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What's left for the Macintosh in a Post-PC iOS World? - Page 7

post #241 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by z3r0 View Post


Wrong can have a lot of different meanings. Not meeting/delivering customer expectations, buggy releases, lacking certain features, taking the wrong direction, heading in a certain direction at the wrong time etc...

 

That's all relative.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #242 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post
 

Would that be four i7 minis for about the same cost as an entry quad core Mac Pro?

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

 

That is something I am considering... Not four, but at least add another mini so that I have an actual farm.

 

However, the mini gets hot, fast.  The one I have now whirs like heck every job, and that is in a 20°C room.  I am considering a fan that would fit two minis...

 

Computers and apps are supposed to be smart... why can't the render apps take a break from time to time (built in) to allow the machine to cool, or operate at less than 100% so as not to burn the house down?

 

The Pro, on the other hand, is built to dissipate heat and has the fan built in.  But, for some tasks that don't use multi-cores, the Pro is slower than a mini (or iMac).  I'd love to have both...

 

Sorry if I'm not coherent... 4:00am and a sleepless night.


Edited by Bergermeister - 10/6/13 at 12:07pm

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #243 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

“Compromise” in what way, just hardware?

 

Yeah, but not meaning there's a problem with the hardware per se, just that buyers will accept configurations that are not necessarily to their liking because that's the compromise they have to make to use OS X. For example, I'd like my portable machine to have USB3 and a 17" (or larger) screen. That's not a configuration Apple offers though, so I have to compromise and live without one or the other of my preferred hardware features.

 

Windows users don't have that problem. They can change vendors. Sony doesn't make a machine with that combination of features? No problem, Asus does. That's why you don't see those companies looking pro users right in the eyes and telling us they know better than we do what's best for our business.


Edited by v5v - 10/6/13 at 11:46pm
post #244 of 253
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

Yeah, but not meaning there's a problem with the hardware per se, just that buyers will accept configurations that are not necessarily to their liking because that's the compromise they have to make to use OS X. For example, I'd like my portable machine to have USB3 and a 17" (or larger) screen. That's not a configuration Apple offers though, so I have to compromise and live without one or the other of my preferred hardware features.

 

Oh, right, okay. I’d like the Mac Mini, for example, to have a desktop CPU. I get you now. Apple certainly has a rationale for why they limit configurations, but it’s no less valid a statement for that.

Originally Posted by asdasd

This is Appleinsider. It's all there for you but we can't do it for you.
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Originally Posted by asdasd

This is Appleinsider. It's all there for you but we can't do it for you.
Reply
post #245 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

Yeah, but not meaning there's a problem with the hardware per se, just that buyers will accept configurations that are not necessarily to their liking because that's the compromise they have to make to use OS X. For example, I'd like my portable machine to have USB3 and a 17" (or larger) screen. That's not a configuration Apple offers though, so I have to compromise and live without one or the other of my preferred hardware features.
This is a real problem when you have a single source. Anybody rational would agree with the idea that you have to make compromises when buying Apple hardware. I did this when I bought my MBP because Apple didn't at the time an still doesn't have a decent desktop machine.
Quote:
Windows users don't have that problem. They can change vendors. Sony doesn't make a machine with that combination of features? No problem, Asus does.
That also brings with it a lot of variability in hardware quality. Not to mention is the issue with the operating system.
Quote:
That's why you don't see those companies looking pro users right in the eyes and telling us they know better than we do what's best for our business.

This is where I have to call bullshit. Apple isn't telling people what is best for their business they are marketing the product that they have to sell. Huge difference there. Apple can't possibly build a machine for every user out there, just as Sony can't nor can Asus. So Apple has only one choice, that is to market what they have as the best solution out there.

This idea that Apple is trying to tell businessmen what is best for their business is complete crap in the sense that any decent salesman will do the same thing. Run a machine shop and the tooling salesman will tell you his cutters are the best thing since sliced bread. Walk into a Ford dealer and they will go on at length trying to convince you that their cars are the best on the road. Talk to a Nikon rep when the local pro shop is having an open house and see how hard he tries to convince you Nikon is the best solution out there. In any case it is up to the buyer to choose the right solution.

As for this new Mac Pro, I still see Apples number one problem is getting the so called pros out there to open their eyes and see the possibilities in this machine. It is such a step forward that many seem to be left behind just not grasping the machine nor where the industry is going. The Mac Pro represents a machine that for the first time is optimized for high performance computing and not some after thought stuffed in an ATX case evolution.
post #246 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I did this when I bought my MBP because Apple didn't at the time an still doesn't have a decent desktop machine.

The only change I think they should make to the iMac is to put the storage in a place that's accessible. In a few years, we'll be able to go SSD-only due to the prices. Apple is at $1000 for 1TB just now but when that's $100-200, HDDs can go completely and I think it's more reliable to have it in beside the RAM slots so that if something happens to the machine and you use it for business, you can very easily remove the SSD, connect it to another work machine or even buy a cheap $500 Mini to keep working and then sell it again or return it when you get your repaired machine back. Even having the RAM soldered is fine so long as the prices are reasonable. 16GB should be $200 maximum and available as an option in every machine.
post #247 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Oh, right, okay. I’d like the Mac Mini, for example, to have a desktop CPU. I get you now. Apple certainly has a rationale for why they limit configurations, but it’s no less valid a statement for that.

I'm sure Apple has a rationale for their line up. That may have even been rational ten years or so ago when the product offerings where first lined up. Today, especially with the extremely over priced Mac Pro the lineup just doesn't make sense. They have effectively abandoned a whole segment of the desktop market.

I'm hoping with the advent of the new Mac Pro Apple addresses the problems it has with the desktop lineup. That is why I'm hoping that the Mini gets revved and yes like you I want a better CPU. However I'm not sure better would be desktop chips with Haswell, as the real trick is to get Haswell with Iris graphics into the Or its replacement. Of course if Intel puts Iris into a desktop chip the we are all set. In a nut shell the mini or its replacement needs to handle more power so that a solution running above 45 watts is not only possible but works well too. This is where the new Mac Pro becomes real interesting, put a single board computer in there and you immediately have a machine that is better than the Mini and not nearly as expensive as the dual GPU Mac Pros. Oh by the way yeah it would have fewer ports, but they could also offer the option of a Mac Pro video card.

This is one of many options they have to deal with the Mini and its rapid sales decline.
post #248 of 253
Well the first problem we have here is that I don't consider the iMac to be a desktop machine! It is more of a monitor with a built in computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The only change I think they should make to the iMac is to put the storage in a place that's accessible.
That would remove one ding against the iMac, however you still have all the other limitations the iMac introduces. The problems can be summed up as follows:
  1. significant serviceability issues.
  2. access to storage is very limited, see above.
  3. the machine comes with a screen that doesn't always fit the needs of the user.
  4. I/O is limited
  5. terrible audio so you end up buying speakers anyways.
Quote:
In a few years, we'll be able to go SSD-only due to the prices. Apple is at $1000 for 1TB just now but when that's $100-200, HDDs can go completely and I think it's more reliable to have it in beside the RAM slots so that if something happens to the machine
Had to break things up here. As to SSDs I'm very pleased to see that Apple has done so well with configuration and pricing for SSDs in the AIRs. At least back at launch time an upgrade to 512 GB wasn't that bad. So I really see the day where cost effective and large enough SSDs is not far off
Quote:
and you use it for business, you can very easily remove the SSD, connect it to another work machine or even buy a cheap $500 Mini to keep working and then sell it again or return it when you get your repaired machine back. Even having the RAM soldered is fine so long as the prices are reasonable. 16GB should be $200 maximum and available as an option in every machine.
Actually any more 16GB is basically a midrange upgrade, in some machines it should be a base configuration. The Mac Pro is the perfect example of a machine that should ship with a 16GB base configuration with 32 GB a close second. Frankly $200 is too much for 16GB these days.

Like you I see soldered in RAM as far less of a problem than having your storage soldered in. If I had a choice in the IMac I'd want the flash drive accessible.
post #249 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


Actually any more 16GB is basically a midrange upgrade, in some machines it should be a base configuration. The Mac Pro is the perfect example of a machine that should ship with a 16GB base configuration with 32 GB a close second. Frankly $200 is too much for 16GB these days.

Like you I see soldered in RAM as far less of a problem than having your storage soldered in. If I had a choice in the IMac I'd want the flash drive accessible.

 

I would agree that it's midrange. I find less to be near intolerable for some tasks. The difference is extremely noticeable if you have to deal with memory hungry applications or VMs. I mention VMs because I recently wanted to test Fedora for a few things. The mini still uses a 2 sodimm configuration. It will be at least DDR4 before you see any 32GB options there. The imacs will support up to 32GB. The newest mac pros would be able to take as much as 64GB, as appropriate 16GB dimms are available in that form factor. They're somewhat expensive, but it should be cheap enough for most users who require it by next year. I define cheap enough as being the point where something is ordered automatically if it provides a moderate or greater end user benefit, even if it's not a hard requirement. You will find memory prices can be somewhat volatile. Even from brands with decent service, 16GB kits dropped under $80 for a while prior to shooting back over $100. Apple always marks these things up higher. Other oems do the same. Exorbitant markups are just less tolerable if no after-market options exist due to soldering as opposed to socketed memory. I would still argue that they don't do it to prevent ram upgrades. It's more likely done that way to conserve machine height/thickness due to upgradeable ram being deemed a low priority by comparison.

post #250 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

It is an incredible bit of ignorance to believe Apple can make a computer that is custom tailored to each and every professional out there. You certainly have a problem if you believe Apple or any manufacture can do so.

 

Oh gee, duh, you think so? Yes, obviously we ALL think Apple should be building EXACTLY what each of us want individually. There is obviously NO middle ground between that and hardware snobbery. You are the only one in the world who understands this and the rest of us are complete idiots.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

You make an assumption that you know what is good for your business

 

Oh, THAT'S where I'm screwing up. You're right. It makes MUCH more sense for me to leave decisions that affect the welfare of my family to a disinterested third party with absolutely no knowledge of my market, clients or operations. Obviously Apple knows better than do I what will satisfy the needs of my clients and my operation.

 


Edited by v5v - 10/8/13 at 12:34pm
post #251 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

I think I finally get how you manage to be so utterly ignorant of why people who use computers to generate income may prefer vendors other than Apple:
There is nothing wrong with choosing vendors other than Apple. Hell even Apple chooses vendors other than Apple. What is a problem is your whining about Apple not making the computer you think you want.

As to computer preferences I still have a Linux system or two around and at work there are few Macs even available. I don't have a problem with different hardware and software systems, what I have an issue with is the hostility towards Apple because the new Mac Pro somehow doesn't measure up to what you think it should be.
Quote:
you've never had to make a business decision that affects your earnings nor have you ever been responsible for a decision that influences the viability of a venture.
I may not have final sign off but I've been involved in a few the Things both successful and grossly stupid. You assume that management decisions are always rational, well thought out with an understanding of the corporations needs. That isn't always the case and have been involved in a few decisions that I knew would be a failure right from the start. In one case the management team simply didn't understand the capability of the machine they where about to modify and dismissed any comments that they considered an attempt to derail their project. I've seen $70 million spent on a production line and then 3 more built all to be scrapped before a single product was sold off the line.

I could go on and on but often bad management decision are made and frankly often by people with an attitude similar to yours. Yon seem to think that because you run your own business everything you do is right and in the best interest of your business. Maybe it has been up until now. However I've seen enough of business that I know everybody makes mistakes. It doesn't really matter how good you are as a manager either, sometimes best intentions hit the brick wall of reality.
Quote:
A typical person is capable of enough empathy to at least understand the concepts just by being an employee. It would also explain why you are so utterly dismissive of others and so arrogant about your own views. Which is probably what led you to share the following gem:
Arrogant? Have you actually sat down and read what you have posted in this thread? Your attitude is beyond belief and your hostility towards Apple over the new Mac Pro unexplainable. So naturally I'm honing to dismiss what you are saying as it has about as much meaning as the guy downtown that stands on his little box preaching from the bible.

Think about I'm not the one ranting about what is best for my business and wondering why Apple doesn't make the machine I think I need. Maybe your intention isn't to come off that way but friend it sounds like it to us.
Quote:

Oh gee, duh, you think so? Yes, obviously we ALL think Apple should be building EXACTLY what each of us want individually.
That is the way you are presenting yourself.
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There is obviously NO middle ground between that and hardware snobbery. You are the only one in the world who understands this and the rest of us are complete idiots.
Well I'm not the one arguing that Apple should make something they have never made! It makes about as much sense as demanding that Ford make space shuttles so you can take yourself a trip to zero gravity. Could Ford do it? Almost certainly, but does it make sense for them to do it today.
Quote:

Oh, THAT'S where I'm screwing up. You're right.
Of course I'm right. Every good businessman that I worked with has valued the opinions of others and often seeks out those opinions. Insight, knowledge and the opinions of others are a wonderful thing for a businessman to work with when making decisions about his business.
Quote:
It makes MUCH more sense for me to leave decisions that affect the welfare of my family to a disinterested third party with absolutely no knowledge of my market, clients or operations.
Tht statement is so silly I don't know how to respond. Look at it this way is it really possible to make good business decision in vacuum free of information? You can't realistically run a business with out the ability to make your own decisions, however those decisions are far easier to make and likely to be rest reckless if you consider the opinion of others, the state of the economy and a bunch of other factors. Little bits of information can make or break a business. You can only know how to run your business in the context of the rest of the world.

It is interesting that you so strongly defend your ability to make decisions for your business and to know what is best for your business but go on at length to totally reject the idea that Apple can do the same. In the case of the Mac Pro I'm pretty sure they have considered deeply the needs of the user community and balanced that against what they know is coming in the semiconductor industry. That apparently disturbs you to no end as you look towards the past to define what you need in the future.
Quote:
Obviously Apple knows better than do I what will satisfy the needs of my clients and my operation.
Well you twisted that around a bit. Look at it this way, Apple knows nothing at all about your business, you personally nor your customers. When it comes to designing a new computer they can't take special interests in your needs if they expect to design a mass market computer. They may be able to look at your industry as a whole and hope to take a good segment of that business, but there is no way they can make everybody happy. Apples goals are most likely focused on a machine that they see as marketable and profitable. That may not make you happy but I really doubt your clients even care. All of this is balanced against what Apple knows about semiconductor technology and what that tube will be containing in the follow on years.

I'm not sure how you perverted the new Mac Pros introduction as telling you anything. All they did is introduce what is going to be their professional platform for the foreseeable future. Really it is nothing personal.

It is interesting that the title of this thread is: "What's left for the Macintosh in a Post-PC iOS World". You and I may know that the need for workstations will never go away. However rationally we can't dismiss that the industry is changing rapidly, perhaps faster than it has since the days of the Apple 2. Due to this I'm expecting changes in the industry including more than a few PC vendors giving up the ghost.

Apples problem is that they need to navigate what could very well be a mine field for many companies and come out ahead. The new Mac Pro is an attempt to bring fresh ideas to a market that is rather stale and contracting. That doesn't mean it will be successful but it does give Apple a solution for a market that will be vastly different in a few years. Like it or hate it, I suspect that more than a couple of Apples competitors will be keeping a close eye on the machine to see how it does and to plot their own course forward.
post #252 of 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

your hostility towards Apple over the new Mac Pro unexplainable.

 

You don't need to respond because I've learned my lesson with respect to peeking into the bozo bin, I just want you to consider how your zealousness has led you to the conclusion that I am anything but excited about the new Mac Pro. I will probably buy one if I can afford it.

 

You may want to ask yourself how you came to the conclusion that I'm "hostile" towards it. There are many shades of gray between "Apple's attitude towards my business is poor compared to other vendors" and "I hate Apple."

post #253 of 253

Thanks - that makes sense.

 

I'm impressed with how well Apple has done what MS tried for a couple of decades: combined mobile and desktop.

 

I read about MS bringing Office to iMobile, and I'm surprised they didn't sooner. Office was one of the main attractions when Jobs returned to Apple.

 

With iWork, the integration afforded by iCloud is great - even XP happily runs it! Too bad MS didn't maintain their business with Apple to supply this software. I'm interested to see how far Apple will take cloud computing.

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