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Larry Ellison sees dismal future for Apple without Steve Jobs - Page 2

post #41 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post


NeXT did set the world on fire. Where shall we start?
e.g. with the fact that all Mac and iOS devices are running NeXTstep and NeXT APIs and are programmed with NeXT tools (sure iterative improvements, sometimes good things nuked, etc.)
e.g. java being a direct result of the OO frenzy and panic all the other companies had after they saw what NeXT can do (while bad mouthing NeXT at the same time and still getting it wrong be betting on junk like C++)?
e.g. the Win95/windows classic UI visuals (but not the intuitive feel) directly lifted from NeXTstep?
e.g. the WWW being invented on a NeXT with TBL explicitly stating that w/o NeXTstep he would never have attempted that project because with regular tools it would have been too complex for his taste?
e.g. DSP capabilities standard on board? Today all mainstream CPUs have DSP/vector processing instruction set extensions.
etc. etc.

A device or software platform doesn't have to be a money maker to be disruptive.
NeXT failed due to the user-software chicken-egg problem, thus didn't have enough critical mass.
The same stuff, half castrated and less consistent with the same guy at the helm is a runaway success today simply because people were naive enough to fall for the Mac OS moniker when in fact what they are getting is NeXTstep with various levels of legacy Mac compatibility.
What people think of as Apple's modern software for the most part is 25 yo software somewhat updated and optimized for better hardware, and that NeXT stuff was based on concepts more than 10 years old before NeXT picked them up.
So really, what Apple does is deliver the ideas and concepts from about 35-40 years ago, made consumer friendly by modern hardware.

Difficult to make statements about a history one doesn't know...

 

We at NeXT were very pissed off at Isaacson's Biography of Steve. He dicked over NeXT and PIXAR as if they were brief interludes. Without NeXT Apple is history.

post #42 of 192
As has been mentioned before, Jobs created a wonderful team, and environment, and ethos at Apple. There's massive talent there, inside a company almost uniquely positioned to execute well. It's a question of morale and cohesion as much as anything else. If the talent stays and continues to work its guts out... great things will continue to come out of Apple. None of us knows whether it will happen. We very much hope that it will. Ellison is a smart guy with an opinion. I hope he's wrong. Don't hate on the man, though. Just register his opinion and hope it ends up being wrong.

And if he ends up bring right, I hope someone else comes along with a wonderful innovative spirit. What I see right now is one company that's innovated, a couple of others who copied slavishly and added nothing to the tech landscape, and a few others that noodled around without any clear vision except "My boss told me to do something different, so I did."
post #43 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

We saw Apple toss out Steve Jobs and go down the crapper. We are now seeing Steve Jobs create an infrastructure of culture reflecting his ideals for Apple that took 13 years to build before he passed on.

The talent at Apple from vision to raw technical merit dwarfs anything Larry ever experienced at Oracle or prior to Oracle working for a company developing film for NASA. The culture permanent.

Steve made sure of it.

I was waiting for you to weigh in on the matter (post #37). Your opinion is much more valued, to me, than Larry Ellison's. Since Steve and he were such friends, I think his opinion is more biased than yours.

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post #44 of 192

Apple envy.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #45 of 192
Quote:
"So really, what Apple does is deliver the ideas and concepts from about 35-40 years ago, made consumer friendly by modern hardware."

 

Maybe you just made a poor choice of words but 'ideas and concepts' are great only to a point.  They don't add real value to the world until they can be delivered in a practical manner.  Execution matters more.  Apple is really damn good at execution; they bring good ideas to life and they do it with great integrity and craftsmanship.  Oracle is basically the opposite.  Their craftsmanship is almost non-existent, except perhaps in their core DB product.  They excel, however, at buying existing product and making it worse.  Actually what they excel at is selling and extracting large maintenance fees.   

post #46 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Yeah and he just dreamed up the iMac one night which just happened to look exactly like what Apple was already prototyping in its design lab.

Can you expound on this? First I heard Apple was already far along in the design process of the iMac before SJ.
post #47 of 192
2008 Fortune Magazine Article

"Tim cook arrived at Apple in 1998 from Compaq Computer. He was a 16-year computer-industry veteran - he'd worked for IBM (IBM, Fortune 500) for 12 of those years - with a mandate to clean up the atrocious state of Apple's manufacturing, distribution, and supply apparatus. One day back then, he convened a meeting with his team, and the discussion turned to a particular problem in Asia.

"This is really bad," Cook told the group. "Someone should be in China driving this." Thirty minutes into that meeting Cook looked at Sabih Khan, a key operations executive, and abruptly asked, without a trace of emotion, "Why are you still here?" "

There's enough Steve in there for me.
post #48 of 192
Hmm so the last 18 months or so didn't happen. Or does Larry thinks that Steve mapped out a good five yrs of everything that would happen at Apple (including lawsuits?) before he retired so we are still in the age of 'with Steve'

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post #49 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrodriguez View Post


What has Tim Cook done?
How about recognize that he's not a tech designing guy and to leave that to those that are. Recognizing your limits is something to be applauded for

And the iPad mini might still be a tablet but if Tim has the cajones to disagree with Steve's apparent decision that a smaller iPad would be bunk! I'd said Tim still gets a few points
Edited by charlituna - 8/12/13 at 9:04pm

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post #50 of 192

I think he has a point. But Apple's current exec team doesn't have Sculley. As long as they keep trusting their product Visionaries they should be fine

post #51 of 192
All these guys bitching about apple like sharks in the sea! Jobs is laughing I'm sure before he died he gave ideas. You know I remember the old then return and the dead. Back them no one gave a shiza. What we now need is mac pc! I mean iOS and mac in every ones home!
post #52 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feynman View Post

Just because Jobs is no longer with us, he did instill spirit and character. People who worked closely with him know he would operate. Not that Jobs wanted that but, the DNA has been embedded into the longevity of the company.

 

 

True, but the first thing that changed after Jobs dies, was Apple catering to Wall Street. Jobs was opposed to a dividend. Wall Street started crying, and Apple caved. Jobs could have care less about Wall Street. 

 

Further, Jobs handled the media much better. Jobs would not have rushed out an apology after the maps release. With that said, Apple has done some things better since Jobs left. 

post #53 of 192

I think Apple is in a much better position now than when Jobs left Apple back in the 80's.  First, they have a rock solid line of products and mechanisms in place to improve their existing products, they aren't facing having to re-write the OS, they aren't facing a LOT of obstacles that they had back in the 80's.   they also have more money than anyone else, so they can invest in things when they need to and not worry about money all of the time.

 

Also, not to be a Dick, but Steve Jobs didn't know the Enterprise Market.  Apple has been doing better and still needs a ways to go, but they are getting their products more Enterprise friendly than they had in the past with Jobs.

 

I'm sure Ellison would love to be the CEO of Apple and he might actually make a decent one.  But he'd have to change his attitude a little.

 

I've always thought combining Oracle/Sun/Apple would be a pretty interesting combination.

 

But for now, Ellison isn't running Apple, so we only have to listen to him every once in a while when he opens his mouth, which isn't that often.

post #54 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurfman View Post


Can you expound on this? First I heard Apple was already far along in the design process of the iMac before SJ.

 

 

Apple was not far ahead in the design process of the iMac when Jobs returned. What happened when Jobs came back is he called a meeting with department heads and asked them to present to him what they were working on and to  justify the departments various projects. He wanted to clean house. Ive brought various projects along to the meeting, amongst them a rough concept which the iMac eventually sprung out of. Apple was not developing the original iMac before Jobs. Ive, however, had been playing with ideas that after Jobs return was more fully developed into the iMac. Jobs talent was being able to focus. He called that meeting because Apple was working on a million projects, many of which were going nowhere. He wanted to kill things that were not essential to Apple's survival. 

post #55 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobM View Post

Blame it on IGZO

 

IGZO will solve everything. I said EVERYTHING.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #56 of 192
What about all the companies who never had a Steve Jobs?

Have they been doomed this whole time?
post #57 of 192
Seriously, why do these people think they can see the future so clearly. Somebody could come along that has the skills that Steve Job had. I can't believe he was that unique as a human. I know its just one man's opinion, but Ellison really is being rather arrogant to pointedly say the company will fail without Steve Jobs. The future is just too uncertain to be saying things like that. Apple may not be the same type of company it was under Steve Jobs but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Maybe not as great, but certainly not bad.
post #58 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

 

Apple was not far ahead in the design process of the iMac when Jobs returned. What happened when Jobs came back is he called a meeting with department heads and asked them to present to him what they were working on and to  justify the departments various projects. He wanted to clean house. Ive brought various projects along to the meeting, amongst them a rough concept which the iMac eventually sprung out of. Apple was not developing the original iMac before Jobs. Ive, however, had been playing with ideas that after Jobs return was more fully developed into the iMac. Jobs talent was being able to focus. He called that meeting because Apple was working on a million projects, many of which were going nowhere. He wanted to kill things that were not essential to Apple's survival. 

When the original Mac was announced, I actually thought of what the first Mac SHOULD have been and it's basically the iMac (just less RAM, HDD, no optical), but that was in the 80's. To me, it was obvious, that it should have had a 12 or 13 in color screen (obviously bigger if possible), it should have had built in ethernet instead of AppleTalk, it should have had a built in hard drive, more RAM and then they obviously should have had another desktop model with slots and storage which eventually became the MacII.  That's what I thought they SHOULD have done in the beginning.  I was looking at a design much like what Televideo had in some of their terminals rather than the first Mac.  I also thought they should have used Unix in the beginning.  When I was told Mac OS wasn't really Unix, but it was similar in a lot of ways, I immediately asked "why didn't they just use Unix?".

 

Kind of like the Televideo 990 terminal or something along those lines.  That's what I thought Apple SHOULD have done in the beginning. 


But, I never worked for Apple, so what I thought OBVIOUSLY didn't matter.  :-)

 

 

post #59 of 192

Jesus, you guys are getting pissy because Ellison believes that Jobs was the Edison of our generation and irreplaceable.  That dude has an ego the size of montana, built Oracle, is amusingly cutthroat competitive and he publically states this.

 

Jobs was not always successful, this is true.  But he always drove his products (whether movies or computers) toward greatness in a way that is unmatched by any CEO of his generation (and the next couple as well probably). 

 

The question you have to ask is whether the Apple under Cook and beyond intends to change the world or simply make awesome products.

post #60 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurfman View Post

Can you expound on this? First I heard Apple was already far along in the design process of the iMac before SJ.
Oops forgot my sarcasm tag. 1wink.gif

This book should be interesting (comes out in November).

159184617X.jpg
post #61 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

IGZO will solve everything. I said EVERYTHING.

1biggrin.gif:D
post #62 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


True, but the first thing that changed after Jobs dies, was Apple catering to Wall Street. Jobs was opposed to a dividend. Wall Street started crying, and Apple caved. Jobs could have care less about Wall Street. 

Further, Jobs handled the media much better. Jobs would not have rushed out an apology after the maps release. With that said, Apple has done some things better since Jobs left. 

Jobs may have been wrong about the dividend issue. It's a tiny speck of money so it's not hurting Apple and if it shuts up Wall Street a bit that's not a bad thing

Also he did have antenna gate.

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post #63 of 192

Larry Ellison and Oracle are far more like ambulance chasing lawyers than innovative thinkers.  Oracle is one of the scummiest companies on the planet.  The world would be a better place without Oracle.  It sickens me that Marc Benioff of Salesforce partnered with those worthless scum weasels.  Rot in hell Oracle.

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post #64 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Seriously, why do these people think they can see the future so clearly. Somebody could come along that has the skills that Steve Job had. I can't believe he was that unique as a human. I know its just one man's opinion, but Ellison really is being rather arrogant to pointedly say the company will fail without Steve Jobs. The future is just too uncertain to be saying things like that. Apple may not be the same type of company it was under Steve Jobs but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Maybe not as great, but certainly not bad.

Somebody could come along that has the same skills as Steve Jobs had....but it's highly unlikely. There are only a few people in any given century that stand out from the crowd. 50+ years from now and beyond, Steve Jobs will be known as the Edison/Ford/Picaso (all wrapped up in one) of our time.

 

It's the "all wrapped up in one" thing that made him so outstanding.....and, yes, that unique.

 

 

This doesn't mean Apple is doomed® without Steve Jobs.

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post #65 of 192
Is this guy for real? Beside being one of the best (if not THEE BEST) computer, tablet, cell phone and mp3 (player) makers in the world, Apple still stands as the bench mark standard for others to try to catch up too. Everything evaluated is always compared to how it stacks up to an Apple product.

Well now Tim Cook is at the helm, and speaking as one of the regular consumer-guys, this year I will be purchasing a new iPhone 5s and probably a MacBookPro Retina.

Apple products cost more, but you really getting a no compromise best of the best type of a product. You also get to talk to REAL PEOPLE if you insure a tech problem. As long as this business model does not change I'll never jump ship. I got very spoiled being a pampered customer.
post #66 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


Apple was not far ahead in the design process of the iMac when Jobs returned. What happened when Jobs came back is he called a meeting with department heads and asked them to present to him what they were working on and to  justify the departments various projects. He wanted to clean house. Ive brought various projects along to the meeting, amongst them a rough concept which the iMac eventually sprung out of. Apple was not developing the original iMac before Jobs. Ive, however, had been playing with ideas that after Jobs return was more fully developed into the iMac. Jobs talent was being able to focus. He called that meeting because Apple was working on a million projects, many of which were going nowhere. He wanted to kill things that were not essential to Apple's survival. 
Yes but my understanding is the basic shape/look of the iMac already existed. Probably one of the reasons Jobs kept Ive & his team. And lets face it one of the biggest selling features of the iMac was its unique design.
post #67 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

We at NeXT were very pissed off at Isaacson's Biography of Steve. He dicked over NeXT and PIXAR as if they were brief interludes. Without NeXT Apple is history.

 

Isn't it better covered in Alan Deutschman's biography, The Second Coming of Steve Jobs? That book focuses almost exclusively on the "wilderness years."

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post #68 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

This book should be interesting (comes out in November).

159184617X.jpg

 

Et tu, Kahney?

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post #69 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

 

We at NeXT were very pissed off at Isaacson's Biography of Steve. He dicked over NeXT and PIXAR as if they were brief interludes. Without NeXT Apple is history.

NeXT deserves the credit they are due.  They are like the Garfunkel of Steve Job's History, or perhaps the Ringo Starr in his Star.

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post #70 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Somebody could come along that has the same skills as Steve Jobs had....but it's highly unlikely. There are only a few people in any given century that stand out from the crowd. 50+ years from now and beyond, Steve Jobs will be known as the Edison/Ford/Picaso (all wrapped up in one) of our time.

 

What happened to all of you people who were talking about the someday triumphant return of Scott Forstall? Just wait: in ten years he'll come back to save the iPhone with skeuomorphisms and a retraction of Tim Cook's Maps apology. /s

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #71 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Hannah View Post

I wonder what apple does without Steve jobs there?

 

They just sit in a circle, holding hands, and cry, "now what'll we do???" /s

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post #72 of 192
Yup, because the situation now is EXACTLY the same as when Steve got ousted from Apple, right? EXACTLY.

What a moronic comment. The executives at Apple now are the ones who have worked on all of Apple's massive successes of the last 10 years. They understand the soul of what Apple is. There is absolutely nothing in common with what Apple is today with what it was when SJ got kicked out. We've seen that Apple can executive after SJ, they've had a string of massive successes after his death. Ellison pretends he cares about Apple and loved SJ, but all he's doing right now is shitting on his and his company, as he knows that his words will harm Apple because of his high profile, and will be repeated ad nauseum. As for Ellison himself, I've always seen him as a massive self-serving narcissist who loves to listen himself spout horseshit.
post #73 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Yup, because the situation now is EXACTLY the same as when Steve got ousted from Apple, right? EXACTLY.

What a moronic comment. The executives at Apple now are the ones who have worked on all of Apple's massive successes of the last 10 years. They understand the soul of what Apple is. There is absolutely nothing in common with what Apple is today with what it was when SJ got kicked out. We've seen that Apple can executive after SJ, they've had a string of massive successes after his death. Ellison pretends he cares about Apple and loved SJ, but all he's doing right now is shitting on his and his company, as he knows that his words will harm Apple because of his high profile, and will be repeated ad nauseum. As for Ellison himself, I've always seen him as a massive self-serving narcissist who loves to listen himself spout horseshit.

Well said.

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post #74 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by boriscleto View Post

Apple with Steve Jobs produced the Apple III, the Lisa, & the 128k Mac the first time around...

The 20th Anniversary Mac & G4 Cube after he came back...
Yeah, a good memory can be a real bitch. Thanks for the needed reminder.

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post #75 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

Et tu, Kahney?

:lol:  I'm interested in the book because Kahney says he got current and former employees to talk, and some of their recollections are different than what Apple PR and the wider media portrayed.

post #76 of 192
All the stuff about DNA being embedded, etc., is speculative. Apple is not the only company to have a well laid out succession plan, which is not guaranteed to work out. Anyone who insists that Ellison is wrong ignores a few important facts:

1. Nothing stands still. Everything either gets better or worse, or different. This is a different Apple. Better or worse? Remains to be seen.

2. Ellison knew Jobs very well, and he knows Apple as he was once its director. Sure, it has been over 10 years. But he also has more experience than everyone here in judging talent and companies.

3. Name all the companies that churns out industry-defining products under the leadership of an operations man. Not saying they don't exist. But they are rare.

4. Jobs is not the only leader who has left or will soon leave. Serlet, Mansfield, Forstall, Johnson are amongst the most notable names who have left either just before or after Jobs' passing, or will soon be leaving.

This is not to say Cook won't make Apple better (it definitely won't stay the same). But how can anyone dismiss the possibility that it could just as easily slide? If nothing else, no company stays on top forever. One thing is sure - Apple is not the same and will never be the same.

One final thought - it's plain wrong to say that Apple has got much superior engineering talent than other silicon valley companies. There are many, many engineers who have worked at two or more of Apple, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Cisco, etc. Jobs' greatest invention is Apple, particularly in how he coaxed the best work out of the same engineers who also did impressive work elsewhere, but without achieving the same outcome. The MTBF of this invention remains to be seen.
Edited by StruckPaper - 8/12/13 at 10:02pm
post #77 of 192

From the video preview of this interview, it was not clear if Ellison definitely predicted Doom for Apple without Steve! Ellison body language etc left enough of a doubt to suggest that Apple will fail without Steve, but it was not a definitive statement! 

 

I see such Interviews as a Coy, Cheap PR Stunt to draw attention, to make oneself more important, and, in that sense, Ellison succeeded! 

 

Also, there is Apples and Oranges element to his statement …  And here is what I mean by that:


When Steve was pushed out, it was a result of internal power struggles at Apple! To compare that FIRING to DEATH of a person is silly, at best! It's not like Steve Jobs chose to die on purpose to teach Apple a lesson! And now Ellison seems to be implying that Apple should have listened to Steve! Or maybe Ellison is implying that he should have been asked to become Apple's CEO? 

But then, how can Ellison have it both ways - saying that Steve Knew Best, and at the same time, Steve Jobs did NOT suggest Larry Ellison, but did specifically  ask for Tim Cook to be named Apple's CEO! 

 

I hope someone posts a Link to the Full Version of this Interview Online!

 

I do believe that plenty of Steve Thinking, Vibe, Ideas, Methodology, Spirit, etc did rub off on those who worked with him, and particularly on those who worked with him closest! To look to any One Person, like Johnny Ives, or Tim Cook, or somebody whom we haven't heard about YET, from within Apple, or elsewhere - and proclaim that One Person to be The Next Steve Job, The Savior of Apple - that's just too naive! But that is exactly that kind of stuff that attracts attention, and keeps the analysts and websites in the news, and thus surviving!  

 

Charlie Rose is one of the better people in media, but even he needs some controversy to attract viewers! 

 

Also, even if Steve was alive, he could not guarantee Total Success for all his products! Not all of his products were Mega Hits!

 

Hopefully, with The Next Big Hit from Apple, the pundits will give Apple a break for a while… Then others will try to clone that Big Hit as much as they can, with Patent Infringements, proven or not, and the Media will sing the same old song:

 

Apple Is Falling Behind On Innovation, It's Been Too Long since the last hit!!! They will probably invoke Steve Jobs' name again, cause it's an easy PR trick… 

 

The Crystal Ball Olympics never end… Analysts, Pundits etc all have their Crystal Balls, like everyone else! The loudest among them get the most attention! 

 


Edited by macologist - 8/12/13 at 10:07pm

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post #78 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post

All the stuff about DNA being embedded, etc., is speculative. Apple is not the only company to have a well laid out succession plan, which is not guaranteed to work out. Anyone who insists that Ellison is wrong ignores a few important facts:

1. Nothing stands still. Everything either gets better or worse, or different. This is a different Apple. Better or worse? Remains to be seen.

2. Ellison knew Jobs very well, and he knows Apple as he was once its director. Sure, it has been over 10 years. But he also has more experience than everyone here in judging talent and companies.

3. Name all the companies that churns out industry-defining products under the leadership of an operations man. Not saying they don't exist. But they are rare.

4. Jobs is not the only leader who has left or will soon leave. Serlet, Mansfield, Forstall, Johnson are amongst the most notable names who have left either just before or after Jobs' passing, or will soon be leaving.

This is not to say Cook won't make Apple better (it definitely won't stay the same). But how can anyone dismiss the possibility that it could just as easily slide? If nothing else, no company stays on top forever. One thing is sure - Apple is not the same and will never be the same.

One final thought - it's plain wrong to say that Apple has got much superior engineering talent than other silicon valley companies. There are many, many engineers who have worked at two or more of Apple, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Cisco, etc. Jobs' greatest invention is Apple, particularly in how he coaxed the best work out of the same engineers who also did impressive work elsewhere, but without achieving the same outcome. The MTBF of this invention remains to be seen.

They think that the VISIONARY aspects of Jobs is supposed to be passed down to Cook because he's the new CEO.  The thing is Cook has been running the day to day operations for years and who takes over the VISIONARY role?  From my perspective, it's been passed down to Jony Ive and the rest of the engineers.  Obviously, Jony is typically very shy at keynotes, he shows up, but for some reason he doesn't seem to give presentations, that's left up to now Craig, Phil, Eddy and maybe a few others, depending on what is being announced.

 

Jobs wasn't the ONLY person with all of the ideas, nor were all of his ideas the best route.  It takes a LOT of other people that for the most part are still there and they are a little clearer on the direction of Apple and I think they are in good hands for the most part. I think Apple's biggest problems is with their suppliers than it is internal.

 

Obviously, most of focus is and has been on mobile devices (laptops included), that's where most of the money is going in terms of development.  The traditional PC concept is still hanging around for some reason, but it's getting less focus since MOST people don't see the need in a traditional tower/desktop computer as much as they used to.

post #79 of 192

Well its up to Apple to prove him wrong isn't it, we can huff and puff, but wtf's the use?

post #80 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman View Post

Well its up to Apple to prove him wrong isn't it, we can huff and puff, but wtf's the use?

I know what you mean. Proof is in what they do from now on.  

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