has spent thousands of hours of testing.  

post #116 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

No doubt over the years and months of developing implementing, and testing this technology, that they certainly did not think of or test any of these fundamental concepts on a device that will sell in the hundreds of millions.

 

This mistake keeps happening in this thread.  Apple has not spent "years and months of developing implementing and testing this technology", that was AuthenTec.  Apple recently purchased them and are implementing their work.

post #117 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

This mistake keeps happening in this thread.  Apple has not spent "years and months of developing implementing and testing this technology", that was AuthenTec.  Apple recently purchased them and are implementing their work.

What's your point? (Other than to try to put Apple down as you do in virtually every one of your posts, of course)

Apple bought Authentec a year ago. They have clearly had something to do with the product. Furthermore, even if they had never bought Authentec, that doesn't mean that they didn't test the technology before using it. THAT is the entire point that Slurpy was making. Apple doesn't release half-baked ideas - they test their products very thoroughly and poor design mistakes are quite rare. They certainly know what they're doing more than some random Apple-hater on AI.
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post #118 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


What's your point? (Other than to try to put Apple down as you do in virtually every one of your posts, of course)

Apple bought Authentec a year ago. They have clearly had something to do with the product. Furthermore, even if they had never bought Authentec, that doesn't mean that they didn't test the technology before using it. THAT is the entire point that Slurpy was making. Apple doesn't release half-baked ideas - they test their products very thoroughly and poor design mistakes are quite rare. They certainly know what they're doing more than some random Apple-hater on AI.

 

I'm not putting down Apple at all.  There's nothing wrong with buying a company and integrating their technology into your own.  In fact, it's smart business.  You seem to be looking for an argument where there isn't one.

post #119 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

The US has been requiring biometric features in passports for every foreigner entering the US (in addition they also take the finger prints of every foreigner entering the US, at every entry, every time and they store those fingerprints). ...

 

Sorry, but this isn't true at all.  I know lots of folks that go to the states all the time and they don't get fingerprinted at the border.  

Also, very few other countries (including most "western" countries) have biometric passports of any kind.  

You are saying that those people don't get in at all?  The implication from your statement is that the US is closed except to the "foreigners" of two or three nations, worldwide. 

post #120 of 198
Originally Posted by Waikobloa View Post
How much is the sapphire going to be worth?

 

It's not an actual sapphire…

 

Originally Posted by cwoloszynski View Post
Please enlighten us.... I don't see the fail.

 

You will when an app locks up and you can't get out of it. Ever.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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