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Apple announces sales of 9 million iPhone 5s & 5c units in first 3 days - Page 6

post #201 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


Give it up. FUD changes nothing. Nine million people still bought iPhones this weekend. Wordplay doesn't change that.

 

What word play?   I am fighting against the word play that others are using trying to claim that the phones ordered, but not shipping until October, were counted in this 9 million.  I think we're on the same side.

post #202 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

I read it as “Apple is lying about sales because they’re counting my order and it hasn’t been charged yet.”

 

You might want to learn to read then.   No where did I claim Apple is lying (either plus or minus).  I was replying to someone who was claiming that the 9 million includes all the orders that won't be fulfilled until October or whenever, which I do not believe to be the case, since they claim 9 million were sold and an easily cancelable order with no signed sales contract and no money changing hands is not a sale.  My specific example of my order was meant to show what I was talking about.  Nothing more, nothing less.

post #203 of 219
Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

the 9 million includes all the orders that wont be fulfilled until October or whenever, which I do not believe to be the case, since they claim 9 million were sold and an easily cancelable order with no signed sales contract and no money changing hands is not a sale.

 

But DO those count? I mean, could Apple be counting them?

 

If the answer’s “not if they don’t want to get slapped with a fine”, I’m a moron.

Originally Posted by helia

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post #204 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

But DO those count? I mean, could Apple be counting them?

 

If the answer’s “not if they don’t want to get slapped with a fine”, I’m a moron.

 

I don't think Apple is counting those.  They'd be in trouble for making misleading statements if they were.  Especially since their quarter closes end of September and all those units would have to be missing from their quarter end pronouncements.

 
I think the 9 Million are only those that were sold directly by Apple or by their reseller partners (carriers, Wal-Marts and Targets, etc) through their retail stores, or through their website, for stock that was on hand and immediately assigned to fulfillment of the order.  If you ordered online and it said "ships in 1-3 business days" and they charged your card and you cannot cancel it as it is preparing to ship, then it would count.  If you ordered online and it says ships in like 7-10 days, or "ships in October" or whatever, and it is in processing state, and you can cancel, and no money has changed hands, and there is not a specific piece of inventory allocated to your order, it doesn't count.
post #205 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

But DO those count? I mean, could Apple be counting them?

If the answer’s “not if they don’t want to get slapped with a fine”, I’m a moron.

No, as you've been told repeatedly, pre-orders do not count as sales.
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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #206 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

My statement was not wrong.  We are talking about Apple and that was the context.   Since we are in a thread about Apple, I don't have to qualify my statement.  It is already qualified by the context of the thread.   Apple does not sell on deferred plans so that is irrelevant.
 
And furthermore, the SEC looks at false or misleading statements made in public, which was my point.  It is not looking at GAAP revenue recognition when a company claims to have sold X number of units.  It is looking at actual sales when someone claims to have sold X units.
 
And I don't even think that Apple is talking about phones shipped to the channel or resellers.  I think it gathers sales data from their reseller partners before it makes announcements.  See my statement above about false or misleading statements.  Companies usually use words like "shipped X units" when they are talking about numbers being shipped to resellers or into a sales channel.
 
But yes, you are always right.  Sorry to offend your sensibilities.

I'm not always right, but I'm right in this case.

You made a blanket statement about SEC rules - which was wrong.

Then, you modified your statement and said that you were really only talking about Apple - even though your original statement was clearly a blanket statement. But even with respect to Apple, your statement is probably wrong.

In all likelihood, Apple sells ton of phones to Walmart. Sale gets counted immediately as a sale. Apple does not receive payment for weeks.
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post #207 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm not always right, but I'm right in this case.

You made a blanket statement about SEC rules - which was wrong.

Then, you modified your statement and said that you were really only talking about Apple - even though your original statement was clearly a blanket statement. But even with respect to Apple, your statement is probably wrong.

In all likelihood, Apple sells ton of phones to Walmart. Sale gets counted immediately as a sale. Apple does not receive payment for weeks.

They bill Walmart which counts as a sale. They may not rec pmt but they create the invoice. (Accounting-wise, the money is accrued). Since there is no invoicing on individual buyers, the item counts as sold when shipped and the customer is charged when shipped.
post #208 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


I'm not always right, but I'm right in this case.

You made a blanket statement about SEC rules - which was wrong.

Then, you modified your statement and said that you were really only talking about Apple - even though your original statement was clearly a blanket statement. But even with respect to Apple, your statement is probably wrong.

In all likelihood, Apple sells ton of phones to Walmart. Sale gets counted immediately as a sale. Apple does not receive payment for weeks.

 

But the sales they count in their pronouncement of 9 million only count those that Walmart sold to an end user, I would bet.  I don't know that, but I have read similar thoughts.  I don't think Apple includes channel sales when it makes these sorts of "weekend sales" pronouncements.  Speculation on my part.  (I don't make the same speculation for quarter end sales quotes).

 
And my "blanket statement" was in the context of the thread, ie Apple.   No where did I claim it was blanket for all cases.  It would take much more space to  make a blanket statement that would count across all spheres that the SEC regulates.  You can make counter claims all you want, but I am the one that made the statement, which I admit was not precise, and I was thinking only of the Apple case when I made it.
 
 

---

 

More food for thought on what is included in the 9 million.    Apple raised their guidance for this quarter.  The quarter ends in about a week.  They would not count phones and increase their guidance for phones that they won't be able to recognize revenue from until after the quarter ends.

post #209 of 219
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post
as youve been told repeatedly

 

I’d remember that. Nice try. These aren’t pre-orders, by the way.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #210 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


They bill Walmart which counts as a sale. They may not rec pmt but they create the invoice. (Accounting-wise, the money is accrued). Since there is no invoicing on individual buyers, the item counts as sold when shipped and the customer is charged when shipped.

 

Accounting wise, you are right.  But I am speculating that for PR pronouncements, the sale to Walmart is not counted, but is counted when Walmart sells to the end user.  Apple know about that most likely through reports from Walmart, and also because the phone gets activated with Apple's servers (and may even get scanned and reported to Apple by the sales register, which happens with iTunes cards, for example).  Apple knows pretty well when you've purchased something for warranty purposes.

post #211 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

I’d remember that. Nice try. These aren’t pre-orders, by the way.

 

They basically are pre-orders.  You are pre-ordering for when inventory becomes available again for shipment.  Procedurally and accounting wise it is the same difference.  If you order an iPhone and there is not an inventory item assigned to your order, then it is basically a "pre order." (And doesn't count in sales figures).  At that time that an inventory item becomes available and is assigned to your order, it becomes a sale.

post #212 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

Accounting wise, you are right.  But I am speculating that for PR pronouncements, the sale to Walmart is not counted, but is counted when Walmart sells to the end user.  Apple know about that most likely through reports from Walmart, and also because the phone gets activated with Apple's servers (and may even get scanned and reported to Apple by the sales register, which happens with iTunes cards, for example).  Apple knows pretty well when you've purchased something for warranty purposes.

That's right. Apple usually know how much is sold to end users because they do get inventory reports from the third parties. As for numbers, Apple cannot overstate data as it's a public company.
post #213 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

Accounting wise, you are right.  But I am speculating that for PR pronouncements, the sale to Walmart is not counted, but is counted when Walmart sells to the end user.  Apple know about that most likely through reports from Walmart, and also because the phone gets activated with Apple's servers (and may even get scanned and reported to Apple by the sales register, which happens with iTunes cards, for example).  Apple knows pretty well when you've purchased something for warranty purposes.

So you're trying to spin your story again? Wouldn't it be easier to simply get it right the first time? Or to admit that you're wrong when you don't get it right?

Why don't you give us the link to exactly how Apple counts them to support your claims?
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post #214 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


So you're trying to spin your story again? Wouldn't it be easier to simply get it right the first time? Or to admit that you're wrong when you don't get it right?

Why don't you give us the link to exactly how Apple counts them to support your claims?

 

Huh?  My comment is a further speculative comment, not a follow on to my earlier comment.   No spinning needed.

 
There is nothing to admit, because I did not get it wrong the first time.  You misinterpreted my comment, and I admit it was vague, because you took it out of context.  I clarified for you but you can't let it go.

 

I am not aware of exactly how apple counts sales and I don't think Apple has explicitly posted.   I am using deductive reasoning based on accounting principles, and on the fact that Apple is a public company and cannot afford to make misleading statements due to SEC regulations, and that Apple does not sell iPhones to the public on anything other than pay at time of receipt in the US.

post #215 of 219
Guys just go check the web usage statistic in couple weeks time. Best indication of how many new iPhone in the wild. All these people try to make Apple 9 million SALES is a lie, spin , marketing gimmick ... Seriously. If that makes you feel better, carry on living with that attitude.

No one ask you to admire Apple or to sing in the same tune. You don't like the products? don't buy it. Nobody cares if you prefer whatever you are using.

One of the most annoying thing about non-Apple customers is - they keep trying to tell me what they are using is better. I normally reply, really? good for you, and back away slowly don't make eye contacts ....
post #216 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Give it up. FUD changes nothing. Nine million people still bought iPhones this weekend. Wordplay doesn't change that.

Embarrassing isn't it that he was making the point that the 9m, not including pre-orders, was therefore an underestimate. your fanaticism to defend Apple at any cost is matched by an inability to understand simple stuff.

Apple is clear on when it "recognises revenue". It does so on shipments.

http://www.asymco.com/2012/05/28/shipped-and-sold-a-brief-introduction/
Edited by asdasd - 9/24/13 at 12:55pm
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post #217 of 219
Apple could have had better sales if they didn't deliberately constrain the stock of gold iPhone 5S and have more 5S stock in general.

In my country, Singapore, the phones were out of stock of gold and silver 5S after the first day of launch.
post #218 of 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiepaul View Post
 

 

Really?  I don't believe you.  By hitting the purchase button, you and Apple have entered into a contract of sale.  The charging of the credit card is relatively meaningless.  Apple would almost certainly count an approved and collected contract of sale as a sale.  I know I would.  If you have actual evidence that suggests otherwise, by all means enlighten us.  But of course none of us do.  Only those inside certain sections of Apple's upper echelons would have that kind of information.

 

You are wrong! Check out the IRS accounting laws. What you think and the actual law are two very different things.

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post #219 of 219
Originally Posted by just1ed@gmail.com View Post
Apple could have had better sales if they didn't deliberately constrain the stock of gold iPhone 5S and have more 5S stock in general.

 

Yeah, except they didn’t, thanks.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
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