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Apple invites developers to submit 64-bit apps for iPhone 5s

post #1 of 36
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Developers can now submit 64-bit third party applications for iPhone 5s, allowing their software to leverage the power made available with the new A7 processor and iOS 7 operating system.

a7-performance-20131009.jpg


Set to release this Friday, the iPhone 5s ships with the A7 CPU as well as a new version of iOS 7 compiled in 64 bits. Apple on Monday issued a note to developers, inviting them to now submit their 64-bit apps ahead of the iPhone 5s launch.

Currently, developers who wish to continue supporting iOS 6 will need to build their apps in 32-bit only. But Apple has promised that next month, changes will be made that will allow developers to support 32-bit on iOS 6 and both 32- and 64-bit on iOS 7 with a single binary.

"Xcode can build your app with both 32-bit and 64-bit binaries included so it works across all devices running iOS 7," Apple said.

When Apple announced the iPhone 5s last week, the company revealed that its custom A7 chip would be the first major 64-bit smartphone processor available on the market. The company has touted the A7 as a "desktop-class" chip with over a billion transistors.

The A7 is also twice as fast in raw processing power and graphics performance, and is a whopping 40 times faster than the chip found in the original iPhone. To take advantage of the 64-bit capabilities of the A7, Apple's iOS 7 mobile operating system has also been updated with a 64-bit kernel, libraries and drivers.
post #2 of 36
Fat Binaries FTW!

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post #3 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

developers who wish to continue supporting iOS 6 will need to build their apps in 32-bit only

Well that's a bit of an oversight.

Or maybe just overly optimistic. Maybe not.

Can't be many 3GSs left, can there?

iOS7 may just be a Leopard-esque -almost superficial- update, but I think those that can, will.
post #4 of 36
Why bother, Fandroids say Devs will develop for Android first.
post #5 of 36
Great, so after a binary for both ipad and iphone, we are now getting bloated binaries doing 64 bits as well ?

So much for 16 GB ....
post #6 of 36
I'd say at least 90% of iOS users will be on iOS7 by the end of the year. Not an issue.
post #7 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I'd say at least 90% of iOS users will be on iOS7 by the end of the year. Not an issue.

My feelings exactly

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post #8 of 36

But, the next line says that it will change next month.  It doesn't sound like performance of 32 bit apps will be any worse than they are now, so Apple isn't in a rush.  The 64bit performance boost will probably be more noticeable in future iPhones, when there's 4 GB of RAM in it.  They're probably a few years ahead of the curve, rather than a month behind on the product launch.

post #9 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I'd say at least 90% of iOS users will be on iOS7 by the end of the year. Not an issue.

Not an issue unless you're one of the potentially millions who can't afford to update their iPhone or iPod touch.

post #10 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I'd say at least 90% of iOS users will be on iOS7 by the end of the year. Not an issue.

Leaked copy already on my iPad. I was wrong about iOS 7 being ugly, it's actually beautiful in real life. New features are brilliant and intuitive.
post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax View Post

Can't be many 3GSs left, can there?

I saw a site selling refurbs just 2 months ago.
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
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post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by loekf View Post

Great, so after a binary for both ipad and iphone, we are now getting bloated binaries doing 64 bits as well ?

So much for 16 GB ....

 

Keep in mind that the vast majority of the bulk of most apps are the assets, graphics, sounds, stuff like that, not the actual code. A 64-bit/32-bit fat binary won't be double the size of the old 32-bit-only version of the app. In a lot of cases, the file size difference is going to be negligible.

post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax View Post


Well that's a bit of an oversight.

Or maybe just overly optimistic. Maybe not.

Can't be many 3GSs left, can there?

iOS7 may just be a Leopard-esque -almost superficial- update, but I think those that can, will.

 

I think you're missing the important bit. The article says that in about a month Apple will release some changes (I assume an updated version of XCode) that will allow devs to release 32bit for ios6 and 64bit/32bit for ios7 all in one binary. This means that all a dev has to do is hold off on updating their app to 64 bit until this XCode change is released, and they won't leave any ios6 people behind at all, not even temporarily.

post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by loekf View Post

Great, so after a binary for both ipad and iphone, we are now getting bloated binaries doing 64 bits as well ?

So much for 16 GB ....

 

Have you any ideal of how much the binaries of an apps weight proportionally of the assets?  The file size increase per architecture is pretty negligible.

post #15 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinpublic View Post
 

But, the next line says that it will change next month.  It doesn't sound like performance of 32 bit apps will be any worse than they are now, so Apple isn't in a rush.  The 64bit performance boost will probably be more noticeable in future iPhones, when there's 4 GB of RAM in it.  They're probably a few years ahead of the curve, rather than a month behind on the product launch.

 

Get off the 4 GB bandwagon and read up on all the other usefulness of using a 64-bit processor, more specifically the A7.

post #16 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post
 

Not an issue unless you're one of the potentially millions who can't afford to update their iPhone or iPod touch.

 

anyone with an iPhone that old should be able to upgrade for free to an iPhone 4s that supports iOS7.

post #17 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinpublic View Post
 

But, the next line says that it will change next month.  It doesn't sound like performance of 32 bit apps will be any worse than they are now, so Apple isn't in a rush.  The 64bit performance boost will probably be more noticeable in future iPhones, when there's 4 GB of RAM in it.  They're probably a few years ahead of the curve, rather than a month behind on the product launch.

 

Yet another who taught 64 bit computing is only good for allocating more ram... 

 

So according to you, there is absolutely no gain for Intel Core2Duo over the CoreDuo line up? Or does the G5 or Athlon64 was a FUD?  

 

This will be the third 64bit transition for Apple, the other two couldn't be more smooth for users and developers. 

post #18 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post

I think you're missing the important bit. The article says...

The reason I called it an "oversight" is because they hadn't done it and are now
post #19 of 36
Quote:
Keep in mind that the vast majority of the bulk of most apps are the assets, graphics, sounds, stuff like that, not the actual code. A 64-bit/32-bit fat binary won't be double the size of the old 32-bit-only version of the app. In a lot of cases, the file size difference is going to be negligible.

 

In addition the instruction set on 64-bit A7 is still 32-bits. There may be arguments passed as 64-bits but in general the code size will not change that much.

 

<edit: responded to wrong post>


Edited by patpatpat - 9/16/13 at 2:34pm
post #20 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax View Post


Well that's a bit of an oversight.

Or maybe just overly optimistic. Maybe not.

Can't be many 3GSs left, can there?

iOS7 may just be a Leopard-esque -almost superficial- update, but I think those that can, will.

 

There is still several million people out there with those devices or there might be some that might not transition to iOS 7 that has a model previous to the 5s.

post #21 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyDax View Post


The reason I called it an "oversight" is because they hadn't done it and are now

 

Ah, sorry, I guess I misunderstood.

post #22 of 36
Hello all. The 64 Bit is setting the stage for EZ apps across iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch and Mac...even the new Apple TV will have 64 bit...
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

 

There is still several million people out there with those devices or there might be some that might not transition to iOS 7 that has a model previous to the 5s.

 

In a month, AS THE ARTICLE STATES, the developer has the choice to support iOS6 32bit AND/OR iOS 7 32/64 bit from the same xCode kit.   

 

In other words, don't blame Apple, blame the developer.   This would be no different from a change in an API/SDK that is not in iOS6.  The developer could decide not support those not upgrading, or they fork the code and build 2 apps… one for the left behinds, and one for the current state.

 

Technology marches onward.  Every once and a while there is a HW change that drives developers to decide how to handle those that don't upgrade.  This is one of those times.  It appears (on the face… details may tell us otherwise) that apple has balanced technical secrecy and developer support as best as they could.


Edited by TheOtherGeoff - 9/16/13 at 3:02pm
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
 

 

In a month, AS THE ARTICLE STATES, the developer has the choice to support iOS6 32bit AND/OR iOS 7 32/64 bit from the same xCode kit.   

 

In other words, don't blame Apple, blame the developer.   This would be no different from a change in an API/SDK that is not in iOS6.  The developer could decide not support those not upgrading, or they fork the code and build 2 apps… one for the left behinds, and one for the current state.

 

Technology marches onward.  Every once and a while there is a HW change that drives developers to decide how to handle those that don't upgrade.  This is one of those times.  It appears (on the face… details may tell us otherwise) that apple has balanced technical secrecy and developer support as best as they could.

 

They aren't saying that Developers should only do 32 bit, but Apple is telling these guys, do the 32/64 but if they just want to support iOS 6, which WILL fade away at whatever rate, to do 32 bit only, but they would be better off if they did 32/64, because in a year from now, the iPhone 5C will be the bottom end model and the 5S will be the second tier model as there will be a 6 which will have the A8 processor which will be faster this and better that.   And then in two years from now, the 6 will be second tier, the 5S will be the bottom and the 7 will have the A9 processor which will be another incremental improvement in processor.  So, two years from now, all iPhone models sold will be 64 bit and then over the course of a year or so, 32 bit will be completely gone.  Same rules will apply to iPads.

post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

I'd say at least 90% of iOS users will be on iOS7 by the end of the year. Not an issue.

 

Agreed, adoption rate for iOS is phenomenal, to say the least.  6 is at 98% right now.

post #26 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinpublic View Post
 

But, the next line says that it will change next month.  It doesn't sound like performance of 32 bit apps will be any worse than they are now, so Apple isn't in a rush.  The 64bit performance boost will probably be more noticeable in future iPhones, when there's 4 GB of RAM in it.  They're probably a few years ahead of the curve, rather than a month behind on the product launch.

 

The 4Gig argument is getting old.  There are a metric crap ton of reasons for 64bit over the memory stuff.  How about bigger single instructions, (doing more with one instruction vs 32bit).  Faster to idle because of that, saving power, and accomplishing  more faster.  Those are just a few.  There are a lot more.  One of the only reasons the fingerprint sensor is so fast at reading and not slow like all of the rest of the previous ones on laptops and computers is because of the 64bit instruction set in iOS 7 and the A7's extra 64bit registers.

If people want a good education on what the A7 means at 64 bit  read this: http://www.realworldtech.com/arm64/
 
If your not technical in nature this article may glaze your eyes over but its very good (and very technical).
post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyo View Post
 

 

Keep in mind that the vast majority of the bulk of most apps

I love the vast majority of the bulk of most but not quite all of somewhat a bushel of around half of these kinds of sentences. Sorry, couldn't resist.

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post #28 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
 

 

The 4Gig argument is getting old.  There are a metric crap ton of reasons for 64bit over the memory stuff.  How about bigger single instructions, (doing more with one instruction vs 32bit).  Faster to idle because of that, saving power, and accomplishing  more faster.  Those are just a few.  There are a lot more.  One of the only reasons the fingerprint sensor is so fast at reading and not slow like all of the rest of the previous ones on laptops and computers is because of the 64bit instruction set in iOS 7 and the A7's extra 64bit registers.

If people want a good education on what the A7 means at 64 bit  read this: http://www.realworldtech.com/arm64/
Disclaimer: I'm not an electrical engineer. That said, I did look through that article. On page 1 it states the primary motivation for moving to 64 bits:
Quote:
 One of the main motivations for ARMv8 was memory addressing. The existing architecture was limited to a 4GB virtual address space, which is an uncomfortable constraint for systems with 2GB or more physical memory. The first round of 64-bit extensions were developed in the 1990′s for server-oriented RISC families. In the early 2000′s, the client-centric x86 bumped into the same virtual memory limitations and was extended to x86-64. Now a decade after x86, ARM-based tablets routinely ship with 1-2GB of memory, approaching the practical limit.
Does the article discuss other major benefits of 64 bits? It seems that for non-memory constrained programs that don't do a lot of 64-bit arithmetic, the numerous other architectural improvements in ARMv8, not the 64 bit registers, would account for most of the performance increase. 

Edited by d4NjvRzf - 9/17/13 at 6:45am
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
 

 

One of the only reasons the fingerprint sensor is so fast at reading and not slow like all of the rest of the previous ones on laptops and computers is because of the 64bit instruction set in iOS 7 and the A7's extra 64bit registers.

 

Are you suggesting that the A7 with its extra registers is faster than desktop and laptop processors, which have been at 64 bit since the days of Pentium D and Athlon 64? Linux distributions were ported to amd64 long ago. Yet fingerprint readers didn't magically become faster under Linux. The speed of the fingerprint reader is constrained by the sensor, not by the available CPU power. The Authentec sensor is simply better compared to previous ones.


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 9/16/13 at 11:41pm
post #30 of 36

I'm wondering how Android will handle this shift, will apps be optimized or will it just be 64bit hardware marketed as the latest greatest but the software remains 32bit? Android fragmentation means they definitely need fat binaries, and what about Windows 8? Or Blackberry. Those last 2, as if they don't have enough problems Apple!?

post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by murman View Post
 

I'm wondering how Android will handle this shift, will apps be optimized or will it just be 64bit hardware marketed as the latest greatest but the software remains 32bit? Android fragmentation means they definitely need fat binaries, and what about Windows 8? Or Blackberry. Those last 2, as if they don't have enough problems Apple!?

 

64-bit java has been around a long time as have 64-bit linux kernels. I don't think the Android OS shift to 64-bits is as difficult as you think. I don't know where you're getting the fat binaries from. Java 64-bit apks are going to be about as bloated as IOS 64-bit apps, which is very little. There will likely be 64 bit versions and 32 bit versions of apps, just like on IOS.
In addition java byte code is platform independent the same application compiled under 32bit javac will work perfectly fine on a 64bit processor. The main effort is porting the jvm and any native interfaces


Edited by patpatpat - 9/17/13 at 6:37am
post #32 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 
Disclaimer: I'm not an electrical engineer. That said, I did look through that article. On page 1 it states the primary motivation for moving to 64 bits:
Does the article discuss other major benefits of 64 bits? It seems that for non-memory constrained programs that don't do a lot of 64-bit arithmetic, the numerous other architectural improvements in ARMv8, not the 64 bit registers, would account for most of the performance increase. 

 

There is the quote from the article you've seams to deliberately step over it:

 

Quote:
Last year, ARM announced the 64-bit ARMv8 for Application processors. The new architecture is elegant, backwards compatible, and removes several crufty features from the existing ARMv7
post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

 

There is the quote from the article you've seams to deliberately step over it:

 

Is the removal of those "crufty features" related to the 64 bit transition? We were discussing specifically the benefits of 64 bits vs 32 bit, not the numerous other improvements. I mean, x86-64 CPUs have various improvements over the earlier x86 processors. The core 2 duo will run programs much faster than a pentium 4 would. But if you run two versions of the same program on the same x86-64 cpu, the only difference being the build target, you won't see much of a performance difference unless your program uses a lot of 64 bit arithmetic. For instance, if you run numerical simulations on the same CPU with both the 32-bit and 64-bit builds of Matlab, the 64-bit build will tend to run a bit faster. But 32 bit matlab on a Core i7 will definitely outperform 64 bit matlab on a Core 2, because the other architectural improvements of the Core i series matter much more.


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 9/17/13 at 8:16am
post #34 of 36
 Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

Is the removal of those "crufty features" related to the 64 bit transition? We were discussing specifically the benefits of 64 bits vs 32 bit, not the numerous other improvements. I mean, x86-64 CPUs have various improvements over the earlier x86 processors. The core 2 duo will run programs much faster than a pentium 4 would. But if you run two versions of the same program on the same x86-64 cpu, the only difference being the build target, you won't see much of a performance difference unless your program uses a lot of 64 bit arithmetic. For instance, if you run numerical simulations on the same CPU with both the 32-bit and 64-bit builds of Matlab, the 64-bit build will tend to run a bit faster. But 32 bit matlab on a Core i7 will definitely outperform 64 bit matlab on a Core 2, because the other architectural improvements of the Core i series matter much more.

 

I do consider any major architecture changes imply with the new ARM AArch64 as related to new generation transition. Just like the G5 or x86-64 CPU before, the A7 have numerous internal improvement over the earlier ARMv7 architecture beneficial to already existing Apps, which is explained in great detail in the article.  Beside why are you narrowing your mind on numerical simulation who have much less to do with CPU than FPU?  You know common usage for CPU is acting as an "Data Pump" to move big chunk of Data between I/Os, having more and bigger registers greatly improve performance with great efficiency


Edited by BigMac2 - 9/17/13 at 3:13pm
post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

 

I do consider any major architecture changes imply with the new ARM AArch64 as related to new generation transition. Just like the G5 or x86-64 CPU before, the A7 have numerous internal improvement over the earlier ARMv7 architecture beneficial to already existing Apps, which is explained in great detail in the article.  Beside why are you narrowing your mind on numerical simulation who have much less to do with CPU than FPU?  You know common usage for CPU is acting as an "Data Pump" to move big chunk of Data between I/Os, having more and bigger registers greatly improve performance with great efficiency

 

I stand corrected. ARMv8 bundles most of its improvements with the A64 instruction set. A32 is there for backward compatibility, but a program has to be built for A64 to reap most of the performance improvements. 

post #36 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

 

I stand corrected. ARMv8 bundles most of its improvements with the A64 instruction set. A32 is there for backward compatibility, but a program has to be built for A64 to reap most of the performance improvements. 

 

I agree, programs need to be built for AArch64 to get most of the new improvements.  Still older apps should gain better benefit from the new ARMv8 architecture than going the Samsung way of adding more cores.


Edited by BigMac2 - 9/18/13 at 8:49am
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