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Apple appeals verdict, punishment in e-book antitrust case

post #1 of 82
Thread Starter 
Apple on Thursday formally notified the court that they will appeal the guilty verdict and resulting injunctions handed down in July's e-book antitrust ruling.

Apple files notice of appeal


Apple's fight against the Department of Justice will shift into the hands of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals as Cupertino's lead attorney, Orin Snyder, filed an official notice of appeal Thursday on behalf of the iPhone maker. Snyder previously indicated the company's plans to appeal in an August letter to Judge Denise Cote.

The notice comes nearly three months after Apple was found guilty of conspiring with major publishers to raise e-book prices and just one day before an injunction handed down as a result of the verdict was set to go into effect. The injunction would force Apple to stagger contract renegotiations with publishers and bring on an external compliance monitor, among other punishments.

"Notice is hereby given that Defendant Apple Inc. (?Apple?) appeals to the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit from the Plaintiff United States? Final Judgment," Snyder wrote, "including the injunction the Court entered against Apple."

Apple is not required to submit its formal arguments for the appeal until early 2014, according to GigaOm.

On Friday, publisher Simon & Schuster filed a separate notice of appeal, though the CBS subsidiary only intends to fight the injunction due to its effect on the company's ability to renegotiate its contracts with Apple. Simon & Schuster settled with the Department of Justice in 2012.
post #2 of 82

Just move on - it is what it is - and move forward! 

post #3 of 82
Excellent, and doing it by the book!
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post #4 of 82
Good grief! I thought this was finally over. Let it go already!
post #5 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post

Just move on - it is what it is - and move forward! 
It's not that simple, unfortunately. There is the very substantial ideological issue that has a meaningful impact on how Apple conducts negotiations. The settlement issues are more minor and don't have a real impact on Apple, but the precedent this sets is simply not acceptable to them.
post #6 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple was found guilty of conspiring with major publishers to raise e-book prices

Meanwhile in France, the government raises Amazon's overall book prices to encourage competition:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/french-mps-bill-amazon-discount-books

"Since 1981 French law has fixed book-prices so that readers pay the same whether they buy online, from a big high street chain, or from a small bookseller. Extensive discounting is banned.

The law, which applies to all online booksellers, does allow for a small amount of discounting – as long as it is no more than 5%. Small booksellers argue they cannot compete with Amazon because it provides free postage and free fast delivery deals on top of 5% discount."

So if Apple can't compete with Amazon because their prices are too low to make a viable business out of it and takes steps to keep the business healthy, they are punished. In France, it's the law to fix the prices.

The problem is, they're both right. If retailers collude with suppliers to keep prices high then it costs consumers more and free market competition can't do anything about it. If big retailers use their infrastructure to price things so cheaply that smaller businesses can't compete with them, they'll drive them out of business very easily and people will lose jobs.

Implementing laws one way or the other and punishing selectively isn't the right thing to do but they can't keep the prices low enough to avoid harming consumers and high enough to encourage competition at the same time.
post #7 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post




"Since 1981 French law has fixed book-prices so <...>

 

 

 

Thank you, Marvin, but with this formulation the US reader will provably be confirmed in his view that France is a communist country !

 

The price is not fixed by law (or the government) ! It is fixed by the publisher, but is unique, this is what the law says.

 

The 1981 law has been recently reinforced in the sense that Amazon can no longer offer for free the delivery of "physical" books, which was Amazon tactic to circumvent the law.

 

The US reader also has to know that one of the reasons why Amazon could do this is that it supported in France a lower tax scheme than the other "normal" (what you call "brick and mortar", I believe) distributors ... (it still does, by the way, because changing this would require a decision at European level)


Edited by Hydrogen - 10/4/13 at 12:48pm

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post #8 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

Good grief! I thought this was finally over. Let it go already!

 

Giving Amazon a monopoly on book pricing where they sell the books below cost just to sell their Kindles is not a fair judgement. The authors are getting screwed and so is Amazon's competition. The Justice Department seems to feel an Amazon ebook store monopoly is the only solution. I applaud Apple to not just "let it go already"

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post #9 of 82
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post
Just move on - it is what it is - and move forward! 

 

 

How about no, we don’t let the truth be covered up and innocents be punished, okay?

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #10 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

 

How about no, we don’t let the truth be covered up and innocents be punished, okay?

 

 

For once I agree with you, the truth should come out and the innocent book buyers that had book prices jump up overnight due to Apple's shenanigans shouldn't be punished and should get their money back!

post #11 of 82
I heard Amazon just donated to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals.
post #12 of 82

HOW about YES and let this massive corporation stop pretending its greedy for its shareholders and just move forward - i would respect a company that said "we don't agree but in the interest of progress we will move forward"...

 

Unless you are appealing the damage - but they are appealing both the verdict too - LET THE VERDICT STAND AND MOVE ON! 

post #13 of 82
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post
HOW about YES and let this massive corporation stop pretending its greedy for its shareholders and just move forward - i would respect a company that said "we don't agree but in the interest of progress we will move forward"...

 

Unless you are appealing the damage - but they are appealing both the verdict too - LET THE VERDICT STAND AND MOVE ON! 

 

How about no, we get the truth to come out in court and no, we stop the FUD on forums.

 

I can do this all year. Stop lying.

 

Apple being a “massive corporation” is meaningless. Apple doesn’t really care about its shareholders any more than it has to. They care, however, about Amazon getting away with what Apple was WRONGFULLY accused of doing.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #14 of 82
Amazing how people believe corporations are honest lol

They got caught they are not the first or will they be the last.

I love my iPad and macs don't get me wrong...

But Apple is about making money pure and simple.

They are the same as Exxon, Pepsi and every other share holders company - profit profit and sometimes the ethical lines get blurred.

I work as a deposition videographer and this is not my first time seeing this with apple or every other company. Been doing this for over 17 years.

So if you want to believe there were honest and no evil exists in any man behind the executive throne then by all means go ahead.

That's your choice.

They just look foolish trying to appeal a Verdict then being bigger and moving on.
post #15 of 82
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post
Amazing how people believe corporations are honest lol


Yeah, it’s amazing that you think Amazon isn’t guilty of this.

 
They got caught…

 

Doing nothing wrong.

 
I love my iPad and macs don’t get me wrong... But

 

Are you even trying anymore?

 
 Apple is about making money pure and simple. 
 

Thanks for intimating that you know nothing about what Apple is. Don’t comment on Apple again.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #16 of 82
Ah dude maybe u did not see what I wrote all corporations!!! That includes amazon... Amazon is a corporation too money before principals.


Apple is guilty plain and simple.

Next!
post #17 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanadaV2 View Post
 

 

Giving Amazon a monopoly on book pricing where they sell the books below cost just to sell their Kindles is not a fair judgement. The authors are getting screwed and so is Amazon's competition. The Justice Department seems to feel an Amazon ebook store monopoly is the only solution. I applaud Apple to not just "let it go already"

 

How does Amazon "have a monopoly"?

post #18 of 82
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post
Apple is guilty plain and simple.

 

Of. 

 

What.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #19 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

How does Amazon "have a monopoly"?

90% market share prior to Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post

Apple is guilty there I said apple again sorry to insult your god.

And there's another troll meme.
post #20 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post

Apple is guilty plain and simple.

Next!

 

Samsung is guilty plain and simple. They should just pay Apple the $1 billion plus fine they owe and move on.

 

Next!

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post #21 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


90% market share prior to Apple.

 

So? Why does it matter that they had a high market share prior to a serious competitor entering the market?

 

How long can any business sell something below cost?

post #22 of 82
Exactly - everyone proven guilty should pay and Samsung is just pathetic there - perhaps the worst!
post #23 of 82

BTW, where has KD gone? I was over at Groklaw to see what they said about the Samsung/Nokia/Apple case regarding Samsung showing its execs "attorney eyes only" documents only to find nothing is new over there. I guess PJ really is going to abandon Groklaw over the fake excuse of NSA spying on e-mails.

 

While I was there I remembered our resident "expert on everything" and realized he hasn't posted in some while. Perhaps some of these newbie accounts should take the hint as well.

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post #24 of 82
Dude read the verdict and then u will see what they are guilty of or perhaps they are appealing a innocent conviction and while you are at it request that Samsung pay their dues too for there guilt.

And if amazon is brought up on charges too then let them pay for any proven crimes!

Simple law and order money and greed. Stop pretending apple is wholesome.
post #25 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post

Ah dude maybe u did not see what I wrote all corporations!!! That includes amazon... Amazon is a corporation too money before principals.


Apple is guilty plain and simple.

Next!

 

Apple has every right to appeal under law.

 

Thats the way it is, accept it and move on.

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post #26 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Apple has every right to appeal under law.

Especially when the judge so clearly prejudged the case - and made some bizarre rulings.
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post #27 of 82
Originally Posted by holmstockd View Post
everyone proven guilty

 

Of. 

 

What.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #28 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Especially when the judge so clearly prejudged the case - and made some bizarre rulings.

 

Yeah, nothing like making a statement that "Apple is likely guilty" before the trial even starts.

 

And if that wasn't enough, making demands of Apple that go far beyond the scope of the case (like trying to force Apple to allow Apps to link to outside stores without paying Apple their 30% cut). Even funnier is the settlement the DOJ ended up proposing was far softer than what the judge proposed. IMO she has more than a little bias.

 

EDITED: Mixed them up. It was the DOJ who asked for strict terms and the judge who scaled them back.


Edited by EricTheHalfBee - 10/4/13 at 3:59pm

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post #29 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post
(like trying to force Apple to allow Apps to link to outside stores without paying Apple their 30% cut)

 

There's nothing quite so ironic (or hypocritcal) as someone condemning bias and so blatantly demonstrate their own in the process.

post #30 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post
 

BTW, where has KD gone?

 

He was recently fired by Samsung after his last bullshit campaign came in under quota.

 

;)

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post #31 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post
 

 

There's nothing quite so ironic (or hypocritcal) as someone condemning bias and so blatantly demonstrate their own in the process.

 

I'm biased? Please show me where anything I said was biased.

 

Although I did get two facts reversed, that doesn't change the fact Denise Cote seems to have "pre-judged" the case. And she apparently has a history of this.

 

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/08/14/apple-ebook-judge-cote-2/

 

Meanwhile you whine about Apple appealing and they should "let it go" when it's Apple's right to appeal. Unless you think the US should change laws to prevent anyone from ever appealing a decision and that whatever a court/judge decides should be final and written in stone.

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post #32 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post
 

 

He was recently fired by Samsung after his last bullshit campaign came in under quota.

 

;)

 

Too bad. I was hoping to have a touchscreen debate with him after his claims to have been working in the industry for almost 20 years. I can't count how many times I tried to get him to prove his knowledge and experience in this industry to no avail. He probably never expected another AI member to also have 20+ years in touchscreen development (the first system I coded for was back in 1985).

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post #33 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post
 

 

I'm biased? Please show me where anything I said was biased.

 

In asserting that Apple somehow deserves a 30% cut of everything, even when they don't add any value.

post #34 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post
 

 

In asserting that Apple somehow deserves a 30% cut of everything, even when they don't add any value.

 

Those are the terms of Apple's store, don't like them, sell somewhere else.

 

It's a free country.

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post #35 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post
 

Too bad. I was hoping to have a touchscreen debate with him after his claims to have been working in the industry for almost 20 years.

 

If I remember rightly, one of the last points he was attempting to convince everybody of was that Apple was unlikely to be able to fit a fingerprint sensor inside the home button that would do the job of the current button yet still remain responsive when detecting fingerprints.

 

Nothing like ending on a big fail, huh?

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post #36 of 82
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

In asserting that Apple somehow deserves a 30% cut of everything

 

Guess you missed the part where it’s Apple’s store, hosted on Apple’s servers, and available for Apple’s devices.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #37 of 82

Apple does indeed seem guilty of:

 

a) entering a business as a vertical player with the intent of making money

b) creating competition that forced Amazon to stop "Price Dumping" of e-books

c) assisting in ending the emerging practice of releasing e-books well after hard back releases

 

Tragically, the basis of Apple's legal guilt is simply that they were considered -- out of the gate -- a horizontal player -- in contraction to the entire history of anti-trust law in the United States (as I understand it).

 

I hope Apple wins this appeal...

post #38 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrogen View Post

The price is not fixed by law (or the government) ! It is fixed by the publisher, but is unique, this is what the law says.

Ok but this is the same with Apple though. It was the publishers setting the prices by shifting to the agency model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lang_Law

"Lang Law is the informal name given to French law number 81-766, from 10 August 1981, relating to book prices. The law establishes a fixed price for books sold in France, limiting price discounts on them. The law is named after Jack Lang, the French Minister of Culture at the time.

The Lang Law works as follows:
The publisher decides on a price for its book and prints it on the back
Booksellers are not allowed to sell a book for a discount of more than 5% below the publisher's price."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Book_Agreement

"The Net Book Agreement (NBA) was a British fixed book price agreement between publishers and booksellers which set the prices at which books were to be sold to the public.

It came into effect on 1 January 1900 and involved retailers selling books at agreed prices. Any bookseller who sold a book at less than the agreed price would no longer be supplied by the publisher in question."

Amazon used the wholesale model and publishers didn't want this:

http://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2013/07/11/a-disastrous-week-for-publishers-authors-and-readers/

So if Apple changes the system so that publishers set the prices, they are punished for it. If the government does it, that's ok.

The main issue I suppose is the act of conspiring with multiple publishers to all do the same thing together but it's not like they agreed on prices together, they just agreed to change business models.
post #39 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWTHeckman View Post

Quote:
(like trying to force Apple to allow Apps to link to outside stores without paying Apple their 30% cut)

There's nothing quite so ironic (or hypocritcal) as someone condemning bias and so blatantly demonstrate their own in the process.

When a federal court judge is biased, it deserves condemnation. There is no requirement for impartiality for forum posters. The post you quoted is not ironic or hypocritical.
post #40 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Excellent, and doing it by the book!

Yes, you have to do it by the book, especially if it's the cooking…

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