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Android overtakes Apple's iPad in tablet marketshare, approaches in revenue earned - Page 4

post #121 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrance View Post

I'm waiting for the retina mini myself. I wonder if Apple will ever add a USB port to their iPad line. It would sure open it up to be a lot more useful.

 

Consider holding your breath and stomping your feet. I'm sure glad you trolled on in for that cute "add a USB port" line. For what? I cannot think of anything way the addition of one would help even the smallest amount of people.

post #122 of 204
Hard to put much stock in these numbers. With all the marketshare owned by Google's android, i find it intriquing that Google missed on the top and bottom line when they reported last quarter. They should be blowing the numbers out like Apple used to do. In the US and Canda, it has been documented quarter after quater that the ipad accounts for 80-85% of web traffic on tablets. There's no way you can have an other category account for 30% of anything and have your work taken seriously.
post #123 of 204

Actually, to be honest, I'd buy another non-retina Mini if the one I have died. I've used the Nexus 7 and played with the Fonepad and Xperia, but they simply don't have the apps, delivery/presentation, security, update cycles (bar Nexus of course) or accessories. The 2nd Gen 7 is the only one that is as smooth as the Mini, too. It's the day-to-day presentation and design that I look at, and Android with its unregulated approach which provides a mish-mash of design that I personally dislike. Do I want Retina? YES! Do I want disintegrated design languages that conflict? Not at all. Eye of the beholder, right?

post #124 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

If you want to call it 'spec' by all means.
As I said if you want more specs go android as you said the nexus 7 has 12 hour of battery life.
That's my point. People might do just that. But why? To me a no retina mini is Apple settling on "good enough", being more focused on margins than a great product.
post #125 of 204

LOL - 'USB port' MWAHAHAHAHAA ;D))

post #126 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

Volume doesn't work when a product is not selling.

Now you know why Amazon at time lose money and make very little profits.

Btw it is not because they are reinvesting their money. To let stocks sit in the warehouses cost money, a lot of it.
So you think Amazon is not making a profit because Kindle tablets are collecting dust in warehouses somewhere?
post #127 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

That's my point. People might do just that. But why? To me a no retina mini is Apple settling on "good enough", being more focused on margins than a great product.

Are these other "retina" devices using OLED or the tech Apple uses?
post #128 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

Are these other "retina" devices using OLED or the tech Apple uses?

The Nexus uses the same display type as Apple but at a higher res, 7.02-inch 1920x1200 IPS.

From Anandtech's review: "The 7-inch 1920 x 1200 display produces colors that are not only vibrant but, for the first time ever in a Nexus device, accurate as well. Google really worked on color accuracy this time, with a two step calibration process - once at a high level by the panel maker and once again per device during final manufacturing. The result is just awesome"

They even managed to reduce the battery size from the previous year yet increase the battery life while pushing a "retina" display.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7231/the-nexus-7-2013-review

IMO if Asus/Google can find a way then Apple could put a retina display in the iPad mini and not sacrifice battery life in the process and they will when it makes sense in the product line.
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post #129 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dillio View Post

I don't think anyone is saying that Apple is doomed. But this follows the trend in smartphones, where Apple is losing their dominant marketshare. I think it is relevant not to the different Android manufacturers, but to the two platforms as a whole: which platform/ecosystem will be dominant, Apple's or Androids? I'd like to hear your opinion on what consequences are if Android is the dominant platform. Will the developers bring their A game to it? Will they develop for Android first and Apple second? (and Windows third?). 

Apple has never been the dominant smartphone platform yet Apple iPhones is immensely successful by every measure other than a comparison of Apple iOS to a very loose affiliation of OEM vendors who use the same base code but often modify the products and services beyond recognition.
post #130 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

The Nexus uses the same display type as Apple but at a higher res, 7.02-inch 1920x1200 IPS.

From Anandtech's review: "The 7-inch 1920 x 1200 display produces colors that are not only vibrant but, for the first time ever in a Nexus device, accurate as well. Google really worked on color accuracy this time, with a two step calibration process - once at a high level by the panel maker and once again per device during final manufacturing. The result is just awesome"

They even managed to reduce the battery size from the previous year yet increase the battery life while pushing a "retina" display.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7231/the-nexus-7-2013-review

IMO if Asus/Google can find a way then Apple could put a retina display in the iPad mini and not sacrifice battery life in the process and they will when it makes sense in the product line.

If I remember right, these types of LCD displays are still very new for that size, meaning supply constraints are probably very real. The amount needed for Nexus tablets would be quite different than for iPad minis.
post #131 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brakken View Post

LOL - 'USB port' MWAHAHAHAHAA ;D))

So why does the Apple TV have one?
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post #132 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

If I remember right, these types of LCD displays are still very new for that size, meaning supply constraints are probably very real. The amount needed for Nexus tablets would be quite different than for iPad minis.

Perhaps there was a couple years ago, but I think that was because there wasn't a lot of demand for them which also tended to keep the price high. Kind of a Catch-22. I can't find any indication of supply constraints now but perhaps you've seen something recently?
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post #133 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

WRT the price of storage upgrades on the iPad and iPhone: If MS had the same price structure on the Surface—scratch that, they do—that would be gouging. Apple uses such a huge fraction of the world supply of flash memory that they have to discourage upgrades by rationing through price.

If they suddenly reduced the cost of each storage upgrade, or abruptly doubled capacity in their whole line, like everybody keeps urging them to, they would have to essentially corner the market. In addition to being investigated by various governments, and pilloried in the press, the marginal price would soar completely out of sight.

Believe me, they know what they're doing, but laying it out in so many words would be worse than simply being accused of price-gouging. Only when the supply expands to cover the resulting need could they increase the storage/price ratio in their units. Of course, this is a classic chicken-and-egg paradox, since Apple is the 800-pound gorilla in the flash market.

ETA: Plus, I think these estimates of $10 for 16 GB of storage are confusing the cheap crap flash memory that's used in those thumb drives you bought at Staples (and in those $49 Android tablets) with the high-quality (and ruinously expensive) flash memory that's used in iOS devices and computer SSDs.

 

Apple could also do this making 32 GB the base model in the new iPad/iPad mini.  Add $100 to the 64 GB and $200 to 128 GB models.  

post #134 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondm16 View Post

 

Want to elaborate?


The common AppleInsider consensus is that Android devices don't actually exist or sell.  Samsung makes a bunch of them and ships them out to sea, and apparently sinks them in a secret location.  Apple builds the only electronics products that people actually buy.
The shipped vs sold arguments are usually followed up by questioning the validity of the source and concluding they are 'a bunch of idiots' followed by browsing usage and 'mindshare' arguments.  Just trying to condense every thread related to Android sales into one paragraph 1tongue.gif

Um... That's cute, but things are a tad more subtle. Perhaps that's why you don't understand.

All companies report shipments in dollar value terms, but Apple is the **only** company to report volumes and channel inventory in addition. Given those two data points, any idiot can calculate ACTUAL SALES for Apple. And, that data shows that sales are pretty much equal to shipments for Apple.

For the rest, all we have are shipments. If their actual sales were so good, you can bet they'd be reporting volumes and channel data.

In other words, this consulting firm's analysis, like that of the (rest and like your post), is based on FUD -- F'.. Useless Data.
post #135 of 204
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
So why does the Apple TV have one?

 

You know, if you play devil’s advocate enough, eventually he promotes you and there’s nothing you can do to hide your actual position.

Now cut it out. I get called an idiot for WAY less stupid questions. You therefore don’t deserve a free pass.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #136 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


They also keep calling it marketshare, which people think means total shipped units but it's the percentage of sales in a single quarter. The iPad web usage share is listed as still being over 80%:

http://tabtimes.com/resources/the-state-of-the-tablet-market

They aren't distinguishing what screen size they stop at either. The next highest tablet manufacturer is Samsung with just over half Apple's sales and Apple still outsells the next top 5 Android device manufacturers combined:



The mystery category of "other" rears its head again to take the bulk of the rest of the units whoever they happen to be. That has to be split between at least another 12 manufacturers and some of them will run Windows 8. This means as you say that it has taken this long for at least 16 manufacturers' combined units to surpass Apple after 3 years.

This isn't a race between Apple and Android, it's between Apple and Samsung. Android is an irrelevant component here. If Samsung had a different OS, they'd most likely sell the same number of units.

 

As someone who spent a great deal of time in product management, I can tell you that this is one scary chart.  Stock prices are based on future earnings and the MOST IMPORTANT column on this chart is Y/Y Growth.  If you just keep running this chart forward with those growth numbers, Apple will be an insignificant blip in a few years.  

 

If this isn't motivation for Apple to put out the best 7-8" tablet they can, I don't know what is.  The next Mini absolutely has to be the best in the market.

post #137 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You know, if you play devil’s advocate enough, eventually he promotes you and there’s nothing you can do to hide your actual position.



Now cut it out. I get called an idiot for WAY less stupid questions. You therefore don’t deserve a free pass.

That doesn't answer my question. Why doesn’t it have a lighting input? The worse part about is that Apple doesn't include a USB with the Apple TV and as we saw last week people were scrambling around getting cords to reset their Apple TVs because of the bad update.
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post #138 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMac View Post

As someone who spent a great deal of time in product management, I can tell you that this is one scary chart.  Stock prices are based on future earnings and the MOST IMPORTANT column on this chart is Y/Y Growth.  If you just keep running this chart forward with those growth numbers, Apple will be an insignificant blip in a few years.  

If this isn't motivation for Apple to put out the best 7-8" tablet they can, I don't know what is.  The next Mini absolutely has to be the best in the market.

Of course there's a caveat. 2Q12 had the introduction of the iPad 3. 2Q13 had no new product.
post #139 of 204
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
Why doesn’t it have a lighting input?

 

Oh! Now there’s an interesting take. I think the next one very well could.

 

This one doesn’t, obviously, because it was released before the first Lightning devices.

 
The worse part about is that Apple doesn’t include a USB…

 

Who doesn’t have either one of each USB cord or laying around?

 

Your only answer other than ‘no one’ should be “sane people, who realize that USB is as far from U as a format could be.” :grumble:

 

But they’d definitely include a cable if it switched to Lightning.

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #140 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Who doesn’t have either one of each USB cord or laying around?

Anybody who owns iDevices only, that's who. They might have regular USB cords but not micro USB.
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post #141 of 204
Quote:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by macdaddykane View Post

"shipments"

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Bondm16 View Post
 

 

Want to elaborate?

 

Sure.  No android manufacturer releases actual sales numbers at all, nor do they release shipped numbers either.  

This is a fact.  This means that most of these "shipped" tablets are sitting on store shelves waiting to be sold or in warehouses waiting to be shipped to a buying customer.  They are in "channel inventory".  So these surveys are useless because analysts are guessing on how many actually made it to customers hands.  Contrast that with Apples approach.  Apple actually releases there "sold numbers"  as in being in a paying customers hands every quarter in ther 10Q filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.  You can read how many Apple sold last quarter Here.This is a requirement of a Company Traded in the U.S.  Samsung and any other manufacturer not traded in the U.S. does not have to do this because there technically not traded in this country (The U.S.).  

 

A better metric about how many android tablets are actually out in the wild would be there usage.   Here Apple dominates with about 80% marketshare.  Also this survey is comparing all Android manufacturers including Amazon's forked version and all other forked versions and So Call "white box" no name android brands that do not connect to the Google Play store to Apple.

A farer comparison would be on a manufacturer basis.  But that does not make for a click bate headline.  

One other note, this survey has taken place when sales of Apples iPads are at there lowest, just before Apple is about to release a brand new version of the iPad mini, and Full sized iPad.  Also making the survey meaningless. A yearly comparison would be better.  Not quarterly.

 

Also as the article noted:

Quote:
ABI's most recent figures reflect tablet shipments, and therefore do not necessarily show an accurate representation of the number of tablets bought and in the hands of consumers. 

One other caveat, who are ABI's Clients?  Are there clients android manufacturers?  No where on there website do they list who there actual clientele are.

Samsung in particular  has been caught buying surveys and spending over 4 billion in marketing to pay for favorable surveys and to pay people to post negative info on blog pages against competitors as part of there unscrupulous marketing campaign.

Again I would believe Apple on there numbers more because they actually post them in an S.E.C document for there stock.

But you go ahead and believe what you want.


Edited by Mechanic - 9/29/13 at 9:34am
post #142 of 204
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
Anybody who owns iDevices only, that's who. They might have regular USB cords but not micro USB.

 

Anyone who only owns iDevices won’t be restoring their Apple TV in the first place, so they wouldn’t need a cable.

 

Gotta think things through.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #143 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Anyone who only owns iDevices won’t be restoring their Apple TV in the first place, so they wouldn’t need a cable.

Gotta think things through.

I'd normally agree if we didn't see a multitude have to do just that after a bad update that Apple has since fixed.
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post #144 of 204
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
I'd normally agree if we didn't see a multitude have to do just that after a bad update that Apple has since fixed.

 

No… think a little harder. If they only own iDevices, they don’t have a computer with which to restore the Apple TV in the first place, so they don’t need a cable to attach to the nonexistent computer.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #145 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Contrast that with Apples approach.  Apple actually releases there "sold numbers"  as in being in a paying customers hands every quarter in ther 10Q filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.  You can read how many Apple sold last quarter Here.This is a requirement of a Company Traded in the U.S.  Samsung and any other manufacturer not traded in the U.S. does not have to do this because there technically not traded in this country (The U.S.).  

Your link doesn't claim what you ascribe to it. Note too that the doc you're using says "The preparation of these condensed consolidated financial statements in conformity with U.S. generally accepted accounting principles (“GAAP”) requires management to make estimates and assumptions that affect the amounts reported in these condensed consolidated financial statements and accompanying notes. Actual results could differ materially from those estimates."

I would agree with anyone that claimed Apple is at least making an attempt to estimate channel inventory, something I don't think any of it's competitors does, which helps it's investors make an educated guess of sell-thru. Kudos to Apple for that. No where does Apple claim it's estimates of channel inventory are anything other than that. They never say it's based on partner inventory reports or any other physical count of sales to end-users. In fact Apple won't say just how they arrive at the estimates. Some people are erroneously thinking Apple is reporting audited and factual end-user sales, something they really aren't doing.
Edited by Gatorguy - 9/29/13 at 9:55am
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post #146 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrance View Post

I'm waiting for the retina mini myself. I wonder if Apple will ever add a USB port to their iPad line. It would sure open it up to be a lot more useful.

 

Air Drop.  Also they do make usb adapters.

post #147 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Your link doesn't claim what you ascribe to it. Note too that the doc you're using says "The preparation of these condensed consolidated financial statements in conformity with U.S. generally accepted accounting principles (“GAAP”) requires management to make estimates and assumptions that affect the amounts reported in these condensed consolidated financial statements and accompanying notes. Actual results could differ materially from those estimates."

Yes it does.

Page 27 lists unit sales for all apple products with the header:

Quote:
 

Net Sales

The following table shows net sales by operating segment and net sales and unit sales by product during the three- and nine-month periods ended June 29, 2013 and June 30, 2012 (in millions, except unit sales in thousands):

One reason that "Actual results could differ materially from those estimates" is because while this form is being prepared the number could change, Apple is just covering there legal bases to say that "at the time of this filing" this was our number, but it could change by time you get this document (as in going up slightly).   


Edited by Mechanic - 9/29/13 at 10:00am
post #148 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
 

 

Page 27 lists unit sales for all apple products with the header:

 

Unit Sales include sell-in, so this proves nothing.   Just like the 5S/5C sales numbers, Apple can also use 'sell-in' numbers to distort actual sales.  

post #149 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Page 27 lists unit sales for all apple products with the header:
One reason that "Actual results could differ materially from those estimates" is because while this form is being prepared the number could change, Apple is just covering there legal bases to say that "at the time of this filing" this was our number, but it could change.   

Yes it does. Estimated unit sales are not the same as sell-thru.
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post #150 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

No… think a little harder. If they only own iDevices, they don’t have a computer with which to restore the Apple TV in the first place, so they don’t need a cable to attach to the nonexistent computer.

Well iDevices include iMac in my book.
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post #151 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMac View Post
 

 

Unit Sales include sell-in, so this proves nothing.   Just like the 5S/5C sales numbers, Apple can also use 'sell-in' numbers to distort actual sales.  

 

BS.  These are sales to end customers, and if you want to go there, Tim cook told us that channel inventory was at about 2 weeks for the iPhone 5 before the launch of the 5s.

 

Also this is for Q3 which has already ended.  3 months ago.

 

Also the proof is in the revenue apple reports as well.  If these units are in channel inventory then were does the money there reporting come from? Do they just make up the revenue?  Lie on there 10Q filing?

 

I think not.


Edited by Mechanic - 9/29/13 at 10:13am
post #152 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Yes it does. Estimated unit sales are not the same as sell-thru.

 

Apple acutally reports sales to end customers in there filings and always has.  Not channel inventory.

 

They dont even count online sales  for there opening weekends on devices and dont count the devices that are in transit to there end customers until there signed for as sales.

 

Tell me this do you ever see apple buying back inventory?  From channel partners? No.  They dont have to there sold.

post #153 of 204
Lol.. ... Bogus.
As tim cooksaid once..." What are these people dong with their tablets?'

Apple still has over 75% of the web traffic in tablets with ipad.
So really ... What are those people with other brands doing with their tablets.


Watch the october launch of the ipads... Another block buster on its way.. And the competition and apple haters are getting real desperate and nervous!
post #154 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Originally Posted by island hermit


For a long time I hadn't seen too many. Now I see almost as many Android Tabs as iPads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle View Post

Really?  You must live in China
I'm an expat living in China and see very few Android tablets in major metropolitan areas. They are even using iPads in restaurants to display menus and take orders.

I believe you, but where are the Android tablets? Are people afraid to take them out of their house. I was on a flight yesterday (SFO to DFW). I walked the length of the plane in coach and saw 40 iPads out, 1 surface, and 1 kindle fire.

If it is just that people are buying them and not using them, Androids tablet market share is going to be pretty short lived.
post #155 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Apple acutally reports sales to end customers in there filings and always has.  Not channel inventory.

If you're going to claim that as a fact you could offer a link to it. Unless of course they don't.*

FWIW you seldom see reports of other vendors buying back smartphone of tablet stock either. In fact it's pretty rare to see it reported tho it's happened. Does that prove those "other smart devices" are selling too if they don't report returns?


*I'll save you the trouble. They don't.
Edited by Gatorguy - 9/29/13 at 10:22am
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post #156 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

Volume doesn't work when a product is not selling.

Now you know why Amazon at time lose money and make very little profits.

Btw it is not because they are reinvesting their money. To let stocks sit in the warehouses cost money, a lot of it.
So you think Amazon is not making a profit because Kindle tablets are collecting dust in warehouses somewhere?


Amazon is not making a profit because their investors do not require them to do so.
post #157 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


If you're going to claim that you could offer a link to prove it. Unless of course they don't.

FWIW you seldom see reports of other vendors buying back smartphone of tablet stock either. In fact it's pretty rare to see it reported tho it's happened. Does that prove those "other smart devices" are selling too if they don't report returns?

 

I did provide the link but your not willing to accept that apple does not lie on there 10Q filing.  

So this exorcise is completely pointless because no matter what I say you will not believe it.

I will just leave it at this you believe what you want to and I will believe what I want to. 

The rest is a waste of time.

post #158 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

I did provide the link but your not willing to accept that apple does not lie on there 10Q filing.  
So this exorcise is completely pointless because no matter what I say you will not believe it.
I will just leave it at this you believe what you want to and I will believe what I want to. 
The rest is a waste of time.

I've no doubt you'll believe whatever you wish to see.

Apple doesn't lie on their 10-Q, nor has anyone said they do. They also don't say what you think they do.
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post #159 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

Apple acutally reports sales to end customers in there filings and always has.  Not channel inventory.

If you're going to claim that you could offer a link to prove it. Unless of course they don't.*

FWIW you seldom see reports of other vendors buying back smartphone of tablet stock either. In fact it's pretty rare to see it reported tho it's happened. Does that prove those "other smart devices" are selling too if they don't report returns?


*I'll save you the trouble. They don't.

He told you where to look. Go for it. If your too lazy to read a transcript of the call or look up the data thats your problem. What Apple reports is shipments, starting channel inventory and ending channel inventory for the reporting period. The reader/listener is left to do the basic mathematics required to find out what went to customers. Apple is the only major phone manufacturer that reports any sales statistics at all. I will not provide you a link to that, but once again you are welcome to go read all of their fillings and transcripts and see if you come up with something different.

You being incredibly lazy and just making things up does not require other people to do your work for you. Do you have a link stating that Apple is lying in all of their reports? (I assume such a link would come from the DOJ or the SEC).
post #160 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

If I remember right, these types of LCD displays are still very new for that size, meaning supply constraints are probably very real. The amount needed for Nexus tablets would be quite different than for iPad minis.
Apple doesn't seem to have a problem making 3.5", 4" and 9.7" retina displays. Why would 7.9" be so problematic? Especially for a company that is supposedly the envy of the word when it comes to supply chain? Apparently Apple can do just about anything....except produce retina displays for the iPad mini. Even though competitors don't seems to have a problem doing it. I don't get it.
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