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European Apple patent hints at NFC-enabled iPhone fingerprint sensor - Page 2

post #41 of 65
Offtopic: Never understood the idea of taking Patented documents you do not own any rights to and putting your site watermark on them, as if that somehow either indemnifies you or authorizes you some right to republish the work and no one else?

I see it on every site regarding patents. Just seems a bit off.
post #42 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

There is absolutely nothing about the NFC portion of this patent that couldn't also be done with bluetooth in a much more secure way however.  

And how many people would be frustrated because it doesn't work as they forgot to turn on Bluetooth? I'd prefer something more foolproof.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.
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post #43 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

It was gold.

 

Tallest Sauron

Help! I'm trapped in a white dungeon of amazing precision and impeccable tolerances!

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Help! I'm trapped in a white dungeon of amazing precision and impeccable tolerances!

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post #44 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by battlescarred1 View Post

Could the black square next to the home button be the NFC coil?

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/09/06/silver-ring-around-iphone-5s-home-button-may-be-integral-to-fingerprint-reader-not-just-for-looks

As far as I read it was stated that it might contain the logic to process the sensor input.
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.
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post #45 of 65
I get the impression that the NFC in the patent is a generic term for communication over short distances using electric fields, not the thing that is branded as NFC, which is a specific application. The patent even mentions using capacitative effects for transmission. The thing branded as NFC is purely inductive. Also Apple is going all out on Bluetooth 4, part of which is Bluetooth Low Energy, which has a huge functional overlap with NFC, but is more modern and has native crypto.

http://arstechnica.com/staff/2013/02/mobile-world-congress-is-mean-girls-and-nfc-isnt-going-to-happen/

I've done demo software for NFC, NFC is a bag of hurt.
Remember that other bag of hurt?
Edited by draugminaion - 9/9/13 at 12:10am
post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane View Post


And how many people would be frustrated because it doesn't work as they forgot to turn on Bluetooth? I'd prefer something more foolproof.

 

The same would apply for NFC.

Bluetooth Low Energy is low energy. It was designed to last months on a small battery, (for simple things like identification, proximity detection, or temperature sensors), it will be always on.


Edited by draugminaion - 9/9/13 at 12:16am
post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by draugminaion View Post

The same would apply for NFC.
Bluetooth Low Energy is low energy. It was designed to last months on a small battery, (for simple things like identification, proximity detection, or temperature sensors), it will be always on.

I see. I assumed the whole point of applying NFC was to make things easier and smoother, an "it just works" kind of thing.
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion, man.
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post #48 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Or better yet, biometric authentication can be triggered as part of the NFC transaction.  Just as it can be triggered by over the internet.
It's just an authentication factor like user ID and password.  For example:

1.  Push the power button to login using fingerprint authentication.
2.  Wave phone in front of receiver to initiate NFC communication.
3.  Use the in-display fingerprint reader to authenticate the NFC transaction.


The Question is who is going to own the huge fingerprint DB ?  
1.  Apple? 
2.  Banks / Credit card issuers? (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover)
3.  Government Agencies?
4.  ID card issuers?  (Corporations, Agencies, etc... )

I really wish Apple Insider would stop with the damn "FINGERPRINT SCANNER nonsense, so we won't have people thinking there's gonna be a frickin' fingerprint being recorded and bringing on ridiculous question like this last one. We can also avoid the dim-witted phone thieves escaping with a person's finger along with their phone!!!

It's only a biometric sensor, not a fingerprint scanner!!!
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #49 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane View Post


I see. I assumed the whole point of applying NFC was to make things easier and smoother, an "it just works" kind of thing.

 

Could work that way, but the carriers, being in denial of their true destiny as dumb pipes, saw NFC as a chance to escape.

They have kept NFC imprisoned in their jail of ridiculous fees and key escrow nastiness for a long time. Now NFC has peer-to-peer, enabling use of NFC without carrier interference. But, I think it's too late. NFC will have 2 or 3 death spasms that people will mistake for life and then die.

post #50 of 65
Here's a question for anyone that would know the answer:

Could a Bluetooth 4 based signal communicate with an NFC terminal? I'm sure if the frequency of the signal were calibrated that could work, no?

The problem I see with Apple going in a different direction than the rest of the industry is lack of compatibility with current payment terminals at global retailers today.

Also Square doesn't have great penetration either. I've mainly only seen Square used at small businesses.
post #51 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post
 

 

Or better yet, biometric authentication can be triggered as part of the NFC transaction.  Just as it can be triggered by over the internet.

It's just an authentication factor like user ID and password.  For example:

 

1.  Push the power button to login using fingerprint authentication.

2.  Wave phone in front of receiver to initiate NFC communication.

3.  Use the in-display fingerprint reader to authenticate the NFC transaction.

 

The Question is who is going to own the huge fingerprint DB ?  

1.  Apple? 

2.  Banks / Credit card issuers? (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover)

3.  Government Agencies?

4.  ID card issuers?  (Corporations, Agencies, etc... )

 

That's not how it works.

Just like nobody (with any sense) puts passwords in a database, but just the hashes, nobody puts fingerprints in a database.

Fingerprint scanners usually do not store entire fingerprints, but extract details.

To authenticate a finger the details must match.

You cannot reconstruct the fingerprint from the details.

 

And. Just like the PIN code, there is no reason to store fingerprint (details) anywhere but on the device.

(and maybe in a backup on PC or in the cloud (which would be encrypted) )


Edited by draugminaion - 9/9/13 at 3:55am
post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook View Post

Here's a question for anyone that would know the answer:

Could a Bluetooth 4 based signal communicate with an NFC terminal? I'm sure if the frequency of the signal were calibrated that could work, no?

The problem I see with Apple going in a different direction than the rest of the industry is lack of compatibility with current payment terminals at global retailers today.

Also Square doesn't have great penetration either. I've mainly only seen Square used at small businesses.

 

No way. NFC is 13.5 MHz Bluetooth is 2.4-2.5 GHz with frequency hopping.

post #53 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

How many times does it have to be repeated that living tissue is required?

 

I bet for the first few minutes after the finger's been removed the sensor wont be able to tell it and dead tissue apart. The thieve should be able to change authentication details in that timeframe

post #54 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnd0ps View Post
 

 

I bet for the first few minutes after the finger's been removed the sensor wont be able to tell it and dead tissue apart. The thieve should be able to change authentication details in that timeframe

 

He'd have to know the right finger too. You could setup the device to lock up when it sees one of your wrong fingers.

You'll get to a point where thieves have to be so smart they won't bother with stealing phones.

post #55 of 65
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

Or maybe:

50 million Rings to rule them all, 50 million Rings to find them,
50 million Rings to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by draugminaion View Post
 

Or maybe:

50 million Rings to rule them all, 50 million Rings to find them,
50 million Rings to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

 

Not to mention 50 million hobbits to cast them into the fiery chasms from whence they came.

Do Androids have hairy feet?

post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

Quote:
Two things, an NFC phone could be tracked at government checkpoints EVEN WITHOUT cellular or wifi or bluetooth on!

2nd, there is concern around the ways different hardware features can be turned on via software, remotely, without your approval, possibly via a gov't backdoor, vulnerability, etc.  Without having a jailbroken device w/root access, you could never know for certain if these types of things were happening behind the scenes.  How could you know if the FaceTime front camera was turned on w/out your permission, there is no LED to show it on, and even if there was, the LED could be commanded off while the camera was on.  Same thing with a fingerprint sensor -- how do you know if it is not capturing yours w/out your authorization when you touch the home button?!!  There are plenty of reasons for jailbreaking to continue.  

Remember, when the people fear the government there is tyranny, and when the government fears the people there is liberty.  

"Paranoia will destroy yaaaa...."

Why is it paranoia? Given all the NSA revelations we've heard of during the past few weeks, I have to admit that even I am feeling a tad nervous.
post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by draugminaion View Post

I get the impression that the NFC in the patent is a generic term for communication over short distances using electric fields, not the thing that is branded as NFC, which is a specific application. The patent even mentions using capacitative effects for transmission. The thing branded as NFC is purely inductive. Also Apple is going all out on Bluetooth 4, part of which is Bluetooth Low Energy, which has a huge functional overlap with NFC, but is more modern and has native crypto.

http://arstechnica.com/staff/2013/02/mobile-world-congress-is-mean-girls-and-nfc-isnt-going-to-happen/

I've done demo software for NFC, NFC is a bag of hurt.
Remember that other bag of hurt?

Apple specifically limited this patent's application and the US one to near field communication, NFC, which is not the same as Bluetooth. Someone using Bluetooth LE to do the exact same thing would not be infringing as I read it. That doesn't mean that Apple hasn't also filed another patent application addressing it tho. This one wouldn't be it.
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post #60 of 65
Now it makes sense why Apple has resisted integrating NFC until now. Maybe tomorrows iPhone 5S will incorporate NFC functionality in addition to the finger-print tech (finally!).
post #61 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Why is it paranoia? Given all the NSA revelations we've heard of during the past few weeks, I have to admit that even I am feeling a tad nervous.

I'm with you. We're all being tracked, recorded and stored whether we use a desktop or mobile computing device, iOS, MAC, Android or Windows. . . and it ain't for serving up harmless ads. Most of us just had no idea to what extent until recently.
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post #62 of 65
Originally Posted by dnd0ps View Post

I bet for the first few minutes after the finger's been removed the sensor wont be able to tell it and dead tissue apart. The thieve should be able to change authentication details in that timeframe

 

Thieves aren't that smart. Heck, they're not smart enough to know about fingerprint sensors in the first place.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone exists], it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #63 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983 View Post

Now it makes sense why Apple has resisted integrating NFC until now. Maybe tomorrows iPhone 5S will incorporate NFC functionality in addition to the finger-print tech (finally!).

 

NFC is a bunch of repurposed fragments of really old RFID standards. 

Doesn't sound like something apple would do.

post #64 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnd0ps View Post
 

 

I bet for the first few minutes after the finger's been removed the sensor wont be able to tell it and dead tissue apart. The thieve should be able to change authentication details in that timeframe

 

I dunno. If this is ultimately based on capacitance, it seems to me a finger not attached to a body would have a significantly different capacitance profile than one that is.

 

Now, a finger still attached to a very recently dead body, maybe...  ; )

post #65 of 65

When you have FULL device access, your abilities are as great as you are knowledgable.  

 

The root or mobile user passwords are easily changeable -- was that supposed to be an issue?!  *baffled*  Every "feature" comes with tradeoffs, and in the hands of the unscrupulous, there can be a world of undesired consequences.  Technology lovers must remain eternally vigilant to watch over what is going on behind the scenes and spread information for awareness to others.  

 

Analogies are out there, just watch the movie the Matrix…  

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post
 

 

Well, jailbreaking does not really help you with that either, as you still can't look into things happening inside compiled code. And, outside of people really knowing what they are doing (<1% of users, I would say), jailbreaking is a pretty foolproof way to make a device more vulnerable (default root password, disabling sandboxing, full file system access, ability to install potentially rogue apps using private APIs).

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