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Shares of Apple slide, analysts cut targets in disappointment over iPhone 5c pricing - Page 3

post #81 of 297
My one and only fear with all this would be if Apple started to do things the way WS wants.
post #82 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

no, 'is'. Even at today's low price, the stock is higher than it was at any time during Jobs' leadership.

 

Nagromme said "has been 'way' higher".

 

So yes... has been.

 

Higher now, yes... but not 'way" higher.

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post #83 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 

The street always give the wrong reason of why a stock goes up or down.  AAPL began dropping yesterday after 11AM PT when the show was over.  The price of 3C was announced much earlier.  It seems the investors was waiting for the one last thing that is a 5 inch iPhone.  Apple has missed a huge market which is every bigger than iPhone.  The combined sales of larger smartphones are bigger than iPhone.  With a bigger iPhone Apple can resume growth. 

 

 

a) Apple hasn't stopped growing, so there's nothing to "resume".

 

b) How about providing a credible link backing your claim that "larger-screened smartphones are outselling iPhone"? (While it's true that the combined sales of the entire global smartphone market is larger than Apple iPhone alone, the 'large screen' smartphones are only a small percentage of that total.)  

 

From what I've read, 5-inch phones don't sell nearly as well as the rest of their smaller counterparts. There's a reason Samsung scrambled to release a smaller 4" version of the GS4, not long after reports came out that sales of the larger version were flat.

 

I think you're projecting your own assumptions using a false narrative here...

post #84 of 297
It's all about price elasticity. If Apple cuts its margins from 40% to 20% it has to sell twice as many phones to make the same profit. Whilst it can sell phones at high margins it will. Only when it struggles to sell enough phones will it cut its margins.
post #85 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

I think the 5S will sell as well if not better than the 5... but I think the 5C needs to be bumped down at least $20, but no more than $30.

 

To me, $130 difference sounds much more than $100 difference.

 

That's the beauty of these 5C phones.  They can easily drop the price $50 if they need to.  They could never do that with the difficult manufacturing costs of the 5.  In fact I'm almost 100% sure that Apple will drop the price of the 5C in China/India after the initial sales push.  Or they will sell the phones cheaper to carriers like China Mobile and have them subsidize the phones.  In the USA there is no reason to drop the price below $99 subsidize.

post #86 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

 

You know,  If Apple can sales its whole production at current price, why they need to have a cheap product? Apple doesn't need to be big in China, they doesn't care at all about making cheap products and flooding the market with no margin device like most Android mfg  about to die battling each other with poor product. 

 

This.

 

This is not a race to the bottom.  It's a marathon to get high value customers into your ecosystem.

 

the 'c' line solves a couple problems

1) Apple is now committed to 'fashion' with colors and phone covers (remember antenna-gate, and all the Apple Execs pulled their 4's out and not one had a case?... I bet Every apple exec in China will have a 5c with a colorful case)

2) its plastic.  Minor changes in packaging (color!) is a lot cheaper to push into the production line.   Meaning they can drive changes faster... I wouldn't be surprised that a new 'c' device is out every year, if not more frequently (my guess is the 'C's will update every 6-8 months)

3) Price.  $100 isn't a lot, but with #1 above, and the ability to push new colors and configs (able to get cheaper memory/battery parts... push a change in the line), if they can keep their margins, then more 'middle class' people can afford them (and that's where the people are).... Remember... for "MOST" people... you could give them a free phone, and they couldn't afford to use it because of Cell/Data costs.  Why even try?  A phone is useless without at least a data plan, and at some point you don't have enough money to afford a $300 phone and a $50/month plan... Will lowering the price to $250 make a difference?  And how good is an iPhone that only works when you plug the meter.  You may as well buy an iPad mini.... (DING DING DING DING).

post #87 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla View Post
 

I guess September 10, 2013 will be known as day when the post-Steve-Era began.

 

Apple is now run by a bunch of out-of-touch, rich, middle-aged, white, males.

 

And guess what -- it shows!

 

pretty sure you will get banned before the sun sets.

post #88 of 297

Just read my posts in this thread... I'm starting to sound like DED.... (sigh)...

 

Back to work.

post #89 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla View Post
 

I guess September 10, 2013 will be known as day when the post-Steve-Era began.

 

Apple is now run by a bunch of out-of-touch, rich, middle-aged, white, males.

 

And guess what -- it shows!

 

What a dumb comment!

 

Rich, white, middle-aged males rule, and I am working on becoming one. I'm already white (though I did get a bit darker this summer), and I'm working on the rich part.:lol:

post #90 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

That's the beauty of these 5C phones.  They can easily drop the price $50 if they need to.  They could never do that with the difficult manufacturing costs of the 5.  In fact I'm almost 100% sure that Apple will drop the price of the 5C in China/India after the initial sales push.  Or they will sell the phones cheaper to carriers like China Mobile and have them subsidize the phones.  In the USA there is no reason to drop the price below $99 subsidize.
I suppose Tim could go into Jony's office and tell him he needs to start designing things that are cheaper to manufacture. But that would be scary and really prove that Tim is just a bean counter. Perhaps Apple set the price so the had room to lower it if needed. And I could see them lowering it in emerging markets. One reason I think the mini was priced at $329 was so Apple could later add retina to it without increasing the price. Then they can reduce the price of the non retina mini and there are no price increases to announce.
post #91 of 297

And if Apple HAD cut the margins on the phone, the stock would have gone down because of the reduced margins.   When Apple announced earnings in which margins declined slightly, the stock has dropped in the past.  The market has to make up its mind:  does it  want market share or does it want margin?

 

In the U.S., the vast majority of people buy a subsidized phone, so the unsubsidized price is irrelevant to the consumer.    In countries like China, I've never understood how anyone in the middle-class ever bought an iPhone or similar device, subsidized or not, but obviously the rising middle-class (and certainly the upper class) has bought iPhones in the past, so they'll continue to buy them at lower, if not the ideal, price.

 

Besides, there's nothing that says Apple can't reduce the price in China, India and other 3rd world countries.

 

As for the phone features themselves, I think the 5s is impressive, although not impressive enough for me to have to pay full freight to upgrade my 5.   But what people need to remember is that Apple labeled these as "iPhone 5x's" not "iPhone 6x".   It was always meant to be an iterative update.   For an iterative update, the addition of the fingerprint sensor and the upgraded processor on the 5s is pretty good, IMO.    I don't think the market even considers the supposedly improved performance of the 5s.   They just think, "well it looks pretty much the same."   They also don't seem to consider that most of the functionality that the user sees is in the OS, not the hardware.

 

I think these phones will do fine.   And Android phones will also continue to do fine. 

post #92 of 297
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

…after many months of rumors of the plastic iPhone were all but confirmed, I had accepted that it was coming and believed that Apple was going to make a play for greater marketshare. 

 

That's your problem. The only error Apple can make is to listen to analysts. In this instance, they did not. Therefore they will succeed. Hooray.

 
But with the pricing of the 5c, that is not going to happen, so I'm not even sure why the 5c exists. 

 

See the middle part of: http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/159466/first-look-apples-new-iphone-5s-and-5c/160#post_2394440

 

Ignore the tone, of course, since it's not directed at you.

 

Originally Posted by auxio View Post

Tallest, you seem to be forgetting that, in almost every case where analysts and tech media have slammed Apple's new products, they've gone on to sell in record numbers.  Just treat it as a sign that it's going to be another record-breaking year for Apple.

 

No, of course! Absolutely these products will succeed tremendously. The point is no one gets punished for lying or being worthless. The analysts who get it wrong need to be fired. That will teach the others to stop lying.

 

Originally Posted by guerilla
[post]

 

Don't you have a phone orgy to attend?

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post #93 of 297
Whatever price one starts at, you can't raise it later and expect good results. However, if you are off some you can always come up with a REASON to drop the price a bit. Business does this all the time. Funny thing though, you can read some of these comments and tell, immediately, those who have never run a business! One fellow even suggested that bis BIAS was showing by what he wanted and projecting that onto everyone else's desires. But, I have always gone by ONE rule. If I don't like the item, or the price, or some feature, as reported by the "masses" I just don't buy it. A phone is not indispensable to living though many thing they are and submit some of the most outlandish reasons for why they have one--yet, before cell phones they can't give a cogent or coherent reason on how they handled things back then. And don't give me the "things change" argument. I lost my phone a couple days ago, I will have it back, probably this week... guess what? It's great!
post #94 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

"still' being the operative word.

... but not "way" higher.



Almost like that "Jobs would never..." chestnut. No one said Apple wouldn't reach 700 with Jobs. The fact is the stock never did under Jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I think the 5S will sell as well if not better than the 5... but I think the 5C needs to be bumped down at least $20, but no more than $30.

To me, $130 difference sounds much more than $100 difference.

That sure hurt the iPad mini. Also it's a play for customers to shell out the additional $100 to get the 5S.
post #95 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla View Post
 

I guess September 10, 2013 will be known as day when the post-Steve-Jobs-Era began.

 

Apple is now run by a bunch of out-of-touch, rich, middle-aged, white, males.

 

And guess what -- it shows!

 

Really.   What's wrong or out of touch about the iPhone 5s?     Looks like a really fine phone to me and I think it will do really well, especially with users who are still using a 4s or earlier model.    As I posted earlier, this was never meant to be anything more than an iterative update and I think this phone far exceeded that.   If it was meant to be more, it would have been called the iPhone6.  

 

I think technology advances have spoiled people.    My first electronic calculator cost about $200 (about $1000 in 2013 dollars) - the same price as a subsidized iPhone 5s.

post #96 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

That's your problem. The only error Apple can make is to listen to analysts. In this instance, they did not. Therefore they will succeed. Hooray.

 

 

That is true. Apple never did announce what their exact intention or pricing was going to be.

 

However, I still question why the phone was made, since it is the first time that Apple has released two new models, and they're both similarly priced.

 

Well, I guess it will be a big hit with people who like colors and people who like plastic and people who do not want all of the latest and greatest features found on the 5s.

post #97 of 297

I like Jon Fortt point that the cheap iphone could be the watch. The same way people wanted Apple to make netbooks but instead came out with the ipad.

 

That being said, I wish they could offer a bigger screen model. I have no choice to renew my 4s for a Nexus 4 which better fits my needs.  at $250, its not a big risk and its going to be paid in 6 months on the money I save on the plan alone.

post #98 of 297
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

they're both similarly priced.

 

They're priced the same as the top two models Apple released for the past four years.

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post #99 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

... I love how people pull out this old chestnut as if it means something. Like AAPL would never have reached $700 under Steve. All I see is a stock that is running out of steam... and, in my opinion, Steve's steam. If the analysts are right this time then expect a drubbing on AAPL in the new year...

The general sentiment, however, is that these analysts are always wrong. In fact, quite a few investors are currently salivating over AAPL's low value, so they don't seem to give a rat's ass about what these analysts claim...
Edited by basjhj - 9/11/13 at 1:11pm
post #100 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

They're priced the same as the top two models Apple released for the past four years.

 

Yes, that's true. Though this year is the first time that Apple actually made a brand new phone to replace the number two phone.

post #101 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

This pricing seems very shortsighted. They seem to want to maintain their extremely high profit margins at the cost of losing market share and customers.
This just isn't an issue of Apple making up prices all on its own. They have business deals with carriers all over the world, the unlocked price is to encourage customers into carrier contracts. This should be pretty obvious.
Quote:
I didn't agree with some idiot analysts that suggested it should sell around $300 but I do think they could have still made a very hefty profit at $459 unlocked.
That is a certainty but it would also make negotiations with the various carriers more difficult.
Quote:
There is a big middle ground between $300 and $549. That is not cheap by any means but would at least have been more attainable to tens of millions more consumers than the $549 here in the U.S. or the $733 price it will be sold at unlocked in China.
You are way too focused on off contract pricing which is of limited interest to most customers.
Quote:
They made absolutely no concession in pricing and just repeated the previous pricing model and stuck last years phone in a plastic shell. As a stockholder I really hope I am proven wrong and it sells beyond the wildest expectations in BRIC type countries and in the 1st world as well but I just don't see that many Chinese paying $733 for this iPhone.
I think Apples goal here is something that sells like hotcakes in the good ole USA.
Quote:
The ones on China Mobile that desperately want an iPhone will now likely just pay a little more to get the 5S instead. People worried that the 5C would cannibalize sales. The reality id it appears the 5S will cannibalize sales from the 5C since they are priced so close.
If anybody out there desperately wants an iPhone they have mental problems. Seriously dude, desperate people are not the people you want as customers.
Quote:
But like 2 previous posters said I think this pricing might have been necessary because this is a transition year. next year they will be able to offer the 5C for $449 along with a full sized iPhone model addition. A larger iPhone along with a cheaper one that also offers LTE will allow Apple to grow. The question is whether they waited too late and now so many people are locked into the Android ecosystem if these people can be pulled in or not. Switching ecosystems is not an easy process especially for many games which will not transfer progress for example.

Android doesn't have an ecosystem, at least not one that means anything in comparison to Apples. Further games are throw aways on these platforms.
post #102 of 297

Too many people think that because they wouldn't a 5C instead of 5S because of a mere $100 difference, simply do not understand the market.

 

Lots of people will opt for the 5C over the 5S. For many, it will be an easy decision...especially in a month or two when we start seeing the occasional discount down to $49 from some retailers.

 

I expect to see 35% of iPhone sales to be 5S over the next year, while 65% will be 5C & 4S.

post #103 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post
You are way too focused on off contract pricing which is of limited interest to most customers.

 

If you're talking about the US, then you are correct, but worldwide, it is a different story.

post #104 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Yes, that's true. Though this year is the first time that Apple actually made a brand new phone to replace the number two phone.

It's only a brand new outer shell.

Off topic: that gold iPhone is beautiful.
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post #105 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Munster was expecting Apple to sell 50 million $300 iPhones in 2014, growing to 100 million in 2015, with 15 percent gross margin.

Oh its so rich! Instead, Apple will:

Sell 40 million $550 iPhones, growing to 90 million in 2015, with a 40% percent gross margin.

AKA, Apple makes a crap load more money than the idiot's prediction, and sells almost as many phones.

Bull. Munster understands mobile demand. You don't. He's basically saying that Apple is leaving both money and market share on the table. The baboonery in here doesn't matter - it's full of dolts who don't understand the market. The analysts and the market - the owners of the company - are selling.

What is with you dolts? Is there anything that apple would do that you would criticise?

This decision was wrong and they will probably reverse course and lower prices in the new year, possibly halting sales of the 4S.
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post #106 of 297
If I could have a half hour of Tim Cook's time I'd ask him why apple let the cheap iPhone rumors/analysis go on without correcting it through back channels, anonymous sources etc. Apple could easily have leaked something to WSJ or Bloomberg indicating the phone wouldn't be as cheap as people were expecting. Why they allowed the iPhone 5C is for cheap rumors to stand is beyond me.
post #107 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Too many people think that because they wouldn't a 5C instead of 5S because of a mere $100 difference, simply do not understand the market.

Lots of people will opt for the 5C over the 5S. For many, it will be an easy decision...especially in a month or two when we start seeing the occasional discount down to $49 from some retailers.

I expect to see 35% of iPhone sales to be 5S over the next year, while 65% will be 5C & 4S.

More idiocy. The iPhone 5C costs 559 euros. That's the price. Not $49. ON A CONTRACT.

Apple needs a policy for outside the US.
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post #108 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Bull. Munster understands mobile demand. You don't. He's basically saying that Apple is leaving both money and market share on the table. The baboonery in here doesn't matter - it's full of dolts who don't understand the market. The analysts and the market - the owners of the company - are selling.

What is with you dolts? Is there anything that apple would do that you would criticise?

This decision was wrong and they will probably reverse course and lower prices in the new year, possibly halting sales of the 4S.
How can anyone take Munster seriously?
post #109 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

If I could have a half hour of Tim Cook's time I'd ask him why apple let the cheap iPhone rumors/analysis go on without correcting it through back channels, anonymous sources etc. Apple could easily have leaked something to WSJ or Bloomberg indicating the phone wouldn't be as cheap as people were expecting. Why they allowed the iPhone 5C is for cheap rumors to stand is beyond me.

I bet they didn't know what they were going to do with the price until the bean counters started to worry about margins. They probably started this project with the aim of replacing the 4s with the 5C - otherwise why bother - and they now have to maintain, accessory wise, for 2 years. That has to cost.

And I suspect Cook is head bean counter.
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post #110 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post
 

Apple will never ever be anything that resembles a full range smartphone manufacturer.  Analysts have to get this in their stubborn heads.  BMW doesn't sell to middle income third worlders.  Rolex doesn't sell to middle income third worlders.  Why do they demand that Apple sell to middle income third worlders?  Apple is an aspirational brand, that's how they make their money and they will never do anything that imperils their aspirational status.  Any growth for Apple will not come from reaching down to the lower end of markets, it will come from coming up with new aspirational products.  And only an idiot doesn't know that they are coming.

 

BMW also never made the kind of money that Microsoft made in it heyday or that Apple makes now. I think what analyst want is for Apple to not just be very profitable, but profitable even beyond what it is now. The undiscovered country for Apple is the segment in the middle and that's where analysts want Apple to attack. No one is expecting Apple to make a $200 phone. But at the same time, they're hoping Apple plays in more than just the top tier. It's all about potential.

 

If they could surprise people on cost with the iPad, why not the iPhone?

post #111 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


It's only a brand new outer shell.

Off topic: that gold iPhone is beautiful.

 

Just to nitpick, there are a few more differences between the 5c and the 5. It has a new facetime camera I believe, it has a slightly larger battery and it also has more LTE bands.

 

And yes, I agree with you that the 5s looks great. I like the space grey one myself, though all colors look nice. I also think that the Touch ID is going to be huge. Yeah, other devices have had something similar before, but they've all been crap, until Apple comes along and does it right of course.

post #112 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

... they will probably reverse course and lower prices in the new year, possibly halting sales of the 4S.

I thought there was a rumor to that effect a couple weeks back, with the 4S only surviving till the end of the year or something like that.
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post #113 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

That's the beauty of these 5C phones.  They can easily drop the price $50 if they need to.  They could never do that with the difficult manufacturing costs of the 5.  In fact I'm almost 100% sure that Apple will drop the price of the 5C in China/India after the initial sales push.  Or they will sell the phones cheaper to carriers like China Mobile and have them subsidize the phones.  In the USA there is no reason to drop the price below $99 subsidize.

It's not the subsidized price that is the issue. It's the contract free phone that many people look to purchase. At $549 that is very expensive.
post #114 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

If you're talking about the US, then you are correct, but worldwide, it is a different story.

 

There is still a massive market worldwide at $550.

 

This is a brand new 16 GB iPhone 5C. That's actually a $100 cheaper than the most comparable offering yesterday, worldwide.

post #115 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

I like Jon Fortt point that the cheap iphone could be the watch. The same way people wanted Apple to make netbooks but instead came out with the ipad.

That being said, I wish they could offer a bigger screen model. I have no choice to renew my 4s for a Nexus 4 which better fits my needs.  at $250, its not a big risk and its going to be paid in 6 months on the money I save on the plan alone.
Hmm...Fortt may be on to something. When Tim Cook was asked about a cheaper phone earlier this year at the Goldman Sachs conference he pivoted to the iPod and the product he brought up was the shuffle. I've said before I think Apple might go in a completely different direction with respect to emerging markets and maybe that's something we'll see play out in 2014.
post #116 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 

The street always give the wrong reason of why a stock goes up or down.  AAPL began dropping yesterday after 11AM PT when the show was over.  The price of 3C was announced much earlier.  It seems the investors was waiting for the one last thing that is a 5 inch iPhone.  Apple has missed a huge market which is every bigger than iPhone.  The combined sales of larger smartphones are bigger than iPhone.  With a bigger iPhone Apple can resume growth. 

 

the only problem is...there is no such market.  5"+ phones are not selling well.  The fantasyland nonsense people spew is mind boggling.  here you have Apple making more money than any other phone maker by a country mile and the trolls/analysts think they need to kill their margins by introducing a volume loss leader.  No wonder these people are analysts rather than real jobs where you have to add value.

post #117 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

How can anyone take Munster seriously?

I take him seriously as a price analyst. His predictions are crap but I bet he knows something about Apple projects but Cook is too timid to pull trigger on new product releases. Cooks a disaster. Bring back forstall.
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post #118 of 297

As much as consumers and investors are disappointed by the lack of a large-display iPhone, we should appreciate that Apple is protecting its developer base--keeping developers happy--by not tossing off one odd display format after another. After all, the unmatched selection of well-functioning iOS apps is Apple's most valuable asset.

 

Android "supports" a wide range of display sizes and resolutions by adapting dynamically, which leads to ugly, poorly functioning interfaces. In contrast, iOS requires developers to produce custom-tailored content and control layouts, which yields consistent, fully functional interfaces across all i-Devices. The introduction of retina displays was easily handled in iOS by pixel-doubling and the introduction of the iPad mini was handled by not changing the pixel count. Switching to a larger iPhone display while maintaining retina resolution is a far more difficult problem. If Apple doesn't make this transition carefully, many developers will be unable to make the transition themselves. In fact, there may be no easy path for Apple (or developers), which is why Apple may delay the transition until it absolutely has to be made in order to survive.

 

Apple has made many major platform transitions in its history--and all but the Apple II to Mac transition were made very smoothly. The transition to a large display iPhone looks to be the second-most difficult ever.


Edited by Cpsro - 9/11/13 at 11:14am
post #119 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post
 

 

I am sooooo tired of hauling this out but here it is:

 

Apple II 1977

Mac 1984

PowerBook 1991

Newton 1993

iPod 2001

iPhone 2007

iPad 2010

 

Average interval between major new product introductions:  5.5 years.  My advice is, if you only started paying attention when iPhone first came out, then be patient.  A 3 year gap is at the low end of the range.  Even if we limit the numbers to the Steve Jobs era.

 

but they did not come out with the star trek holodeck so Apple is FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!  I mean, revolutionizing existing markets is simple and is done every year by google, samesung, microsoft, etc...

post #120 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

the only problem is...there is no such market.  5"+ phones are not selling well.  The fantasyland nonsense people spew is mind boggling.  here you have Apple making more money than any other phone maker by a country mile and the trolls/analysts think they need to kill their margins by introducing a volume loss leader.  No wonder these people are analysts rather than real jobs where you have to add value.

Munster was talking about a low end device starting 15% margins leading to MORE REVENUE and higher EPS. And bigger market share. Which is what. all sane investors care about. The obsession with margin is the doltish nonsense and baboonery you get only here. Christ you probably think they should sell 29 gold plated iPhones a year at 98.98% margins and forget the middle classes.
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