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Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer calls it quits, to retire within a year - Page 6

post #201 of 315
Originally Posted by pmz View Post
Until they ditch Windows 8 scheme and Metro entirely, they are still hosed.

 

When's 8.1 supposed to come out, again? 1tongue.gif

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #202 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodbine View Post

Elop on the way up maybe......?

Not likely - he is next to go on the chopping block!
post #203 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman View Post

Ok, so what will work?

Stop trying to copy Apple's strategy and instead copy Apple's philosophy: Don't be afraid to burn everything you've built in exchange for a better future.

Microsoft is where it is today because they couldn't bring themselves to look beyond Windows. If they had stuck with the Courier concept then I'm pretty sure that the iPad would never have cornered the market.

Tech companies goes through the same life cycle: a shot at changing the world, huge profits, a series of hubris-charged management blunders and then a quiet, comfortable retirement milking existing products or selling services and consultancy.

The only companies that escape this fate are the ones with the courage to remake themselves.

All this talk about becoming a devices and services company is all very well, but what they really mean is that they want to become a Windows device and services company. They are already limiting themselves in order to hang on to a legacy.
Edited by Rayz - 8/23/13 at 10:49pm
post #204 of 315
Proctor & Gamble called. They want him back.
It is a fact that 63% of statistics are true 47% of the time. The rest are just made up on the spot.
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It is a fact that 63% of statistics are true 47% of the time. The rest are just made up on the spot.
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post #205 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

When's 8.1 supposed to come out, again? 1tongue.gif

Windows 7 is still available.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #206 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


Windows 7 is still available.

 

Don't anyone fool yourselves here.  It peaked at win 95.  Even Bill G. said so.
 

post #207 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

still work full time and there's no realistic alternative to MS Office in the workplace. Universities are different - I did a masters (part time) a few years ago and everyone just used whatever office suite they wanted and the academics didn't care. Perhaps Apple could make inroads there, if enough people share your evaluation (and not mine) of the product.

That is not true, iWorks can go mainstream in corporations were iPads are in big numbers.
post #208 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


I think those are great ads but they're really ads for a camera.  

If Apple can make a better camera for the iPhone (and you know they are working on it), then all of a sudden Nokia has nothing.  

Indeed. And MegaPixels don't count anymore. A larger aperture does, and if the f2.0 in the new phone is true, I'll be a happy camper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post

The Muse Does Call Upon These Times

Interesting is the story then
To tell if the reign of error do end.
So Steve, to a retirement home,
And there to chew upon a bone.

MS when he bids adieu,
Fifty-fifty say renew.
But many doubts some shall have,
That Stevie's lips might rest, at last.

Nice! Is this also yours?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

SpreadSheet Jockey?

LOL

Quote:
AFAICT, Only a few features are absent from the iCloud Beta and the iDevice apps... Things like Bezier Curves, Categories/Pivot Tables... I don't believe most people use these...

Don't forget charts:

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post #209 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

What are you talking about? Microsoft is the 3rd or 4th most valuable company in the world. They basically own the enterprise. Microsoft is FAR from being run in to the ground.

What people here refuse to accept s quite simple; Microsoft cannot go down. Not today, not in the next 10 years. And since no one seems to be able and/or willing to invest money and effort to build alternative ecosystem, you can just as well add couple of more decades to that. If Microsoft would really be on their way to oblivion, US and pretty much every other developed country would jump in with billions of dollars and ask if they can give more.

And the reason is really simple. Regardless of what people think of MS's consumer products, they are one of pillars of enterprise world, with large corporations and governments being their most loyal customers. In some occasion, replacing their products on that level - servers, services and applications - at worst would not be possible with existing alternatives, at best would be possible but not worth it - keeping MS afloat would be easier, regardless of price.

It is different in consumer segment, and I actually think MS should receive some good drubbing in years to come. Less dominant they find themselves in consumer desktop/laptop markets, more competitive they will be, and more willing to listen to customers.

But regardless, their future is quite safe. They are not trying to enter new (for them) markets because it is make-it-or-break-it for them, but because they basically have nowhere to grow in enterprise, and hardly anywhere in home segments. Even if apple would decide to retreat from PC market completely, what would Microsoft get? Extra 5% worldwide? Hardly front page worth material. Thus they are pushing into segments they have low presence. But opposite to Blackberries and Nokias of the world, it is not their last chance to survive. Maybe it is last chance to become relevant in those markets (though I'm doubtful about that as well), but even if they completely flop, their survival is pretty much given. And in a few years, something new will emerge and race will start again.

It is pity no one can really challenge MS on corporate level, and it is not so because no one can come out with good product for that market, but because of legacy nature of that segment. This, I cannot see to change any time soon.
post #210 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

That is not true, iWorks can go mainstream in corporations were iPads are in big numbers.

It can't. Every medium to large business already have gigabytes if not terabytes of existing documents, and many will send and receive documents to their partners, customers, associates, contractors. In corporate space, it is all about compatibility and legacy support.

Undeniably there are other scenarios, but most our customers who are using iPads are using them for non-document tasks - emails, calendar, other means of communication (Lync etc.). Some PDF viewing at best. Anything document-intensive is still locked to desktops and laptops. You should be able to RDS to terminal server and run document-editing application from there (depending on security rules for each site), but you still need Office on terminal server, and you still need to have enough Office licenses to cover for all users or devices.

Volume licensing is Microsoft's bread & butter for a reason.
post #211 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Stop trying to copy Apple's strategy and instead copy Apple's philosophy: Don't be afraid to burn everything you've built in exchange for a better future.

Microsoft is where it is today because they couldn't bring themselves to look beyond Windows. If they had stuck with the Courier concept then I'm pretty sure that the iPad would never have cornered the market.

Tech companies goes through the same life cycle: a shot at changing the world, huge profits, a series of hubris-charged management blunders and then a quiet, comfortable retirement milking existing products or selling services and consultancy.

The only companies that escape this fate are the ones with the courage to remake themselves.

All this talk about becoming a devices and services company is all very well, but what they really mean is that they want to become a Windows device and services company. They are already limiting themselves in order to hang on to a legacy.

Legacy is requirement of huge majority of MS customers, and most dependable ones as well. Legacy is also what prevents those customers to look elsewhere. It is Microsoft's lifeline, and their insurance. Cutting it off would be equivalent of shooting yourself in head and hoping that, instead of killing you, trauma will activate dormant part of your brain and give you special mental powers.

Nor do they have to cut it. No matter what they do, they will not gather much in servers/desktops/laptops markets. Microsoft does not care how much money OEM makes of each sold computer, because Microsoft makes money of windows (and Office) licensing, not of hardware sold. Even if every OEM is making expensive premium machines like Apple does, Microsoft would make same money. Probably less as people would replace their machines even less frequently.

But there are a lot of new possibilities for them, regardless of their legacy nature. Actually, because of them. Realistically, if you think about what smartphones and tablets have best potential to work flawlessly with Microsoft "legacy" - Exchange, SharePoint, Lync, AD? - I think most will agree that Microsoft tablets and smartphones are the ones. It is really not different from iPhone/iPad/iTunes/AppStore ecosystem, only on corporate instead of consumer level. I was told that latest Exchange server already has some nice management features for Windows Phone devices, and Windows 8 Pro tablets are completely applicable to corporate requirements in AD, group policies, management software and fundamental files and services compatibility. I think that especially Google is aware and worried with that potential, thus trying to slow down or stop those platforms growth by denying them (quality) access to their services like YouTube or Google Maps.
post #212 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

What people here refuse to accept s quite simple; Microsoft cannot go down. Not today, not in the next 10 years. And since no one seems to be able and/or willing to invest money and effort to build alternative ecosystem, you can just as well add couple of more decades to that. If Microsoft would really be on their way to oblivion, US and pretty much every other developed country would jump in with billions of dollars and ask if they can give more.

And the reason is really simple. Regardless of what people think of MS's consumer products, they are one of pillars of enterprise world, with large corporations and governments being their most loyal customers. In some occasion, replacing their products on that level - servers, services and applications - at worst would not be possible with existing alternatives, at best would be possible but not worth it - keeping MS afloat would be easier, regardless of price.

It is different in consumer segment, and I actually think MS should receive some good drubbing in years to come. Less dominant they find themselves in consumer desktop/laptop markets, more competitive they will be, and more willing to listen to customers.

But regardless, their future is quite safe. They are not trying to enter new (for them) markets because it is make-it-or-break-it for them, but because they basically have nowhere to grow in enterprise, and hardly anywhere in home segments. Even if apple would decide to retreat from PC market completely, what would Microsoft get? Extra 5% worldwide? Hardly front page worth material. Thus they are pushing into segments they have low presence. But opposite to Blackberries and Nokias of the world, it is not their last chance to survive. Maybe it is last chance to become relevant in those markets (though I'm doubtful about that as well), but even if they completely flop, their survival is pretty much given. And in a few years, something new will emerge and race will start again.

It is pity no one can really challenge MS on corporate level, and it is not so because no one can come out with good product for that market, but because of legacy nature of that segment. This, I cannot see to change any time soon.

Yup.

Microsoft is in no danger and they're still a highly profitable company.

As you said they aren't going anywhere and will remain a pretty large force in the market for decades to come.

Even with their open failures under Ballmer, during this time we've seen their most ingenious product yet. Office 365.

Now Microsoft will have a consistent cash cow that will keep their coffers full every month of the year.

With their strangle hold on corporations already in place I'm surprised no one else at Redmond thought of a subscription service model until now.

Microsofts profits are sure to go up with every corporation and government moving to the subscription based 365 service, so we'll see Microsoft around at least as a corporate player for decades to come.

But 365 will be good for iOS as well. Microsoft is bring 365 support to iOS devices so people no longer need to clamor for Microsoft to make a native office app.

IMO 365 for iOS also relegates iWork on iCloud to a consumer niche and not a business tool
post #213 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

It can't. Every medium to large business already have gigabytes if not terabytes of existing documents, and many will send and receive documents to their partners, customers, associates, contractors. In corporate space, it is all about compatibility and legacy support.

Undeniably there are other scenarios, but most our customers who are using iPads are using them for non-document tasks - emails, calendar, other means of communication (Lync etc.). Some PDF viewing at best. Anything document-intensive is still locked to desktops and laptops. You should be able to RDS to terminal server and run document-editing application from there (depending on security rules for each site), but you still need Office on terminal server, and you still need to have enough Office licenses to cover for all users or devices.

Volume licensing is Microsoft's bread & butter for a reason.

None of that disproves the statement that iWorks can catch on based on the success of the iPad.

While there are exceptions, iPads are generally used for content consumption more than content creation. And iWorks will read most of those gigabytes or terabytes of files you're talking about. More importantly, the vast majority of those files are not something that would likely be accessed remotely, anyway. If you're at a level in the organization (CFO, perhaps) where you need access to all that data, you're probably not going to be using an iPad for your remote access. iPads will generally be used by sales people, service people, support people, and so on - and they need a much more limited set of those documents. Since iWorks can read Word and Excel and PowerPoint documents, that will be more than sufficient for most people.

Of course, one could argue that if you're simply using iWorks to read and write in Office format that it doesn't have a major impact on the MS Office monopoly, but that's a different argument.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #214 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Stop trying to copy Apple's strategy and instead copy Apple's philosophy: Don't be afraid to burn everything you've built in exchange for a better future.

Microsoft is where it is today because they couldn't bring themselves to look beyond Windows. If they had stuck with the Courier concept then I'm pretty sure that the iPad would never have cornered the market.

Tech companies goes through the same life cycle: a shot at changing the world, huge profits, a series of hubris-charged management blunders and then a quiet, comfortable retirement milking existing products or selling services and consultancy.

The only companies that escape this fate are the ones with the courage to remake themselves.

All this talk about becoming a devices and services company is all very well, but what they really mean is that they want to become a Windows device and services company. They are already limiting themselves in order to hang on to a legacy.

You are 100% correct. Poor Microsoft had little choice though. There entire history relied upon using Apple as their R&D department, right up until OS X and iOS and they were simply left outside in the rain after that.
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post #215 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

None of that disproves the statement that iWorks can catch on based on the success of the iPad.

While there are exceptions, iPads are generally used for content consumption more than content creation. And iWorks will read most of those gigabytes or terabytes of files you're talking about. More importantly, the vast majority of those files are not something that would likely be accessed remotely, anyway. If you're at a level in the organization (CFO, perhaps) where you need access to all that data, you're probably not going to be using an iPad for your remote access. iPads will generally be used by sales people, service people, support people, and so on - and they need a much more limited set of those documents. Since iWorks can read Word and Excel and PowerPoint documents, that will be more than sufficient for most people.

Of course, one could argue that if you're simply using iWorks to read and write in Office format that it doesn't have a major impact on the MS Office monopoly, but that's a different argument.

I agree, people couldn't really care less what the application is called if it opens their legacy files and works well. Put that on vastly superior and more flexible hardware with mobile and cloud, all working seamlessly and you have a winner. Apple should consider a version of iWorks for pros as with Garage Band and Logic Pro.
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post #216 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


What people here refuse to accept s quite simple; Microsoft cannot go down.

 

"What people" would that be?

 

I read through this entire thing and I didn't see anyone refusing to accept that Microsoft cannot go down (for lack of a better term).

 

I give the board much more credit than that.

 

Microsoft will be around for a long time. Without a proper mobile strategy, though, in 10 years they will be 2/3 of what they are today and 1/2 in 20 years... maybe less.

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post #217 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

What people here refuse to accept s quite simple; Microsoft cannot go down. Not today, not in the next 10 years. And since no one seems to be able and/or willing to invest money and effort to build alternative ecosystem, you can just as well add couple of more decades to that. If Microsoft would really be on their way to oblivion, US and pretty much every other developed country would jump in with billions of dollars and ask if they can give more.

And the reason is really simple. Regardless of what people think of MS's consumer products, they are one of pillars of enterprise world, with large corporations and governments being their most loyal customers. In some occasion, replacing their products on that level - servers, services and applications - at worst would not be possible with existing alternatives, at best would be possible but not worth it - keeping MS afloat would be easier, regardless of price.

It is different in consumer segment, and I actually think MS should receive some good drubbing in years to come. Less dominant they find themselves in consumer desktop/laptop markets, more competitive they will be, and more willing to listen to customers.

But regardless, their future is quite safe. They are not trying to enter new (for them) markets because it is make-it-or-break-it for them, but because they basically have nowhere to grow in enterprise, and hardly anywhere in home segments. Even if apple would decide to retreat from PC market completely, what would Microsoft get? Extra 5% worldwide? Hardly front page worth material. Thus they are pushing into segments they have low presence. But opposite to Blackberries and Nokias of the world, it is not their last chance to survive. Maybe it is last chance to become relevant in those markets (though I'm doubtful about that as well), but even if they completely flop, their survival is pretty much given. And in a few years, something new will emerge and race will start again.

It is pity no one can really challenge MS on corporate level, and it is not so because no one can come out with good product for that market, but because of legacy nature of that segment. This, I cannot see to change any time soon.

I hate to disagree with such a well written and argued post but I think you vastly over estimate Microsofts staying power as well as, and probably more importantly, the speed things can change. It was seemingly only months ago (in fact years now) folks were arguing on this very forum about Apple entering the phone market … tectonic shifts have occurred since. They can occur any time and do so more often these days, especially in technology.

Entire countries can undergo vast changes in what seems like the blink of an eye, look at Germany in 1930's or Russia before that and more recently, South Africa, Eastern Europe and so on … the world economy can be tanked by one country's political decisions, just check out America 2001 - 2009.

To believe one company is somehow so solid, even without taking into account its drastic demise in so many ways over the last decade, is 'head in the sand' thinking. Microsoft can become TWA, Pan Am or Kodak faster than you can say Vista or Zune and it will, my guess 10 years or so.

p.s. I was a Nikon guy, now solidly Canon … no wonder we disagree … 1wink.gif
Edited by digitalclips - 8/24/13 at 7:40am
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post #218 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I hate to disagree with such a well written and argued post but I think you vastly over estimate Microsofts staying power as well as, and probably more importantly, the speed things can change. It was seemingly only months ago (in fact years now) folks were arguing on this very forum about Apple entering the phone market … tectonic shifts have occurred since. They can occur any time and do so more often these days, especially in technology.

Entire countries can undergo vast changes in what seems like the blink of an eye, look at Germany in 1930's or Russia before that and more recently, South Africa, Eastern Europe and so on … the world economy can be tanked by one country's political decisions, just check out America 2001 - 2009.

To believe one company is somehow so solid, even without taking into account its drastic demise in so many ways over the last decade, is 'head in the sand' thinking. Microsoft can become TWA, Pan Am or Kodak faster than you can say Vista or Zune and it will, my guess 10 years or so.

p.s. I was a Nikon guy, now solidly Canon … no wonder we disagree … 1wink.gif


Personally, I think Microsoft will become a company like IBM. A large company that is a shadow of its former self* but still relevant in the corporate world because of its services.

 

[ ... but Ballmer doesn't want Microsoft to be IBM... or Apple ]
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57599909-75/ballmer-microsoft-doesnt-want-to-be-ibm-or-apple/

 

* addendum - IBM is actually doing quite well... not a shadow of its former self at all. Maybe they will buy Microsoft in 10 years.  1cool.gif


Edited by island hermit - 8/24/13 at 8:05am
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post #219 of 315
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Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


Personally, I think Microsoft will become a company like IBM. A large company that is a shadow of its former self but still relevant in the corporate world because of its services.

I know that's seen as their only hope but several other companies have the same idea, even, Dell I think under one plan, HP maybe? I suspect that market is already well served and the sudden rush to escape their failures in the consumer market by these companies will be the beginning of the end for them as they fail to make the move and get caught in-between with no market.

IBM is one of a hell a company, really the Apple of the enterprise world, making hardware and software as well as bleeding edge supercomputers. Microsoft become like that? In this dimension? Really … 1biggrin.gif
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post #220 of 315
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Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I know that's seen as their only hope but several other companies have the same idea, even, Dell I think under one plan, HP maybe? I suspect that market is already well served and the sudden rush to escape their failures in the consumer market by these companies will be the beginning of the end for them as they fail to make the move and get caught in-between with no market.

IBM is one of a hell a company, really the Apple of the enterprise world, making hardware and software as well as bleeding edge supercomputers. Microsoft become like that? In this dimension? Really … 1biggrin.gif

 

I agree and made some revisions before I saw your reply.

 

... and Microsoft in their own way agrees with you as well. If you see the interview (link above), Microsoft wants to be all things to all people. A fools game that can only lead to confusion and failure, imo. Microsoft will end up chasing smoke.

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post #221 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post




* addendum - IBM is actually doing quite well... not a shadow of its former self at all. Maybe they will buy Microsoft in 10 years.  1cool.gif

nah, it will just be let go … Apple and IBM (and probably Google and Facebook) will have fight to share out the Microsoft patent portfolio … I can just image the posts on AI 1biggrin.gif
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post #222 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I agree and made some revisions before I saw your reply.

... and Microsoft in their own way agrees with you as well. If you see the interview (link above), Microsoft wants to be all things to all people. A fools game that can only lead to confusion and failure, imo. Microsoft will end up chasing smoke.

That interview is a great example of how to say absolutely nothing isn't it? It is a stark contrast to the laser focus you hear from Tim, even allowing for the 'we don't comment on ….' interjections. The difference between someone with zero idea what the hell to do and someone knowing exactly what he is doing with a long term plan well in place.
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post #223 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


I hate to disagree with such a well written and argued post but I think you vastly over estimate Microsofts staying power as well as, and probably more importantly, the speed things can change. It was seemingly only months ago (in fact years now) folks were arguing on this very forum about Apple entering the phone market … tectonic shifts have occurred since. They can occur any time and do so more often these days, especially in technology.

Entire countries can undergo vast changes in what seems like the blink of an eye, look at Germany in 1930's or Russia before that and more recently, South Africa, Eastern Europe and so on … the world economy can be tanked by one country's political decisions, just check out America 2001 - 2009.

To believe one company is somehow so solid, even without taking into account its drastic demise in so many ways over the last decade, is 'head in the sand' thinking. Microsoft can become TWA, Pan Am or Kodak faster than you can say Vista or Zune and it will, my guess 10 years or so.

p.s. I was a Nikon guy, now solidly Canon … no wonder we disagree … 1wink.gif



"Entire countries can undergo vast changes in what seems like the blink of an eye"

True. Within hours of this news, Microsoft gained $20b approx from 7% stock gain! Blink of eye indeed.

"Microsoft can become TWA, Pan Am or Kodak faster than you can say Vista or Zune and it will, my guess 10 years or so"

When he actually retires in next 12 months, Microsoft will gain another $40b or so!

It is actually hard for Microsoft to achieve oblivion! Somehow, they will keep bizarrely afloat while the world blinks around them.
post #224 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


That interview is a great example of how to say absolutely nothing isn't it? It is a stark contrast to the laser focus you hear from Tim, even allowing for the 'we don't comment on ….' interjections. The difference between someone with zero idea what the hell to do and someone knowing exactly what he is doing with a long term plan well in place.


Ballmer might as well have said,

 

"I kinda look at that and I say, well, I like our strategy. I like it a lot."

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post #225 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by abhitalks View Post

"Entire countries can undergo vast changes in what seems like the blink of an eye"

True. Within hours of this news, Microsoft gained $20b approx from 7% stock gain! Blink of eye indeed.

"Microsoft can become TWA, Pan Am or Kodak faster than you can say Vista or Zune and it will, my guess 10 years or so"

When he actually retires in next 12 months, Microsoft will gain another $40b or so!

It is actually hard for Microsoft to achieve oblivion! Somehow, they will keep bizarrely afloat while the world blinks around them.

The Ballmer Bounce is kind of funny when you think of the hit APPL took when Steve's illness was first disclosed. Like Steve's health eventually got factored in to the price, I am sure Ballmer's departure will be too, albeit inversely. Steve's tragic death had less impact on AAPL than his initial illness reports as it had been factored in as will Ballmer's leaving. Share price and performance don't go together as we see in AAPL so I wouldn't take the Ballmer Bounce as a sign for extrapolated growth.

Wall Street will want to see some pretty amazing results from the next in line to the Gates' seat and I seriously doubt there will be much to show in a few years and that Ballmer Bounce will be fondly remembered. If I owned MSFT I'd sell now and buy AAPL 1smile.gif
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #226 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


The Ballmer Bounce is kind of funny
...

If I owned MSFT I'd sell now and buy AAPL 1smile.gif

"The Ballmer Bounce" 1biggrin.gif LOL! Love that phrase.

Absolutely invest in MSFT, and sell when "The Ballmer Rebounds" when he actually exits within the next 12 months. 1smile.gif
post #227 of 315

Microsoft won't end up closing shop unless there is a viable alternative to Windows, Apple can't fill that gap because Apple won't do cheap computers and they won't license OSX, so for MS to truly die, something else must take its place, problem is nothing can (at the moment). Linux doesn't have mainstream commercial software or even MS Office, there are many who only will use Office and don't really care about alternatives.

post #228 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman View Post

Microsoft won't end up closing shop unless there is a viable alternative to Windows, Apple can't fill that gap because Apple won't do cheap computers and they won't license OSX, so for MS to truly die, something else must take its place, problem is nothing can (at the moment). Linux doesn't have mainstream commercial software or even MS Office, there are many who only will use Office and don't really care about alternatives.

I've always felt Apple should produce an iWorks Pro to help with one of the things you refer to.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #229 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I agree, people couldn't really care less what the application is called if it opens their legacy files and works well. Put that on vastly superior and more flexible hardware with mobile and cloud, all working seamlessly and you have a winner. Apple should consider a version of iWorks for pros as with Garage Band and Logic Pro.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I've always felt Apple should produce an iWorks Pro to help with one of the things you refer to.

 

That's an excellent idea, but it doesn't seem like it's something Apple would do.

 

Well I should say it's not something Apple would have done in the past. In the past they seemed more interested in the creative types, like Adobe, and less interested in the enterprise types like Microsoft and IBM.

 

But I have a feeling Tim Cook would see this differently than Steve would have.

 

I don't want to bring up the whole "Steve wouldn't have done it" rubbish, but Steve by his own words wasn't interested in corporate or enterprise and toward the end considered killing all Pro computers and software.

 

Tim on the other hand has revived the Mac Pro and seems to be bulking up Apple's Pro apps again. Tim probably would see the value of an enterprise suite with a powerful mail and spreadsheet software. 

 

That right there could be game changing and could change this whole conversation we're having about the relevance of Office for the upcoming decades.

post #230 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post

Stop trying to copy Apple's strategy and instead copy Apple's philosophy: Don't be afraid to burn everything you've built in exchange for a better future.


[...]

 

They are already limiting themselves in order to hang on to a legacy.

Well to be fair, at the time, Apple could afford to burn everything and start over because there were only a handful of people whose careers depended on Macintosh, and, by in large they were not in enterprise. Then look at Windows. 90%+ of the world's businesses, utilities, military, governments, scientific research, banking, and education depend on legacy Windows. When you think back, Microsoft did burn almost everything when they switched from DOS to Windows but the computing install base was much smaller then and they left in the ability to run DOS, much like Apple did with Mac OS classic in OS X. Microsoft has to keep legacy compatibility because so much of the modern world depends on it. To ditch Windows legacy compatibility would be suicide for Microsoft and plunge the business computing world into chaos for years.

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post #231 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

Tim probably would see the value of an enterprise suite with a powerful mail and spreadsheet software. 

 

That right there could be game changing and could change this whole conversation we're having about the relevance of Office for the upcoming decades.

There is a difference between Office applications and Windows as a platform. Apple, or anyone can write an app that opens and saves Office file formats but the Windows server applications are another matter altogether. There are millions of person hours invested in proprietary Windows applications in enterprise, built on .Net, C# and VB Script. That is difficult or impossible to replicate with another platform even if the Office documents used by cubical drones could be made compatible across different operating systems.

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post #232 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


The highlighted points are valid.

I did not say "project" I said "AirPlay" -- and I did not call it a "new version"... it was a feature an update that allows iPad and iPhone (and now Macs) to display iWork documents on another Mac or an HDTV.

I use Bezier Shapes and Curves all the time and in 30 plus years of using word processors have never used ligatures or needed to use hyphenation -- though I've demoed both. Pages is an excellent tool for storyboarding and with it's Bezier feature and masking capability is my go to tool for creating collages... even though I have a specialty app costing several hundred dollars.


We have different use cases and needs -- I respect that.


Based on your posts on the iCloud thread, you appear to be having performance problems * that are frustrating you (and apparently are unique to you).


* Performance problems with beta software -- are some of the issues that that beta testing is supposed to detect.

 

You specifically positioned the AirPlay thing as one of three versions of iWork, even though it's true that you did not use those specific words.  

 

AirPlay is "projection." It is the wireless projection of a screen image.  Mirroring is projection. 

 

You use ligatures (the ellipsis) in this very post and AppleInsider's commenting system supports them as does HTML and every other word processor I've ever heard of.  The lack of the ellipsis in particular really screws with the auto capitalisation feature in Pages.  

 

I know that the online version is a beta, I can't imagine they will launch it without supporting the main English language and I will be shocked (and very complainy) if they do.  My main fears about it, revolve around the horrible scrolling/cacheing performance and a few really foolish design decisions (like having documents open at a default resolution instead of "fit to width" without letting the user set or alter that default resolution).

 

I'm worried about the poor performance with scrolling as it seems to be something that might be impossible to fix given that we are talking about document editing on the web.  This means that the web version will be useless except for spot edits and that you can't effectively work with any documents over a couple or three pages.  I'm worried about some of the crazy design decisions, because Apple tends to really believe that they get that stuff right, so when they get it wrong, it often takes multiple versions before they will come down off the high horse and admit they designed something wrong.  So I might have to deal with this weird and irritating default resolution issue for years before they finally give me a choice to display my documents in a sane way. 

 

Overall, I'm just disappointed in the disrespect Apple has shown for what is for me, a central and very important application.  The lack of any significant updates or effort on their part, and the lack of attention to detail is atrocious.  The idea that they actually think their work is "done" or "good enough" and are thinking of making the whole thing free as part of a loss leader package to sell hardware infuriates me.  I've got a lot invested, so that's why I might come across as angry or disrespectful of your spirited defence of them.  I don't mean anything personal and if it came across that way I'm sorry. 

 

A lot of users like me *believed* them when they said they were serious about making the iWork apps serious competitors.  I think they've let down all those people who actually took them at their word and moved all their creation away from Office to iWork.  I think they owe the people like me who have been suffering all this time, a far bigger apology than the one they gave to the few users who lost data on MobileMe.  

 

If the team leader for iWork apps was in front of me at this moment I'd step on his/her foot and slap them on the face.  And I say that as a lifelong Apple supporter and someone who has never actually hit anyone in their life. 

post #233 of 315
Microsoft without Ballmer seems to have a chance as niche player. With Ballmer - No future.
post #234 of 315

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

You use ligatures (the ellipsis) in this very post and AppleInsider's commenting system supports them as does HTML and every other word processor I've ever heard of.  

 
 
 …  (ellipsis with space on either side to denote deleted text)
 
A lot of users like me *believed* them when they said they were serious about making the iWork apps serious competitors.  I think they've let down all those people who actually took them at their word and moved all their creation away from Office to iWork. 


I think I learned back in 1984 that word processors could not reliably represent professional typography. If that is is important to you then you should be using a desktop publishing program.

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post #235 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


Personally, I think Microsoft will become a company like IBM. A large company that is a shadow of its former self* but still relevant in the corporate world because of its services.

[ ... but Ballmer doesn't want Microsoft to be IBM... or Apple ]
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57599909-75/ballmer-microsoft-doesnt-want-to-be-ibm-or-apple/

* addendum - IBM is actually doing quite well... not a shadow of its former self at all. Maybe they will buy Microsoft in 10 years.  1cool.gif

My thoughts exactly. IBM is still around, but it has completely retreated from consumer computing products. They are still a force in mainframes, research, and consultancy, and they own a shit ton of patents, but they are exclusively a B2B entity. That is a possible outcome if they fail repeatedly in the consumer space, and new management is under pressure to reduce the drain on profits from fighting the war.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #236 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I'll always remember the good times: stomping on iPhones, throwing chairs, sweaty armpits, and competing directly against their hardware partners.

Darn I'll miss his rants against Apple.   They were my chuckle of the day, even the week sometimes.

He was so ridiculous he actually helped Apple's sales.

 

Now MS will be very dull, until they find a manager willing risk the sinking ship.

 Oh well; there will  always be someone willing to take the short term risk for the BIG bucks they'll pay.

post #237 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

My thoughts exactly. IBM is still around, but it has completely retreated from consumer computing products. They are still a force in mainframes, research, and consultancy, and they own a shit ton of patents, but they are exclusively a B2B entity. That is a possible outcome if they fail repeatedly in the consumer space, and new management is under pressure to reduce the drain on profits from fighting the war.

I think that is their only option. Agree. Their sever products, although rather proprietary are very robust. Unlike IBM who settled on Linux as their OS, I think MS may have to isolate itself to .Net in order to survive.

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post #238 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0c0s0 View Post

Scott Forstall anyone?

 

Ha!  Also, I hear that Leo Apothekar is available.  ;)

post #239 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post


Personally, I think Microsoft will become a company like IBM. A large company that is a shadow of its former self but still relevant in the corporate world because of its services.
 

Just because IBM has changed its business focus doesn't mean it is a shadow of its former self. Far from it, no matter which really important metric you use. Success is not merely measured by marketshare in the consumer world. 

 

Given that IBM walked away from the PC market a few years before the dawn of the age of tablet (whilst near the top of the heap), the proper perspective is that they were frigging brilliant - one of the most brilliant transitions any large business has ever made. Microsoft has never timed anything so perfectly. Nor has it made such a strategic and successful 90° shift in its history (although Bill Gates would argue IE was one such example).

post #240 of 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0c0s0 View Post

Scott Forstall anyone?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot View Post

 

Ha!  Also, I hear that Leo Apothekar is available.  ;)

The interesting question is whether they will hire a business manager (sales or finance person) or a technology guru to run the business. 

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