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post #81 of 112
Saw this graphic on the Verge. Huge shifts downwards in Apple's stock price after a product announcement is par for the course. lol.gif

apple-shifts.jpg
post #82 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post
You people make me laugh. Thank god none of you have sensitive positions in marketing or business in general.

Stop the tripe, and engage in a serious discussion, if you can. Otherwise, get lost.

 

People love the products, and people own the company's stock. Deal with it.


Edited by anantksundaram - 9/11/13 at 9:07am
post #83 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Of course. But since that won't happen, every moron screaming the the 5C is overpriced will be automatically silenced, and will never ever chime in to admit how pathetically wrong they were. It is almost embarrassing how uneducated and uninformed these blog whiners are. Almost no one with real marketing or business experience, at all. Just whiny tech-watchers.
I'd like to believe it won't happen but I don't have a lot of confidence in Phill Schiller and the marketing team. And Apple needs to do something to drown out the negativity.
post #84 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

With the kind of volumes Apple sells -- and therefore of components they purchase -- I would have expected the much-vaunted economies of scale and supply chain efficiencies to kick in quite solidly by now, allowing Cook to make an aggressive pricing move. Indeed, operations and supply chain efficiencies were Cook's strong suit, as Jobs's super-successful COO.

 

That has kicked in already- those savings are offset by other higher priced components and manufacturing costs. You don't think the A6 and A7 were developed and made for free do you? Apple just spent almost $400 million to put a sensor under the home button of ONE model of phone. Who else does that? There are few other companies that would.

 

Tim Cook is doing a brilliant job of maximizing costs and always has. The design of the 5C is going to help push costs down, and eventually prices as well. Just wait and see. Apple wouldn't have released a second model unless they saw a need for it. The iPhone 5 will be the first iPhone where Apple is just going to have to eat the costs - probably turned out to a bigger pain than they originally planned for. You can bet the iPhone 6 will be designed around making it extremely easy to assemble but still be just as refined a product.

 

The moment Apple makes an aggressive pricing move, is the moment we all start worrying.

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #85 of 112
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
apple-shifts.jpg


Huh. The larger the fall, the greater the success and impact. 

 

Hopefully Apple's stock keeps falling right now.

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post #86 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post
 

That has kicked in already- those savings are offset by other higher priced components and manufacturing costs. You don't think the A6 and A7 were developed and made for free do you? Apple just spent almost $400 million to put a sensor under the home button of ONE model of phone. Who else does that? There are few other companies that would.

 

Tim Cook is doing a brilliant job of maximizing costs and always has. The design of the 5C is going to help push costs down, and eventually prices as well. Just wait and see. Apple wouldn't have released a second model unless they saw a need for it. The iPhone 5 will be the first iPhone where Apple is just going to have to eat the costs - probably turned out to a bigger pain than they originally planned for. You can bet the iPhone 6 will be designed around making it extremely easy to assemble but still be just as refined a product.

 

The moment Apple makes an aggressive pricing move, is the moment we all start worrying.

What does anything I said have to with the A7? Perhaps you should go back and re-read.

 

On the issue of 'worrying' about 'aggressive pricing,' look at the graph some posted above: especially, on the ONE product announcement that resulted in a stock price bump. 'Nuff said.

 

Incidentally, I think you mean 'minimizing costs.'

post #87 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkell31 View Post

Good timing potentially four months after the new models are released and mostly outside the affordability of the Chinese consumer.  No wonder the stock is continuing to get hammered.

Survey finds China's 'sweet spot' for Apple 'iPhone 5C' priced at $486

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/08/20/survey-finds-chinas-sweet-spot-for-apple-iphone-5c-priced-at-486

   5C Price  -  Sweet spot

   US $549  -  US $486       ==   US $63  ==  13% over "sweet spot"


I don't know about China resellers, but in the US the reseller, likely, pays Apple $400-$450 for the $549 iPhone 5C based on volume. And, the payment terms are normally net 30 days.

A high-volume reseller could hit the customer "sweet spot" price and still make a profit consistent with other consumer electronics -- $86 = 21% markup from $400.

Since the iPhones are unlocked and sell themselves -- the reseller doesn't have to do anything but hang a few signs, stock the shelves and ring up the sales. If the reseller knows what they are doing, they will turn their inventory often enough that they will have positive cash flow.
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post #88 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

To say that 'marketshare for marketshare's sake is meaningless' is a truism.

 

With the kind of volumes Apple sells -- and therefore of components they purchase -- I would have expected the much-vaunted economies of scale and supply chain efficiencies to kick in quite solidly by now, allowing Cook to make an aggressive pricing move. Indeed, operations and supply chain efficiencies were Cook's strong suit, as Jobs's super-successful COO.

 

What I am finding surprising -- while not minimizing the challenges associated with the sheer volumes involved -- is how misplaced the faith in Cook on that front (including on my part) has turned out to be thus far. Coming on top of a set of botched iMac introductions, supply shortages, dramatically slowed (and bunched) product intro schedules, the 5C pricing and features (e.g., only 32GB?) is quite unimpressive. At least, for me.

 

Don't get me wrong: the 5S is a huge leap (although I am slightly disappointed at the lack of the 128GB).

I agree re: botched iMac launch, weirdly rearranged product schedule. But, perhaps, these issues are bound to emerge when your top operations guy is no longer just running manufacturing operations, but has a whole company to run.

 

As for 5C pricing, let's wait and see. I get the feeling that Apple is pretty confident this will become their top seller by a large margin.

 

The 32 GB limit is typical of Apple. They won't deviate from the $100 increment when doubling storage, and imposes artificial ceilings on their non-premium offerings. We've been seeing this for a decade now.

post #89 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Someone on the Verge forums made an intersting observation: that the 5C might be a transitional product and next year it becomes the low end and the 5S doesn't go plastic. Of course the question then might be why didn't Apple get rid of the 4S and replace it with the 5C and keep the 5 as the mid-range. I think we know why, but my guess is that's what Wall Street wanted. Until of course Apple reported quarterly results and margins and profits were down.

Actually, I think I know why.  They needed the new radio frequency chips that would work globally including on China Telecom and the iPhone 5 didn't have it.  So they had to release new phones that would work on China Mobile.  They kept the 4S because there wasn't enough differentiation between the 5C and the 5. 

post #90 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post
 

They finally got the contract to be on the network, but too bad they forgot to bring the "inexpensive" phone they need to succeed in that market. 

 

 

Apple is still selling as many devices as they can make for months after their release. Why lower prices and overwhelm the supply chain perpetually?

 

You seem to be measuring "success" as "taking most of the market". That's fine, but it isn't something any company can do all at once and remain healthy. 

 

China Mobile has 740mm customers, 138mm smartphone users (and growing). If Apple released a "cheap" phone into that market, they'd have to mass-produce crappy, high-volume junk (akin to Samsung's "cheap crap" so-called 'mid-range smartphones') just to keep up.

 

Apple isn't about appealing to the general mass-market with their handsets. Not all at once, anyway. Next year, when the iPhone 6 releases, we'll see the 5C drop into that very range you're talking about. They'll have already captured a healthy chunk of CM's subscriber base, and poised to manageably acquire more. 

 

Their strategy is clearly about making incremental, healthy and sustainable gains in market share while maintaining profitability AND brand principles.  You only have to look to the U.S. market to see how well their strategy works. In the smartphone segment, Apple continues to increase their share, and owns nearly half that market now. It only took about five years to achieve that, from a zero point. Do you understand just how phenomenal that is? (And a fine case study of "Disruption" at its best.) 

 

China has roughly 4 times our population. Growing into a market that large must be done carefully. Apple has said time and again how important it is to their future. They have every intention of doing it right.

 

Finally, I know quite a few people in China, and get tons of 'intel' from them. Incomes are steadily increasing. The iPhone remains a highly aspirational device, and these new models will only make it more so. The buzz around them has been huge. There's NO doubt they'll do quite well there.

 

I think your "analysis" of the situation is rather shallow and shortsighted. Do you understand why I think so?


Edited by tribalogical - 9/11/13 at 9:45am
post #91 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

What does anything I said have to with the A7? Perhaps you should go back and re-read.

 

On the issue of 'worrying' about 'aggressive pricing,' look at the graph some posted above: especially, on the ONE product announcement that resulted in a stock price bump. 'Nuff said.

 

Incidentally, I think you mean 'minimizing costs.'

 

You mentioned economies of scale... that prices should come down.

 

I argued that those savings are offset by the use of higher priced custom components and manufacturing costs.

 

Maybe you should re-read what I wrote?

 

No, "maximizing costs" is appropriate - it means you get the most for your money. "Minimizing costs" means to spend less. One applies to money already spent, the other is how much you're willing to spend.


Edited by mjtomlin - 9/11/13 at 9:55am
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #92 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


What did Walter say?

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?play=1&video=3000197443

Walter is spewing total BS!


How soon we forget:



This was the same memorable event that introduced the iPod "leather" case...
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post #93 of 112
To the market share trolls, iOS runs on iPads and iPod touches. Devs know this and love the iUser spending habits.
post #94 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post


Personally, I'm rather proud of how they "unapologetically" refused to sell a cheaper iPhone.

IMO, by judging Apple with the optics of the stock market, we risk losing sight of what this company is about. I appreciate, respect that some here have much invested. But going against the grain is Apple's trademark, lest we forget. 

First, 'less expensive' does not equal 'cheap.'

Second, I truly wish Apple would 'go against the grain' some more, and break a few molds. What we're seeing out of this team -- so far -- is conservatism.

I think you underestimate the courage, skill and risk... yes risk -- that it took to upgrade iOS 7 to 64-bit and maintain 32-bit compatibility -- without missing a beat. This easily could have been a disaster! It took Microsoft years to upgrade Windows to 64-bit.

And 64-bit iOS provides tremendous advantages to iDevices for the near term and the future.

I don't know if you realize this but the gaming video shown running on the iPhone 5S outperformed any mobile gaming device and most gaming consoles.

Also, what about the daring (and risk) with: total redesign of the iOS UI... the ground-breaking design of the new Mac Pro... the release of Final Cut Pro X revolutionary features and pricing (1/5 of FCP 7)... free iWork and iLife on every new iDevice (probably Macs, too).

Hardly conservative traits, IMO!
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post #95 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Connie View Post
 

I am now convinced that Apple's refusal to make a bigger screen iPhone was a mistake. It is following almost the same strategy as BlackBerry did a few years ago, of ignoring market trends. Even if they do damage control within the next few months, the momentum they have now lost to compete with the likes of Samsung, Sony and LG will affect Apple in the long run. The short sellers are going to have a field day for the next couple of months.

 

How has Apple getting licensed for China Mobile somehow "convinced you" that not making a bigger screen is "a mistake"? I don't get the connection. As for the rest, you clearly haven't been watching Apple's market share and sales trends over time… doing 'damage control' assumes there is damage. What damage? And as for momentum, they keep posting record sales and profits quarter after quarter (net margins were down recently, but that was expected in the current climate, and far less than the rest of the market). Will you come back after their 1st quarter report and discuss this again? We can talk about how wrong you were. Will you own up to it?

post #96 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifij775 View Post

Just because the iPhone has a chip that supports China Mobile's network, doesn't mean China Mobile will sell or support it. 

The beauty of it is that other resellers can sell unlocked iPhone 5Cs at a sweet spot price -- that will run on any of China's carrier networks.
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post #97 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





Isn't the 4S $450 now?


 


imo $450 for a 8g 3.5" phone is insulting. The 4.7" Nexus 4 at $200 beats the 4s on almost all metric. That being said, Apple could still do good on the tablet side, the stock could be a buy around $400


That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I have a 4" iPhone 5, but I prefer the 3.5" size of the iPhone 4S (and earlier) -- better fit in a shirt pocket.

I mainly use the iPhone to make and receive occasional phone calls, texts. I have an iPad which I always have with me... so the iPhone is just a necessary evil.
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post #98 of 112
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... the iPhone 5s and iPhone 5c were both revealed to support China Mobile's TD-LTE bands ...

 

BOOM.

Sent from my iPhone Simulator

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Sent from my iPhone Simulator

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post #99 of 112
Random thought...

The AI forums have been relatively troll-free (except for a few, known, regulars) for the past month or so...

Today, it seems we are inundated with a lot of complaints from "long time Apple users, fans, supporters" and the like... Who, for some reason have just discovered AI and decided to join the forums to bash Apple and offer their unsolicited advice... They all have a relatively few posts to their name, are recently registered and totally anti Apple...

Coincidence... Hardly! How naive they must be -- to think we wouldn't notice!
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post #100 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Random thought...

The AI forums have been relatively troll-free (except for a few, known, regulars) for the past month or so...

Today, it seems we are inundated with a lot of complaints from "long time Apple users, fans, supporters" and the like... Who, for some reason have just discovered AI and decided to join the forums to bash Apple and offer their unsolicited advice... They all have a relatively few posts to their name, are recently registered and totally anti Apple...

Coincidence... Hardly! How naive they must be -- to think we wouldn't notice!

Are you just now noticing what happens after every product/service/OS announcement? Most join to spew pure hatred and rarely return.
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post #101 of 112
Every one is a Pandit here! Yes, it is a great news. Yes, the pricing of iPhone 5C for unlocked phone is high, but the question is what makes you think China Mobile iPhone consumers are going with to be buying unlocked phones. You think Apple operated out from a well? All this announcement happens in the vacuum? Tim Cook has been visiting China lately. Maybe, the China Mobile customer might be getting those iPhone 5Cs at $99 rates. Maybe China Mobile is also looking at the No payment down model like AT&T is doing and the model AirTel India has been doing for years.

This is great news and all those people who downgraded AAPL is going to change the tune when the phone hits the street (even in China). Not like they haven't done so before.
post #102 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

 
What does anything I said have to with the A7? Perhaps you should go back and re-read.

On the issue of 'worrying' about 'aggressive pricing,' look at the graph some posted above: especially, on the ONE product announcement that resulted in a stock price bump. 'Nuff said.

Incidentally, I think you mean 'minimizing costs.'

You mentioned economies of scale... that prices should come down.

I argued that those savings are offset by the use of higher priced custom components and manufacturing costs.

Maybe you should re-read what I wrote?

No, "maximizing costs" is appropriate - it means you get the most for your money. "Minimizing costs" means to spend less. One applies to money already spent, the other is how much you're willing to spend.


I think "minimizing" costs is the appropriate goal -- or "maximizing" results or profits.

It depends on the perspective:

1) if you have $100 to spend (your cost), you want to maximize the number or quality of the things you buy.

2) If you need to build 3 houses to sell for $100,000 you want to minimize your costs and maximize your profits (or quality, brand, etc.).

3) if you can minimize your costs and maintain the same quality you may be able to maximize your market share.
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post #103 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

To the market share trolls, iOS runs on iPads and iPod touches. Devs know this and love the iUser spending habits.

Bingo!

And don't forget the AppleTV and Content creators/developers!
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post #104 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Random thought...

The AI forums have been relatively troll-free (except for a few, known, regulars) for the past month or so...

Today, it seems we are inundated with a lot of complaints from "long time Apple users, fans, supporters" and the like... Who, for some reason have just discovered AI and decided to join the forums to bash Apple and offer their unsolicited advice... They all have a relatively few posts to their name, are recently registered and totally anti Apple...

Coincidence... Hardly! How naive they must be -- to think we wouldn't notice!

Are you just now noticing what happens after every product/service/OS announcement? Most join to spew pure hatred and rarely return.

Nah! Just pointing it out to the offenders...


I particularly like the AI Noobs with minimal posts who join together in a tag-team to ping-pong posts supporting each's negative agenda!


This high level of "troll activity" indicates to me -- that the fans/shills of Apple competitors must be really frightened about what Apple announced yesterday.
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post #105 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post
 

I argued that those savings are offset by the use of higher priced custom components and manufacturing costs.

You brought up the A7. That's only relevant for the 5S. I was talking solely about the 5C (which still has the A6).

 

As I said, read again.

post #106 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post
 
 
I think you underestimate the courage, skill and risk... yes risk -- that it took to upgrade iOS 7 to 64-bit.....

Again, I was talking about the 5C not the 5S. As far as I know, the 5C still has a 32-bit chip, only the 5S has the 64-bit.

post #107 of 112

Let me summarize all this B.S.

1 - Share price falling: if you think it's just because of the 5c pricing or some other single factor, there are many, many factors, the biggest one...big fish traders who rely on psychological/emotional reaction to news and media.

2 - Pricing of the 5c: if you think you know better (than Apple) about pricing strategies.  Instead, try to be more of a student of this game than a spoiled arrogant brat.  This is a long term strategy, one that positions Apple in fundamentally strong ways, not one that is played with one-trick ponies.

3 - End game of Apple: if you think you know the end game.  I don't think Apple is anything like the Apple of old, RIM, MS or some <fill in the blank> car company.  This is a new paradigm...hardware, software, end to end platform, content delivery, financial transactional BEAST!!

 

Yes, Apple has made mistakes and will continue to make mistakes.  But I compare Apple to a child.  Each year, there will be mistakes made that will set it BACK 1 or 2 STEPS.  But before you know it, it will grow from a little immature baby to a strong powerful being.  That's my prediction.  Or it may be doomed as so many of you think /s.

post #108 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


To garner market share. Apple has been downgraded by 3 banks today despite the china mobile deal. The stock market wants apple to surrender margin for share, it is a platform war after all. Android is fast becoming the developer first option here in Europe. America may be an iOS bubble. The world isn't. And why wouldn't apple compete?

One reason android is the 'first option' is that the delivery time for an app across multiple platforms is so long....  You can start your iOS development much much later and still release at the same time.

 

 ;-)

post #109 of 112
[
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

That's just not been true since 2001. The most remarkable thing about Apple has been its willingness to kill off the old to replace with the new, as long as the customer and the cash flow stayed with the company (recall what they did with the Nano?). The current conservatism is what many people are reacting negatively to.

Listening to Walter Isaacson this morning on CNBC came as a sad revelation, since I found myself agreeing with him (I am sure they'll upload the clip in the next hour or so).

Jesus, what a horrible experience watching that CNBC clip, these blockheads who've never seen what a tab of acid looks like (except for Walter, the hippest among them) yammering about Apple without Steve Jobs.

A sad commentary on everybody's fear of following the visionary path that Steve marked out. I'm pretty sure he infused everybody susceptible around him with the Tao of inventing as he found it. We won't know this for sure for a few more years when we go to the next step beyond post-PC.

Edit: removed a little personal attack, with apologies.
Edited by Flaneur - 9/11/13 at 1:10pm
post #110 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I have a 4" iPhone 5, but I prefer the 3.5" size of the iPhone 4S (and earlier) -- better fit in a shirt pocket.

I mainly use the iPhone to make and receive occasional phone calls, texts. I have an iPad which I always have with me... so the iPhone is just a necessary evil.

Exactly. As great as it would be to have the 5S, or C for that matter, the 4S is a better size for portability. I'm going to get another one while they last.
post #111 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

[
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

That's just not been true since 2001. The most remarkable thing about Apple has been its willingness to kill off the old to replace with the new, as long as the customer and the cash flow stayed with the company (recall what they did with the Nano?). The current conservatism is what many people are reacting negatively to.

Listening to Walter Isaacson this morning on CNBC came as a sad revelation, since I found myself agreeing with him (I am sure they'll upload the clip in the next hour or so).

Jesus, what a horrible experience watching that CNBC clip, these blockheads who've never seen what a tab of acid looks like (except for Walter, the hippest among them) yammering about Apple without Steve Jobs.

A sad commentary on everybody's fear of following the visionary path that Steve marked out. I'm pretty sure he infused everybody susceptible around him with the Tao of inventing as he found it. We won't know this for sure for a few more years when we go to the next step beyond post-PC.

Edit: removed a little personal attack, with apologies.

I am somewhat more willing to give the benefit of doubt to someone that Steve Jobs picked and trusted to be his authorized, no-holds-barred biographer -- surely a fairly intimate, far-reaching decision -- than you are.
post #112 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkell31 View Post
 

Perfect?  Maybe 5% of the people on China Mobile will buy a phone in that price range. Of that 5% how many will pick an iPhone?  1 or 2 percent?

 

The reason the stock is tanking is the 5c isn't going to gain Apple any substantial penetration increase (ie revenue increase) and with nothing else announced no reason to expect the EPS to increase.

 

The reality is EPS could be $30 this time next year.  That's a big number, but not big enough to sustain the sock price.  Next quarter should look good with both phones being available everywhere for part of September, and then there is the holiday quarter, but hard to see either beating the numbers year over year.

 

5%, 1%, 2%.....Pulling numbers out of your rear-end.

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