or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Microsoft to buy Nokia's cell phone business for $7.2B, will license patents and services
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Microsoft to buy Nokia's cell phone business for $7.2B, will license patents and services - Page 2

post #41 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkse View Post

Does this mean we can expect a Nokia Surface now? (Or, more likely, the "Microsoft Nokia Surface Windows RT" given the catchy names Microsoft usually comes up with.)

Not more than you're likely to see a "Microsoft Nokia Xbox One, Zune, or KIN."

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #42 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkse View Post

Does this mean we can expect a Nokia Surface now? (Or, more likely, the "Microsoft Nokia Surface Windows RT" given the catchy names Microsoft usually comes up with.)

Nokia has a Windows RT tablet in development. It was shown off last week and looks very similar to the Lumia range of phones.
post #43 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisgoingon View Post


Same as before....nobody.

I think maybe HP or Dell might be interested in Blackberry, there's always a sucker out there for something.  HP was dumb enough to buy Palm.  

post #44 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post


Nokia has a Windows RT tablet in development. It was shown off last week and looks very similar to the Lumia range of phones.

What's it called?  The Windows RT ZOOM tablet?   Does it have a kickstand that goes click? How about a 41 MP camera?

post #45 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams View Post

After Apple's smart phone success story Google buys failed Motorola and now Microsoft follows suit with another failed phone maker.  Smells like success is just around the corner!  
 
Now which way are those deck chairs suppose to face?  

 

And in other news the market share of WP in places like Germany is 9% and going up, and Apple is 11% and going down...

post #46 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

 

Nokia was not at all in financial trouble before Elop took over. This was a textbook destruction of a viable company. If Nokia would have (and I am not an Android fan at all) bet on Android, then Samsung would be in trouble.

 

Nokia's engineers and distribution network are easily worth $7.2bn, if you have the products to push... Luckily, MS hasn't.

 

Not strictly in financial trouble, but coasting on past successes. The momentum was running out and they really started to slide about when he started. There was nothing he could do except stop them crashing. And looking at the 2Q results they were starting to level out.

post #47 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning View Post

 

And in other news the market share of WP in places like Germany is 9% and going up, and Apple is 11% and going down...

 

And with Nokia selling a new and unlocked WP8 phone for 150 EUR at a loss, and Apple selling a 12 months old device for 680 EUR... this is news?

 

What is your suggestion for Apple? Selling itself to MS for $7.2bn after following the same strategy? Cook may not be Jobs, but at least he isn't working for Ballmer.

post #48 of 109

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply
post #49 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

What's it called?  The Windows RT ZOOM tablet?   Does it have a kickstand that goes click? How about a 41 MP camera?

Now that's just it. The Nokia hardware is usually very, very nice. If Microsoft could get their act together to tie into the larger ecosystem of software for the enterprise, they'd have a success on their hands. They'd need to be fast, though, since there are ways of using iPads in an enterprise with an MS backend too - it just involves more non-MS software. Interesting development, nonetheless.

post #50 of 109

This is why you can't write MS off. They have the cash to make big moves.

post #51 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning View Post

 

Not strictly in financial trouble, but coasting on past successes. The momentum was running out and they really started to slide about when he started. There was nothing he could do except stop them crashing. And looking at the 2Q results they were starting to level out.

 

Not only "not strictly" in financial trouble, not in financial trouble at all - the phone business was even able to balance the (then) loss-making NSN and the always loss-making maps. They were even increasing sales then (not market share though).

 

Looking at 2Q, a good quarter for NSN was almost able to compensate for the losses in devices and maps (combined with MS's $250m quarterly injection and marketing support) after sinking from being smart phone vendor number 1 to number 9 in less than two years.

 

Elop turned the (always profitable) feature phone business into mayhem and, bottom line (after overheads and expenses) lost an average of 14% on every phone (smart or not) sold. Several industry experts have called it the worst destruction of any company ever, or even "New Coke", "Deepwater Horizon" and the "Edsel" combined... Elop achieved only one thing: making Nokia cheap enough for MS.

post #52 of 109

On the day Google acquired Moto only people have expected that MS would buy Nokia. 

No surprise.

post #53 of 109

Everybody now realize the power of being vertically integrated.

That is own the hardware team and the software team right under the same roof.

post #54 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

So basically Elop was a Trojan horse and he's now back at Microsoft, most likely to replace Ballmer.

Looks that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post


I believe there are already licensing deals in place for all of those patents so nothing is really going to change for the greater landscape.
 

The odds that *all* patents are parts of licensing deals are pretty slim. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

But maybe Microsoft will bolster Bing with Navteq maps now. A better mapping client would bring Bing closer to competing with Google.
 
Maps are not part of the deal.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Since Apple and Microsoft have a patent agreement, then Apple can use Nokia technology patents, right?

Is that what the agreement is about - both parties can use each other's technology liberally? 

post #55 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

Everybody now realize the power of being vertically integrated.

That is own the hardware team and the software team right under the same roof.

The Apple effect, or rather the iPhone effect, is still reverberating.

 

On the other hand, Nintendo, another software-hardware-in-the-same-house company, is struggling.

post #56 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


Not more than you're likely to see a "Microsoft Nokia Xbox One, Zune, or KIN."

But will we see Microsoft Lumia, or will it remain Nokia Lumia?

post #57 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post

The Apple effect, or rather the iPhone effect, is still reverberating.

 

On the other hand, Nintendo, another software-hardware-in-the-same-house company, is struggling.

 

Nintendo is struggling because there hardware / software tech is prolly old school. They refused to move into the new age software / hardware aeon we are now in.

Why would people go with Nintendo when Play Stations and Xbox's give more superior entertainment to the end user :).

 

Hence being vertically integrated with cutting edge tech + being innovative is what it takes to be the leader :)

post #58 of 109

So this won't happen in 300 years?!

 

post #59 of 109

Apple should buy "Nokia Here" mapping and location services business if possible and perhaps the phone patents a.

 

Apple should buy the Nokia Here" mapping and location services business which is big in automobiles today.  This is an opportunity to have it's own maps data and push iOS in cars in a big way.

Since Microsoft is only licensing the patents from Nokia, Apple may wish to buy them if the technologies make sense long term.

post #60 of 109

Looks like HP and Blackberry are screwed.  HP is screwed because Microsoft probably will buy Dell.

post #61 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

 

Not only "not strictly" in financial trouble, not in financial trouble at all - the phone business was even able to balance the (then) loss-making NSN and the always loss-making maps. They were even increasing sales then (not market share though).

 

Looking at 2Q, a good quarter for NSN was almost able to compensate for the losses in devices and maps (combined with MS's $250m quarterly injection and marketing support) after sinking from being smart phone vendor number 1 to number 9 in less than two years.

 

Elop turned the (always profitable) feature phone business into mayhem and, bottom line (after overheads and expenses) lost an average of 14% on every phone (smart or not) sold. Several industry experts have called it the worst destruction of any company ever, or even "New Coke", "Deepwater Horizon" and the "Edsel" combined... Elop achieved only one thing: making Nokia cheap enough for MS.

 

Don't quote Tomi, it only makes you look silly.

 

"Nokia’s management was doing a very good job of destroying its value long before he arrived." - Michael Mace

http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.fi/2013/09/microsoft-nokia-now-were-all-like-apple.html

post #62 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by winstein2010 View Post

Looks like HP and Blackberry are screwed.  HP is screwed because Microsoft probably will buy Dell.

Kind of cool, actually. MS will then sit on hardware, software and services but will also license their software to other hardware vendors. Just like Apple did back in the nineties.

 

Will this mean we finally get to see more *nix based operating systems from HP and other PC hardware makers?

post #63 of 109

What bothers me is that every time a new category is introduced Apple absolutely kicks Microsoft google and sammy in the ass.

 

Then, it's all the same. Apple sales go up, Market share goes down, Profit share goes down slower (even if maintains 1 vs 1 OEM leader status), Apple is doomed news and rumours.

I mean... It's boring when new products take years to arrive.

 

In the meanwhile, why doesn't Apple do something like this? Invest in something big. Heck, buy google's search engine. lol Buy the playstation division, buy TESLA...

post #64 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post

Everybody now realize the power of being vertically integrated.

That is own the hardware team and the software team right under the same roof.

I wish MS well. Apple needs some decent competition. Android is suffering the splintering that was predicted many years ago. The device makers & carriers control the software and don't bother to update instead pushing customers to buy new devices. If MS can provide a consistent user experience, I think they can sell that.

 

The problem with MS, though, is they have no taste. Rather than develop a really good mobile user experience and a really good desktop experience they mashed the two together into Tiles - which has been a failure on the desktop. MS has huge integration potential - Office, Exchange, SQL Server, IIS, XBox. They have a great stable of software deeply entrenched in the enterprise. If they could get WP tied in with that - with all the security and management features that enterprise expects today - they could own the corporate phone market. And with some clever sandboxing, they could have a personal side and a company side of a phone.

 

Maybe now that Ballmer is on the way out they'll get someone in charge with some aesthetic sense. Or at least someone smart enough to put someone with aesthetic sense in charge of all things UI - MS needs a Jony Ive or a Scott Forstall.

 

- Jasen.

post #65 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

And with Nokia selling a new and unlocked WP8 phone for 150 EUR at a loss, and Apple selling a 12 months old device for 680 EUR... this is news?

At a loss? Please provide proof
post #66 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post

 

 

You are confusing the entire Nokia company and its assets with the part that Microsoft is buying. 

 

"Under the terms of the agreement, Microsoft will pay EUR 3.79 billion to purchase substantially all of Nokia’s Devices & Services business, and EUR 1.65 billion to license Nokia’s patents, for a total transaction price of EUR 5.44 billion in cash."

 

Looks like Nokia will retain their HERE services and just licensing use to Microsoft. So Nokia will still own what was Navteq. Plus they are joint owners of Nokia Siemens Networks which is hardware, software, and services for telecommunications networks. Plus they keep their over 40,000 patents and all those assets you pointed out. This lets them dump their mobile business that was not going anywhere and stuff the $5 Billion EUR in the bank and focus on their new future.

 

I'm guessing the shareholders will approve, but after some initial pushback because they are loosing the most visible part of the business that the country of Finland was so proud of. When they realize it was already lost long ago, they will take the money and run. :) My $.02... 

 

Wouldn't the patents associated with the mobile division go with they buyout?  Isn't that how they would structure the deal?  What's the point in buying a mobile device mfg if you don't get the patents that goes along with that business.  The licensing rights to the NAME Nokia is for 10 years, but I would assume that they would get the patent rights fully transferred that are directly related to the mobile business, which would be separate from the Siemens Networks and other aspects of the business that's not directly associated with the mobile division.

post #67 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post

Looks that way.

The odds that *all* patents are parts of licensing deals are pretty slim. 

Is that what the agreement is about - both parties can use each other's technology liberally? 

What I mean by all patents, meaning the patents associated with the mobile division that they are buying and not the patents associated with the part they aren't buying.

 

Essentially what I read was that Microsoft and Apple have a cross technology agreement where they use each other's patents as long as they aren't BLATANTLY trying to copy the other. So, Apple can't make a GUI that looks just like Windows 8 and Microsoft can't make a GUI that looks just like iOS or OS X, and things like that.  It's just to try to avoid any further litigation by either party.  So, there will be little things here and there that are VERY similar, it's just the implementation might be slightly different.  Obviously, I haven't read the T's and C's of the agreement, but that's the gist of it from my reading.  Apple did the same basic agreement with HTC and they mentioned that HTC still pays Apple some amount of money per device sold since Apple has far more useable patents than HTC.  I think it's around $25 a device or something along those lines.

post #68 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

What I mean by all patents, meaning the patents associated with the mobile division that they are buying and not the patents associated with the part they aren't buying.

Microsoft doesn't get ownership of even the phone-related patents if I understand correctly. They are non-exclusively licensed to MS for a 10-year term, but ownership remains with Nokia.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #69 of 109
Making Elop MS CEO is a "bold move", in the same way killing yourself after a zombie bite is a "bold move"...

Should have about the same effect as suicide after a zombie bite, too...
Ask me about.... The 80's!
Reply
Ask me about.... The 80's!
Reply
post #70 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I would not be surprised if that was part of the deal. It's Elop's reward for giving Microsoft the only real feather in its mobile OS hat.
Wow pretty expensive reward. Will be intersting to see what MS stock does today. In the wacky world of Wall Street where down is up my guess is MS stock will be up and all the clowns on CBNC will be doing a 180 on their D&G and shifting it back to Apple. lol.gif
post #71 of 109
End of an era.
post #72 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

You normally can't "resell" patents.

Who told you that?
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
Reply
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
Reply
post #73 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

What bothers me is that every time a new category is introduced Apple absolutely kicks Microsoft google and sammy in the ass.

 

Then, it's all the same. Apple sales go up, Market share goes down, Profit share goes down slower (even if maintains 1 vs 1 OEM leader status), Apple is doomed news and rumours.

I mean... It's boring when new products take years to arrive.

 

In the meanwhile, why doesn't Apple do something like this? Invest in something big. Heck, buy google's search engine. lol Buy the playstation division, buy TESLA...

Apple has always kept most of their acquisitions pretty small and to companies that are TYPICALLY not publicly traded and they usually go for companies that have technology that is key for future business whether it's s/w and/or h/w based.  They do this for a variety of reasons.  It doesn't cost much to buy a company for tens or hundreds of millions, they are kept under the radar of the SEC and competitors.   Buying these big stock deals is not only pricey, but they sometimes don't offer much other than a big headache and it can sometimes take 10 to 40 years to fully recoup the money.  If you look at the P/E ratio and how much cash on hand/long term/short term cash, the time it takes to recoup the money isn't worth it.  Let me give you an example.


Let's say a company had a P/E ratio of 35 and Apple paid $10 Billion, and the company had $1 Billion in cash.  So, it actually costs Apple $9 Bil of actual cash, but it might take 30 years or so since the company they are buying is already sold very high in relationship the amount they bring in on a yearly basis.

 

Apple has to look at the business in what they are buying, what they need to keep, etc.

 

Why would Apple need Nokia?  For patents?  If Microsoft buys the company and the associated patents, then Apple may already have access to them due to their agreement with MS.  Nokia has some mfg/assembly capabilities.  Well, to switch Nokia production lines over to Apple would take a while, while it's probably easier and faster to add production in China with Foxconn, Pegatron, etc.  so that's not a reason.   So, what's left over? to continue selling and supporting existing Nokia products for several years?  Apple doesn't want that headache.  What other reason could there be?  To prevent someone else buying the company?  No profit in that. 

 

There are only a handful of publicly companies that I could see a potential buyout for Apple that would make sense.  But there are still too many roadblocks in the process.

 

I think it's better for the most part to stick with smaller technology companies where they can gobble up and actually use the technology and people to create future products.

 

It's really hard to resurrect a large failing company.  HP failed with Palm, Dell's failing with Wyse.  I think it would be pretty close to impossible to resurrect Blackberry at this point.  I honestly don't know what they have in terms of patents that actually worth buying.

post #74 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Funny. Microsoft of the 1990s would have been telling everyone that licensing the OS is where the money is at. They even had Apple convinced that it should license Mac OS and Newton OS. Now, everyone wants to be a "vertically integrated device and services" company. Oh Microsoft. Whatever happened to your business model?

 

My thoughts exactly, and so now begins their search for an identity. "*Who* am I?" Who *am* I? Who am *I*?" I don't predict this will end well, it's just a good thing MS has so much cash they can make these sorts of investments.

 

For MS to make the switch to a hardware company, they need to split the company in two or get ready to say good-bye to lots and lots of hardware companies with whom they've spent the past 30 years or so partnering.

 

I'll say it now - what a stupid move.

post #75 of 109
I wonder if we'll see layoffs? MS is quite bloated as it is, last thing they need is 32,000 more employees.
post #76 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Apple has always kept most of their acquisitions pretty small and to companies that are TYPICALLY not publicly traded and they usually go for companies that have technology that is key for future business whether it's s/w and/or h/w based.  They do this for a variety of reasons.  It doesn't cost much to buy a company for tens or hundreds of millions, they are kept under the radar of the SEC and competitors.   Buying these big stock deals is not only pricey, but they sometimes don't offer much other than a big headache and it can sometimes take 10 to 40 years to fully recoup the money.  If you look at the P/E ratio and how much cash on hand/long term/short term cash, the time it takes to recoup the money isn't worth it.  Let me give you an example.


Let's say a company had a P/E ratio of 35 and Apple paid $10 Billion, and the company had $1 Billion in cash.  So, it actually costs Apple $9 Bil of actual cash, but it might take 30 years or so since the company they are buying is already sold very high in relationship the amount they bring in on a yearly basis.

Apple has to look at the business in what they are buying, what they need to keep, etc.

Why would Apple need Nokia?  For patents?  If Microsoft buys the company and the associated patents, then Apple may already have access to them due to their agreement with MS.  Nokia has some mfg/assembly capabilities.  Well, to switch Nokia production lines over to Apple would take a while, while it's probably easier and faster to add production in China with Foxconn, Pegatron, etc.  so that's not a reason.   So, what's left over? to continue selling and supporting existing Nokia products for several years?  Apple doesn't want that headache.  What other reason could there be?  To prevent someone else buying the company?  No profit in that. 

There are only a handful of publicly companies that I could see a potential buyout for Apple that would make sense.  But there are still too many roadblocks in the process.

I think it's better for the most part to stick with smaller technology companies where they can gobble up and actually use the technology and people to create future products.

It's really hard to resurrect a large failing company.  HP failed with Palm, Dell's failing with Wyse.  I think it would be pretty close to impossible to resurrect Blackberry at this point.  I honestly don't know what they have in terms of patents that actually worth buying.
I actually think its quite amazing how well Apple has done and how big they've become without a major acquisition. All of their growth in revenue and profits has happened organically not via a major acquisition. I hope the Carl Ichaan's of the world don't force Tim Cook and the Apple board into making some stupid large acquisition. How often do large acquisitions like this actually work out? What has Skype really done for Microsoft, or Motorola for Google? What will be interesting to see is do MS OEM's move further to Android and Chrome as MS firmly plants itself in the hardware business?
post #77 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I wonder if we'll see layoffs? MS is quite bloated as it is, last thing they need is 32,000 more employees.

 

Nokia already laid off a lot of their engineering staff. Most of the 32,000 work in the factories. I guess most of the factories can be shut down if Microsoft is going down a smartphone-only route.

post #78 of 109
I wonder how much/how soon MS will acquire HP computer division?
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
post #79 of 109
I hope Apple officially announces their iPhone event on the 10th today. Take some of the media attention off MS/Nokia and both will/are taking attention away from Samsung's Note event on the 4th. 1biggrin.gif
post #80 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

 

No, they won't. The deal gives them free use of the patents for 10 years, but Nokia remains the owner. Won't change the landscape at all.

 

===

 

Elop really played the Trojan Horse part well. $5bn (far less than what MS paid for Skype) for a company that was $110bn a few years ago. There is little a MS manager can't wreck. Nokia share holders will be miffed. The remaining parts are either burning money (HERE) or in a predicted decline (NSN). Elop made them buy the remaining 50% of NSN (spending their remaining cash for a doubtful business) and now sells "devices and services" for next to nothing.

 

And as they can use their foreign funds, MS even saves the 30% tax they would have to pay when repatriating the money... If it would not stink that much, I would have to admire it.

 

 

Considering Design patents expire in 14 years, most of those patents will likely be worthless at the conclusion of the deal. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Microsoft to buy Nokia's cell phone business for $7.2B, will license patents and services