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Apple draws criticism after pulling Chinese anti-censorship app - Page 3

post #81 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 

These activists are very selfish.  Did they try to make an Android version of the app?  The iPhone is only #7 in China.  The number 1 to number 6 smartphones in China are all running Androids.  Why would Apple be utilized by these people?  Personally I don't think these activists are good for China.  And this is the reason they are banned.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post
 

 

Here we go: another one of the bloggers/internet posters paid by the Chinese government to spread their views and dilute the public opinion. Remember the recent micro-blogging disaster, when "people" were outraged at news before the news actually broke, because they were paid to post pro-government opinions and didn't bother to check if the news had actually happened already?

 

Who cares what's good for China (read: the Chinese government and it's cronies)? What matters is what's good for the liberty of the Chinese people and the people who are suppressed by the Chinese government, like the autonomous Tibet.

 

Yes, these activists are "selfish", because the Chinese government is completely "selfless"... Hahahah!

Everyone programs on whatever platform they are comfortable with. I wouldn't program for Windows unless threatened with certain death or being paid at least ten times the going rate, because I hate the API, the tools, etc. If these people are OS X/iOS users, they will not program for Android regardless of how many users of Android there are, because there are enough Android programmers to make an equivalent piece of software for that platform.

Regardless what your political point of view is, your activism will always be applied where your field of competence is.

 

Your rhetoric is typical of American anti-China propaganda for the last several hundred years.  The Chinese cultural values are traditionally disciplinary.  This is not originated from communism.  This Chinese cultural value is one of the reasons US Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act around 1870 when the word communism does not even exist.  

 

 

 

You try to shift the argument by not quoting what I wrote my reply to. I fixed that issue, by including again the section of your original post that I was referring to.

 

So let's look at what you wrote:

 

"These activists are very selfish." 

 

What activists? These are programmers who write software to prevent government snooping. In any reasonable country that's legal. I can encrypt and bypass NSA snooping as much as I want, while they try to break whatever mechanisms I use to protect my privacy. It's a cat and mouse game and even that is very much so stretching the US constitution and human rights. To outlaw communication that's not subject to government intrusion is totalitarian. So then you have the audacity to write this:

 

"I don't think you know the value of freedom of speech."

 

Now, let's continue with your original text:

 

"Did they try to make an Android version of the app?  The iPhone is only #7 in China.  The number 1 to number 6 smartphones in China are all running Androids.  Why would Apple be utilized by these people?"

 

Why in hell should they write software for a platform they don't use and don't care for? It's like saying: "How dare they swim in warm water, why don't these selfish people go bathing in the Arctic Ocean!" I can tell you why: Because obviously, they are not masochists.

They write the software they have fun writing for, and the people who want to buy it buy it. That's called free market economy. And the government should keep its dirty paws out of it.

 

Then you continue:

 

"Personally I don't think these activists are good for China.  And this is the reason they are banned."

 

Exactly how do they harm China? What they do harm is the absolute power and control of a thin elite of princelings at the very top, you know the hundred or so billionaire-communists running China with an iron fist in velvet gloves. (Note the contradiction in terms: billionaire communist, but they do exist...) So what you're saying, the reason these programmers, which you unilaterally declare to be "activists" have the potential to disturb the absolute control and power of a ruling elite by being able to read what the rest of the world writes without government censorship or posting their opinion about what's going on in China without having to fear direct retribution for themselves and their families. And you have the galls to write:

 

"I don't think you know the value of freedom of speech."

 

Quote:

I don't think you know the value of freedom of speech.  You think American values are great and can not be challenged.  Yet any one try to raise facts that are different from the US media has been brainwah you for the last fifty years, you imagined that they are being paid by the Chinese government to do so.  

 

I know the value of freedom of speech well enough to know that freedom of speech is under attack everywhere, including the USA, one just needs to witness the mainstream media witch hunt against Ed Snowden to know where the wind is blowing from. Maybe that's why the US and China get along so well, because the ruling elites are fed up with an uncomfortable, independent and educated middle class, which is why the middle class and a broad education base needs to be destroyed at any price. The goal is to have qualified, but uneducated cheap labor.

 

American values *were* great, i.e. the values of the founding fathers. The values on display in the US these days suck.

 

As far as "raising facts that are different": there are facts and then there are lies. There is no such thing as "different facts".

 

Why do you religion in China can not be wrong?  Especially to those Tibetans that burn themselves?  Can you say that these things has never happened in US?  Do you want me to teach you the US history about a religious sect in US that killed over of the followers because a US representative is accusing their leader?  I think Jesus once said when you want to throw a stone first think if you are innocent by yourself.  

 

I'm agnostic. I don't care about religion. But international law has long upheld the principle of the right of self determination of people. If Tibetans don't want to be ruled by Chinese, they have the right to be their own country. Period. The Han can't just simply declare them to be their subjects just because there are valuable mineral deposits somewhere in the mountains.

 

Also, there's a massive difference between monks that burn *themselves* in protest, and some sect that kills *others*.

 

Further, I'm not a representative nor a defender of the US government. The US needs to be accused of plenty of war crimes, starting with Dresden in WWII, continuing with the overthrow of democratically elected governments in South America and most recently with conducting an illegal war in Iraq. BUT: one party's wrong doesn't excuse another party's wrong.

 

I will point the finger and accuse anything, anyone that I notice violating basic human rights and international law.

 

Anyone who defends a government plainly in violation of international law and of human rights is either a fool or a paid agent of that government. You can take your pick which of these two you want to be called. I thought that considering you a paid agent is less insulting to your intelligence.

post #82 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrance View Post

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

Everyone has the choice to play the game or to excuse themselves from participating...

post #83 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post


Very easy answer: do what Amazon does: allow any user to shop in any of Amazon's national stores with a single user ID.
That way they can abide by the law and remove it from the Chinese AppStore, but people in China simply switch store and buy the app e.g. in the US store.
The necessity to have a different AppleID for each store is brain-dead in a mobile, globalized economy anyway:

 

I don't have a problem with Apple pulling the app because it is against the law in a particular country. If I open a bricks and mortar store in Xizhimen in Beijing and sell illegal goods (say, "Tank Man" t-shirts?) I expect I'll get shut down pretty quickly.

 

However, I do agree with your point about there needing to be a more globalised iTunes store (apps, music, whatever). It's extremely frustrating that I can't buy apps on iTunes Japan to load onto my iPhone without them being wiped when I sync.

"We're Apple. We don't wear suits. We don't even own suits."
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post #84 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post


You guys are way off.
post #85 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post
 

 

I don't have a problem with Apple pulling the app because it is against the law in a particular country. If I open a bricks and mortar store in Xizhimen in Beijing and sell illegal goods (say, "Tank Man" t-shirts?) I expect I'll get shut down pretty quickly.

 

However, I do agree with your point about there needing to be a more globalised iTunes store (apps, music, whatever). It's extremely frustrating that I can't buy apps on iTunes Japan to load onto my iPhone without them being wiped when I sync.

 

 

I downloaded Open Door and have purchased the 30-day ad-free in-app purchase. I'm not sure how much use I'll get from this app, but at the least I'll give it some support, however little that may be.

"We're Apple. We don't wear suits. We don't even own suits."
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post #86 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post
 

 

You try to shift the argument by not quoting what I wrote my reply to. I fixed that issue, by including again the section of your original post that I was referring to.

 

So let's look at what you wrote:

 

"These activists are very selfish." 

 

What activists? These are programmers who write software to prevent government snooping. In any reasonable country that's legal. I can encrypt and bypass NSA snooping as much as I want, while they try to break whatever mechanisms I use to protect my privacy. It's a cat and mouse game and even that is very much so stretching the US constitution and human rights. To outlaw communication that's not subject to government intrusion is totalitarian. So then you have the audacity to write this:

 

"I don't think you know the value of freedom of speech."

 

Now, let's continue with your original text:

 

"Did they try to make an Android version of the app?  The iPhone is only #7 in China.  The number 1 to number 6 smartphones in China are all running Androids.  Why would Apple be utilized by these people?"

 

Why in hell should they write software for a platform they don't use and don't care for? It's like saying: "How dare they swim in warm water, why don't these selfish people go bathing in the Arctic Ocean!" I can tell you why: Because obviously, they are not masochists.

They write the software they have fun writing for, and the people who want to buy it buy it. That's called free market economy. And the government should keep its dirty paws out of it.

 

Then you continue:

 

"Personally I don't think these activists are good for China.  And this is the reason they are banned."

 

Exactly how do they harm China? What they do harm is the absolute power and control of a thin elite of princelings at the very top, you know the hundred or so billionaire-communists running China with an iron fist in velvet gloves. (Note the contradiction in terms: billionaire communist, but they do exist...) So what you're saying, the reason these programmers, which you unilaterally declare to be "activists" have the potential to disturb the absolute control and power of a ruling elite by being able to read what the rest of the world writes without government censorship or posting their opinion about what's going on in China without having to fear direct retribution for themselves and their families. And you have the galls to write:

 

"I don't think you know the value of freedom of speech."

 

 

I know the value of freedom of speech well enough to know that freedom of speech is under attack everywhere, including the USA, one just needs to witness the mainstream media witch hunt against Ed Snowden to know where the wind is blowing from. Maybe that's why the US and China get along so well, because the ruling elites are fed up with an uncomfortable, independent and educated middle class, which is why the middle class and a broad education base needs to be destroyed at any price. The goal is to have qualified, but uneducated cheap labor.

 

American values *were* great, i.e. the values of the founding fathers. The values on display in the US these days suck.

 

As far as "raising facts that are different": there are facts and then there are lies. There is no such thing as "different facts".

 

 

I'm agnostic. I don't care about religion. But international law has long upheld the principle of the right of self determination of people. If Tibetans don't want to be ruled by Chinese, they have the right to be their own country. Period. The Han can't just simply declare them to be their subjects just because there are valuable mineral deposits somewhere in the mountains.

 

Also, there's a massive difference between monks that burn *themselves* in protest, and some sect that kills *others*.

 

Further, I'm not a representative nor a defender of the US government. The US needs to be accused of plenty of war crimes, starting with Dresden in WWII, continuing with the overthrow of democratically elected governments in South America and most recently with conducting an illegal war in Iraq. BUT: one party's wrong doesn't excuse another party's wrong.

 

I will point the finger and accuse anything, anyone that I notice violating basic human rights and international law.

 

Anyone who defends a government plainly in violation of international law and of human rights is either a fool or a paid agent of that government. You can take your pick which of these two you want to be called. I thought that considering you a paid agent is less insulting to your intelligence.

 

Are you one of the programmers?  Or do you know them well?  How do you know they only program for iOS?  Since Android platform is much bigger than iOS now, I think most programmers will program for both.  

 

Do you know Relativity?  Do you know why NSA snoop on everybody?  Have you every realized the reason NSA snooped on us are equally valid for any government on earth?  So why NSA does it?  I think it is for the safety of Americans.  So the most powerful and prosperous nation have safety concerns, why can't any other government has this concern?  I know you anti-China will use the logic that Chinese government do this only for the communists.  But this is a very narrow logic.  

 

Your understanding of Tibet is also very naive.  Tibetan separatists want independence from China.  This is why they are illegal.  Similar situation if happened in US will be similarly dealt with.  You can not simply use human rights to divert the real issue.  

post #87 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke View Post
 

You'd think the Chinese government would just take one look at the US, see how well it works politically and immediately adopt its values. It's astonishing that they've chosen to go their own way.

 

You forgot the sarcasm tag ;)

post #88 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress0660 View Post
 

I'm beginning to think the Chinese are a bunch of baby whiners. Yes, Apple should just continue to allow law breaking in China. 

 

I'm beginning that there will always be people too dumb to hide their racist attitudes.

post #89 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 

Your understanding of Tibet is also very naive.  Tibetan separatists want independence from China.  This is why they are illegal.  Similar situation if happened in US will be similarly dealt with.  You can not simply use human rights to divert the real issue.  

 

Let's see how you like this slightly modified version of what you say:

 

"Your understanding of China is also very naive. Chinese separatists want independence from Japan. This is why they are illegal."

 

Tibet is as much Chinese if the Tibetans don't want to be Chinese as China is Japanese if the Chinese don't want to be Japanese.

 

If memory serves me right, the Chinese weren't too happy when they were made part of the Japanese Empire before WWII.

 

So why should the Tibetans be happy to be annexed by China?

 

The world wars were fought in the name of the right of people to self determine by whom they are governed. Otherwise, maybe, the British should never have returned Hong-Kong, the Japanese should still be running Shanghai, etc. By the same token, Taiwan has the right to be independent, if the population there so desires to be independent. How this should work was clearly and peacefully demonstrated when Czechosolvakia split up into the Czech and Slovak republics. It was demonstrated clearly, and a lot less peacefully, when Yugoslavia split up into Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Bosnia.

 

The real issue is, that Tibet isn't China. It has a different culture, different language, different writing system, and most importantly, the Tibetans want to be left alone.

 

The US are not the yardstick to measure by, as I pointed out before, they committed plenty of war crimes, violated treaties made with native Americans, annexed the Kingdom of Hawaii under ludicrous pretexts, etc. No crime can be excused by the fact that someone else committed a crime, too. What happens in Tibet is a crime, and no amount of Chinese propaganda will change that fact.

 

Quote:

Are you one of the programmers?  Or do you know them well?  How do you know they only program for iOS?  Since Android platform is much bigger than iOS now, I think most programmers will program for both.  

 

 

I don't need to know the programers when the facts tell the story. It's certainly less of a stretch to say they only work on iOS given that there's no Android version of the app, than to call them "lazy, selfish activists" because they develop for iOS instead of Android, and then claim this has anything to do with discipline.

 

Windows is also the much bigger platform than OS X, and yet there are plenty of OS X only developers. People develop on the platform they like to use, where the work is fun. Someone who likes ObjC, Xcode, etc. will not just start writing Android apps, just because there are more low-end Android phones sold in a totally fragmented market place with most phones running a version of Android that's a few years behind the curve. So, no, most programmers will not program for both. Companies who offer apps for both platforms generally have two separate teams or outsource the app development to companies that specialize in one platform or the other, unless the app is very trivial.

 

Quote:
Do you know Relativity?  Do you know why NSA snoop on everybody?  Have you every realized the reason NSA snooped on us are equally valid for any government on earth?  So why NSA does it?  I think it is for the safety of Americans.  So the most powerful and prosperous nation have safety concerns, why can't any other government has this concern?  I know you anti-China will use the logic that Chinese government do this only for the communists.  But this is a very narrow logic.

 

Not sure what Einstein has to do with anything. The NSA snoops because of paranoia and because politicians always want more power than they have. Americans are not safer, if anything they are less safe, because a government that's too powerful is a much bigger danger than terrorists. The number of people who die of terrorist attacks is negligible, e.g. just compared to the number of drunk driving victims (more than 15'000 each year in the US alone), or the people who die of unhealthy eating habits (diabetes, cardio-vascular diseases). So if politicians want to save valuable American lives, they have cheaper and more effective ways of doing so without fighting an expensive "war on terror" that only limits civil liberties and enriches the military industrial complex.

Powerful and prosperous nations don't have safety concerns, they have power concerns. They pretend to have safety concerns to get the population to go along with laws that run counter to the interests of that population.

 

I'm not anti-China, I'm anti totalitarian states, no matter what flag is associated with such states. It should raise red flags (pun intended) when any government uses fear and patriotism to sell policies that increase government power and disempower the people.

 

The politicians in the US, and all populations all over the world, would do good to remember these phrases:

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin FranklinHistorical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)

 

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

 

Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775

 

 

 

post #90 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post
 

 

Didn't Google pull out of China for this reason?

 

Google pulled out of China because they couldn't get a foothold in the local search traffic where Baidu still leads considerably. Their office there also posed a security problem and was blamed for the widespread infiltration of Chinese gmail accounts in mid 2011. Google's share price also suffered each time Baidu was reported to have strengthened their lead against Google. (Such as losing around 1% each time this happened.) It's argued that Android is Google's strategy to capture as much emerging market search traffic as possible.

 

The censorship issue was merely grandstanding to save face and was only active for a short amount of time as some sort of retaliation against the Chinese. It wasn't long before censored results were reenabled with a small note on the site advising so vaguely, that notice was later removed despite having moved to a more West-friendly HK based location. In short Google needs China more than China needs Google. (Or risk losing out on this massive emerging market.)

 

I don't blame companies toeing the line of local laws to do business in those countries, indeed offering any services at all may be an improvement for the local population - however playing deceitful PR games to save face "back home" is two-faced behaviour, and certainly no foundation to have respect for the company. I'd similarly appreciate if foreign companies obeyed the spirit of local laws, and didn't offshore intellectual property and business transactions to avoid taxation with local businesses.

post #91 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post
 

 

Let's see how you like this slightly modified version of what you say:

 

"Your understanding of China is also very naive. Chinese separatists want independence from Japan. This is why they are illegal."

 

Tibet is as much Chinese if the Tibetans don't want to be Chinese as China is Japanese if the Chinese don't want to be Japanese.

 

If memory serves me right, the Chinese weren't too happy when they were made part of the Japanese Empire before WWII.

 

So why should the Tibetans be happy to be annexed by China?

 

The world wars were fought in the name of the right of people to self determine by whom they are governed. Otherwise, maybe, the British should never have returned Hong-Kong, the Japanese should still be running Shanghai, etc. By the same token, Taiwan has the right to be independent, if the population there so desires to be independent. How this should work was clearly and peacefully demonstrated when Czechosolvakia split up into the Czech and Slovak republics. It was demonstrated clearly, and a lot less peacefully, when Yugoslavia split up into Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Bosnia.

 

The real issue is, that Tibet isn't China. It has a different culture, different language, different writing system, and most importantly, the Tibetans want to be left alone.

 

The US are not the yardstick to measure by, as I pointed out before, they committed plenty of war crimes, violated treaties made with native Americans, annexed the Kingdom of Hawaii under ludicrous pretexts, etc. No crime can be excused by the fact that someone else committed a crime, too. What happens in Tibet is a crime, and no amount of Chinese propaganda will change that fact.

 

 

I don't need to know the programers when the facts tell the story. It's certainly less of a stretch to say they only work on iOS given that there's no Android version of the app, than to call them "lazy, selfish activists" because they develop for iOS instead of Android, and then claim this has anything to do with discipline.

 

Windows is also the much bigger platform than OS X, and yet there are plenty of OS X only developers. People develop on the platform they like to use, where the work is fun. Someone who likes ObjC, Xcode, etc. will not just start writing Android apps, just because there are more low-end Android phones sold in a totally fragmented market place with most phones running a version of Android that's a few years behind the curve. So, no, most programmers will not program for both. Companies who offer apps for both platforms generally have two separate teams or outsource the app development to companies that specialize in one platform or the other, unless the app is very trivial.

 

 

Not sure what Einstein has to do with anything. The NSA snoops because of paranoia and because politicians always want more power than they have. Americans are not safer, if anything they are less safe, because a government that's too powerful is a much bigger danger than terrorists. The number of people who die of terrorist attacks is negligible, e.g. just compared to the number of drunk driving victims (more than 15'000 each year in the US alone), or the people who die of unhealthy eating habits (diabetes, cardio-vascular diseases). So if politicians want to save valuable American lives, they have cheaper and more effective ways of doing so without fighting an expensive "war on terror" that only limits civil liberties and enriches the military industrial complex.

Powerful and prosperous nations don't have safety concerns, they have power concerns. They pretend to have safety concerns to get the population to go along with laws that run counter to the interests of that population.

 

I'm not anti-China, I'm anti totalitarian states, no matter what flag is associated with such states. It should raise red flags (pun intended) when any government uses fear and patriotism to sell policies that increase government power and disempower the people.

 

The politicians in the US, and all populations all over the world, would do good to remember these phrases:

 

 

 

 

 

Are you an American?  Do you know American history?  Do you know what you said about Tibet to China relation has similar case in US? What about Alaska?  How can US annex Alaska or buy it from Russia?  You might say Alaska became a state through a public vote.  But do you know that most of the votes are from white Immigrants?  Not the native Eskimos?  Why white immigrants have the right to decide? 

 

And you don't know history too.  Japan has been conquered China.  Over thousands of years, the so-called middle kingdom has been occupied by various people.  Even Tibetans had tried as far back in Tang dynasty.  For Tibetans or even non-Tibetans to insist that Tibet has never been a part of China is anti-history.  

post #92 of 100
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post

Do you know what you said about Tibet to China relation has similar case in US? What about Alaska?  

 

Uh, no, in no way is the Alaska Purchase the same as the China-Tibet situation.

post #93 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post


You guys are way off.

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

What about dis?? Sub-tread, stuff that reminds you of the new Mac Pro?

Preamp tube shield. (http://www.cedist.com/products/P-SS9-325-BK)

post #94 of 100
No, but their Campus 2 comes to mind

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I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
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post #95 of 100
There is nothing wrong with Apple as this app is illegal in china . As for why it is illegal , it is not Apple which can judge .
post #96 of 100

Just to set the record straight on Google: they did sacrifice a substantial business by leaving China in 2010.

 

Google serves Chinese search from Hong Kong. On top of that they used to display a message for Chinese users of that site that said that certain pages are likely censored. They did drop that. But still they gave up a market share of about 30 percent in China for a maybe foolish but relatively principled stand.

 

Whatever Google is doing wrong in other areas - in this case they made a substantial sacrifice in order to not have to engage in self-censorship.

post #97 of 100

You can change your iTunes store inside device in just few steps, then download this APP and change back,

my wife we live in china, her default iTunes store is Hong Kong, as they get most western and also the free Chinese stuff she likes to read.

 

You do not need a payment method for using different store or local address details etc, this is rubbish.

 

Last point is I downloaded this app, yes I ex-pat live in China now for 4 years. And the app is crap.

I been using a VPN for my iOS / PC for over 3 years never had issues never a problem, it's never hunted down by government it is not cat and mouse, only if you use free proxy servers which are shit.

I travel to work on Metro and can just connect to facebook from my dvice over 3G, which operates faster than most broadband I experiences whilst visiting USA just two weeks ago. I know because I speedtested every place.

 

My home internet is cable, at 16meg, and yes this is acceptable by China standards, in just one year speed doubled for free.

post #98 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeybabes View Post
 

You can change your iTunes store inside device in just few steps, then download this APP and change back,

my wife we live in china, her default iTunes store is Hong Kong, as they get most western and also the free Chinese stuff she likes to read.

 

You do not need a payment method for using different store or local address details etc, this is rubbish.

 

I have iTunes Store accounts in Austria, Germany, and the US. For each one of them I had to have a payment method before being able to "purchase" anything, even free things. In Austria I bought an iTunes gift card at some store cash register, for the German account I had a friend buy one for me who lives in Germany. In both cases I was not able to use my regular US credit card as a payment method. In Austria I was eventually able to set up some other payment method, because there I actually buy stuff on occasion, so I need a payment method that works longer term.

 

If there's no need for a payment method in the China/Hong-Kong stores, then either Apple changed it's policies within the last year or so, or they have a different policy for some online stores than for others.

post #99 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_mac_lover View Post

There is nothing wrong with Apple as this app is illegal in china . As for why it is illegal , it is not Apple which can judge .

 

Any sentient being and any organization run by such has a moral obligation. Nobody can hide behind the law.

If a law is unjust, it is to be ignored and disobeyed. He who doesn't can be held accountable not just by history, but also by the courts.

There are very few huge injustices committed in this world that are not "legal" or even "mandated", but that doesn't make them less unjust, and sooner or later the hammer of justice will come down on those who collaborated or facilitated such injustices.

 

The law in question in China is clearly aimed at undermining civil liberties, mind control, suppressing dissident views, in other words, maintaining a totalitarian state at the cost of suspending basic human rights. There are worse ways of cooperating with a totalitarian state than removing an app from a store, but to pretend that Apple (or for that matter any other company that cooperates) is "doing the right thing" is a depraved point of view that shows  a total lack of a moral compass.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=RYjpRz9FOJoC&pg=PA64

post #100 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECats View Post
 

 

Google pulled out of China because they couldn't get a foothold in the local search traffic where Baidu still leads considerably. Their office there also posed a security problem and was blamed for the widespread infiltration of Chinese gmail accounts in mid 2011. Google's share price also suffered each time Baidu was reported to have strengthened their lead against Google. (Such as losing around 1% each time this happened.) It's argued that Android is Google's strategy to capture as much emerging market search traffic as possible.

 

The censorship issue was merely grandstanding to save face and was only active for a short amount of time as some sort of retaliation against the Chinese. It wasn't long before censored results were reenabled with a small note on the site advising so vaguely, that notice was later removed despite having moved to a more West-friendly HK based location. In short Google needs China more than China needs Google. (Or risk losing out on this massive emerging market.)

 

I don't blame companies toeing the line of local laws to do business in those countries, indeed offering any services at all may be an improvement for the local population - however playing deceitful PR games to save face "back home" is two-faced behaviour, and certainly no foundation to have respect for the company. I'd similarly appreciate if foreign companies obeyed the spirit of local laws, and didn't offshore intellectual property and business transactions to avoid taxation with local businesses.

 

A lot of of the stuff you are saying isn't true. Google had a 15-30% market share in January 2010 when it effectively left the Chinese market (exact statistics aren't available but that was the ranger). That's more than a foothold.

 

Google didn't re-able any censored results after January 2010. The Chinese government just blocked Google searches for certain political topics. Google displayed for years a warning to Chinese users that certain searches would be blocked.

 

From a business perspective the decision to leave China was horrible - at least in the short run. You cannot really explain it unless you know that at least one of the principals (Sergei Brin) disliked censorship based on personal experience of his family in the Soviet Union. 

 

I don't think Google is behaving more ethically than other companies in most respects and I agree that the "No Evil" slogan is mostly show - but it's hard to not acknowledge their China stance.

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