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Apple further details new Touch ID fingerprint sensor, notes system is not flawless - Page 2

post #41 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

First, a user must enter a passcode to initiate the iPhone 5s' biometric capabilities. As a protection against nefarious users trying to bypass the security measure, only this code can be used to unlock a device after it's been rebooted or has been left unlocked for more than 48 hours …

 

This is such an obvious flaw.  It will almost certainly generate huge amounts of user frustration and many complaints.  

 

The type of person they are intending to use the sensor are those that normally don't use authentication in the first place.  So these folks (and I know them well) will put in a passcode to start using the sensor and then immediately forget what it is.  

 

At some point they will leave the phone alone for too long and get locked out.  Then the only way back in is to remember that password they put in months or possibly years ago and never had to re-enter.  It's a virtual certainty that they won't remember this passcode, and there won't be anything for it but a trip to the Apple store. 

post #42 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon_PhoneApart View Post

It's the reptilians. Chariots of the Gods, man; they practically own South America.
It's the morlocks that I find unsettling.

We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #43 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by eckergus View Post
… Me? I don't care. If you're not doing anything illegal you shouldn't have to worry … 

 

I should be clear that I don't believe all this conspiracy BS flying around this thread, but ...

 

If you study your history (I know it's not taught anymore), you would know that your statement is one of the core sentiments of … Fascism.  

 

It's the classic justification for totalitarian states everywhere in the world and throughout history.  It's an anti-democratic statement by definition.  

It's also completely illogical and utterly nonsensical, but hey … that's Fascism for ya!  

 

Sieg Heil!

post #44 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

If the sensor ever fails to read your finger print there is a workaround that can be implemented using another appendage.

However, this implementation cannot be used by females...

And at this point the fact that your iPhone heats up a little when used becomes a feature instead of a flaw. Otherwise shrinkage would result in way too many false negatives.

We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #45 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusPhan View Post

What is the heck state do you live in the takes your thumbprint for a drivers license? That has to be illegal. That's insane. I wouldn't get a drivers license if I had to do that.
Texas. Passed the law in '67, fully implemented by '69. Of course at that time the prints would have to be matched by a trained expert who already knew which sets of prints that were going to be compared - there would be no search of all prints for a match

We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple cautions that the Touch ID sensor is not perfect and will give inaccurate readings in some cases, especially when a finger is moist. This is due to the capacitive "image" the sensor array captures. Moisture or other conductive debris on a finger could give false readings.
So Touch ID returns a false negative from a Dirty Sanchez? Got it.

We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

No sweat!

 

So, if there is an accident nearby, and you urgently need to call the police or the doctor, you need to remember your passcode.

Anyway, here's the reason why they didn't demo that feature, as already suspected by some ...

post #48 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post
 

 

This is such an obvious flaw.  It will almost certainly generate huge amounts of user frustration and many complaints.  

 

The type of person they are intending to use the sensor are those that normally don't use authentication in the first place.  So these folks (and I know them well) will put in a passcode to start using the sensor and then immediately forget what it is.  

 

At some point they will leave the phone alone for too long and get locked out.  Then the only way back in is to remember that password they put in months or possibly years ago and never had to re-enter.  It's a virtual certainty that they won't remember this passcode, and there won't be anything for it but a trip to the Apple store. 

 

Couldn't agree more. That was exactly what worried me too when reading this. But Touch ID really shouldn't be a failure for Apple. I hope this tech is better than a fair share here worries it actually will be. I don't know what the success rate of accurate finger print reading must be for it to be a success. My guess is, it must be >95%.

post #49 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by diplication View Post

It's the morlocks that I find unsettling.

Morlocks don't exist.

Stop spreading CHUD FUD.

1wink.gif
I always appreciate an Android fan who puts his energy into advertising Apple products.
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I always appreciate an Android fan who puts his energy into advertising Apple products.
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post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacApfel View Post

So, if there is an accident nearby, and you urgently need to call the police or the doctor, you need to remember your passcode.
Anyway, here's the reason why they didn't demo that feature, as already suspected by some ...

Though I've not had cause to try it, I understand that you can dial emergency numbers without unlocking the phone.
post #51 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Morlocks don't exist.

Stop spreading CHUD FUD.

1wink.gif
CHUD. I forgot about them. But then again, I usually only see my inlaws around the holidays!

We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by denobin View Post

Don't believe you. Sources or it's BS.

Nothing gets by you. You aced sarcasm detection class in school.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #53 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by globalpix View Post

Just be careful you're not interesting enough for anyone to bother with.

Fixed 8-)

post #54 of 65

whats the big issue here? Loads of Windows laptops have had a fingerprint scanner on them for years, and I never once read any article about them and the "security concerns". Granted they pretty much never worked, but surely the same process was involved, only your hash was stored within software, not on the chip and we all know that on a Windows machine would mean it would be safe forever !!!! :)

 

talk about doing your best to make a big deal out of nothing.....

 

dont like it? dont use it ! 

take that gem of advice with you everyday and pass it on to your offspring !

post #55 of 65

The article stated scar tissue is dead.  No it isn't.

post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post


...and yet the media said you voted with your feet???

I think I am totally missing your point? Sorry.
post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

This is such an obvious flaw.  It will almost certainly generate huge amounts of user frustration and many complaints.  

The type of person they are intending to use the sensor are those that normally don't use authentication in the first place.  So these folks (and I know them well) will put in a passcode to start using the sensor and then immediately forget what it is.  

At some point they will leave the phone alone for too long and get locked out.  Then the only way back in is to remember that password they put in months or possibly years ago and never had to re-enter.  It's a virtual certainty that they won't remember this passcode, and there won't be anything for it but a trip to the Apple store. 

You're simply inserting your own thoughts of what Touch ID does for reality. Are you an analyst?

Touch ID is used only for accessing Apple's Store. You already need your password for that. Touch ID adds another layer of security on top of the password. It is not meant to replace passwords. So if you can remember your password to use Apple Store pre-Touch, then you should be able to remember it after Touch.

It is most certainly not meant to appeal to people who don't currently use authentication. Those people aren't able to access the Apple Store today, so it shouldn't bother them that they can't access it in the future.

Maybe some day they'll drop the password requirement, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkhudson View Post

Touch ID is pretty intriguing, but I have some serious reservations about the accuracy of this scanner and the ability to last at least 2 years (enough time to get a new phone) of usage.

I look forward to seeing what the reviewers say after the phone is released.

I'm sure Apple tested it pretty thoroughly. As for accuracy, most of what I'm reading suggests that when it fails, you're most likely to get a false negative and false positives don't happen often, if at all. That's the way it should be.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

...
Touch ID is used only for accessing Apple's Store. You already need your password for that. Touch ID adds another layer of security on top of the password. It is not meant to replace passwords. So if you can remember your password to use Apple Store pre-Touch, then you should be able to remember it after Touch.

It is most certainly not meant to appeal to people who don't currently use authentication. ...

 

I could be wrong of course, but as far as what I have read of Apple's promotion materials and seen of how it's being marketed, what you are saying here is completely wrong.  

 

It is in fact being marketed to people who don't use passwords or haven't used passwords before.  

It is in fact being marketed primarily as a way to unlock the device, not as a way to access the store.  

 

Hopefully there is language in the tutorial that says something on the order of "use your AppleID password if you have one" but that alone will be confusing for many people and there will be other people who are entering a password into the device for the very first time.  

 

I deal with this exact issue daily in my work (forcing people who don't normally use a password to use one), so I have a bit of experience with this group of folks. 

post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacApfel View Post
 

 

Couldn't agree more. That was exactly what worried me too when reading this. But Touch ID really shouldn't be a failure for Apple. I hope this tech is better than a fair share here worries it actually will be. I don't know what the success rate of accurate finger print reading must be for it to be a success. My guess is, it must be >95%.

 

I don't think it ail be a failure per se but it will be problematic to some degree, and like most things Apple does it will have a high profile and be a "first experience" for a lot of folks, and the media and as such will carry the can for all the problems and mistakes that anyone has ever experienced with any kind of fingerprint recognition.  

 

I can see the word "fingergate" hovering in the distance.  :)

post #60 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

This is such an obvious flaw.  It will almost certainly generate huge amounts of user frustration and many complaints.  

The type of person they are intending to use the sensor are those that normally don't use authentication in the first place.  So these folks (and I know them well) will put in a passcode to start using the sensor and then immediately forget what it is.  

At some point they will leave the phone alone for too long and get locked out.  Then the only way back in is to remember that password they put in months or possibly years ago and never had to re-enter.  It's a virtual certainty that they won't remember this passcode, and there won't be anything for it but a trip to the Apple store. 

One should be able to override this by simply docking to a host computer ( which would mean at some point a backup to the computer is initially required) and not a trip to Apple.
 
Where's the new Apple TV?
 
And still waiting for SolipsismX to prove his accusation:
"And yet they haven't loved Google Wallet which you claimed was the exact same thing and kept posting...
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Where's the new Apple TV?
 
And still waiting for SolipsismX to prove his accusation:
"And yet they haven't loved Google Wallet which you claimed was the exact same thing and kept posting...
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post #61 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

In the case of this government it is out to get you.

All I can say is, the entire period from the formation of HS after 9/11 till the election of the current administration I was on the no fly list which was hell, absolute hell. Nothing I could do. They didn't know age, sex, height, weight, ethnicity ... just a name. During that same period I was able to become licensed Realtor in my spare time, and gain American Citizenship. But fly without harassment ...hell no. I was cleared very soon after the election when it seems some level of intelligence was added to the screening process. So I would agree there are some changes. My guess is they started using computers 1biggrin.gif
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From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
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post #62 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

This is such an obvious flaw.  It will almost certainly generate huge amounts of user frustration and many complaints.  

The type of person they are intending to use the sensor are those that normally don't use authentication in the first place.  So these folks (and I know them well) will put in a passcode to start using the sensor and then immediately forget what it is.  

At some point they will leave the phone alone for too long and get locked out.  Then the only way back in is to remember that password they put in months or possibly years ago and never had to re-enter.  It's a virtual certainty that they won't remember this passcode, and there won't be anything for it but a trip to the Apple store. 


Don't worry about the users you describe, their password is 'Password123', they won't forget 1biggrin.gif
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
Google Motto "You're not the customer. You're the product."
Reply
post #63 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Oh no. Duck! TouchIDgate alert!!

 

Just don't finger it that way.

 

Sent from my iPhone

post #64 of 65

I completely see the need to retain passcodes in the event of sensor failure or finger damage.

 

But why is the finger print considered less secure after 48 hours or a reboot? Is it possible that the system only "trusts" finger prints for a short duration, and needs to update them frequently, ie incrementally update them?

 

Lots of people turn their phones off at night.

post #65 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by konqerror View Post

That's incorrect. If you know about hashes, then you know that they are not tolerant to small changes, as you would expect as fingerprints aren't read with 100% accuracy. How fingerprint readers work is that they extract a series of features, for example, where ridges end and split. These features are then aligned and compared to the features in the stored template and scored depending on which ones match.

The information between features is discarded so the whole fingerprint image cannot be reconstructed, but the important parts of the fingerprint are stored. Therefore, it's not as "one-way" as you make it to be.
You are correct that the hashes won't be 100% matched. It will be 99.95 or better match typically. But the hashes are compared, not the images. No useful information can be derived from the stored hash.
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