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Delta Pilots fought against deal to replace iPad flight bags with Microsoft Surface - Page 4

post #121 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

I'm sure "poorly-written third-party drivers" explain why every PC I've been forced to use needed to be rebooted every five minutes, no matter how big the organization that set them up.

Sure, to Windows those third-party drivers are just binary blobs. When Windows encounters an infinite loop written by some sloppy driver programmer, what options does it have? OS X has to deal with this problem far less frequently because all of the components that go into Apple computers are carefully vetted by Apple to work flawlessly with their own OS. 

 

What OEMs did those organizations purchase from? I'm guessing Dell? That seems to be quite popular with businesses. Those major OEMs aren't exactly known for using carefully selected, rigorously tested components. The frequency of BSODs testifies to that fact.

 

At any rate, BSODs are much less common these days because third-party drivers have better tools for testing their code (http://www.zdnet.com/why-the-blue-screen-of-death-no-longer-plagues-windows-users-7000021327/). Windows 7 is a rock-solid OS. In fact, my mac has crashed far more often than any windows 7 machine I've used (but I'm willing to accept the possibility that my mac might just be a lemon).


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 10/1/13 at 8:20am
post #122 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post

"We fought hard for iPad," a pilot working for the airline told AppleInsider.

Its possible *this* pilot felt strongly about using iPads instead of Surfaces but I doubt most pilots even care. If it works whats the issue? If the IT folks decide its a better solution because it fits their Microsoft centric ecosystem then deal with it. This specific use case is particularly locked down with only one or two apps are installed - there's no real advantage of using iPads instead. With Surfaces you'll get the benefits of proper device management for thousands of users. That's significant.

 

There are real advantages to using iPads - platform maturity, quality, reliability, touch response (whereas 'surface' rates poorly), etc.

 

Proper device management?  Oh, you mean all the stuff you can do through group policy in Windows to make the devices on the domain basically unusable?  Or you could have proper device management (of your choice) that works: http://www.apple.com/ipad/business/it/management.html  A good MDM product example: http://www.mobileiron.com/

post #123 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creep View Post

A couple of things: First, how is choosing Surface over the iPad putting "public safety at risk"?  The FCC/NTSB will make the determination on Surface's viability as an EFB...and I'm fairly certain they understand the requirements better than you.  I would think that a company that pinches pennies in every area that doesn't affect the customer experience would be a good one to fly.  After all, it's our fares that are paying for this stuff.  I'm not suggesting that the cost savings between Surface and iPad are going to show up in the price of a ticket, but if it points to a larger practice of being a thrifty corporate entity, then I'm all for it.  Did you miss the part of the article that said Delta rolled iPads in their airport restaurants?  They understand the desire to use an ipad, no doubt.  They simply decided to put those ipads in the most visible place...where their customers could use them.

And as for your "Under the Dome" reference...we're talking about a show about a town stuck under an impenetrable glass dome, whose secrets are somehow connected to butterflies, but you [COLOR=000“We’ve been fighting for our customers on this issue for years — testing an airplane packed full of Kindles, working with the F.A.A., and serving as the device manufacturer on this committee,” Drew Herdener, a spokesman for Amazon, which makes the Kindle. “This is a big win for customers and, frankly, it’s about time.”000]felt the use of MS Mobile products by so many people was unrealistic[/COLOR]?  

Oh please, give us a break. Anyone that follows tech closely knows that the surface RT is crap running a crappy OS and is a huge failure in every respect. (The Surface 2 is nothing more than a rebranded RT.) Further to your comment about the TV show, yes indeed, it is totally unrealistic to be using all that MSFT mobile crap, under any circumstance!
post #124 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 

 

But that's exactly what everyone said was so great about Windows during the 90s: commodity hardware! Cheap parts! Vendor drivers!

Now it's all about the advantages of Apple-style vertical integration between hardware and software.

Hmmpf. And there you are, giving Microsoft credit for finally doing what Apple has been doing since 1984. :no: 

 

Alternatively you could argue that Apple was wrong for two decades 1984-2004. Microsoft's model ruled the roost for over 20 years.. But nothing lasts forever so now that times have changed Microsoft is attempting to adapt. That's what good companies do. Apple was forced to adapt after nearly going out of business in 1999 - It was the iPod / iTunes combination that pulled them from the brink.

post #125 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post

"We fought hard for iPad," a pilot working for the airline told AppleInsider.

Its possible *this* pilot felt strongly about using iPads instead of Surfaces but I doubt most pilots even care. If it works whats the issue? If the IT folks decide its a better solution because it fits their Microsoft centric ecosystem then deal with it. This specific use case is particularly locked down with only one or two apps are installed - there's no real advantage of using iPads instead. With Surfaces you'll get the benefits of proper device management for thousands of users. That's significant.

It's also easy to properly manage devices for thousands of iPads. Please learn something about topics before blabbing.

As for pilots not caring, that would be rather odd. The iPad is overwhelmingly preferred by the public in general, so why would pilots have greater preference for the clunky, inefficient Windows interface?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creep View Post

A couple of things: First, how is choosing Surface over the iPad putting "public safety at risk"?

They've selected a product which is not even approved for in-flight use. Sounds pretty risky.
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post #126 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post
 

 

There are real advantages to using iPads - platform maturity, quality, reliability, touch response (whereas 'surface' rates poorly), etc.

 

Proper device management?  Oh, you mean all the stuff you can do through group policy in Windows to make the devices on the domain basically unusable?  Or you could have proper device management (of your choice) that works: http://www.apple.com/ipad/business/it/management.html  A good MDM product example: http://www.mobileiron.com/

 

Again this is a locked down specific use case. Touch response is associated with Surface RT and its underpowered CPU. Surface 2 does not have these problems. The Apple device management solution is clearly not as attractive to an organization already managing thousands of devices in Windows. It doesn't fit as nicely. I'm not saying it isn't riskier going with Surface 2 instead of the more "mature" platform - but it is obviously a risk they are willing to take for all the other benefits. If Surface 2 doesn't perform as expected they'll surely drop it next time around .. but if it does then it's a big win for Microsoft.

post #127 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


It's also easy to properly manage devices for thousands of iPads. Please learn something about topics before blabbing.

As for pilots not caring, that would be rather odd. The iPad is overwhelmingly preferred by the public in general, so why would pilots have greater preference for the clunky, inefficient Windows interface?
They've selected a product which is not even approved for in-flight use. Sounds pretty risky.

 

I should've said it is easier to manage Windows devices in a Microsoft centric environment. That's likely where Delta is.

 

They'll surely go through the required acceptance testing before this goes live. And besides - if it fails this will be awesome fodder for Apple fans. So if you're confident it will fail - then just give it time so you can say "i told you so". But if it works then good for Microsoft - competition is great for consumers :)

post #128 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post

Again this is a locked down specific use case. Touch response is associated with Surface RT and its underpowered CPU. Surface 2 does not have these problems. The Apple device management solution is clearly not as attractive to an organization already managing thousands of devices in Windows. It doesn't fit as nicely. I'm not saying it isn't riskier going with Surface 2 instead of the more "mature" platform - but it is obviously a risk they are willing to take for all the other benefits. If Surface 2 doesn't perform as expected they'll surely drop it next time around .. but if it does then it's a big win for Microsoft.

Given that the surface 2 has not been released, how can you possibly make the claim that it has solved the responsiveness issue?

Nobody in their right mind actually believes that this decision was made by sitting down and thinking realistically about the pros and cons of each device. This was Microsoft throwing Delta some crazy deal in return for publicity, and it will most likely end up burning Delta when Microsoft finally decides to stop flushing money down the toilet and pulls the RT (or the entire Surface product line).
post #129 of 162
Puts me off flying Delta! I'd have more faith in them thumbing through a book, at least books don't get infected with malware, viruses or crash.
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post #130 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post
 

 

I should've said it is easier to manage Windows devices in a Microsoft centric environment. That's likely where Delta is.

 

 

You couldn't be more wrong. RT, even with the new Workplace Join bit they're adding for Surface 2, cannot be managed directly via Active Directory. Your choices are leading MDM providers such as MobileIron (who manage Apple devices amongst others) or Windows Intune, Microsoft's cloud based MDM that doesn't scale to over 500 users. So there is no incentive to use Surface for Delta from a device management POV.

post #131 of 162
I'm waiting for some hacker in coach to break into the pilot's Surface device and cause mischief - or worse.
post #132 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by canardmince View Post
 

 

You couldn't be more wrong. RT, even with the new Workplace Join bit they're adding for Surface 2, cannot be managed directly via Active Directory. Your choices are leading MDM providers such as MobileIron (who manage Apple devices amongst others) or Windows Intune, Microsoft's cloud based MDM that doesn't scale to over 500 users. So there is no incentive to use Surface for Delta from a device management POV.

 

OK here are couple more reasons straight from Delta:
 

Quote:

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/10/01/delta-pilots-getting-microsoft-surface-instead-ipad/

One reason Delta picked a Microsoft device was that it's easier to give pilots separate sections for company and personal use, said Steve Dickson, Delta's senior vice president for flight operations.

 

Pilots will be able to install personal software and keep their own items such as photos on the personal section of the devices, while another portion will be dedicated to Delta's software, Dickson said.

 

"We trust them to manage that side of the device," Dickson said.

 

Another reason for picking the Surface tablet is that Delta's training software also runs on the same Windows operating system as the tablets, reducing the need to redo that software for another device, Dickson said.

post #133 of 162

Here's another reason:

 

Quote:
The Delta press release explains how some of the unique aspects of Windows 8.1 influenced the decision to go with Surface 2: “With the Windows RT 8.1 operating system, pilots will be able to open two applications side-by-side, offering, for example, the opportunity to assess weather information alongside proposed flight paths.”
post #134 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post
 

 

I disagree. Somehow I feel more secure when knowing they care deeply about all equipments. It's easy to say that it's not related but airplane had been crashed with stranger thing before.

 

how about they care enough to keep pilots from sleeping or drinking on the job? Tapping once or twice has ZERO value within safety, ZERO! 

post #135 of 162

Regarding Windows 8.1 device management benefits:

 

Quote:
Enhanced manageability: Open and expanded Mobile Device Management (MDM) support is now built into the operating system (leveraged by Windows Intune as well as third-party MDM tools). Responding to customer feedback, Windows 8.1 Enterprise and Windows RT 8.1 also support a new policy setting called Start Screen Control that allows IT to control the layout of the Start Screen on company-issued devices and prevent users from customizing the layout if needed. This is especially useful for shared computers, multi-purpose kiosks running multiple apps, and other fixed-use scenarios.
post #136 of 162
It would have been great to say what features the pilots liked. There must have been something really glaringly wrong with the iPad for the delay. Google doesn't seem to have anything for poor Surface touch reviews. $900 Million write down is nothing compared to the combined $29 Billion worth of unsold iPhones with Verizon and Sprint.
post #137 of 162
The expensive 2-year wait would not be expensive if you take into account of other benefits offered by MSFT, just the travel contract would yield tens of million to Delta. Good thing is MSFT cannot give travel contract to all the airlines
post #138 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

BSODs were by and large caused by poorly written third-party hardware drivers running in XP and earlier. The 2008 opening ceremony used XP, and given the rampant windows piracy in China, who knows if it was supported by microsoft? At any rate, by designing the Surface in-house MS avoids the very problem of obscure third-party drivers. 

Yeah, because Microsoft's own FireWire driver is so obscure. I guess, to them, it is: They didn't bother updating it for several OS releases.
post #139 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by plovell View Post

It's a rather high-risk, high-visibility announcement.

Surface 2 has only just launched so there hasn't been any trial. And no-one knows for sure if it will be certified by FAA, or how long that will take. If it fails, Delta will be looking very stupid.

Even if the Delta folks wanted to do SUrface 2, it would have been prudent to do some testing first. But I bet that Microsoft pushed them *very* hard for the announcement to be made now, to help with Surface rollout.

It would not surprise me to find that the devices are free and that Microsoft writes off the cost as marketing expense. It would be a drop in the bucket compared to the write-off they just took on the original models.

Don't worry. Microsoft will just lobby the FAA to authorize the Surface 2, regardless of actual performance. This is all Microsoft really does. Their products would be nowhere without their politicking.
post #140 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post


Don't worry. Microsoft will just lobby the FAA to authorize the Surface 2, regardless of actual performance. This is all Microsoft really does. Their products would be nowhere without their politicking.

 

Have any facts or examples to back that statment up? ... or are you just making up crap as it suits you?

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post #141 of 162
Sometimes you have to admit that another product can be chosen over the iPad. In this case it probably makes sense for Delta to choose Microsoft over Apple as they have a significant investment in Microsoft technologies. Since we don't know the parameters of the decision process we cannot assume they made the choice for anything beyond a good fit with their current technology deployment.

Unfortunately this article makes many erroneous assumptions, which makes this small loss for Apple look petty. Try not to be so bitter when a competitor wins. Competition is what makes great products!
post #142 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post
 

 

Alternatively you could argue that Apple was wrong for two decades 1984-2004. Microsoft's model ruled the roost for over 20 years.. But nothing lasts forever so now that times have changed Microsoft is attempting to adapt. That's what good companies do. Apple was forced to adapt after nearly going out of business in 1999 - It was the iPod / iTunes combination that pulled them from the brink.

 

WRONG. The Bondi Blue iMac pulled them from the brink, long before iPod / iTunes, even before Mac OS X was ready. And what was it? Another closed, vertically integrated, all-in-one Mac with limited expansion and NO FLOPPY DRIVES, which caused an outcry. Unless you considered translucent colored plastic to be "adapting." No. Apple became focused, an even better version of itself.

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post #143 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post
 

 

Yes, I know what they are used for. And no, the FAA does not have to get into details about how sensitive a touch device is or is not. You won't crash your aircraft if you have to tap twice on an approach chart. 

I'm guessing you've never flown a single or twin piston engine aircraft, with no autopilot, in turbulent IMC, while trying to work an iPad, without busting your altitude.  Situation awareness can really suffer when trying to juggle that many things.

post #144 of 162
So all Microsoft employees must now fly Delta? These companies deserve each other.
post #145 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post
 

I'm guessing you've never flown a single or twin piston engine aircraft, with no autopilot, in turbulent IMC, while trying to work an iPad, without busting your altitude.  Situation awareness can really suffer when trying to juggle that many things.

 

Situational awareness if vital (almost to having enough fuel*); however, the time you pick up from having to shuffle paper copies to 'tapping twice' is so huge, why is this even a conversation with the FAA? When you fly, are you telling me that having to tap twice on a screen diverts your attention so much that it may be critical to your flight? Then I suggest you get autopilot :) 

 

*you can never have enough fuel... unless you are on fire :) 

post #146 of 162

Technically it was Microsoft's $150 investment that pulled Apple from the brink. But that's another story.

http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2009/08/dayintech_0806/

 

Apple's Macs aren't responsible for the huge turn to profitability. Its was Apple's focus on mobile devices first with music players, then the "music player + phone + communication" device also known as the iPhone and soon after that the iPad. That's hardly debatable.

post #147 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post

Technically it was Microsoft's $150 investment that pulled Apple from the brink. But that's another story.
http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2009/08/dayintech_0806/

Apple's Macs aren't responsible for the huge turn to profitability. Its was Apple's focus on mobile devices first with music players, then the "music player + phone + communication" device also known as the iPhone and soon after that the iPad. That's hardly debatable.

And in true moronic fashion MS sold their investment as soon as they could.
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post #148 of 162
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post
Technically it was Microsoft's $150 investment that pulled Apple from the brink. But that's another story.

 

No, technically you don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about. If you want firsthand proof, ask our resident NeXT employee to tell you how stupid you sound.

 
Apple's Macs aren't responsible for the huge turn to profitability.

 

Other than the fact that they were, as all quarterly reports from 1995 to 2001 show.

 
That's hardly debatable. 

 

It’s hardly debatable that you’re wrong in every conceivable way there is to be wrong.

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post #149 of 162
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:

Technically it was Microsoft's $150 investment that pulled Apple from the brink. But that's another story.

 

 

No, technically you don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about. If you want firsthand proof, ask our resident NeXT employee to tell you how stupid you sound.

 

Other than the fact that they were, as all quarterly reports from 1995 to 2001 show.

 

1995 - 2001?

1995 was the start of a severe downward trend for AAPL. It started to turnaround after August 1997 - The month MSFT invested $150M. That's not a coincidence. I know its hard for you to swallow but that doesn't mean its not true.

post #150 of 162
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post

1995 was the start of a severe downward trend for AAPL.

 

And at what point did I say anything about the stock price? You’re to look at ’95’s reports for a reference where they were, then where they went. Microsoft’s investment didn’t earn them any money.

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post #151 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

And at what point did I say anything about the stock price? You’re to look at ’95’s reports for a reference where they were, then where they went. Microsoft’s investment didn’t earn them any money.

 

It kept AAPL in business. They needed the cash is the point. Their existing business was not getting it done for them. Microsoft's commitment to continue supporting MS Office for Mac was critical in keeping the Mac a viable alternative to the PC.

 

Quote:
 
"Walter Isaacson’s Jobs’ biography"
Jobs: I called up Bill and said, “I’m going to turn this thing around.” Bill always had a soft spot for Apple. We got him into the application software business. The first Microsoft apps were Excel and Word for the Mac. So I called him and said, “I need help.” Microsoft was walking over Apple’s patents. I said, “If we kept up our lawsuits, a few years from now we could win a billion-dollar patent suit. You know it, and I know it. But Apple’s not going to survive that long if we’re at war. I know that. So let’s figure out how to settle this right away. All I need is a commitment that Microsoft will keep developing for the Mac and an investment by Microsoft in Apple so it has a stake in our success.
post #152 of 162
Originally Posted by dajunga View Post

It kept AAPL in business.

 

Yeah, we’ve already said otherwise. 

 
They needed the cash is the point.

 

Didn’t; their products were already making it back.

 
Their existing business was not getting it done for them.

 

That’d be why Steve Jobs axed the entire product line when he returned and completely revamped the business.

 
Microsoft's commitment to continue supporting MS Office for Mac was critical in keeping the Mac a viable alternative to the PC.

 

Mmm… I’ll say nah to that.

 

And your quote doesn’t support your argument, by the way.

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post #153 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Yeah, we’ve already said otherwise. 

 

Didn’t; their products were already making it back.

 

That’d be why Steve Jobs axed the entire product line when he returned and completely revamped the business.

 

Mmm… I’ll say nah to that.

 

And your quote doesn’t support your argument, by the way.

 

Ok.

post #154 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post
 

I'm guessing you've never flown a single or twin piston engine aircraft, with no autopilot, in turbulent IMC, while trying to work an iPad, without busting your altitude.  Situation awareness can really suffer when trying to juggle that many things.

 

So how do you manage flipping through pages in 40lbs of manuals under the same circumstances?

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post #155 of 162
I'll never forget we had a flight get delayed due to issues with the cockpit computer once. They ended up having us exit & get on a different plane. As we passed the cockpit I saw through the door the flight computer had the blue screen of death. Judging by these pilot's opposition to the surface makes me wonder how often they've seen that screen.
post #156 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezetation View Post

I'll never forget we had a flight get delayed due to issues with the cockpit computer once. They ended up having us exit & get on a different plane. As we passed the cockpit I saw through the door the flight computer had the blue screen of death. Judging by these pilot's opposition to the surface makes me wonder how often they've seen that screen.

 

See... now you're just making shit up.

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post #157 of 162
As a former iPad app developer for an airline, I can say that iOS is currently a poor platform for enterprise, business, and general productivity. The app I made for iPad took me 5 months, but if I did it on .Microsoft's .NET it would have taken me a few weeks. Objective-C is archaic and is reminiscent of programming in the 1990's. And what consumers don't know is Apple is far behind in giving tools to developers. Want to learn about Apple programming? Well, buy a book and in three months it will be a nice paperweight. Apple is trying so hard to catch up to Java and Microsoft because they traditionally were hostile towards developers tampering their system. Of course, that changed when Droid forced them to open their ecosystem to app makers outside of Apple. Making Apple apps is doable if you are making consumer apps. But if you are working with databases, crunching numbers, or doing anything productive, you have to resort to straight-up C!

Delta went with Microsoft because Microsoft's .NET platform is business-oriented and manageable to develop business solutions on. If Apple wants to cater to business (which they won't), they need to support Java on iOS or have a modern development framework much like Microsoft has with .NET, not some half-baked Objective-C framework that is always changing in desperate attempts to play catchup.
post #158 of 162

I guess Steve said it best in his D10 interview, and this closely mirrors my experience working as a teacher in a school as well.

 

"In enterprise, consumers don't get to choose for themselves, and the people making the decisions usually aren't the ones using them anyways". 

 

Well, the pilots can only suck it up. 

post #159 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post
 

Proper device management?  Oh, you mean all the stuff you can do through group policy in Windows to make the devices on the domain basically unusable? 

Can you elaborate on this? I was under the impression that group policy together with active directory is the gold standard for managing computers in a network. So popular is it that Centrify makes a business out of bringing similar management tools to OS X and Linux.

post #160 of 162
Originally Posted by RacerRex9727 View Post
Wow, just wow.

 

I realize you have a lot of free time now, Ballmer, but maybe spend it in reflection on your life instead of trolling Apple forums.

 
The app I made for iPad took me 5 months, but if I did it on .Microsoft's .NET it would have taken me a few weeks.

 

I’m sorry you’re so bad at standards-based coding.

 
Objective-C is archaic and is reminiscent of programming in the 1990's.

 

And Windows still uses the Registry as its foundation. Sounds like someone’s overcompensating.

 
And what consumers don't know is Apple is far behind in giving tools to developers.

 

Free development platform instead of $10,000… free documentation… support comes free with your paid ability to submit apps at all… Sounds like you’re completely wrong.

 
Delta went with Microsoft because Microsoft's .NET platform is business-oriented and manageable to develop business solutions on.

 

Is there a wronger wrong than “completely and utterly wrong”?

Originally posted by Marvin

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