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After its disastrous Exynos 5 Octa, Samsung may have lost Apple's A7 contract to TSMC - Page 2

post #41 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

It's not really overnight because there are very few apps that will take advantage of the processor.

All of Apple's apps will be, for starters.

At the other end of the spectrum, even my app will be, before the end of the year.
post #42 of 366

The argument about Qualcomm chips being used in Samsung in North America is uninformed - they are used because Qualcomm has a monopoly on the cellular baseband chips required for several of the carriers in North America, and it is better power to use Qualcomm's all-in-one than to use Qualcomm's baseband only chip with Samsung's Exynos. Several companies have done this, including Samsung's S3, so nothing new to see here.

post #43 of 366

Thank you, DED.

 

What I do not understand, is why an website with great jornalists that do great and well thought articles (like this one) can destroy it's own reputation by publishing rumours from digitimes and everything that was being said by analysts.

 

Please AI, stop that. Invest more on these editorials that create great content.

 

Aspire to be more like Anandtech (with focus on Apple) and less like Engadget, Cnet or Mac rumours. Put a little of The Verge in your website. Create a loyal and informed base, the masses (the ones that matter, not the trash) will come.

 

Apple is the only one truly innovating since 98. In fact, they are the most important company (regarded innovation) since they were created. Fantastic. **** you Samsung with your yakuza-wannabees and absolutly retarded S4 buyers (factual. Ignorant people).

post #44 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post
 

Thank you, DED.

 

What I do not understand, is why an website with great jornalists that do great and well thought articles (like is one) can destroy it's own reputation by publishing rumours from digitimes and everything that was being said by analysts.

 

Please AI, stop that. Invest more on these editorials that create great content.

 

Aspire to be more like Anandtech (with focus on Apple) and less like Engadget, Cnet or Mac rumours. Put a little of The Verge in your website. Create a loyal and informed base, the masses (the ones that matter, not the trash) will come.

 

Apple is the only one truly innovating since 98. In fact, they are the most important company (regarded innovation) since they were created. Fantastic. **** you Samsung with your yakuza-wannabees and absolutly retarded S4 buyers (factual. Ignorant people).

edited to be more accurate - I see appleinsider as the opposite Anandtech - good for news and business insights, not so good on technical details. Stick to what you're good at and don't try to throw in tech details you don't really understand.

post #45 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Chaos View Post
 

The argument about Qualcomm chips being used in Samsung in North America is uninformed - they are used because Qualcomm has a monopoly on the cellular baseband chips required for several of the carriers in North America, and it is better power to use Qualcomm's all-in-one than to use Qualcomm's baseband only chip with Samsung's Exynos. Several companies have done this, including Samsung's S3, so nothing new to see here.

They are used for a variaty of reasons.

 

The most important is that exynos sucks and is murdered in quality/price/drivers/support/benchmarks(real world, fair benchmarks) by qualcomm and Apple's SOC.

 

Then you have the LTE argument.

 

Basically Samsung is embarassing at anything related to engineering and software.

It's just a company that has criminals on charge with the media and south korea on their pockets that happens to be great at manufacturing and shameful about laws and respect.

 

A company that should be exterminated or a necessary evil... that's the question.

post #46 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

"Anyone who thinks they know any of this better than Apple is either wrong or wasting their lives if they are not already generating billions of dollars in value with their grand expertise. Anyone who thinks they know any of this better than Apple is either wrong or wasting their lives if they are not already generating billions of dollars in value with their grand expertise."

This bears repeating. Over and over.

Basically the ultimate rebuke to every single troll nonsense comment made here since the 10th.

Well said sir.

Apple is once again pushing the industry in a certain direction with the implementation of the A7. If it weren't significant samscum wouldn't be so quick to come out with a statement with intent to copy the move.

And I also agree that it's about their roadmap for future products.

Great article. I was really tired of reading sites with so many negative articles about Apple's shift to 64 bit now.

2010 15" MBP, iPhone 5 64GB, New iPad 64GB LTE, (2) ATV 2nd Gen

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2010 15" MBP, iPhone 5 64GB, New iPad 64GB LTE, (2) ATV 2nd Gen

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post #47 of 366
Another spot on, informed and eloquent analysis, Daniel. May you and Appleinsider get increasingly more exposure; a welcome melody of truth-based tech journalism to counteract the static, the parroted shameful crap, that is being perpetuated out there.
post #48 of 366

It would be fascinating to get insight - fat chance - into Apple's internal structure and processes in developing new technologies like the A7 for their products.  You have to figure that Bob Mansfield is in the very middle of all of it, but how do they make the decisions like Samsung vs. TSMC as a supplier, etc.  All kinds of parameters from cost, risk, product schedules, and much else come into play.  Enormously tricky.

 

One thing that strikes me is that this does not seem to have the earmarks of a committee process.  It looks to me more like the result of a single strong person visionary who can lead the company along his view of the future.  Apple certainly has a precedent for that, now gone.  But are any of the obvious candidates - Mansfield?  Cook?  Ive? Someone else? - that person? 

 

Again, would be fascinating to get a glimpse into what goes on Cupertino, but of course it's not in the cards.

post #49 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

This article is full of useful information and good reporting BUT you badly need and editor. The article's structure and tone are all over the place. You bury the most important bits in bad paragraph structure, awkward sentences and uneven rhythm.

This should have been at least two articles, maybe three.

Try this for starters: Have someone read your copy aloud. If they stumble, so will your reader.

Again, all the parts of a solid article exist within here, but it needs work.

 

For me the biggest distractions are the duplicated sentences. It is like reading the first and second draft at the same time. Annoying waste of time. After half a dozen in the article, the otherwise witty sarcasm begins to lose its punch.

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post #50 of 366
Wow - amazing article and some really eye-opening perspectives. Some of the best Apple reporting I've seen all year. Kudos to you, Daniel, and to Apple Insider for providing some truly original and compelling content.
post #51 of 366
Samsung must not have doing the A7 or they would not have been caught flatfooted by Apple's 64-Bit launch. They probably had the contract for the 5C soc and thought that was all Apple was doing.

Haha!
post #52 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post
 

"Anyone who thinks they know any of this better than Apple is either wrong or wasting their lives if they are not already generating billions of dollars in value with their grand expertise. Anyone who thinks they know any of this better than Apple is either wrong or wasting their lives if they are not already generating billions of dollars in value with their grand expertise."

 

This bears repeating. Over and over.

 

Basically the ultimate rebuke to every single troll nonsense comment made here since the 10th.

 

I was going to call this out but you beat me to it.  This is why every tiresome banalyst (banal, syn: vapid, unimaginative, stale, worn out, etc.) who thinks they know best what Apple should be selling where and at what price is peddling a pile of fool's horses*it.


Edited by tundraboy - 9/14/13 at 8:44am
post #53 of 366
badly need "and" editor? Check your own copy bud. Those who know little tend to go for the grammar and spelling business.
post #54 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Are there?

Yes.
Sim free iPhone 5s in UK Apple Store £549.00
Sim free Samsung Galaxy S4 in Argos £599.95 although it does have £50 off at the moment making it only 95 pence more expensive than the 5s.
post #55 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluestone View Post
 

It would be fascinating to get insight - fat chance - into Apple's internal structure and processes in developing new technologies like the A7 for their products.  You have to figure that Bob Mansfield is in the very middle of all of it, but how do they make the decisions like Samsung vs. TSMC as a supplier, etc.  All kinds of parameters from cost, risk, product schedules, and much else come into play.  Enormously tricky.

 

One thing that strikes me is that this does not seem to have the earmarks of a committee process.  It looks to me more like the result of a single strong person visionary who can lead the company along his view of the future.  Apple certainly has a precedent for that, now gone.  But are any of the obvious candidates - Mansfield?  Cook?  Ive? Someone else? - that person? 

 

Of course it's Cook, the most underrated CEO in the world.  Cook is no Jobs, nobody is, but after working side by side with Cook for several years, you think Jobs would have picked him to takeover as Apple CEO if he were anything but top class?

post #56 of 366

Disclaimer:  I'm not a programmer, don't write apps for any platform.  I'm simply friends with someone who does.

 

Just an anecdote from my programmer friend.  We were watching the liveblog and chatting during it.  He's a programmer that builds rich content websites and has written a few apps for iOS, Android and Windows Phone 8.  His preferred phone was a WP8 Nokia but his current company is Google everything so he has an Android model right now.  His background is mostly Microsoft.

 

His comment when they revealed the 64-bit thing was that it was a "huge development" and that it was a really big deal for developers regardless of whether it took full advantage of larger amounts of RAM.  It was a "big time leap forward" for Apple to make that move.  He was thoroughly impressed.

 

TIFWIW.

post #57 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post

Samsung must not have doing the A7 or they would not have been caught flatfooted by Apple's 64-Bit launch. They probably had the contract for the 5C soc and thought that was all Apple was doing.

Haha!

 

Amazing piece of misdirection by Apple.  Fooled not only the whole banalyst community but their own first tier component suppliers.

post #58 of 366
Copying released products is one thing...copying confidential/privileged info/designs are another.

Samsung is finally being exposed since Apple has fallen from the tree.
post #59 of 366
Originally Posted by tooltalk
Well, I guess this is after all AI.  :no:

 

Samsung S2, S3, S4 all came out with Qualcomm Snapdragon (mostly US) and Samsung Exynos (international), while Samsung used Samsung Exynos, Qualcomm Snapdragon, Intel Atom chips (Galaxy Tab 3 10.1) for tablets. Samsung Chromebooks are also powered by dual-core Exynos.

 

Samsung is doomed.  LOL!

 

Notice how you're the only one saying anything like this whatsoever. 

 

Wonder if there's a reason for that.

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post #60 of 366
"No, our next Samsung phone will have a 65-bit processor. Because 64-bit is too small."

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #61 of 366
Not that I need to know any of this technical stuff, but it actually is fun to read about it, the way DED writes it. Apart from admiring D's deep knowledge and analytical skills, it makes me respect and admire Apple even more. It seems design is more than chamfered edges and pretty icons.
post #62 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post
 

 

Of course it's Cook, the most underrated CEO in the world.  Cook is no Jobs, nobody is, but after working side by side with Cook for several years, you think Jobs would have picked him to takeover as Apple CEO if he were anything but top class?

Jobs repeatedly compared Apple to the Beatles, its value is greater than the sum of its parts. I personally don't think Cook has the technical expertise for the technology, but I think he's wise enough to get out of Mansfield's way. Apple has a great pool of talented VPs, I think Cook recognizes that

post #63 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

64 Bit with only 1-2GB of RAM?

That is like blowing a 10 gallon air compressor through a straw!
Apple what the heck do you think you are doing?

That is nothing more than marketing ploy to get people reinterested in the smartphone as we are already seeing saturation in the market place.

No, it's not. There are significant advantages to a 64 bit processor, even if it only has 1-2 GB of RAM. Read up on one of the technical articles on the subject.
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post #64 of 366
Absolutely superb piece of investigative journalism. Mr. Dilger, you continue to set the bar high.
post #65 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

This article is full of useful information and good reporting BUT you badly need and editor.

 

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

Brilliant.  Just brilliant.

post #66 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post
 

 

Amazing piece of misdirection by Apple.  Fooled not only the whole banalyst community but their own first tier component suppliers.

 

I could not agree more.  And, like any wily member of the community practicing proper spycraft, Apple will now know the exact source of any leaks. Bravo on Apple for keeping this ploy under wraps and not trumpeting brazenly in the press.  Apple is combating industrial espionage, and doing a damn fine job at that.

post #67 of 366
Samsung copying ARM's bigLittle reference design isn't innovation. Apple engineered not only the micro-architecture of their new A7, but created the new M7 which probably contains its own processor. Not to mention the all the other coprocessors.

Funny thing is, is that Apple is a cofounder of ARM...
post #68 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lstream View Post

Quote:
Samsung was simply blindsided by the 64-bit A7. How it could be so left in the dark while spending months gearing up manufacturing of Apple's A7 is an opaque mystery unless Samsung wasn't ever involved in building it in the first place.

Isn't there an alternative explanation? That Samsung could not reveal that they knew about the 64 bit processor in advance? They likely promise Apple a firewall between components manufacturing and the rest of the business. So if they indeed knew, they had three choices:

1. Mention 64 bit before Apple announced. That announcement coming out of the blue with no context would make no sense. It would put a big red flag in front of Apple and tell the rest of its customers that the firewall is a sham. There is a difference between suspecting a sham, and knowing it. The only reason to say anything pre-5S launch would be to tell the world it knew what processor was coming in the 5S. Bad idea with no upside.

2. As played. Make their 64 bit lame announcement once the A7 was revealed. Sure it makes them look flat footed, but alternative 1 would do the same, with the added downside of adding to their unethical image. So now they are not content to copy and ship. They must pre-announce their intent to copy as part of their road map strategy.

3. Shut up until they can ship. This one doesn't seem to be in the vocabulary of the grand copier.

So regarding this one data point, is it not just as plausible that they knew about the A7 because they were building it, but were forced to keep quiet? After all, this is not the most sophisticated company in the world when it comes to the media.

Interesting question...

I hope it is true that someone other than Sammy makes the A7 -- and that Apple was able to pull this off under Sammy's nose -- kind of a poetic justice.

I do not know how much Sammy, as the foundry, needs to know about the Apple An chip internals -- whether it is necessary for setup, manufacturing, testing and QA...


But, it appears that internals of the A6 [when the iPhone 5 was released] were a surprise -- especially the 3 GPUs.


Is it possible that Apple deceived Sammy that the A6s that Sammy is building were a newer/faster incremental A6 upgrade that would serve both the the 5S (6AX) and 5C (6A) [underclocked and otherwise crippled *] -- While, at the same time, secretly taking the "big iron" A7 to TSMC??? After all, the 5S was supposed to be an iterative update...

If this is what happened, props to TC and TSMC... And, I wouldn't want to sit at a poker table facing Tim Cook


* when I was involved in semiconductor chip manufacturing, years ago (1963) -- they would target manufacturing at a latest-tech, high-priced product. Often, many chips would fail to meet specs when tested -- leading to low yields and high-prices. But, the chips that failed tests weren't discarded -- they were retested at a lower spec. Often, many chips would pass these tests -- resulting in acceptable, lower-tech chips at a lower price and higher yield. In the Apple world this would be:
  1. Targeting a build for A7X chips for the iPad, AppleTV, etc.
  2. Testing against the A7X spec
  3. Retesting rejects against the lower A7 spec.
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post #69 of 366
Originally Posted by Jack Zahran View Post
Funny thing is, is that Apple is a cofounder of ARM...


They've also been on the Blu-ray board since its creation.

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post #70 of 366

The best thing about the A7 from my perspective is that is shows Apple is still trying to push technology forward. They say SJ used to ask the impossible, but TC is also forcing his staff to go right to the limits of what can be done. Take the best that scientists and engineers can do and make real products out of it. The New Mac Pro and iPhone 5S are great examples of this.

post #71 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by janbanan View Post

Take note, tech "journalists". This is how you do tech journalism! The info is out there (google is your friend) once you are able to see behind the bullshit. It seems Daniel is one of the few people out there with the intellectual capacity and the guts to add the pieces of the puzzle, draw the logical conclusions and spell it out for the rest of us. Another brilliant analysis and piece of investigative journalism - bravo! I'm surprised nobody else commented on the poorly worded panicked statement from Samsung re 64-bit processors and rather jumped on the "phones don't need to address more than 4 GB memory" bandwagon (possibly a result of some quick-thinking Samsung PR people in the first place).

Apple has done it again - a 32 to 64-bit transition literally overnight - seemingly effortless for developers and consumers alike. Forcing the whole industry forward when the rest were trotting down a blind alley at their own pace - this is true innovation!

It's not really overnight because there are very few apps that will take advantage of the processor. It's a move that future proofs the 5s so it'll will be relevant in 2 years time when all the iPhones that Apple sells will have a 64 bit processor, and that's the genius part of it.

"very few apps that will take advantage of the processor"

The apps that count will!


And let's not forget the A7X variants for the next iPads and next AppleTV. In one move, Apple can:
  • differentiate itself from the competition in tablets
  • become a major player in the console game market with AppleTV
  • become the leader in a 4K capable AppleTV
  • create a new market in "personal TV" -- The AppleTV concurrently streams the same (or different) live or recorded videos to multiple iPads *

* Imagine the possibilities:  in the home;  in the meeting room;  in the board room;  in the classroom;  in the operating room;  on set (movie and broadcast/cable TV)
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post #72 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post
Check out Google Trend's mapping of interest in ARMv8 (below). It's been talked about over the last year, but typically in the context of servers, not mobile devices.

What server OS runs on ARM? Just curious.

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post #73 of 366
This needs to have "[Editorial]" before the headline.

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post #74 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Check out Google Trend's mapping of interest in ARMv8 (below). It's been talked about over the last year, but typically in the context of servers, not mobile devices.
What server OS runs on ARM? Just curious.

OS X.
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post #75 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by bottleworks View Post

This needs to have "[Editorial]" before the headline.

 

The blue EDITORIAL badge before the headline didn't tip you off?

 

The pathetic thing is that investors, the media, etc can't see past their own shadow, and don't appreciate the implications of all these large chess pieces that Apple is moving, confidently and methodically, to prepare themselves for the future. 

post #76 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

What server OS runs on ARM? Just curious.

OS X.

 

LOL, probably, but I just did some Googling and it turns out that in June 2013 at Red Hat convention in Boston, Fedora demoed the first full Linux distribution running on ARMv8. The article did not elaborate if it was SoC but I assume so.

 

The concept is still confusing as to updating the software. As we do it now we just copy some files into a directory but with SoC you have to flash the entire image and reboot don't you? Not exactly ideal for servers. I have servers that have been running 24/7 for  years without a reboot while we have upgraded various core server applications such as php, mysql, apache,etc, not the kernel though.


Edited by mstone - 9/14/13 at 10:23am

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post #77 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post
 

Another thing that allowed Apple to surprise everyone with 64-bit is OS X. It shares a core codebase with iOS, so they were able to test all their 64-bit code in the wild for years with no-one suspecting anything.

 

Very good point.  For sure Apple has been testing 64 bit for years, just like they were testing Intel chips for a decade before switching in the Mac.  It is the little things that make it possible to make a switch from 32 bit to 64 bit.  Often times we castigate Microsoft as being incompetent for its inability to pull of transitions that Apple makes look so easy.  In reality, Microsoft and Samsung aren't as stupid and incompetent as they appear.  They just don't have a culture of vision, planning, and attention to details that Apple has.

post #78 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

While Apple has been putting a lot of effort into its new luxury tier products, from the Retina Display MacBook Pros to its new Mac Pro, those products have relatively limited sales volume potential. 
 

 

I never thought of the Mac Pro as a luxury product. It's not a aberration like the TAM. The Mac Pro is for applications that needs lots of cores, like running Cinema 4D ray tracing. For a creative business that needs it, the Mac Pro will pay for itself.

 

Luxury is defined by individual need: if you need it, it's essential. If you don't need it, it's a luxury. I contend that the market for the Mac Pro is those professionals who need it. It is therefore not a luxury item for its intended market. Doesn't mean some people won't buy one and let the 12 cores go to waste, just for the privilege of having an "1337" computer.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Outside of backwards land, the Exynos 5 Octa was such an expensive failure that Samsung couldn't handle eating its own dog food within the most competitive market of Apple's home continent. It's not just big and inefficient, but appears to represent a dead end direction in mobile technology. 

This reality is particularly clear from two announcements Samsung recently made; the first was just prior to Apple's event, where the Korean giant floated news that it had developed a way to activate all 8 of its Exynos 5 cores at once, broadly interpreted as an attempt to distract from Apple's own announcements.

Secondly, there was Samsung's immediate reaction to Apple's A7 unveiling, where its co-CEO jumped to assure the media that it too is working on a 64-bit chip and will have one in its next smartphone at some future date, without really explaining why, apart from the obvious reason.

"Not in the shortest time," Samsung's co-CEO Shin Jong-kyun said, "but yes, our next smartphones will have 64-bit processing functionality."

Incredibly, this announcement garnered none of the frothy "64-bit is a hoax!" reactions from the media. When Samsung promises vaporware, it's serious stuff. When Apple delivers technology, pay no never mind! It's witchcraft after your soul! Run for the hills and hide in caves. Trust us, we have media credentials and have interviewed an expert.
 
These are all good points about the Exynos 5 Octa. It's neither mainstream today, nor the "right bet" on future direction of mobile processors. Activating all 8 cores sounds like the same act of desperation that a company caught cheating on clock speed to win mobile benchmarks would do. Funny how Anandtech and Ars Technica gave Samsung way too much benefit of the doubt on clockgate. They love Samsung.
 
Yes, it sounds like Shin is reacting to Apple, rather than stating some plan Samsung had all along for its next product. At least they have a clear target for next-gen mobile processors now: make 64-bit like A7. The Octa is a dead-end, like the Intel Itanium. I expect other ARM licensees to follow Samsung's lead in copying Apple. Steve Ballmer of 2007 would've guffawed at Apple's 64-bit mobile CPU announcement, and spend 3 years catching up to where his company could hold a mock funeral for the A7A10.
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Samsung was simply blindsided by the 64-bit A7. How it could be so left in the dark while spending months gearing up manufacturing of Apple's A7 is an opaque mystery unless Samsung wasn't ever involved in building it in the first place.

It could very well be that at some point between April and September, Apple rushed its A7 into production at Samsung, and that Apple managed to erect a firewall between its own A7 fabrication at Samsung's System LSI and the rest of Samsung's System LSI and Samsung Electronics' co-CEOs that worked better than the firewall between System LSI and the group that cloned the iPhone 3GS from Apple's blueprints.

But that doesn't seem very plausible.
 

I agree that it's not plausible. Chaebol family ties are stronger than any firewall. And Apple would not be following due diligence if it ignored that.

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post #79 of 366
One of the things that frustrates me about Dilger's writing is that he clearly spends a huge amount of time writing all-purpose notes about Apple. And then whenever there's a small point to be made, he copies huge SWATHES of these notes and ends up with having an ENORMOUS article. You have to pick through carefully to find the pertinent material. I've long since learned that there's not much to be gained. AI, please make it so I can tell who's written each story, so that I don't have to click these Dilger links.
post #80 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


It's all about laying the groundwork for future products.

 

I think that has to be right.

 

I don't think the A7 story has played out yet: the 64-bit architecture seems unnecessary for a phone (just as 4 cores do), just make the 32-bit cores go faster (as Apple did in A6). The 64-bit architecture brings more than removing the 4GB barrier bur doesn't seem to earn its keep (in a balanced, energy-efficient design). It brings heavy-weight compute that the new image-processing functions in the camera might exploit but surely that's not enough to justify it.

 

However, Apple does not do specs for their own sake so there's a reason somewhere. How about the free iWork apps being the consumers of the performance, providing content-creation so iWork online (in Internet Explorer) can compete with MS Office? So perhaps the coming new iPads will be the major beneficiaries of A7's power. That would be exciting.

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