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Inside Apple's 64-bit iOS 7 and the prospects for a 64-bit Android - Page 6

post #201 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

FWIW, I just played around with a friend's Note II using 4.1.1, which is the latest OS he has for it.  I don't know how else to say this, but that has to be the worst OS's I've ever seen.  The way it's laid out is just too confusing.  My friend HATES using that stupid stylus, it's HORRIBLE.  I don't how one can use that OS and not want to take their device and throw it on the ground and proceed to smash it with a hammer.

 

I'm watching him fumble around with the device trying to do what should be VERY simple and not being able to do something within  a few seconds.    He actually got the point where he almost threw the thing on the ground in frustration.

 

Just to get the thing to tether to his iPhone 4 was a 10 minute ordeal.  It would constantly disconnect.  Tethering my iPad to my iPhone 4 literally takes about a minute and the connection is rock solid.  Rarely does it disconnect.  I usually have to stop using my iPad for an extended period of time before the thing disconnects.

 

This is the result of samsung's OS development efforts when most of the heavy lifting is already done before they even begin. What's going to happen when they have to develop the rest of the OS by themselves, namely, Tizen? Google releases a new iteration of android about every six months. With their billions in cash, Samsung needs more than six months just to update their own mediocre UI skin and gimmicky features for a select few of their devices. Will Tizen devices see updates at all?

 

Samsung thinks it's better at software than it actually is.


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 9/18/13 at 6:34am
post #202 of 222

How can you be so certain? The proof of the pudding is always in the eating, What is certain is that there are a lot of 'panic monkeys' swinging through the trees after the Apple presentation. Greatrix

post #203 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

Wrong. It has already been stated that Kit Kat, Android's soon to be released new version, will have 64 bit support and Samsung clearly stated its next phone, likely the Galaxy S5, will have a 64 bit processor. These don't happen overnight. They've already been working on them before the iPhone and iOS announcements.
Stated by who? Certainly not Google.
post #204 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesocyclone View Post

This analysis is pretty bad.

First, on the advantages of 64 bit to iOS, most of the analysis focuses on features of the 64 bit chip that are unrelated to the fact that it is 64bit. You could have those same features on 32 bit. Hence it is really discussing the advantages of a 64 bit ARM in particular, not 64 bits.

There are a couple of advantages to 64bit that are barely mentioned: faster at high precision math, and faster at handling >4GB memory in a single application.

Whoopee. For a few apps, the math is a big deal. In the future, >4GB memory will be of some interest.

The Android analysis gets an F- - it is extremely wrong.

I won't go into all the errors - it would take to much work.

Critically: the assertion is that it would be harder to port Android (and Android apps) to 64 bit. The opposite is true!

Porting Android requires porting *one* piece of code: dalvik. Applications don't have to even be touched, and there's no cost (unlike iOS) for using apps targeted at 32 bit.

If we were to believe the author's bizarre argument (apps aren't native code so they are harder to port), we'd have to turn upside down the whole reason people went to high level languages and VM's!

In fact, it is the apps that use native code (C) that might, depending on the app, require some porting if they were to run as 64 bit apps. This is just like *all* Objective C apps - every one has the potential to require code changes for 64 bit. Some will actually require it even though they don't need 64 bit at all.

The erst of the Android stuff may sound fine to Apple fan bois, but to those of use working in the Android space, it's just nonsense.
Nicely summed up!
post #205 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
...

And you're wrong Apple has design their Ax chips from A to Z using their ARM architectural licences.  

 

And how do you know that? From what we have seen of Ax under xray so far its just a vanilla ARM with modified SRAM controller and a huge on-chip memory.

 

Do you have access to any other information you would like to share?

post #206 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatjoe View Post
 

 

And how do you know that? From what we have seen of Ax under xray so far its just a vanilla ARM with modified SRAM controller and a huge on-chip memory.

 

Do you have access to any other information you would like to share?

 

Yes, I do have seen X-ray images of the A4-A5-A5x-A6-A6x,  have you ever read Chipworks.com SoC teardown?  ARM doesn't have a vanilla hardware design, they have automatic layout software and specs sheet, but no hardware implementation.  Chipworks analysis clearly demonstrate Apple Ax custom layout is unrelated to Samsung or Qualcomm design. 

post #207 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

FWIW, I just played around with a friend's Note II using 4.1.1, which is the latest OS he has for it.  I don't know how else to say this, but that has to be the worst OS's I've ever seen.  The way it's laid out is just too confusing.  My friend HATES using that stupid stylus, it's HORRIBLE.  I don't how one can use that OS and not want to take their device and throw it on the ground and proceed to smash it with a hammer.

 

I'm watching him fumble around with the device trying to do what should be VERY simple and not being able to do something within  a few seconds.    He actually got the point where he almost threw the thing on the ground in frustration.

 

Just to get the thing to tether to his iPhone 4 was a 10 minute ordeal.  It would constantly disconnect.  Tethering my iPad to my iPhone 4 literally takes about a minute and the connection is rock solid.  Rarely does it disconnect.  I usually have to stop using my iPad for an extended period of time before the thing disconnects.

You must have a pretty stupid "friend"! Tell your "friend" he DOESN'T have to use the stylus if he thinks it's horrible!

post #208 of 222
Originally Posted by animositee View Post
 

The move to 64 bit may not have many advantages in mobile phones ...

 

I think it does.  Vastly improved performance of iOS devices is just one of the benefits for Apple.  From what I've read about Android and Tizen, there are enormous technical hurdles preventing easy migration to 64-bit CPUs.  On the other hand, iOS is essentially a stripped-down OS X.  And OS X made the transition to 64-bits years ago.  OS X and iOS are now 64-bits all the way from the UI to the bare metal of the CPU.  Kernel, libraries, and drivers.  

 

Of course, it may take a year before all 3rd party iOS apps are all 64-bit enabled.  But it's just a matter of choosing a menu item and clearing up some warnings in Xcode.  Takes anywhere from a second to an hour.  There will be an interim period (maybe 2 years?) of Universal binaries containing both 32-bit and 64-bit executables.  Apple has been through this several times already for the 68K -> PPC, PPC -> Intel, and 32-bit -> 64-bit transitions on Mac OS and OS X.  Been there, done that.

 

 

Originally Posted by animositee View Post
 

Why wouldn't Apple introduce a lower-cost gaming platform with a plethora of apps which can be ported over with little frustration at the same time they bring out the next iPad. I would argue that the move to 64-bit may have been a little premature in the mobile industry however it is essential to entering the gaming market.

 

Question: Will Apple release a legacy gaming console?

Answer: Only if there's enough money in it.

 

I don't think there's enough money in the legacy gaming console market for Apple to be interested.

Apple might be perfectly happy to let Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo beat each other up in that market.

Bigger fish to fry, e.g. remaking the television industry in Apple's image.

 

Also, "TV apps" might require yet another App Store, and even worse, a totally new control mechanism.

So far, Apple seems to be leaning toward AirPlay on iOS devices instead of discrete "TV apps."

 

And no, Apple's 64-bit advances aren't "premature."

Everyone else is simply falling behind.  Further and further each year.


Edited by SockRolid - 9/18/13 at 11:40am

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post #209 of 222

Anandtech.com has an excellent in-depth review of the 5s and A7 performance.

post #210 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

First I would like to thank you for providing a detailed counter to my position without the sarcasm, this is what I was looking for in the beginning. I wish that more people were like you.

 

You make great points, however I will still hold on to the hope that Apple does indeed move away from AirPlay because it is more complicated and expensive then a regular console and moves to a lower cost platform with lower cost standalone controllers. Apple does indeed like to stay in the premium market, albeit I believe that it would be a worthwhile investment to enter a lower price bracket.

 

Again thank you for your honorable conduct in intellectual discussions furthering my education.

post #211 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

You can read the posts. They’re literally right there above you. Click the links and trace the line backward. Stop acting like an idiot, stop pretending you need your hand held through understanding the English language. Siri is better at conversational context than you have exhibited here.

 

I have taken your suggestion under careful consideration and have reread every post to try and make sense of this debacle. Here is the summary for your convenience.

 

My first post was laying out what actions Apple has taken that could be perceived as an attempt to enter the console gaming market. The following are my main points.

All next generation consoles “are all 64-bit”

64-bit chips are “most beneficial to games”

Introducing 64-bit on their most popular product will ensure the greatest adoption rate.

Also introduce the 64-bit processors to developers

Both Sony and Microsoft are coming out with their next generation consoles soon.

Apple released designs and API’s for both standalone controllers and iPhone attachments.

Introducing a lower cost gaming platform would expand it’s market share.

 

You then responded with, “Because they already have one, contained in all iDevices.”

 

Unfortunately iDevices are not LOW-COST totaling $560 bucks minimum to buy two iPod Touches and an ATV (and that’s only two people) compared to $360 for a PS3 and two controllers. You clearly didn’t read.

 

I respond with the following points.

-Gaming using Airplay doesn’t “feel” the same as my Xbox 360 or PS3, which is true.

-Apple’s introduction of a standalone controller “design” wouldn’t make sense unless it was for a larger screen.

 

You respond with, “It should roughly feel the same” and “Because they’ve done no such thing? Restricting developers to a set and configuration of buttons is exactly the opposite of the idea of iOS devices.”

 

Well roughly the same and the same are not the same. lol. And they did release a standalone controller “design”, sorry. ebernet also told you that Apple had released the “design” and API’s for MFi, so I wasn’t even the only one. Instead of just saying NO and pretending like you know everything, do some research once in a while. I know I have to all the time.

 

I responded with a link showing you that indeed Apple had released controller “designs” and then further detailed why Apple’s release of a standalone controller indicates gaming on a TV versus a small screen iPhone or iPad. Simply put “it wouldn’t be a very good experience” crowding around such a small screen. I then tell you why AirPlay isn’t as good as a dedicated console, because it doesn’t work as well, is complicated and lags from time to time with multiple players while admitting that the lag could be fixed... Furthermore buttons and joysticks are simply superior controls when it comes to certain games.

 

You respond with.. “But it’s not an Apple product.”

 

Well you got me there, O wait I never said it was... I said it was a DESIGN. Again clearly not taking the time to actually read what someone else has posted for intellectual discussion.

 

And you said “Well, that’s how consoles do it. Four people crowd around one single controller and they…” 

 

What!?

 

I don’t know how you play on a PS3 but usually four people don’t use one controller, they use FOUR!

 

Again in my next post I explain why using a standalone controller would be far more useful for a TV then an iPad or iPhone. “A small screen even with multiple controllers is a sub-par experience.”

 

You then respond with, “I just… I don’t get why this was so difficult a conclusion to come to: Use. Multiple. iDevices. On. The. Same. TV.”

 

I respond by saying that 4 iDevices are very expensive whereas “a standalone controller would offer a lower-cost solution for this exact reason.” And i have to REPEAT myself again saying that when multiple controllers are used it lags while maintaining that “A dedicated TV gaming platform with a lower cost standalone controller would provide a better overall experience.”

 

Instantly forgetting what was just said, you respond with “Because you alone can use four of them at once? NO. Because your friends come over with their own iOS devices and you play some effing games together. Heck, quoted below PROVES you don’t mean that, so why would you even say it at all?!” and “Yeah, that can’t possibly change in the future ever at any time for any reason.”

 

To assume that everyone likes Apple products and is willing to “throw down a couple hundred” for an iDevice is just asinine. Many of my friends are Android and Microsoft fans and I wouldn't expect them to buy an iDevice just to come over and play games. Therefore “providing” a LOWER-COST standalone controller “necessary to play would be nice”. Do you expect your friends to bring over their own Xbox controller, well I hope not. On top of that, you completely forgot I had admitted to Apple potentially fixing the lag with an update already. And you tell me I have trouble with english...

 

So in conclusion I gave a reasonable guess that Apple could enter the console gaming market and then provided supporting evidence. While you ignored the biggest factor of all, COST! And refused to do any research on my supporting claims immediately assuming that Apple would never “restrict developers to a set and configuration of buttons.” And although Apple isn’t requiring the controller support from developers they sure see the value in it, otherwise they wouldn’t have introduced the API’s.

 

I apologize for the comment about giving Apple fans a bad name, that was one of my friends who is an Droid fan, however he did have a point. And I assume that this summary will clear up any misunderstandings you had. lol.

post #212 of 222
I'm no tech, but couldn't a 64 bit iPad 5 with 4 gigs of ram run the upcoming "Mavericks?" if yes, what does that mean for pc and Mac industry?
post #213 of 222
Originally Posted by johnnick3 View Post
couldnt a 64 bit iPad 5 with 4 gigs of ram run the upcoming "Mavericks?"

 

Physically? Yes, provided Apple has a version of OS X that is built for ARM and stripped of everything that makes it powerful on X86. Would it be anything that anyone would actually want to use under any circumstance? No. OS X is built for a single source of input and will never be anything else.

post #214 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnick3 View Post

I'm no tech, but couldn't a 64 bit iPad 5 with 4 gigs of ram run the upcoming "Mavericks?" if yes, what does that mean for pc and Mac industry?

 

You're basically thinking about a surface pro, in other words, a single device designed for both desktop and tablet applications. That concept will probably need to wait a bit before it can be realized without major tradeoffs. The surface pro uses a full-powered core i5 cpu to handle desktop workloads, but gives up a lot of battery life as a result. On the other hand, while the A7 is a significant improvement over its predecessor, it's not nearly enough to run Mavericks (assuming that Mavericks were ported to ARM without being stripped down). As Anandtech remarked in its iphone 5s review,

Quote:
 Apple continues to build its own SoCs and invest in them because honestly, no one else seems up to the job. Only recently do we have GPUs competitive with what Apple has been shipping, and with the A7 Apple nearly equals Intel's performance with Bay Trail on the CPU side. As far as Macs go though, there's still a big gap between the A7 and where Intel is at with Haswell. The deficiency that Intel had in the ultra mobile space simply doesn't translate to its position with the big Core chips. I don't see Apple bridging that gap anytime soon. 
post #215 of 222

It is articles like this that keep me coming to Apple Insider. Great work. For those who think that Google can equal the 64 bit transition that Apple is making: we'll see. I suspect that the article is right: there will be a feigned transition so that they can save face against Apple. But my guess is also that the tech-idiot media will give them a free ride when they do badly what Apple today  is doing properly. Because…well… that is what the idiot tech media love to do.

 

"Boo to Apple!" "Yay to any competitor of Apple — 'cause that's real computing!" I've been listening to the same line of bullshit since 1985 — it never changes, it never grows up. 

AppleInsider = Apple-in-cider. It's a joke!

I've used macs since 1985 when I typed up my first research paper. Never used anything else never wanted to.
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AppleInsider = Apple-in-cider. It's a joke!

I've used macs since 1985 when I typed up my first research paper. Never used anything else never wanted to.
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post #216 of 222
Quote:
Nowadays, we've seem to have lost the idea how much 1GB of RAM actually is. My first computer had 4MB of RAM and 80MB HDD 
You young whippersnappers have it easy. My first computer had 16KB of RAM, and no hard drive - hell, it didn't even have a floppy drive. I used repurposed audio tape for storage. I was in heaven when the next one had 1MB of RAM and a pair of floppy drives - talk about coding in luxury. ;)
post #217 of 222
One interesting tidbit from anandtech review is that he reckons the A7 is produced by Samsung.
post #218 of 222
Excellent analysis once again.
post #219 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

 

To be fair, iOS was also designed initially for low-memory low-powered devices like the original iPhone. Moreover, it debuted mainly as a platform for web apps, and only later were provisions for third-party apps added in.

 

Of course iOS is designed for low-memory low-powered devices! That is the beauty of it! That is a main reason precisely why Apple's approach does show processing gains while the approaches of others do not! That is why others complain that it can't be done and that this must be mere marketing fluff -- because the others can't pull it off! That is why Android requires more and more GPU cores and RAM and other resources to be thrown at it in order to function smoothly, but it still can't match the performance per power usage of and battery life of iOS devices.

 

Yeah, iOS was designed, you got that right! Apple intentionally designs to constraints, others lazily wait for the time they can just throw more resources at an issue, to deal with all the cruft that has built up over the years -- as with Windows. That's Apple products for you -- "unashamedly designed"

 

Now, as to the second part of your claim: "Debuted " does not mean it wasn't capable from the start.  iOS is from OS X and NeXT. It had the capability. Apple just didn't have the inclination to manage at that point an ecosystem as a walled garden in the way that they believed it should be managed. I mean, give me a break, you might as well say a device wasn't capable of being used as a personal music player because it didn't "debut" with earphones in the same box.

Edited by krabbelen - 9/20/13 at 3:58am
post #220 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

[^ post]

As always, excellent points and post!

PS jeukt het nog steeds?
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post #221 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodGrief View Post
You young whippersnappers have it easy. My first computer had 16KB of RAM, and no hard drive - hell, it didn't even have a floppy drive. I used repurposed audio tape for storage. I was in heaven when the next one had 1MB of RAM and a pair of floppy drives - talk about coding in luxury. ;)

 

Sometime I missed my TRS-80 with tape cassette, everything was so simple back then, no OS to take care of, computers boots instantly... I still remember how awesome it was when I've got my first Mac IIx with 8Meg of ram.  

post #222 of 222

Google is replacing Darvik with the Android Runtime (ART). This should obviate the need to update Dalvik. Not disagreeing with anything you said, just saying...

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