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Not to be outdone by Apple's iPhone 5s, Samsung pledges 64-bit chips in next Galaxy phones - Page 4

post #121 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


With the RAM increases nearing 4 GBs they just about have to go 64-bit.

 

But if they're not talking with 64-bit then it won't matter because it can't register that amount of RAM. Regardless, I don't know of a phone that is anywhere near 4GB of RAM

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post #122 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

 

First, Samsung is one of the mfg Apple uses for producing their proprietary ARM custom chip, beside Apple bought few years ago the R&D teams reponsible for Samsung ARM development, ever since Samsung are using generic and wildly available ARM + GPU design.

 

Second,  there is a lot more to go with 64bit computing than merely addressing over 4GB of RAM, the terms itself meaning the length of the registers.  Having registers twice as big and twice the numbers as the previous generation, the A7 is a desktop class beast for it's 1 watt power envelope.  Going 64 bits was the best way to push further the ARM platform and eventually every device will be 64 bit.  Apple does it right to be an early adopter.

 

Third, too bad Android only wins synthetic benchmark, this picture doesn't translate in real life application like browsing and games. This is were you realize that apps won't necessary benefit from adding more core to a CPU

 

No, Samsung is the only manufacturer Apple relies on ARM chips.  Apple initially used PortalPlayer's ARM chips in earlier iPod, but switched to Samsung's custom ARM based SOC's since 2006.  Samsung collaborated with Intrinsity go beyond 1Ghz in 2010.

 

No, there is absolutely no need to go 64bit on mobile ends.  It makes sense however for Samsung to develop 64bit since they already make laptops powered by ARM chips.

 

No, you absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. 

post #123 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottt732 View Post

A 64-bit processor isn't a big deal unless the device has > 4GB of RAM.

 

That's not really true. 64-bit processors have wider datapaths and registers which can make a number of computations faster. Also, the ARM v8 instructions (i.e. the ones Apple is now targeting) add a range of other features:

 

http://www.arm.com/files/downloads/ARMv8_Architecture.pdf

post #124 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post
 

 

Yeah I was thinking...Android I don't believe even supports 64-bit processing so whats the use? And, I don't believe there to be any kind of developer kit to make things 64-bit on Android. 

 

64 bit Java byte code? 

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post #125 of 230

I dont understand this move by Samsung,  they just released the new Note and 10" Tablet last week, and today they say.. but we will have 64 bit version next year.  What is there supposed to tell consumers interested in buying a Samsung Note and 10" Tablet? 

Was this a wise business move or did they just shoot themselves in the foot by telling consumers to wait for the next update?

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post #126 of 230
Samsung "pledges". Really? Don't they have to have an OS that's 64 bit first? Google hasn't released a 64 bit version of Android and they have have one out about 6 months before Samsung can start shipping their 64 bit smartphones. Unless they still operate the thing in 32 bit mode and just ship a 64 bit processor just to be able to say they have 64 bit.
post #127 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottt732 View Post

Remember their growing pains around the switch of OSX to 64-bit? Universal binaries vs. 32-bit binaries? 

not really..can you refresh my memory. which growing pains exactly?

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post #128 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post

 

Third, benchmarks show that A7 is twice as fast as A6, which puts it around the same performance as today's Galaxy S4: http://www.primatelabs.com/blog/2013/03/samsung-galaxy-s-4-benchmarks/

You do know the S4 (among other Samsung phones) was caught cheating on benchmarks. The performance displayed on the benchmarks is nowhere near the performance in actual day to day use.

 

One note, though, apparently ARMv8 architecture was made to be backwards compatible with 32 bit seamlessly, so that shouldn't be something that Android has to spend a significant amount of time on. And most people here are right, you will only notice a huge benefit in gaming.

 

Right now, 64 bit, even with recompiled apps and a 64 bit OS wont be a significant difference above 32 bit, but in the future it will, so it's a great idea to lay that groundwork now.


Edited by dstarsboy - 9/12/13 at 10:45am
post #129 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

Samsung "pledges". Really? Don't they have to have an OS that's 64 bit first? Google hasn't released a 64 bit version of Android and they have have one out about 6 months before Samsung can start shipping their 64 bit smartphones. Unless they still operate the thing in 32 bit mode and just ship a 64 bit processor just to be able to say they have 64 bit.

 

dont forget about the tools and NDK.

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post #130 of 230
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Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

The iPhone5s was the iterative, minor upgrade.     The iPhone6 will be the "real" upgrade and I think you'll see the benefits there.

Nonsense. The 5S is a 'real' upgrade in every sense of the word.

Dramatically faster performance
First 64 bit phone
Integral fingerprint sensor
Motion coprocessor
Dramatic camera improvements

That's about as real as it gets (unless you're shallow enough to think that the only thing that matters is the case).
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post #131 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedX172 View Post

Oh great, here comes the 64 bit processor race. Because we all need to open Instagram or Facebook *that* much faster in our daily lives. Sigh.

 

64 bit will help out the gamers on an iPhone, but the reason it is critically important and will make a difference is because it will boost the performance of iPads.  Almost certain the iPads will be getting a CPU upgrade in the next month or so.   For Apple shareholders, this will be important. The tablet market in the long run is the holy grail.  The tablet market will expand more slowly and for a much longer period of time and whoever wins the tablet market will own the computer market.  In the long term, Microsoft is in serious trouble because they don't have a mobile platform. 

post #132 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Nonsense. The 5S is a 'real' upgrade in every sense of the word.

Dramatically faster performance
First 64 bit phone
Integral fingerprint sensor
Motion coprocessor
Dramatic camera improvements

That's about as real as it gets (unless you're shallow enough to think that the only thing that matters is the case).

 

I think a lot of people don't understand what an upgrade actually is.  The internal improvements of the 5s were much greater than I was expecting (on an annual release cycle, the processor gains for iPhone have been, and remain, remarkable).

 

The thing I'm most interested in is the Motion coprocessor, mostly because I can't really envisage what such a thing is for.  That excites me though, since finding out what people make it do is going to be very interesting.

post #133 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post
 

 

No, Samsung is the only manufacturer Apple relies on ARM chips.  Apple initially used PortalPlayer's ARM chips in earlier iPod, but switched to Samsung's custom ARM based SOC's since 2006.  Samsung collaborated with Intrinsity go beyond 1Ghz in 2010.

 

No, there is absolutely no need to go 64bit on mobile ends.  It makes sense however for Samsung to develop 64bit since they already make laptops powered by ARM chips.

 

No, you absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. 

 

You got all wrong, Apple is also doing business with TSMC.  Apple initially invested in ARM and licence ARM design ever since the Newton back in the early 90.  Intrinsity was the R&D shop for Samsung ARM processor until Apple bought them in 2010, and now part of the internal team at Apple responsible for the Ax and Mx development.  Beside saying there is absolutely no need for 64 bit on mobile is as dump as Bill Gate infamous quote: 640ko is more than enough for anyone.  I'm pretty sure Apple internal developers already put the 64 bit CPU in good use for video and image processing on iOS.


Edited by BigMac2 - 9/12/13 at 10:57am
post #134 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

Apple already got a taste of Samsung's skills last year and it just plain sucked the value out of Apple. Apple got caught with it's pants down. Samsung smartphone sales went through the roof while iPhone sales went into the toilet.

can you point me to the data that shows that iPhone sales ever went down?

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post #135 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Nonsense. The 5S is a 'real' upgrade in every sense of the word.

Dramatically faster performance
First 64 bit phone
Integral fingerprint sensor
Motion coprocessor
Dramatic camera improvements

That's about as real as it gets (unless you're shallow enough to think that the only thing that matters is the case).

 

Agreed. I would also add to the list the fact that Apple is giving iWork away for free on iOS.  Watch out Microsoft, your cash cow might get mad cow disease.

 

 It's funny how something like going to a 64 bit operating system without a hitch can be dismissed as meh.  Apple even showed an awesome game ready to go on day one of sales.

Is everyone forgetting how big a deal it was for Microsoft to transition from 32 bit to 64 bit with vista?  And they botched it big time.  

Not to mention that 64 bit is going to be very important for tablets. iPad and iPad specific software are going to continue dominating the market. 

post #136 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

Beside Android is currently years away from being a 64bit OS, the Linux kernel and userland needs to be ported first and than the whole Dalvik VM will all its library needs to be ported.

 

The Linux kernel has run on multiple 64-bit architectures for years, since the 2.6 days at least. Of course, there will be some work involved in porting to ARMv8, but Linaro has already started on that. The first bit of support was merged into Linux 3.7 almost a year ago.

 

Many of the low-level user-space libraries on Android are shared with common Linux distributions and already support 64-bit. I suspect the only real sticking points would be bionic (Android's libc) and the Dalvik VM. The rest of userspace is normal C++ which should be easy to recompile.

post #137 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post
 

 

Agreed. I would also add to the list the fact that Apple is giving iWork away for free on iOS.  Watch out Microsoft, your cash cow might get mad cow disease.

 

Apple has iWork for free via iCloud.  While this is good, I think they would be more effective if they make a free native Windows and Mac OS X version which can only save to iCloud for storage.     This will help drive sales for iOS devices further.

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post #138 of 230
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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
 

A couple of things... 

 

First, don't bash Samsung for making junk. Why? The A7 is made by Samung, at least in part if not entirely: http://************/2013/07/31/apples-upcoming-a7-iphone-chip-will-have-samsung-components-code-inside-ios-7-reveals/

 

Second, 64 bit is part of a roadmap for the future, with almost no benefit today. This is true for both Samsung and Apple, but Samsung has reached the critical limit before Apple. That's because their current phones ship with 3GB RAM, almost the 4GB limit. iPhone 5s ships with only 2GB RAM (iPhone 5 has 1GB). Read this: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57602372-94/the-real-reasons-apples-64-bit-a7-chip-makes-sense/

 

Third, benchmarks show that A7 is twice as fast as A6, which puts it around the same performance as today's Galaxy S4: http://www.primatelabs.com/blog/2013/03/samsung-galaxy-s-4-benchmarks/

 

The second is not so much a roadmap for the future  in regard to Apple. iOS7, released next week I believe, will be compiled as 32 & 64bit. Obviously, can only run 64bit on the 5S. In addition, Apple has also already set up the developer code with the ability to port their apps to both 32 & 64 bit in one package. Normally, this is a lengthy process but Apple sped up this process so it does it rather quickly and thus no reason for developers not to recompile and offer 32/64bit versions of their apps right away. 

 

As far as the third, it has been proven that Samsung added code to run the processor and a much faster speed when benchmarking. While the processor is capable of running at those speeds, it does not do so in normal processing. Runs much slower. My guess is that the phone would overheat of have a very short battery life to run at those speeds. This is what Apple always had an edge and by engineering the device, software and developer code can pull the best performance with less "specs".  

post #139 of 230
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Originally Posted by derekmorr View Post
 

 

The Linux kernel has run on multiple 64-bit architectures for years, since the 2.6 days at least. Of course, there will be some work involved in porting to ARMv8, but Linaro has already started on that. The first bit of support was merged into Linux 3.7 almost a year ago.

 

Many of the low-level user-space libraries on Android are shared with common Linux distributions and already support 64-bit. I suspect the only real sticking points would be bionic (Android's libc) and the Dalvik VM. The rest of userspace is normal C++ which should be easy to recompile.

 

Agree, Linux kernel as being ported to 64bit many years ago.  But this is not the case for the Android fork Google is working on.  Beside compiling the OS and libs for 64bit is only the iceberg tips, a lot is still missing right now in Linux for supporting multiple architecture binary like OSX and iOS is doing.

post #140 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave MacLachlan View Post

Surprised they didn't announce a 65-bit processor... 'Cause that extra bit would make it THAT MUCH better than Apple's puny little girly-man of a 64-bit processor.

LOL...

Correct me if I am wrong... but didn't another popular phone manufacturer have co-CEOs?
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post #141 of 230
64 bit, Gold glaxy, ,fingerprint detector, ... Dusl flash, motion chip, And ofcource covers with holes on the back side.
post #142 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

 

Agree, Linux kernel as being ported to 64bit many years ago.  But this is not the case for the Android fork Google is working on.  Beside compiling the OS and libs for 64bit is only the iceberg tips, a lot is still missing right now in Linux for supporting multiple architecture binary like OSX and iOS is doing.

 

Android already has fat binary support; the APK format allows multiple architectures. If you run into the APK size limits, you can use the multiple-APK support Google rolled out last year. But this shouldn't be an issue for most apps which use Dalvik because it's platform-independent

post #143 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by jusephe View Post

Apple said that they need 3 things to transfer to 64-bit quickly.
First, great hardware (iPhone 5S is great 1wink.gif,
second a 64 bit OS to take advantage of great hardware (iOS 7)
And third, support of developer comunity to adopt 64-bit. (NOONE has stronger developer support than Apple)

So we will have lots of smartphones with 64 bit rushing out next year. By that time Apple will have 90% of its users on 64 bit OS (iOS 7)
And I think over 50% percent of Apps remaked for 64 bit, that will run so fast on the 5S they will literally flew out the screen.

And those android fans with 64 bit 6 to 7 inch "phones" will have to wait for the google IO maybe even to fall before the 64 bit version of android get relased, then wait another 4-9 months to get it on their phone and last but most significant, they will literally have to wait for years before most of the android apps get tuned for 64-bit. This will fragment android even more.

Transition to 64-bit is what can Apple start and finish even before competition can react, thanks to great hardware, software and developers.

So noone cares that samsung phones will got some 16 core 3 Ghz 64-bit processor (with 4GB of RAM obviously) 6 months from now when there will be already a huge installed base of tens of millions of iPhones and iPads running 64-bit code under 64-bit OS on a 64-bit hardware.

^^^ says it all!
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post #144 of 230
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Originally Posted by starbird73 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourun View Post

What good is 64 bit hardware without 64 bit software? I think it may take Google a while to get Android at 64 bit so this is another marketing ploy by Samsung. Why doesn't the article mention this? As Apple said others aren't even talking about it.

First, I don't disagree with you at all. But we don't know what kit kat is going to be, as far as I know, nor does Apple so while I, too, believe it, just because Apple said its true doesn't mean it is

"is going to be"  !=  "already is"
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post #145 of 230
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Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

LOL...

Correct me if I am wrong... but didn't another popular phone manufacturer have co-CEOs?

You mean this one? Why yes it does...
http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/14/4106720/samsung-appoints-two-new-co-ceos-following-galaxy-s4-launch
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post #146 of 230
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Originally Posted by MedX172 View Post

Oh great, here comes the 64 bit processor race. Because we all need to open Instagram or Facebook *that* much faster in our daily lives. Sigh.

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post #147 of 230
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Originally Posted by derekmorr View Post
 

 

Android already has fat binary support; the APK format allows multiple architectures. If you run into the APK size limits, you can use the multiple-APK support Google rolled out last year. But this shouldn't be an issue for most apps which use Dalvik because it's platform-independent

 

Multiple-APK is not a fat binary technology, here is the description from your link:

Quote:
Multiple APK support is a feature on Google Play that allows you to publish different APKs for your application that are each targeted to different device configurations. Each APK is a complete and independent version of your application, but they share the same application listing on Google Play and must share the same package name and be signed with the same release key

 

This mean for developer to compile and package separated version of the same apps for every device configuration it target.  Having a real  fat binary support require being able to run the same binary transparently on any device like OSX and iOS is doing.  


Edited by BigMac2 - 9/12/13 at 11:36am
post #148 of 230

I think most people are underestimating the potential of 64bit and don't forget Open GL. Many might be correct that on an iPhone it may not be needed but you need to look around the corner at the potential. Next up would be an iPad refresh. Remember the device that has killed the PC market. Its been a long while since a refresh. Think 64bit on that device and the number of people who may be looking for n upgrade. Many developers compile one universal app for iphone and ipad and can easily do so now in 64bit as well. The iPhone 5s is the intro. The next iPad will be running an A7 in 64bit as well. This will jettison the iPad that much further along then any competition.  Opens up a whole new world of  apps that can run on these devices.  

post #149 of 230
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Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

 

Multiple-APK is not a multi-arch executable technology

 

This mean for developer to compile and package separated version of the same apps for every device configuration it target.  Having a real 32/64 bit fat support require being able to run the same binary on 32 bit and 64 bit OS transparently like OSX and iOS is doing. 

 

You missed the part of my post where I said that APKs already support multiple architectures. You only need multi-APK if you run into a size limit. The new Gradle build system in Android Studio makes supporting multi-APKs easier.

post #150 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursadorable View Post

64 bit processor with a 32 bit operating system with a 2 bit user experience.  Way to go Samsung!

Good one! I believe this one works as well:

A 64-bit memory extension plugin for a 32 bit shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, implemented by a 2 bit company who don't have 1 bit of originality.
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post #151 of 230
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Originally Posted by macxpress View Post
 

 

But if they're not talking with 64-bit then it won't matter because it can't register that amount of RAM. Regardless, I don't know of a phone that is anywhere near 4GB of RAM

 

some of the Android devices are starting to approach this.  Look at Samsung's press release for the Note 3 and 10" Galaxy tab.

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post #152 of 230
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Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie View Post

Competition is good. Heaven forfend the day we should see only one mobile device maker.

Competition based on innovation is good. Competition based on tearing apart your competitor's product to try and emulate it is not. Bringing to market an innovative idea is more expensive than using a competitors finished product to bypass your own R& D. Allowing blind copying to compete in the market place ultimately kills innovation because the innovator can't compete with the copier on price. Dyson is the latest company to sue Samsung over competing by merely copying Dyson's products to bypass its own R & D.

I was going to buy one of those Dyson Blade-less heater/fans:




...Now, I guess I'll wait for the 64-bit SammyFanny...
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post #153 of 230
Quote:
The CPU includes over a billion processor, which doubles its predecessor, the A6.

Now thats what I call a lot of cores!
post #154 of 230
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Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by res08hao View Post

Samsung should be renamed Monkey See.
Aw, you're being too harsh: I'd give them credit for Monkey Do too.

I think you mean Monkey DoDo 1biggrin.gif
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post #155 of 230
Jumps up and down "me too, me too!"
post #156 of 230
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Originally Posted by appletouches View Post

Samsung co-CEO Shin Jong-kyun's pep up speech to his team:

Step#1: Ctrl C
Step#2: Ctrl V
Step#3: logo change

LOL Best post in thread!
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post #157 of 230
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Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Aw, you're being too harsh: I'd give them credit for Monkey Do too.

 

Monkey Doo Doo.

 

On edit: I see Dick Applebaum beat me to it.

post #158 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyMcLovin View Post
 

Did you make the same comment when Apple copied the larger screens on typical Android devices for the iPhone 5?

 

I was being 100% sarcastic.  The transition from 32-bit to 64-bit is coming to all phones eventually because it's the natural progression of technology.  Mobile chips are a few years behind desktop chips but following basically the same pattern.

post #159 of 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

64 bit will help out the gamers on an iPhone, but the reason it is critically important and will make a difference is because it will boost the performance of iPads.  Almost certain the iPads will be getting a CPU upgrade in the next month or so.   For Apple shareholders, this will be important. The tablet market in the long run is the holy grail.  The tablet market will expand more slowly and for a much longer period of time and whoever wins the tablet market will own the computer market.  In the long term, Microsoft is in serious trouble because they don't have a mobile platform. 

This needs to be repeated until it sinks into some thick heads. Apple is in this for the long haul and is working towards computing for a decade into the future. I think the iPhone only exists because they saw it as a good way to transitin people into the iPad. And having sold a few they realized that future computing would come in three favors: mobile (tablets) very mobile (phones) and that stuff that grandma used to do, you know with the big screen? That stuff companies do now? Not mobile? What is it called? Oh yeah, desktops...

The 64 bit combined with the performance upgrade is going to make a huge difference in tablets. And Apple controls it. The hardware, the cores, the software, all of it. And very soon at the rate they are improving chips your iPad will be running very very close to your desktop in speed.

How hot does this chip run? Anyone know? Can they give the iPad a dual chip? Four cores? Eight? How far away is that? And when your iPad has 128 gigs and desktop speed and can reach the cloud from almost anywhere, why would you buy a computer?

Already in my house we are getting closer to this every day. We have a desktop that is essentially a server or big iron. Yes, I have to rip the occasional movie, and I still keep iPhone and iPad backups there, but except for 2-3 times a week doing short intensive tasks, it could be stored in a closet and still do its job. But we have 4 iPhones, 3 iPads, and an iPod that get used on a near constant basis.

Which market do you want to control, the past, or the future.

Skate to where the puck will be...
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post #160 of 230
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Originally Posted by derekmorr View Post
 

 

You missed the part of my post where I said that APKs already support multiple architectures. You only need multi-APK if you run into a size limit. The new Gradle build system in Android Studio makes supporting multi-APKs easier.

 

It is not what it's said on your links and in the quote I got from that site.   I think you are confusing between multiple device configuration and multiple CPU architecture.  Right now Android support only one CPU architecture, and currently no Linux nor Android release that support multiple arch binary as a standard feature.

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