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Haswell-based MacBook Pros expected to ship in September - report - Page 3

post #81 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level.
While I agree price is a big factor it isn't the only one as you point out below. The point is retina isn't a big enough positive to overcome the Mac Book Pros (retina) negative issues.
Quote:

They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there.
The high price of storage is a factor but the bigger issue is not enough storage no matter how much you are whiling to spend. The lack of a really huge internal storage option is strang in a machine marketed to Pros as some of those pros will use all the internal storage they can get access too.
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Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference.
The lack or storage is a problem equal or at times larger than the cost of that storage. That Apple of all companies would mis this issue so badly in a machine targeting pros is beyond belief. The machine is simply useless to many of the people that would be most interested in it due to no mass internal storage option. If you remember back before the retina model arrived one of the things I advocated was the producing the unit with multiple SSD slots. This would have went a very long way to giving that portion of the Pro market that needed it an option to increase internal storage.
Quote:
Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.

If it takes 2-3 year to get the price under control while meeting customer hardware expectations the retina MBP will be dead as a model. It is too limited for the vast needs of the "Pro" market and too expensive for the casual buyer. Pros need computers that work for them, that means a machine with features that not every Pro needs, but enough features to cover a broad market. Seriously it looks like Apple confused what was successful in the AIR market with what is needed in the Pro market.
post #82 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

If you want a continuation of the 17" MacBook Pro, buy a Razer Blade Pro. The 17" MacBook Pro was just the 15" MacBook Pro with a larger screen. While it should have more power, it never did have more power.

Apple got their ass handed to them with the retina MBP so I could see them bringing the 17" or something close to it back. Hopefully they will have realized some of their mistakes over the last few years that lead to its decline. Namely as you point out it being nothing more than a 15" MBP with a larger screen. A screen by the way that did not justify the price differential.

By the way I perfectly understand the demand issue for 17" class machines, that part of the market has thinned considerably in PC world too. The problem is that even though sales are limited a important part of your market needs the machine. It is like the old car/truck comparison, most pickups are half ton but the manufactures still supply the 3 ton and greater markets. Not because they expect to move a huge number of pickups of that size but because it is a need professionals have and as such goes to a companies credibility.
post #83 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

"Apple discontinued the 17" MacBook Pro and sales declined." The implication being that sales declined because of the discontinuation of the MacBook Pro and nothing else.

 

No, sorry. Just completely wrong.

Proove it.

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post #84 of 132
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
Proove it.

 

Sure thing. The iMac was not for sale that quarter.

 

Case closed.

post #85 of 132

Wow, if that's what qualifies for proof round here I could have won loads more arguments without even trying.

 

He observed something, you observed something else.  Both observations are true (I assume, cba to verify), neither are definitive.  Get over it, he was just blowing off some steam.

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post #86 of 132
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

He observed something

 

…incorrect…


…you observed something else.

 

That's right.


Both observations are true…

 

Can't be the case; The numbers dropping were not solely to do with the discontinuation of the 17" MacBook Pro. I feel like I've already said this and you ignored it then, too.

post #87 of 132
I did ignore it, because that's not what he said.

You're boring.

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post #88 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The high price of storage is a factor but the bigger issue is not enough storage no matter how much you are whiling to spend.

If they have a 1.5TB option for the Mac Pro, they should be able to offer it in the Macbook Pro too as they use the same PCIe storage form factor. I'd prefer that they were price competitive with leading 3rd party retailers on SSDs so that fewer people are put off by the lack of upgradeability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The machine is simply useless to many of the people that would be most interested in it due to no mass internal storage option.

It helps now that it has USB 3 as you can of course just put something like the 960GB Crucial M500 into a bus-powered enclosure for under $600:

http://forums.crucial.com/t5/Solid-State-Drives-SSD/New-Crucial-M500-960-in-External-USB-3-0-Drive-Case-Runs-Slow/td-p/128856

but it would be nicer having as much as 1.5TB internally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

it looks like Apple confused what was successful in the AIR market with what is needed in the Pro market.

SSDs were needed in the Pro model. You can't have the storage on the entry model over 10x faster than the Pro model. A supplementary 2.5" bay would have helped but it would have been empty for a lot of buyers. I've never liked mechanical hard drives and from now on would always opt for SSD where possible but the prices will still force the use of HDDs for a while and I prefer that they have been forced to be external because they slow down everything with their spin-up times.
post #89 of 132
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
I did ignore it, because that's not what he said.

 

No, it's exactly what he said, thanks.

post #90 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The numbers dropping were not solely to do with the discontinuation of the 17" MacBook Pro.

Comparing a period where the only difference was the lack of a 17" and no supply issues or lack of a Mac Pro such as Q3 2012 vs Q3 2011:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/07/24Apple-Reports-Third-Quarter-Results.html

that shows 4 million Macs in 2012 vs 3.95 million in 2011. So an increase in sales after they brought out the Retina laptops and dropped the 17". Even comparing quarters where the 2011 17" just came out, it was lower before they dropped it.

Their 10k filings break down laptops too between 2011 and 2012:

http://investor.apple.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-11-282113
http://investor.apple.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-12-444068

They sold 12.06m laptops in 2011 and 13.5m laptops in 2012 - more laptops sold without the 17". Their average selling price also stayed largely the same at $1272 so no migration down to lower models. People who wanted to spend at the same level of the 17" model must have either bought Retina models instead or the sales at that price point were so low that they didn't even register. The latter is a possibility because if they sold 50k units per quarter then the revenue would be ~$500m for the year out of $17b total. It's an amount easily absorbed by sales of the Retina models.
post #91 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

No, it's exactly what he said, thanks.

 

Clearly he's peeved that he can't get a 17" Macbook Pro any more.  An understandable position, even if not a common one.  He made an observation that Mac sales started dropping after the 17" MBP was canned, probably just a facetious poke, certainly not a serious proposition that ALL OF APPLE will fail because of it, or that it's the sole reason behind their sales drop.  And you respond with this gnarly little point that the iMac wasn't on sale for what, one quarter?

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post #92 of 132
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
He made an observation that Mac sales started dropping after the 17" MBP was canned

 

His implication is that sales dropped BECAUSE OF THE 17".


certainly not a serious proposition that ALL OF APPLE will fail because of it

 

Of course not, because that wasn't his implication at all.


that it's the sole reason behind their sales drop.

 

But this was.

post #93 of 132

He is pissed off that he could not purchase the 17 inch MBP any longer. That is the way the cookie crumbles.
 

post #94 of 132
Suppose Apple was making a 17" retina... they'd probably still wouldn't put in a discrete video card and thus people would be pissed off anyway.
post #95 of 132
Originally Posted by Winter View Post
Suppose Apple was making a 17" retina... they'd probably still wouldn't put in a discrete video card and thus people would be pissed off anyway.

 

Now THERE they'd need one.

post #96 of 132
Oh without question, though they would still probably put in a card that wouldn't be able to handle it if they did.
post #97 of 132
Originally Posted by Winter View Post
Oh without question, though they would still probably put in a card that wouldn't be able to handle it if they did.

 

Well, let's think. I guess we'd consider 1920x1200 the "base" resolution, so 3840x2400 would be retina, same as the 21.5" iMac. That doesn't sound infeasible for a modern mobile card.

post #98 of 132
If they used a 765M as with the Razer Blade Pro, then fine. Anything else would be a failure.
post #99 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

If they used a 765M as with the Razer Blade Pro, then fine. Anything else would be a failure.

http://www.clevo.com.tw/en/products/prodinfo_2.asp?productid=474

 

If this thing can do it?, that's why i asked the question earlier in the thread.

post #100 of 132

Apple's reputation is starting to change, two venture capitalists told us in April.

" More generally there is a
growing level of dissatisfaction among Apple executives and employees,
and a greater willingness to explore leaving," said one investor.

Another VC told us that his firm has recently seen a noticeable increase of resumes coming in from people at Apple.

After speaking with some of these job-seekers, this source says the
cause for the increase is two-fold: startups are paying more and "Apple
culture has started to change with the new leadership on top."

In March, top Apple reporter/analyst John Gruber of Daring Fireball said that retention has become "the single biggest problem that Apple faces, and almost nobody is talking about."

 

I've been saying this for a while. I think Cook is a disaster. You NEVER cede the high end. This is bean counter stupidity at its finest. They need someone to head up their "PRO" line because the notebooks they're making now do not deserve that designation.

post #101 of 132
Trajan Long - Do you think he will be worse than John Sculley? Do you see Schiller or Ive leaving because of decisions made by Cook?
post #102 of 132

 I don't know. This is a different era. The trend I see in their output, which the article on employee dissatisfaction is more evidence of, indicates a company in decline. Apple STILL has enormous resources and could turn it around, but the leadership must be there. As a long time Apple user, none of this gives me any pleasure. My 2 cents suggestions would be to hire new creative arts technical chief to support the audio visual pros and actually listen to what that important group needs. I would also suggest they get more bold and aggressive with innovating new products in general. I see the good enough bean counting philosophy clearly in the notebook and phone departments, because that's what l  use. As I'm working in Thailand at the moment I got a Samsung S4 for my Asian phone and it's pretty impressive. My Jan 2012 17 MBP,16gb ram, samung pro 512 gb, will just have to last for a while. Its a good unit, but i would love a higher spec'd upgrade.

post #103 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

Trajan Long - Do you think he will be worse than John Sculley? Do you see Schiller or Ive leaving because of decisions made by Cook?

Here's another recent article on the same subject. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/08/apple-ceo-tim-cooks-uninspiring-style-pushing-employees-away/68608/

 

and another http://mashable.com/2013/08/22/apple-employees-leaving/

 

Hardware engineers in particular have a morale problem. 

Cook is the opposite of an innovator. 

post #104 of 132
I call it then. Among those hardware engineers is the next Jobs or Wozniak or Zuckerberg. Cook is going to drive him away and he is going to form his own company and it will gain traction. How much? Who knows.

Maybe an accurate depiction of Cook is Bill Lumbergh from Office Space.
post #105 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan Long View Post

Apple's reputation is starting to change, two venture capitalists told us in April.
Deleted quote

I've been saying this for a while. I think Cook is a disaster. You NEVER cede the high end. This is bean counter stupidity at its finest. They need someone to head up their "PRO" line because the notebooks they're making now do not deserve that designation.
I have to say you really don't know what you are talking about. Throughout Apples history they have lost countless talented people, what is happening now is no different than what happened with the original Mac team. Think about it a bit even Woz left Apple. Woz is just a high profile personality countless others have left over the years to pursue their dreams.

As to what Cook is doing right now it is exactly what Apple needs to do. In effect they are trying to find a profitable formula to remain successful in a declining industry. If the high end isn't paying the bills so to speak you need to adjust it until it does.

That being said the big problem with the 17" MBP has always been that it is just a 15" with a larger screen. That in and of it self doomed it to declining sales. It can be argued that the real mistake is not trying to refactor the machine into something distinct from the 15" MBP. However at least they did something in killing the line instead of bleeding cash keeping it around.

In any event your attempt to blame Cook for a machine that has declined in sales over the years is a bit foolish. The 17" MBP obituary was written long before Cook had such influence at Apple.
post #106 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan Long View Post

 I don't know. This is a different era.
It certainly is and frankly Apple is positioning itself well for the new era.
Quote:
The trend I see in their output, which the article on employee dissatisfaction is more evidence of, indicates a company in decline. Apple STILL has enormous resources and could turn it around, but the leadership must be there.
Employee dissatisfaction means nothing. Every where I've ever been there are people dissatisfied with the business they are working for. Some people just can't be happy no matter what, others have goals they can't realize in a certain organization. In the end such survey measure nothing of value.
Quote:
As a long time Apple user, none of this gives me any pleasure. My 2 cents suggestions would be to hire new creative arts technical chief to support the audio visual pros and actually listen to what that important group needs.
The group isn't as important as you may think. In the end the only reason Mac hardware is in these sorts of businesses is because it is cheaper than buying dedicated hardware.
Quote:
I would also suggest they get more bold and aggressive with innovating new products in general. I see the good enough bean counting philosophy clearly in the notebook and phone departments, because that's what l  use.
This boggles the mind, have you not looked seriously at the Mac hardware line up lately. Mac Book AIR is highly innovative, bleeding edge technology really that few manufactures can even match. IMac, if that machine is your thing, can also be seen as leading the industry. Then we have the Mac Pro coming out soon which is highly innovative in so many respects it makes your statement above look silly. As to iPhone it redefined an industry and has bleeding edge hardware to support the software.

I've sen post like this before from others and have to wonder are you blind?
Quote:
As I'm working in Thailand at the moment I got a Samsung S4 for my Asian phone and it's pretty impressive. My Jan 2012 17 MBP,16gb ram, samung pro 512 gb, will just have to last for a while. Its a good unit, but i would love a higher spec'd upgrade.

Wouldn't we all! Your computer is only a year old, live with it a bit. What I'm saying here is that I understand wanting better performance, I'm one of those people that expects more from their computer than the run of the mill users. However I realize that Apple can't build beyond what its suppliers can offer. For example for this year all Haswell offers is significant power savings and a better GPU, even if Apple stuffed it into a new 17" machine it would offer you very little over that 2012 machine performance wise.

Your needs are understandable but they are not something a large company like Apple can dwell on. They need to offer machines that can be mass produced and sell well. Like it or not the 17" market is dying even in the Windows world, I've seen a number of people give the machines up as being too big to be practical. The format is likely to become a vehicle for niche players.
post #107 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

I call it then. Among those hardware engineers is the next Jobs or Wozniak or Zuckerberg. Cook is going to drive him away and he is going to form his own company and it will gain traction. How much? Who knows.

Maybe an accurate depiction of Cook is Bill Lumbergh from Office Space.

You can believe the bull shit reporting if you want but Apple has always had a stream of engineers leaving the company. By the way Steve wasn't an engineer in any shape or form and many of those engineers that left worked on some of his pet projects.

Here is the reality, change bothers people. If they see something different in the way of management they resist or run away or complain. The problem is change isn't always a bad thing, it is getting people to look beyond the past that is the problem. This can be seen in the reaction to the new Mac Pro where most complaints about the new approach simply haven't been justified by the reality of the hardware. It is resistance to change rather than rational thought that grabs people's minds.
post #108 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post



Here is the reality, change bothers people.

 

It's also possible that it was just time to move on, and the change was a catalyst. You mention pet projects, which brings me to the point that people could be worried about their roles in a company being made redundant. I'm not sure how much effort Apple makes to find new positions for such employees. It seems to vary from company to company.

post #109 of 132
I am so far gone about Jobs that I barely think about him anymore. This is about Cook. I watch him on stage and he bores me so think about anyone else. I wait for Jony Ive and Phil Schiller because they mention the stuff I care about.

He just mentions sales figures for cheap applause and mentions words that anyone could pick out of a thesaurus.
post #110 of 132

Your needs are understandable but they are not something a large company like Apple can dwell on. They need to offer machines that can be mass produced and sell well. Like it or not the 17" market is dying even in the Windows world, I've seen a number of people give the machines up as being too big to be practical. The format is likely to become a vehicle for niche players.

 

 

 

You obviously are not a PRO user. Its more than "niche". Its a very important segment of the computer business that drives innovation. The writing is on the wall.

Deny all you want, but these declining trends are evident. Bean counter versus innovation is an old quandary. Too much of either is not good. You think its fine for Apple to abandon this segment. I disagree. 

Time will tell. One thing I do know. The Pro segment of the market won't settle for inadequate solutions very long and they will find alternatives. It may be I have the last Apple notebook that can run Pro Tools, which requires a dedicated GPU, among other things. Thats a lot of users BTW.

As General Patton said so eloquently: Retreat, never, I don't want to capture the same real estate twice.


Edited by Trajan Long - 8/29/13 at 10:04pm
post #111 of 132

The video cards on the new Mac Pro cannot be upgraded at all I found out which is bad news.
 

post #112 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan Long View Post

It may be I have the last Apple notebook that can run Pro Tools, which requires a dedicated GPU, among other things. Thats a lot of users BTW.

The 15" Retina MBP can run Pro Tools. It has a dedicated GPU and it's even faster than the old 17". Intel Iris integrated will be faster than it too:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Pro-Graphics-5200.90965.0.html
http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-HD-6770M.43955.0.html

One big problem with the 17" is it's stuck with an old TN panel. Professionals need color accurate displays that have good viewing angles and don't shift colors when moving the display or viewing at a different angle. The old 17" is not suitable for this kind of high-end graphics work:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review/4



Only if it gets a Retina display update will it get a good enough display for good color reproduction.
post #113 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


The 15" Retina MBP can run Pro Tools. It has a dedicated GPU and it's even faster than the old 17". Intel Iris integrated will be faster than it too:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Pro-Graphics-5200.90965.0.html
http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-HD-6770M.43955.0.html

One big problem with the 17" is it's stuck with an old TN panel. Professionals need color accurate displays that have good viewing angles and don't shift colors when moving the display or viewing at a different angle. The old 17" is not suitable for this kind of high-end graphics work:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-review/4



Only if it gets a Retina display update will it get a good enough display for good color reproduction.

I'm sorry, Marvin, but Intel integrated graphics stink, IMHO.

post #114 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan Long View Post

I'm sorry, Marvin, but Intel integrated graphics stink, IMHO.

All of Apple's laptops currently use them, even the 17" when graphics switching is enabled. For demanding tasks, they have been terrible in every iteration in the past but the tests of the Iris Pro show them to be just as capable as the current dedicated graphics while drawing less power. They fall short relative to GPUs you get in the likes of Alienware:



but those aren't the kinds of laptops Apple builds and never have in their entire history. Those GPUs go into the iMac - they'd drain a battery far too quickly.
post #115 of 132
It'll be interesting to see what Apple puts in the iMac in the next few years and I hope they do not consider integrated to be good enough for the iMac. As it is, I don't feel 512 MB of memory in the current cards is acceptable and it should be at least a gig.
post #116 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan Long View Post

Your needs are understandable but they are not something a large company like Apple can dwell on. They need to offer machines that can be mass produced and sell well. Like it or not the 17" market is dying even in the Windows world, I've seen a number of people give the machines up as being too big to be practical. The format is likely to become a vehicle for niche players.




You obviously are not a PRO user. Its more than "niche". Its a very important segment of the computer business that drives innovation. The writing is on the wall.
I understand what you think you need for your business, nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying is that that business isn't as large as you think. If it was it would have justified the 17" MBP.

As for driving innovation, I really think that is BS. The AIRs have driven laptop innovation more than anything else at Apple. Further they sell really well.
Quote:
Deny all you want, but these declining trends are evident. Bean counter versus innovation is an old quandary. Too much of either is not good. You think its fine for Apple to abandon this segment. I disagree. 
You see this is where I think your perspective here is screwed up. Apple did not forget the segment the segment forgot about Apple. There is little reason to keep a machine on the market that doesn't sell well. This I believe was the problem with the 17" MBP.

Now we can discuss why it sold so poorly but that is really another thread altogether.
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Time will tell. One thing I do know. The Pro segment of the market won't settle for inadequate solutions very long and they will find alternatives.
They are free to do so. However screen size doesn't make a computer inadequate
Quote:
It may be I have the last Apple notebook that can run Pro Tools, which requires a dedicated GPU, among other things. Thats a lot of users BTW.
That is BS! The 15" comes with a GPU and runs Pro tools fine. Mavericks is bringing OpenCL acceleration to some Intel GPUs and in some cases OpenCL is extremely fast on Intels integrated GPUs. Much faster than the NVidia solutions.

If you have followed any of my posts over the years you will see that I'm a strong advocate for discrete GPUs. I advocate them mainly because they extend the life span of the machine and in the past that was the only way to get good OpenCL performance. Those days though are quickly becoming numbered. It is pretty simple really, if Intel Integrated GPUs can deliver better performance then it is foolish to pine for discrete GPUs.
Quote:
As General Patton said so eloquently: Retreat, never, I don't want to capture the same real estate twice.

Patton was full of good quotes!

The funny thing about this discussion is that Apple has never said that the 17" MBP is gone for good. In fact they have said little about it publicly. Apple could still have plans here. Personally I doubt it, but the little mention of it is interesting. In any event I'm convinced that such a machine can't be a 15" MBP with a bigger screen and be successful.

As for your needs have you written Apple or Cook specifically asking about a new 17" machine? In the end the only way Apple will know about demand is to hear about it.
post #117 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan Long View Post

I'm sorry, Marvin, but Intel integrated graphics stink, IMHO.

Nobody will argue that that has been the case in the past. However you can't make decisions based on the past. Seriously at one time Power PC was all the rage along with Alt-Vec. Nobody in their right mind would go back to the PPC days.

The point is you need to keep an open mind and evaluate each generation of GPUs on their own merits. An Intel Iris Pro chip maybe crap for your needs but you can't rightfully say so until hardware and software ship that leverages the chip.
post #118 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

It'll be interesting to see what Apple puts in the iMac in the next few years and I hope they do not consider integrated to be good enough for the iMac. As it is, I don't feel 512 MB of memory in the current cards is acceptable and it should be at least a gig.

Well that is something to speculate upon! I'm going to come down on the side of Iris Pro only. However Intel doesn't currently offer such a chip in a desktop version. So we are contingent upon an unreleased solution from Intel or Apple going back to mobile processors.

As for video RAM that will get real interesting as we move forward. If the GPU can access system memory then it effectively has access to all of the RAM in the system. I believe Apples new drivers provide at least some support for this heterogeneous access. That would turn the iMac into an interesting beast.

In the end the question of " is integrated graphics good enough for the iMac" is an open one. There are many specific points that have to be addressed.
post #119 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


Well that is something to speculate upon! I'm going to come down on the side of Iris Pro only. However Intel doesn't currently offer such a chip in a desktop version. So we are contingent upon an unreleased solution from Intel or Apple going back to mobile processors.

 

Well integrated graphics on the desktop are still primarily a cost cutting solution. You don't have the issue of battery life there. I've always suspected at some point people who use their notebooks in public will no longer have to locate power outlets for extended periods of use. Looking at the chips that incorporate iris pro graphics, it's unlikely that the cost savings is significant over some of the less expensive discrete chips. I can't say for sure as I haven't been able to locate a cost estimate for something like a 650m.

 

Quote:

As for video RAM that will get real interesting as we move forward. If the GPU can access system memory then it effectively has access to all of the RAM in the system. I believe Apples new drivers provide at least some support for this heterogeneous access. That would turn the iMac into an interesting beast.

In the end the question of " is integrated graphics good enough for the iMac" is an open one. There are many specific points that have to be addressed.


I remember intel some speculation that ram clock frequencies weren't quite there yet. That might explain the additional cache on some chips as opposed to a longer evolutionary path.

post #120 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

In the end the question of " is integrated graphics good enough for the iMac" is an open one. There are many specific points that have to be addressed.

I hope not unless the difference between integrated and the lower level discrete cards are so minimal that it defeats the purpose. The entry level iMac you can argue may have been sufficient at 512 MB for the 640M, the upper 21.5" and entry level 27" should have had BTO options to double their memory. I said this before and I'll say it again. No excuse by Apple not to do it.
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