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Apple announces 'Touch ID' fingerprint scanner for iPhone 5S - Page 4

post #121 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post


I think this sensor will save the user a few seconds each time.  In all it will save iPhone users hundreds of millions of seconds each day.  This is what convenience is about. 

That would be truly amazing since a day only has 86, 400 seconds.

Note plural: 'users'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I see no reason why Apple couldn't allow 3rd-party sites to be aware that the user has passed the fingerprint scan and follow the same procedure to directly login to their site.

Another consideration would be to have above capability work with BLE or Point-to-Point WiFi so you could do things when the Internet is not available or not needed -- unlock your front door or car, pay for groceries, etc.

Me neither, and I do expect this tech to extend to 3rd party apps, or an API.
post #122 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Note plural: 'users'

I missed that little tidbit, thanks.
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post #123 of 135
What I want to know about the fingerprint censor is did they implement it as an either/or security feature or if it supports 2-factor security: thumbprint + code? If it is Either thumbprint OR Code, then it's a total "meh" cause then all I need to do is fall asleep around my friends and they're in my phone posting crap on my FB as if it were me. I mean I'm sure they have it setup to do print or code, but I will only be excited if I can set it up to be print AND code.
post #124 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I see no reason why Apple couldn't allow 3rd-party sites to be aware that the user has passed the fingerprint scan and follow the same procedure to directly login to their site.

Another consideration would be to have above capability work with BLE or Point-to-Point WiFi so you could do things when the Internet is not available or not needed -- unlock your front door or car, pay for groceries, etc.

Yeah it would make it much easier for logging into password sites without having to remember the login details and type them. Not only that, passwords are getting weaker the more that technology improves and there's a recent report suggesting encryption isn't as strong as people thought:

http://www.zdnet.com/has-the-nsa-broken-ssl-tls-aes-7000020312/

I think there will be a push towards stronger privacy protection beyond simple passwords and there's an easy option to move beyond them. That option is to use very long encryption keys, already used for SSH:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SSH_Keys

It doesn't get round inherent flaws in protocols but it prevents some danger in someone accessing server-side keys because they are just public keys anyway. With Apple's setup, any switch to stronger encryption would be completely transparent to the user.

They can add fingerprint scanners to Macs and can sync private keys directly from one device to another. This is something that will be hard for others to replicate because they don't have a complete desktop and mobile eco-system with integrated software across both and Apple bought the company that makes the scanners so I'm not sure where else people will get similar hardware tech. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes competing device manufacturers to scramble around trying to find biometric scanner hardware that rivals what Apple has and they don't use physical home buttons so it'll never be as intuitive.
post #125 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

I think the more important reason is the missing large sized iPhone.  AAPL did not drop when the 5C price is announced.  It began dropping after the show is over.  It seems the market was waiting for the one last thing.  

I am convinced there are quite a few consumers that want bigger phone over better phone.  Without a bigger phone Apple is giving up a growth opportunity.  Cheaper phone actually will lower gross margin which is not good for the stock.  

No. It was the price of the 5C. Everyone knew that Apple wasn't coming out with a bigger phone this year, so that was no surprise. Read the computer and financial sites, and you will see this.

But how people in the industry thought that Apple could come out with a phone for $300-400 is beyond me. And that's what I've been reading that they did expect.
post #126 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by graxspoo View Post

I thought the whole point of the 5c was to hit a lower price point. If so, they failed.
The 5c unlocked sells for the same as the 5 does on Virgin Mobile at this point. If Samsung can make a profit selling Galaxy S IIIs for $300ish, I don't see why Apple can't make an iPhone for around the same price. A $550 phone is not going to significantly open any new markets for them. They are selling the iPhone 4 for around $300. Does the iPhone 4 really cost that much less to produce? No. Does the 5c really cost that much more to manufacture than an iPad mini? No. This is all about maximizing their profits.

Apple makes a killing on their phones. They have significantly higher profit margins than their competitors, and they get the carriers to subsidize a higher portion of the largess. This has a downside for them though. In developing markets where most people are on pre-paid plans and for people like me who would rather pay $35 instead of $100 a month for cellphone service, the iPhone looks overpriced. Apple doesn't want to lower their unlocked price because it would spoil their sweet deal with the carriers. However, this means in terms of market share, Android is going to keep kicking Apple's butt.

Why bother making a cheap phone, if it isn't cheap? For a $100 more, I'd rather get the 5s. The price differential between the two seems inadequate to make up for the difference in quality and features.

And whose whose point was this? Was it Apple's. or was it the numerous commentators who said that it was the whole point? Do these people actually know anything? No, they don't. But this phone is $100 cheaper from the beginning, and that's an important thing. Previously, Apple had to work with a phone that was more expensive, and bring the price down by $100 the second year as manufacturing became less expensive, while also accepting lower margins, because the cost didn't drop by that much. The 5 is discontinued, so the price is lower, but other than the aluminum back, the 5C is actually a better phone than the 5.

But now, they've got a brand new phone, and despite what some are saying, this is a brand new phone, that actually costs less to produce the first year. That means that next year, assuming Apple keeps this in the line, that Apple will be able to drop the price further, without losing margins, or, drop it even further than that with the same decreased margins as they have been doing.

Apple couldn't keep the 5 in the line this year and have the 5C, because the 5C likely costs as much as the 5 now costs to produce, and, most importantly, the 5 doesn't have the radio to work on China Mobile's 3 and 4g, which the 5C does have. I imagine that there would be no good way to keep the 5 around.

As to costs, the 5C has a new, better FaceTime camera, a new motherboard, a new multiband radio which has more bands than any other non Apple smartphone, and a larger battery. So, you see, this is an entirely new phone, despite using the same SoC. so manufacturing costs are higher than they would be with a recycled 5 interior in a cheaper case. And that cheaper case isn't THAT much cheaper.

Another thing you've said that isn't true is about subsidies. It's been shown that Samsung gets even higher subsidies for their top line Galaxy S series.
post #127 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yep!

Recent articles have suggested that the "sweet spot" was the equivalent of US $489 ($549 5C entry model) for the masses in BRIC countries.

They missed that by $60 or 12%.


Likely, Apple sells the $549 phone to resellers for $400-$450 (based on volume), net 30.

So, an agile, high-volume, high-turnover ( > 12 turns) reseller could hit the sweet spot and make a tidy profit -- no cash outlay and just ring up the sales.

In addition, Apple and some resellers have been experimenting with low or 0% financing -- which, in effect, could raise the sweet spot.


My first thought was that Apple missed the boat on the 5C pricing and will lower the price if/when it doesn't meet sales objectives (as they did with the original iPhone).

On reflection, I think Apple knows exactly what they are doing:
  1. Apple will make sales and margin objectives
  2. Resellers will set the "street price"
  3. Consumers will get a top-quality iPhone at an acceptable "sweet spot" price

Most people don't understand manufacturing. I kept questioning the logic behind the numbers I've been reading about, which were all the way from $300-499. Much of that was just a matter of ignorance about what can be done. They look at cheap Android phones, and say that apple can do that too. Well, yes, they can do that too. But to what point? I would have loved to see an iPhone for $350 contract free. Imagine how many they would sell?

But it can't be done. While no one seriously expects those cheap Android phones to work well, or to support many of the features the high end phones support. Apple doesn't have the luxury of going that route. All of their new phones must, almost by definition, support ALL of the features of new software, and hardware. They must. And that means that while a three year old 4 is still a viable phone, going by the numbers sold, a newly introduced model can't have the excuse of being old hardware. The A6 is still pretty fast, though not equal to the newest top line competitors. But Apple couldn't put the hardware from the 4, or even the 4S into a new phone.

But the 5C is an entirely new phone, and that needs to be understood. Pretty much the only thing that's been recycled is the A6 SoC, and the front glass and rear camera. New FaceTime camera, new motherboard, new radio, larger battery. That's a new phone, with R&D costs as well. $549 seems about right.

I can't figure out how they could have made it cheaper, without actually making it cheap, And a stainless steel reinforcing plate doubling as an antenna bonded to a hard coated polycarbonate back isn't cheap. The abs plastic backs many other phones use are cheaper, and some phones use even cheaper materials.

And then, one last thing that is very important in the Apple world—support. As everyone should know by now, Android models are very poorly supported. Even Nexus models are not getting all the software upgrades anymore. But Apple seems committed to give software upgrades for three years. If they used older hardware than they did, they couldn't do that. They almost assuredly calculated that into what they needed to do. So we should see updates long after the current 5c is discontinued, as we've seen with all other iPhones.
post #128 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkell31 View Post

A 15% discount over the high end phone isnt nearly enough to attract a different group of buyers.  Promise of China Mobile deal coming and the stock is still getting hammered because everyone realizes the 5c is going to fail as a lower priced entry.  Bottom line will it drive revenue and EPS growth?  Nope.

"Everyone realizes". Really? Everyone? Perhaps people shouldn't be so quick to make foolish statements like that until after the phone has been on sale for at least a month or two. Besides who says its a lower priced entry? Maybe the $100 difference doesn't seem to be that much to you, but it might be considerable to others. $100 is a fair amount to a lot of people. It could be enough to change people's minds. Apple has more important things to think about that how low they can go.
post #129 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

The video said you can use your fingerprint to make iTunes purchases.  The guy in the video also said fingerprints are stored only on the phone's CPU, not iCloud or anywhere else.  If that is the case, how do the systems on the other end know the fingerprint is valid?  For functions other than unlocking the phone, does a fingerprint serve as direct authentication, or does it simply work to unlock an existing password?

Apple has said that the fingerprint itself isn't stored on the phone either. Data about the fingerprint is stored in a locked portion of the chip, something akin to Intel's secure computing module in their x86 chips. What is sent out is an encrypted password like bit of data. I'm not sure if this data is the same every time, or is somehow changed each time. That hasn't been made clear yet.
post #130 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple has said that the fingerprint itself isn't stored on the phone either. Data about the fingerprint is stored in a locked portion of the chip, something akin to Intel's secure computing module in their x86 chips. What is sent out is an encrypted password like bit of data. I'm not sure if this data is the same every time, or is somehow changed each time. That hasn't been made clear yet.

But the chip is in the phone, is it not? It's kept in a secure location, and there's probably a complex algorithm that changes the data each time.
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post #131 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The way I understand it:
  1. TouchID unlocks the device by verifying the scanned fingerprint against a fingerprint profile encrypted and stored in a secure area of the A7 (PRAM or SSD).
  2. Apparently, if you use and pass the fingerprint scan the app requiring access to the iTunes Store retrieves your [securely] stored iTunes Password and sign you directly onto the store -- you don't see the iTunes sign on screen.

I see no reason why Apple couldn't allow 3rd-party sites to be aware that the user has passed the fingerprint scan and follow the same procedure to directly login to their site.

Another consideration would be to have above capability work with BLE or Point-to-Point WiFi so you could do things when the Internet is not available or not needed -- unlock your front door or car, pay for groceries, etc.

Apple is being conservative here in the beginning. If I were them, I would do as they are doing, and tie it to their own systems for some time. That way, they can do the QA and security testing. Once they are certain it would be secure enough, they could parse it to another company if required. For something as delicate as this they need to be as close to 100% certain that nothing will go wrong. We all know that this is going to be pounced on. Already, individuals and security firms have said that as soon as the phone goes on sale they will be doing their hardest to break the security.
post #132 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz_ball View Post

What I want to know about the fingerprint censor is did they implement it as an either/or security feature or if it supports 2-factor security: thumbprint + code? If it is Either thumbprint OR Code, then it's a total "meh" cause then all I need to do is fall asleep around my friends and they're in my phone posting crap on my FB as if it were me. I mean I'm sure they have it setup to do print or code, but I will only be excited if I can set it up to be print AND code.

And you are such a heavy sleeper that your friends could take the phone from you, grab your hand, and stick your finger on the button? That's pretty bad. And if you have such stupid friends, I suggest that your problem would be solved by getting an entirely new batch of intelligent friends who respect your privacy.

I did read somewhere that Apple said that you could use both print and pin. Don't know if that's true, or for special purposes.
post #133 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

But the chip is in the phone, is it not? It's kept in a secure location, and there's probably a complex algorithm that changes the data each time.

Yes. The chip is part of the Soc, I believe.
post #134 of 135
C'mon, 64-bit ARM CPU, M7 chip, true tone flash, better camera with more options, a new iPhone model next to it, etc... people need to quit whining.
Edited by Corax - 9/15/13 at 6:05pm
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post #135 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Another consideration would be to have above capability work with BLE or Point-to-Point WiFi so you could do things when the Internet is not available or not needed -- unlock your front door or car, pay for groceries, etc.

This exactly is what I'm looking for! 1smile.gif)
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