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Delta Pilots fought against deal to replace iPad flight bags with Microsoft Surface - Page 3

post #81 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post
 

Keep in mind people M$ keeps lots of IT folks in a job, in Indian that is. We all know IT has always hated Apple since it just works and does not need masses of cheap labor unable to answer your questions when things do not work.

 

Face it M$ products are a job program for countries like Indian.

 

Yes, in Australia we get frequent calls from Indian call centres saying 'Microsoft' has detected problems with our Windows machines that they need to fix for us. Of course those of us with Macs find these scams rather amusing. But the IT industry seems incapable, or unwilling, to close down these Microsoft-inspired scams.

 

When will the IT industry stop protecting the interests of a company that produces such crappy products that scammers, criminals and amateur IT technicians can profit from their laziness and lack of concern for quality?

post #82 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExDL View Post

I heard that all of the recent Delta/Microsoft decisions were the direct order of Delta's CEO, Richard Anderson. He and Ballmer have been friends for a long time. Both of them have strong ties to Detroit and frequently overlap at events like The National Summit. Look for an article in the April 2012 Sky magazine for some of their candid conversations.
Not true. The majority are Apple fanatics. The Delta team has *excellent* ties to Cupertino and the two companies collaborated heavily to get the FlyDelta app launched (note how frequently it shows up in marketing images when Apple needs to use an icon).
When Delta's technology committee was charged with a new point-of-sale method, they recommended Apple. With the tablet tests winding down, IT recommended keeping the iPads. There's speculation that neither report was read by Richard, as the Delta executive team had already been swayed by the insider deal Microsoft offered.

PS: The flight attendants hate the Lumias too, so it's not just the pilots who are disappointed.

Delta does have an excellent app which is easily the best app in their market.
post #83 of 162
Quote: "A report by the Wall Street Journal said Delta estimates it will save $13 million in fuel costs by moving to EFBs, so delaying the transition from paper by two years for the Surface 2 could cost the airline $20 million or more, far more than the roughly $5.5 million the tablets would actually cost."

Add in at least another $13 million when the Surface drops off the market and Delta has to spend a year or so retooling for iPads. Time lost to the competition: 3 years.

Of course, $20-30 million is nothing for Microsoft, especially when their public persona is concerned, so I suspect there's a hidden clause in the contract that will allow Delta to recoup at least some of that loss if Microsoft abandons the tablet market. Unfortunately, that'll do nothing for the "our bosses are idiots" loss of morale by flight crews.

Years ago, I knew someone with a company whose salesmen felt they needed full-sized cars to carry all their samples. They were ticked off when a penny-pinching management forced them into compact cars. Their supervisor came up with a response. They would add oil when it got low, but they'd never, never get the oil changed.

I hope Delta is buying a lot of extras, because my hunch is that those Surface 2s are going to suffer from quite a few accidents.
post #84 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

No he's Japanese and trying write in English which he probably does much better than you write in Japanese. Either way we understood the message but unfortunately it seems to fail anyway because outsourcing customer support to India has almost nothing to do with US companies' IT departments trying to keep themselves employed. I doubt the pilots would be calling customer support anyway.

 



Actually Jjaro is Japanese and the original poster, Maestro64, is from Philadelphia!
post #85 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


This reminds me of a recent TV show that I was watching, "Under the Dome". I saw numerous Windows phones and Surface tablets in that TV series. The way that they were featured was so in your face and so obvious, that it could only have been a paid product placement by Microsoft. It was totally unrealistic to see a product that is a certified flop pop up all over a TV show, but that hardly anybody uses in real life.


 



Haha, yes I noticed that as well! There are also a fair number of shows that have a large number of Apple products on show, but the difference is that they are always in a realistic setting. They've started using Surface tablets on NCIS: Los Angeles and I always groan when they start "touching and flicking" and the Surface display is clearly superimposed!
post #86 of 162
Maybe Microsoft could pay corporations to force their employees to search using IE and Bing.

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post #87 of 162

unfortunately this is a story repeated daily all over the place. Clueless Microsoft drones forcing garbage Microsoft software on IT departments.  The problem is the vast majority of IT people in the corporate world are totally useless idiots who have zero clue. 

post #88 of 162
No surprise here. It's the only way Microsoft can sell their crappy products. They make deals with companies and companies force people to use them. It worked for them before with Windows. Whenever users have a choice, they choose Apple.
post #89 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Maybe Microsoft could pay corporations to force their employees to search using IE and Bing.

 

they are starting to do this. Where i work they have the horrible WebSense nonsense which blocks all sorts of things. At least twice a month GOogle will be blocked along with Gmail for a few hours.  Then i check BING and MSN/Hotmail//Live Mail/Outlook or whatever it is called this week and they magically work fine.

post #90 of 162

You know when you go to some remote part of a third world country and you see the whole town wearing t-shirts from 1980's tv shows or bands? Somebody obviously unloaded a warehouse of clothes they couldn't get rid of. 

 

Sorry Delta pilots, that is you. 

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post #91 of 162
Delta seems pretty confident that the Surface 2 will pass the FAA%u2019s tests... Imagine the irony should the Surface 2 wound up failing those tests. Irk some of your pilots for nothing...
post #92 of 162
All I can say is when a user in an enterprise gets the BSOD, no body dies, when a pilot gets it on take off or landing, could be disastrous. Surface runs Windows 8 and because it has not been widely adopted by many organizations, it has not been put through its paces like Windows 7. How many Service packs did Win 7 got after launch because of wide adoption? Two. How many SP's did Win 8 got? None until they came out with 8.1. That's why the surface should stay out of mission critical applications, major enterprises know this which is they have not deployed it fully.
post #93 of 162
Quote:
 Nearly three years ago, Dell announced plans to adopt 25,000 Windows Phone 7 devices the month after Microsoft launched its new WP7 platform.

The move appeared to account for many of the WP7 phones that eventually sold, but didn't benefit Dell's struggling operations or enable either company to make headway into the mobile market.

 

Why are there two paragraphs about Dell in the middle of this article? Kinda confusing when "Dell" and "Delta" are pretty close, and there's no transitional sentence to explain the digression.

post #94 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMacMan View Post

......That's why the surface should stay out of mission critical applications, major enterprises know this which is they have not deployed it fully.

Microsoft in general needs to stay out of mission-critical applications. In "The enterprise" (Fu¢king god, how I hate that term! What a bunch of pretentious a$$holes!), it doesn't matter, because nothing that they're doing makes a bit of difference. It didn't make any difference when it was cubicle drones shuffling papers from one pile to another, and it doesn't make any difference now that it's cubicle drones clacking away on keyboards. (I remember when, for a computer to be "suitable for business use", all that was necessary was that it have a green-and-black text-only screen, because unless your every moment on the job was a living hell, you weren't earning your pay.)

However, in anything that matters—anybody remember the 2008 Olympics opening ceremonies? Of course, on NBC, we only saw a split second of the BSoD, and they immediately picked up again after an unknown period of time. Like Tex Johnson's barrel roll in the 707 prototype over the 1955 Gold Cup, it may be 30 years before it emerges from the Memory Hole and we get the details. The thing to take away is: this is what happens when Microsoft has a literal army working on something for years! Sorry, anything critical to a plane in flight should have no connection to Microsoft whatsoever!
post #95 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creep View Post

A couple of things: First, how is choosing Surface over the iPad putting "public safety at risk"?  The FCC/NTSB will make the determination on Surface's viability as an EFB...and I'm fairly certain they understand the requirements better than you.  I would think that a company that pinches pennies in every area that doesn't affect the customer experience would be a good one to fly.  After all, it's our fares that are paying for this stuff.  I'm not suggesting that the cost savings between Surface and iPad are going to show up in the price of a ticket, but if it points to a larger practice of being a thrifty corporate entity, then I'm all for it.  Did you miss the part of the article that said Delta rolled iPads in their airport restaurants?  They understand the desire to use an ipad, no doubt.  They simply decided to put those ipads in the most visible place...where their customers could use them.

And as for your "Under the Dome" reference...we're talking about a show about a town stuck under an impenetrable glass dome, whose secrets are somehow connected to butterflies, but you felt the use of MS Mobile products by so many people was unrealistic?  

Did you miss the part about how much the two year delay will cost?
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post #96 of 162

Hmm. Looks like somebody has to fill the pockets and pilots are aware of this. :D

post #97 of 162

we are looking at more of Ballmer's last hurrah. whatever bribe he offered Delta, the Surface (RT) 2 is DOA. there won't be any 2 or 3 for Delta IT whores to use next year at all. the next MS CEO is going to bury this sad misadventure. MS will double down on the Pro because that is Gates' folly, and he ain't gone - yet. but the RT is a total dead end.

post #98 of 162

The corporate world is so satisfying.

post #99 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I'm not sure what tobacco has to do with Surface tablets, but are you thinking about series like "Mad Men"?

Its a reference to the movie 'thank you for smoking'
post #100 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExDL View Post

I heard that all of the recent Delta/Microsoft decisions were the direct order of Delta's CEO, Richard Anderson. He and Ballmer have been friends for a long time. Both of them have strong ties to Detroit and frequently overlap at events like The National Summit. Look for an article in the April 2012 Sky magazine for some of their candid conversations.
Not true. The majority are Apple fanatics. The Delta team has *excellent* ties to Cupertino and the two companies collaborated heavily to get the FlyDelta app launched (note how frequently it shows up in marketing images when Apple needs to use an icon).
When Delta's technology committee was charged with a new point-of-sale method, they recommended Apple. With the tablet tests winding down, IT recommended keeping the iPads. There's speculation that neither report was read by Richard, as the Delta executive team had already been swayed by the insider deal Microsoft offered.

PS: The flight attendants hate the Lumias too, so it's not just the pilots who are disappointed.

If this is true, this is the real story here, and be it noted that it was DED's digging for pilot opinion that brought it out.

Someone should tell Gruber to get off his high horse and do some of his own digging, rather than poke fun at AI as he did today in reference to this story.
post #101 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

However, in anything that matters—anybody remember the 2008 Olympics opening ceremonies? Of course, on NBC, we only saw a split second of the BSoD, and they immediately picked up again after an unknown period of time. Like Tex Johnson's barrel roll in the 707 prototype over the 1955 Gold Cup, it may be 30 years before it emerges from the Memory Hole and we get the details. The thing to take away is: this is what happens when Microsoft has a literal army working on something for years! Sorry, anything critical to a plane in flight should have no connection to Microsoft whatsoever!

BSODs were by and large caused by poorly written third-party hardware drivers running in XP and earlier. The 2008 opening ceremony used XP, and given the rampant windows piracy in China, who knows if it was supported by microsoft? At any rate, by designing the Surface in-house MS avoids the very problem of obscure third-party drivers. 

post #102 of 162
This gives a whole new meaning to the phrase 'blue screen of Death'!
post #103 of 162
Now I get it, Microsoft are adopting a strategy of 'corporate dumping' of their touch devices, using their strength in corporate IT to fight Apple. I don't blame them, its probably their only hope to retain those important corporate customers as the desktop PC gradually declines in number. For many applications in house it won't matter that users are forced to use a suboptimal touch device, it will just irritate them.

Microsoft are fighting BYOD and mobile touch all at the same time. The rot has set in now, its probably too late to fix it, but they haven't really got an option its a question of survival as a cash cow rather than a question of innovation and growing market share.
post #104 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landcruiser View Post

... I think I'll fly an airline where the pilots aren't ticked off at their own company.

 

Good luck finding one in the U.S. !

 

(USAirways is out. So's United and American... You've ruled out Delta... Virgin America pilots are a bit perturbed at management right now... )

 

I haven't spoken with pilots from Alaska Airines or Jet Blue recently... maybe they will work for you.

 

Of course, If you're flying domestically, then the odds are that you're actually flying on something like Skywest anyhow, which is AAA-ball at best. ;)

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post #105 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

BSODs were by and large caused by poorly written third-party hardware drivers running in XP and earlier. The 2008 opening ceremony used XP, and given the rampant windows piracy in China, who knows if it was supported by microsoft? At any rate, by designing the Surface in-house MS avoids the very problem of obscure third-party drivers. 

 

But that's exactly what everyone said was so great about Windows during the 90s: commodity hardware! Cheap parts! Vendor drivers!

Now it's all about the advantages of Apple-style vertical integration between hardware and software.

Hmmpf. And there you are, giving Microsoft credit for finally doing what Apple has been doing since 1984. :no: 

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post #106 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExDL View Post


I heard that all of the recent Delta/Microsoft decisions were the direct order of Delta's CEO, Richard Anderson. He and Ballmer have been friends for a long time. Both of them have strong ties to Detroit and frequently overlap at events like The National Summit. Look for an article in the April 2012 Sky magazine for some of their candid conversations.
Not true. The majority are Apple fanatics. The Delta team has *excellent* ties to Cupertino and the two companies collaborated heavily to get the FlyDelta app launched (note how frequently it shows up in marketing images when Apple needs to use an icon).
When Delta's technology committee was charged with a new point-of-sale method, they recommended Apple. With the tablet tests winding down, IT recommended keeping the iPads. There's speculation that neither report was read by Richard, as the Delta executive team had already been swayed by the insider deal Microsoft offered.

PS: The flight attendants hate the Lumias too, so it's not just the pilots who are disappointed.

Thank you for the, I suppose, first-hand information.

post #107 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post
 

 

Your argument is bases off functions the iPad does not do, you realize that, yes? These devices replace the paper maps and charts, and some checklists. They DO NOT interact with the aircraft in any way. Also to your point, the ineptness of a pilot is not based on their device as you just gave example of a $80 million aircraft that the pilot mismanaged, and I am sure the FAA had very strict guidelines on. 

 

Also, this has nothing to do with the app as it is not provided by Microsoft or Apple. Again, having to tap twice on a chart will not in any way make the flight unsafe. 

 

I disagree. Somehow I feel more secure when knowing they care deeply about all equipments. It's easy to say that it's not related but airplane had been crashed with stranger thing before.

post #108 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

 
BSODs were by and large caused by poorly written third-party hardware drivers running in XP and earlier. The 2008 opening ceremony used XP, and given the rampant windows piracy in China, who knows if it was supported by microsoft? At any rate, by designing the Surface in-house MS avoids the very problem of obscure third-party drivers. 

But that's exactly what everyone said was so great about Windows during the 90s: commodity hardware! Cheap parts! Vendor drivers!
Now it's all about the advantages of Apple-style vertical integration between hardware and software.
Hmmpf. And there you are, giving Microsoft credit for finally doing what Apple has been doing since 1984. 1oyvey.gif  

Seriously,.. "given the rampant windows piracy in China"...So the Chinese government used pirated Microsoft software to run the biggest international event in their history, for billions of people to watch, including everybody at Microsoft? The excuses Windoze-apologists come up with are usually really tiresome, but this one makes me smile. I'm sure there weren't thousands of Microsoft people working on this setup for several years—of course not. And Steve Ballmer watched the games with its prominent display of Microsoft software and it never occurred to him to wonder why they never got in touch with Redmond.

I'm sure "poorly-written third-party drivers" explain why every PC I've been forced to use needed to be rebooted every five minutes, no matter how big the organization that set them up.
post #109 of 162

 

This.  You want to trust your and your family's lives to THIS?!

 

Yes, it's a Surface RT...and the Surface II will be soooo much more reliable.  Because, you know, because...Windows!


Edited by richsadams - 10/1/13 at 2:03am
post #110 of 162
Yikes. My wife and I flew Delta regularly (about six intercontinental trips per year) because they took over the route of preferred airline and we had little other option.

It was fine in some ways, but I can't tell you how many times we got the blue screen of death on the back-of-seat movie screen... only to have to watch the verbose MS-DOS reboot sequence when we asked for assistance (often without that being enough of a fix, because often it required a full reboot of every screen on the plane to make the system work again).

If only, I can't count the number of times I said, they would just drive the movie system with OS X instead of Windows. On our current frequent airline, US Air, they use Linux. That seems to work better than Windows. Still, can't help but think OS X would be easier for the non IT types on the plane who have to administer to the system in transit.

And now this... Windows in the cockpit. It literally makes me more nervous to fly on a Delta plane, if that's the equipment they're using (and that the management thinks it's the best equipment to provide).

P.S. One hopes, of course, that no matter what the tablet device in the front of the plane... that they're "powering off all electronic devices during landing and takeoff"... right?
post #111 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumergo View Post
 

Sigh.

All right already you guys, I got it!  Everyone makes a typing mistake sometimes.  Quit the ad hominem attacks and relax a little, we're all grown-ups here aren't we?

;-)

 

On behalf of all normally adjusted forum readers, Sumergo, ye are forgiven. Quite a bit of over the top vitriol in those responses to your post. Would love to see a willing return to civility, even online.

post #112 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post
 

Thank you for the, I suppose, first-hand information.

 

Wish I could go into more details but Delta has *extremely* restrictive rules that guide social media interactions.  Were one to write a comment that makes the company look bad or even just questions company policy, it's grounds for termination.

 

I can say that the company pays a PR firm to troll the web for all mentions of Delta and airline news and report back on the daily press.  It's highly likely that this AppleInsider story was linked to.  Right now, the teams for leadership, marketing, and corporate communications are getting an email with snippet summaries of yesterday, so please blast away*.

 

*But it will fall on deaf ears.  If Delta executives read reports, they wouldn't have ignored their own internal advice to go Apple all the way.  ; )

post #113 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

But that's exactly what everyone said was so great about Windows during the 90s: commodity hardware! Cheap parts! Vendor drivers!
Now it's all about the advantages of Apple-style vertical integration between hardware and software.
Hmmpf. And there you are, giving Microsoft credit for finally doing what Apple has been doing since 1984. 1oyvey.gif  

It's even more hypocritical than that. While saying how great it is that Microsoft provides the hardware and software together, they're still lambasting Apple for doing the same thing. Apparently, it's an evil closed system when Apple does it, but it's a marvel of efficiency and reliability when Microsoft does it.
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post #114 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post
 

 

I like that idea! I would definitely tune into the finale, if that were to happen.:lol: 

 

With the way that the Surface tablets are selling (huge disastrous flop), you'd almost think that they were already under an impenetrable dome.

 

The dome was actually the reality distortion field created by such a massive concentration of Surface devices.

post #115 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post
 

Keep in mind people M$ keeps lots of IT folks in a job, in Indian that is. We all know IT has always hated Apple since it just works and does not need masses of cheap labor unable to answer your questions when things do not work.

 

Face it M$ products are a job program for countries like Indian.

 

Where is the country "Indian"??

post #116 of 162
"Where are the f%#&ing Control+alt+delete keys on this hunk of crap?"
post #117 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 

 

But that's exactly what everyone said was so great about Windows during the 90s: commodity hardware! Cheap parts! Vendor drivers!

Now it's all about the advantages of Apple-style vertical integration between hardware and software.

Hmmpf. And there you are, giving Microsoft credit for finally doing what Apple has been doing since 1984. :no: 

 

Isn't it obvious that's what MS has been trying to do since the original surface? Haven't you heard of their new "devices and services" mantra?

post #118 of 162
"We fought hard for iPad," a pilot working for the airline told AppleInsider.

Its possible *this* pilot felt strongly about using iPads instead of Surfaces but I doubt most pilots even care. If it works whats the issue? If the IT folks decide its a better solution because it fits their Microsoft centric ecosystem then deal with it. This specific use case is particularly locked down with only one or two apps are installed - there's no real advantage of using iPads instead. With Surfaces you'll get the benefits of proper device management for thousands of users. That's significant.
post #119 of 162

Standard corp. IT stupidity. Consider it an indicator of a company in decline. I can relate. Our company is moving headlong into the IT dept.'s "all Windows utopia" wet dream, while our competitors are embracing iDevices, Android stuff (whatever), Linux, and other modern technologies. The insanity attitude is starting to show in the long term viability dept.

post #120 of 162
It's a rather high-risk, high-visibility announcement.

Surface 2 has only just launched so there hasn't been any trial. And no-one knows for sure if it will be certified by FAA, or how long that will take. If it fails, Delta will be looking very stupid.

Even if the Delta folks wanted to do SUrface 2, it would have been prudent to do some testing first. But I bet that Microsoft pushed them *very* hard for the announcement to be made now, to help with Surface rollout.

It would not surprise me to find that the devices are free and that Microsoft writes off the cost as marketing expense. It would be a drop in the bucket compared to the write-off they just took on the original models.
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