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Apple's Touch ID already bypassed with established 'fake finger' technique - Page 2

post #41 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

The guys offering the reward put up a notice about CCC on their site. I hope they don't accept an edited video - it needs to be a complete video of the entire process in real time. This is important as it shows just what's involved.

You can keep up with the status here from one of the two researchers who set up the challenge.
https://twitter.com/nickdepetrillo
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post #42 of 319
Hmmm,

This seems to be fake.

Apple have already explained that the Touch ID cannot be fooled by a 2-D image because the sub-epidermal image it creates is 3-D not 2-D.

Yet these Germans are claiming that a 2-D image on a thin transparent film fooled the Touch ID sensor

Also Apple say the Touch ID sensor cannot be fooled by a dead fingerprint because it will only read the sub-epidermal layers of a live finger.

SO HOW DID THEY FAKE IT?

It looks very simple.

Notice how the same finger used teach Touch ID the fingerprint was then used to pick up a thin transparent film and put it on the sensor WITH THE LIVE FINGER on top of the thin transparent layer..

It seems then that the Touch ID sensor, which uses capacitors and RF to see through the dead skin of a fingerprint to read the sub-epidermal layers to create the 3-D image, then looked THROUGH the thin transparent film at the SAME LIVE FINGERPRINT used to teach Touch ID the fingerprint pattern.

In other words it was not reading the transparent film at all, but the real fingerprint touching the transparent film

Let's see if I'm right. If I am how many millions of dollars do I get....LOL

Any comments
post #43 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


No one has proven touch id is a mistake. All that's been proven is the Internet will run with anything if it might put Apple in a bad light.

 

Yeah, mistake is the wrong word. I was just initially taken aback by how quickly a bypass was found, and the rather traditional old-world way that bypass was carried out. The only thing new  being the higher-resolution scans and printouts used.

post #44 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secular Investor View Post

Hmmm,

This seems to be fake.

Apple have already explained that the Touch ID cannot be fooled by a 2-D image because the sub-epidermal image it creates is 3-D not 2-D.

Yet these Germans are claiming that a 2-D image on a thin transparent film fooled the Touch ID sensor

Chaos Computer Club has been around for years and reportedly has a great rep in the security community. I doubt what they did was faked but anything is possible. With that said the rules for the bounty are pretty strict and CCC might not meet all of them. It takes a bit of time to do the requested video but I'd imagine there should be something more to go on within hours.
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post #45 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


No one has proven touch id is a mistake. All that's been proven is the Internet will run with anything if it might put Apple in a bad light.

 

Yeah, mistake is the wrong word. I was just initially taken aback by how quickly a bypass was found, and the rather traditional old-world way that bypass was carried out. The only thing new  being the higher-resolution scans and printouts used.

That seems to be the interesting aspect. Seems the Apple implementation is not significantly more resistant to hacking than any of the previous implementations. Still useful as a convenience, but hardly an innovative breakthrough.

post #46 of 319
These two bits in the article really undermine any pretence that AI is a balanced (or indeed sensible) publication:

"In addition, a would-be thief would need access to the iPhone itself after the fake is produced."

No kidding. But the same is true of getting past any security element - you to have a way to access a specific lock to pick it. Since we are talking about lock picking here, rather than getting around lock without opening it.

"Also not taken into account is Apple's Find My iPhone app, which allows a lost or stolen phone to be wiped remotely. This leaves the window for breaking into the 5s very small, and would likely thwart all but the most dedicated criminals."

What1?!? How about anyone who kept the iPhone it in a signal procf environment, or removed the SIM card, or ....
Again Find My iPhone has no relevance to finger print security. It has relevance to overall iPhone security.
The existance of Find My iPhone functionality will not deter anyone. The hastle of faking the print, that will deter casual people.

This group are talking about the use of finger prints as a security method in general.
Regardless of device.
They are not talking about the security of the iPhone (as a collection of elements or in comparison to anything else).

The article would be far more interesting and relevant without these two crackpot bits.
Oh well, have to give up on AI for balance and sense....
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post #47 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983 View Post

Yeah, mistake is the wrong word. I was just initially taken aback by how quickly a bypass was found, and the rather traditional old-world way that bypass was carried out. The only thing new  being the higher-resolution scans and printouts used.
Call me skeptical. We knew the minute Apple announced this someone would be rushing out there to 'hack' it and the first claim of hacking would be plastered all over the news. Until I see something from start to finish, unedited and then recreated by someone else its much ado about nothing.
post #48 of 319
The steps to do this requires that the thief go into a lot of trouble. I am sure those guys had fun making the perfect little prints to hack. In the real world, it wont be that easy to find a perfect print left by the user. In fact most people will fail to do all the necessary steps to end up with an unlock phone.

If this is a concern to you, use the back of you're finger, you wont left it on objets...
Edited by herbapou - 9/22/13 at 4:24pm
post #49 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taniwha View Post

That seems to be the interesting aspect. Seems the Apple implementation is not significantly more resistant to hacking than any of the previous implementations. Still useful as a convenience, but hardly an innovative breakthrough.
On really? Seems to me there's a lot of rush to judgement based on one YouTube video.
post #50 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secular Investor View Post

Hmmm,

This seems to be fake.

Apple have already explained that the Touch ID cannot be fooled by a 2-D image because the sub-epidermal image it creates is 3-D not 2-D.

Yet these Germans are claiming that a 2-D image on a thin transparent film fooled the Touch ID sensor

Also Apple say the Touch ID sensor cannot be fooled by a dead fingerprint because it will only read the sub-epidermal layers of a live finger.

SO HOW DID THEY FAKE IT?

It looks very simple.

Notice how the same finger used teach Touch ID the fingerprint was then used to pick up a thin transparent film and put it on the sensor WITH THE LIVE FINGER on top of the thin transparent layer..

It seems then that the Touch ID sensor, which uses capacitors and RF to see through the dead skin of a fingerprint to read the sub-epidermal layers to create the 3-D image, then looked THROUGH the thin transparent film at the SAME LIVE FINGERPRINT used to teach Touch ID the fingerprint pattern.

In other words it was not reading the transparent film at all, but the real fingerprint touching the transparent film

Let's see if I'm right. If I am how many millions of dollars do I get....LOL

Any comments

 

I've looked at the video again and noticed that they appeared to have changed finger i.e. they claim to have taught Touch ID the index fingerprint and then used the second finger to pick up the transparent film and plce it on the sensor with the second finger pressing down on  the Touch ID sensors.

 
But how do we know that they did not also teach the sensor the fingerprint on the second finger off camera?
 
Also why do they not show the iPhone 5S actuality responding and unlocking?
post #51 of 319

Gather 'round children, gather 'round.

 

Watch me debunk this.

 

Let me first start out by bringing out the fact that this sensor DOES scan the sub epidermal layers of your skin(which means it scans multiple layers of your skin to ensure it's yours).

 

Keep that fact in mind..

Now, when watching the video, you can see the person obviously successfully registering his finger print(his index finger), and it works quite well and very fast.

Then look at the finger print he copied. Notice how he used the same print, from the same finger, on the same person? Interesting.. Let's see where this is going..

 

Now, the sensor works by detecting your finger touching the steel band, so it's capacitive. When he puts the paper on the sensor, it clearly does nothing, but when he puts the SAME finger that he used for the print.. It magically unlocks. Why?

 

The sensor is reading the print through multiple layers, it is merely treating the paper as another layer of skin, therefore, it unlocks.

 

 

Until I see this German folk do the same thing, with a different print copied, and use another different person who is using a different finger to "fake" this, I call BS.

 

I'm not as easily conned by them, and just for a side note, it seems all they're doing is scamming the people who are offering bounties for this. Being a computer club full of guys, imagine what they would buy $16k worth of..

 

Debunked, and I'll be using the sensor because so far, it has not been hacked/faked.

post #52 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Chaos Computer Club has been around for years and reportedly has a great rep in the security community. I doubt what they did was faked but anything is possible. With that said the rules for the bounty are pretty strict and CCC might not meet all of them. It takes a bit of time to do the requested video but I'd imagine there should be something more to go on within hours.

 

There's a lot of money to be made from discrediting the Touch ID system..

 
Do you really think Apple would have tried and tested the simple method these Cahaos Computer Hackers claim to have used. Its a really obvious way to try to hacking in.
 
Also the video does not even show that they were actually successful....LOL
 
Still it meets the requirements of their paymasters - Look how this story has already attracted so many Apple denigrators. It is likely to run like wildfire  for several days in the media - just like the false story that Samsung earned more from mobile than Apple
post #53 of 319
It seems this was a very controlled experiment with the sole purpose of getting headlines. They never actually got to the secure enclave that stores the hash so you can't really call this a hack can you?
post #54 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 

I think TouchID requires a complete fingerprint.  With an incomplete fingerprint the phone can not be unlocked. 

 

Not true.

post #55 of 319

The denial around here is so thick you could carve it.

post #56 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secular Investor View Post

There's a lot of money to be made from discrediting the Touch ID system..

$6K is hardly a lot of money. In case you missed it they found out yesterday that the guy offering the $10K was probably lying and today they pretty much proved it was just publicity. He had no intention of parting with several thousand, saying he's not that liquid.
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post #57 of 319

I don't quite buy this claim either.  It would be very difficult to replicate the 3D fingerprint from a cooperating person, certainly not from a 2D picture from a glass.  However, even if it did happen, the sensor can be refined to be more strict to beat the hack.

 

Time will tell.

post #58 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceek74 View Post

I'm pretty sure I don't recall Apple ever saying it was uncrackable. But it sure does beat havin to enter a PIN or password away too often.

 

That is likely part of the reason why Apple wants you to also have a passcode and why they have the whole 48 hours etc. In the time it takes you to actually get the finger ready that timer may have triggered and then the finger is pointless if you don't have the passcode

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #59 of 319

How the **** is this news?

 

"While the process is somewhat complex, the thinking behind it is straightforward. In this case, a high-resolution 2400 dpi photo of a user's fingerprint was harvested from a glass surface using graphite dust or cyanoacrylate (the main ingredient in Super Glue) and a camera. The resulting image was cleaned up and inverted with photo editing software, then laser printed at 1200 dpi onto a transparent sheet. 

To create the fake fingerprint, pink latex milk or white wood glue is laid over the printout and allowed to set. Once cured, the dummy can be peeled off the transparency, breathed on to produce a thin layer of moisture, and applied to a finger. This will grant access to a Touch ID protected device, CCC claims. "

 

Yeah, because some random dude who swipes your phone has a good probability of doing all this shit, right? Of course touch ID is not 100% secure in 100% of situations. But form the standpoint of balancing convenience with security, its a shitload better than NOT having it. 

post #60 of 319

Uh.. How exactly is a finger print unlock the best?

 

I can trace the exact pattern from any android phone/tablet because of human oil, and I have an Android phone which I've used the pattern unlock before.. Get off your high horse, it's a delusion.

post #61 of 319

We'll have to wait and see if this is independently replicated.

post #62 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
 

Sorry, best and easiest way is the pattern unlock that android uses. Apple should have put more money towards a better user experience, bigger and better screen, and better hardware overall. The fingerprint lock is useless in winter. What a hassle to keep taking off gloves to unlock my phone. I like what Nokia and Samsung did with the touchscreens that work with gloves. Get on it Apple. Stop these stupid gimmicks.

 

There's so many falsities in your moronic, mindless troll post, that one does not know where to start. 

"Best and easiest"? Really? Easier than leaving my finger on the home button for a fraction of a second after clicking it? How the **** does that NOT improve user experience? Do you even know what that word means? Touch ID will be used hundreds of times a day by hundreds of millions of people. That does not qualify as a "gimmick". 
Better quality screen? Scientific tests have shown that the iPhone 5/5s screen is literally the best in the industry, by a dozen or so metrics. Larger? Thats simply your personal preference. 
 
The only gimmick is your post, which is asinine on so many levels. I have a Nexus 4. No, the pattern unlock is not the be-all-and-end-all of security. After getting used to touch ID, it seems like an obsolete, stone-age hassle. 
post #63 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taniwha View Post

That seems to be the interesting aspect. Seems the Apple implementation is not significantly more resistant to hacking than any of the previous implementations. Still useful as a convenience, but hardly an innovative breakthrough.
On really? Seems to me there's a lot of rush to judgement based on one YouTube video.

Believe what you want. You might want to remember that precisely this procedure was published in 2004 by the CCC and used effectively to demonstrate the absurd claim of the then German Interior Minister (Wolfgang Schäuble) that fingerprints were a secure means of idenification and authentication. They made Schäuble look like a complete idiot. For a while you could even buy Coffee Mugs with his "authentic fingerprint". So it's really trivial to fake fingerprints by this method which doesn't require any technology that's not available in millions of households round the world.

post #64 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by tort View Post
 

Gather 'round children, gather 'round.

 

Watch me debunk this.

 

Let me first start out by bringing out the fact that this sensor DOES scan the sub epidermal layers of your skin(which means it scans multiple layers of your skin to ensure it's yours).

 

Keep that fact in mind..

Now, when watching the video, you can see the person obviously successfully registering his finger print(his index finger), and it works quite well and very fast.

Then look at the finger print he copied. Notice how he used the same print, from the same finger, on the same person? Interesting.. Let's see where this is going..

 

Now, the sensor works by detecting your finger touching the steel band, so it's capacitive. When he puts the paper on the sensor, it clearly does nothing, but when he puts the SAME finger that he used for the print.. It magically unlocks. Why?

 

The sensor is reading the print through multiple layers, it is merely treating the paper as another layer of skin, therefore, it unlocks.

 

 

Until I see this German folk do the same thing, with a different print copied, and use another different person who is using a different finger to "fake" this, I call BS.

 

I'm not as easily conned by them, and just for a side note, it seems all they're doing is scamming the people who are offering bounties for this. Being a computer club full of guys, imagine what they would buy $16k worth of..

 

Debunked, and I'll be using the sensor because so far, it has not been hacked/faked.

 

I posted a few minutes ago the same solution as you about  the way the Germans probably faked it....Great minds think alike .....LOL

 
However, on looking again at the video, I saw that they used the index finger to teach the Touch ID, but then used the second finger to lift the transparent film they claim to have the fingerprint image  and press it of the sensor.
 
However there was nothing to stop them previously have taught Touch ID off camera to recognise the fingerprint of the second finger.
 
You say "Until I see this German folk do the same thing, with a different print copied, and use another different person who is using a different finger to "fake" this, I call BS."

 

Even if they use a different person it still does not prove they have really defeated Touch ID - because they could have taught Touch ID the fingerprint of the other person before, off camera.

 

Don't forget Touch ID can learn to recognise 5 different fingerprints 

 

The other key thing is that Touch ID cannot be fooled by a 2-D image - which is what they are basically using on that transparent film.

 

Also their video does not even show that they were successful in fooling Touch ID, becuase the video mysteriously stopped just before showing that they were successful - HOW CONVENIENT  ....LOL 

post #65 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Anyone with a level head probably realized the TouchID system would be defeated in quick order. That said, it still may still prove to be an effective deterrent for crimes of opportunity (which I'd imagine most phone thefts are). Only time will tell.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason98 View Post

And here we go, FingerGate begins 1wink.gif

But seriously what's up with the SUBepidermal reading claims if this can be hacked with simple visual pattern scan?


Yes.  Whatever the "misleading-ness" factor of the video, what about that (along with the claim that it had to be "a living finger")?  Anyone have a learned reaction?

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post #66 of 319
All locks can be "beaten." The only real value of any lock is to keep out honest people who might see an inroad to do something not so honest.

If someone is trying to simply get into a phone and there are five phones on a table, they're NOT going to go after one which requires you to
1) Leave your fingerprints on a piece of glass somewhere
2) Know that they are YOUR fingerprints and this is your phone
3) Use advanced techniques to copy the fingerprint and hope it has enough resolution to work
4) Have the knowledge of computer application such that they can take the image, scan it, and invert it without adding any errors (noise) and keeping a high level of resolution
5) Print it onto a transparent sheet without adding noise and keeping the same level of resolution
6) Know how to use just enough latex or white glue to cover the image without distortion or adding noise
7) Peal it carefully away from the transparency, again, without distorting it
8) Know exactly how much moisture to add to it to make it reactive to the device

So, really? Do you really think some crook is going to go to all that trouble to find out what's on your phone? If they're going to do all that work they may as well break into your office or home and get it off of your computer.

No lock is 100% safe. The Mac is not impervious to malware. Right now, your chance of getting malware on the Mac when compared to Windows machines is approximately one million to five. So if I saw five phones on a table%u2014three 5s iPhones, a Samsung running Android or a Nokia running Windows%u2014and I wanted to get into them, I'd go with the Samsung or Nokia. Why should I make my work difficult?
post #67 of 319
Stupid Apple haters. Who cares?
post #68 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983 View Post
 
...... I'm not going to shut up when they make the occasional mistake.

What 'mistake'? Nothing has been shown yet.

 

Calm down.

post #69 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


$6K is hardly a lot of money. In case you missed it they found out yesterday that the guy offering the $10K was probably lying and today they pretty much proved it was just publicity. He had no intention of parting with several thousand, saying he's not that liquid.

 

Actually they were offering $12k plus booze, plus other goodies.

 

But that's chicken feed 

 

However, you can be sure that Samsung would be happy to pay many times that to discredit the iPhone 5S, which has made their Galaxy 4S into a slow, lumbering dynasour....LOL

post #70 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

The guys offering the reward put up a notice about CCC on their site. I hope they don't accept an edited video - it needs to be a complete video of the entire process in real time. This is important as it shows just what's involved.

You can keep up with the status here from one of the two researchers who set up the challenge.
https://twitter.com/nickdepetrillo

Just let us know when it's been confirmed.

post #71 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
 

 

Oh really? So if you see a pattern left behind from oil, do you know where the patter started and what the order of the patter was? Didn't think so. You would know this if you actually used a pattern lock. And all it takes is an easy wipe to get rid of the oil pattern mark. Finger prints? Yeah go ahead and burn them off. lol. 

Oh and what's your response to my point of having to constantly take gloves on and off just to unlock your phone? Everyone that went on an on about how much time you save with this lock, doesn't want to address the glove issue. Hmmm.....

Denial is a helluva drug.

 

Yes, actually I HAVE successfully unlocked my friend's phones with looking at the oil pattern. It doesn't take an idiot. An easy swipe to get rid of it? Please. My GNote keeps those oil marks on there even if I wipe it... So that point falls.

 
Yes, good, you actually have a point about the gloves, yet everything else is mere stupidity. There's only two possible combos to figure out where the pattern started and ended. Just look merely at the end points of the line dude, it isn't hard at all, why do you think my friends want to keep their phones away from me? Have fun with that.
 
Oh, and might I mention in my experience and other's experience that it only works 1/2 the time, since you try to do it as fast as possible, and then end up screwing up the pattern since you missed a dot? Yeah, totally convenient. /s
post #72 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post
 

Sorry, best and easiest way is the pattern unlock that android uses. Apple should have put more money towards a better user experience, bigger and better screen, and better hardware overall. The fingerprint lock is useless in winter. What a hassle to keep taking off gloves to unlock my phone. I like what Nokia and Samsung did with the touchscreens that work with gloves. Get on it Apple. Stop these stupid gimmicks.

Groan...

post #73 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

Anyone with a level head probably realized the TouchID system would be defeated in quick order. That said, it still may still prove to be an effective deterrent for crimes of opportunity (which I'd imagine most phone thefts are). Only time will tell.
It is better than nothing - something a lot of people use to secure their phone (I'm agreeing with your latter statement)
post #74 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by tort View Post
 

 

My GNote keeps those oil marks on there even if I wipe it...

 

It sounds like you may have a defective device.  You should be able to wipe your screen clean.

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post #75 of 319
Another reason I think the media is running with this story is because touch id actually works. They were all hoping to be able to write stories about how it doesn't work. But so far there haven't been any reviews or antidotes that it isn't working for people. Basically all the reviews said it was pretty easy to set up and once enabled worked every time. Of course that's not what the media wanted to hear. So they find out that someone has supposedly "hacked" it and they run with the story,
post #76 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don108 View Post

All locks can be "beaten." The only real value of any lock is to keep out honest people who might see an inroad to do something not so honest.

If someone is trying to simply get into a phone and there are five phones on a table, they're NOT going to go after one which requires you to
1) Leave your fingerprints on a piece of glass somewhere
2) Know that they are YOUR fingerprints and this is your phone
3) Use advanced techniques to copy the fingerprint and hope it has enough resolution to work
4) Have the knowledge of computer application such that they can take the image, scan it, and invert it without adding any errors (noise) and keeping a high level of resolution
5) Print it onto a transparent sheet without adding noise and keeping the same level of resolution
6) Know how to use just enough latex or white glue to cover the image without distortion or adding noise
7) Peal it carefully away from the transparency, again, without distorting it
8) Know exactly how much moisture to add to it to make it reactive to the device

So, really? Do you really think some crook is going to go to all that trouble to find out what's on your phone? If they're going to do all that work they may as well break into your office or home and get it off of your computer.

No lock is 100% safe. The Mac is not impervious to malware. Right now, your chance of getting malware on the Mac when compared to Windows machines is approximately one million to five. So if I saw five phones on a table%u2014three 5s iPhones, a Samsung running Android or a Nokia running Windows%u2014and I wanted to get into them, I'd go with the Samsung or Nokia. Why should I make my work difficult?

 Yes you are so right.

 

Even if for sake of argument this method to hack into the iOPhone 5S actually worked (and there are very good reasons to suspect it doesn't) you have rightly pointed out just how difficult and time consuming it would be.

 

Not worth the effort when you consider that most phones are not protected at all by passwords/PINs because it is such a time consuming hassle. Ease and speed of Touch ID means that users are much more likely to safeguard their iPhone than with other methods. 

 

The swipe method used by some Android is also incredibly insecure, because there are so few swipe gestures and they are very easy for somebody to see you using them.

 

However, this German method to fool Touch ID seems highly improbable and as explained in my earlier comments, careful observation of the video shows how the method is probably totally fake.

 

Also , the video does not even show the Germans actually successfully gaining access....LOL  


Edited by Secular Investor - 9/22/13 at 4:47pm
post #77 of 319

It's not defective, in fact, it's a replacement device! How convenient!

;-)

post #78 of 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod View Post

Again, what about the gloves in the winter time? Yeah, didn't think you cared to address that issue. Hmm.....
Dude I live in Minnesota and have not had any issues with my iPhone. I actually own gloves that work with the iPhone and unless its really cold and I'm outside there aren't that many situations where I need to use my phone with gloves on.
post #79 of 319
Fake finger hack looks pretty fake.
post #80 of 319
Thank you hackers of the world, it is better to know the system's weakness now then later. I will use this information to adjust how I use this technology. For example I will only train only one finger, the thief will have to lift and model all 10 fingers to ensure success.

Security can also be increased by requiring multiple scan on the individual finger to unlock. The system is configured for ease of operation. During training, the touch sensor is mapping out the entire print but only require a small area to unlock. By requiring a second scan of an area perhaps on the tip of your finger, not normally left behind, will make the system more secure but harder to use.
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