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Apple reportedly cutting iPhone 5c orders as it boosts 5s production [u] - Page 2

post #41 of 153

Are we talking about the same Wall Street Journal that wrote about Apple cutting orders for parts due to weak demand for the iPhone 5 last year? Last year, it was right before earnings as well. Of course, it turned out to be false. This is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate the price of the stock before earnings. Tim Cook then at the earnings call said you can't predict what we are doing based on a few data points from our supply chain. It is funny how lots of people on this board hate analysts in all matters except negative reports concerning the iPhone 5C perhaps because it supports their dislike for the phone. 

 

I do not get all the hate for the iPhone 5C. It is not supposed to be as great as the 5S. It, however, is a good choice for many people. It has a better radio, Facetime camera, and improved radio then last years model at a cheaper price point. The only downside is a plastic case, which just about every other phone on the planet is made from including top phones by Samsung. Apple's top selling iBooks and iMacs used to be made from plastic as well. 

post #42 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Are we talking about the same Wall Street Journal that wrote about Apple cutting orders for parts due to weak demand for the iPhone 5 last year? Last year, it was right before earnings as well. Of course, it turned out to be false. This is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate the price of the stock before earnings. Tim Cook then at the earnings call said you can't predict what we are doing based on a few data points from our supply chain. It is funny how lots of people on this board hate analysts in all matters except negative reports concerning the iPhone 5C perhaps because it supports their dislike for the phone. 

I do not get all the hate for the iPhone 5C. It is not supposed to be as great as the 5S. It, however, is a good choice for many people. It has a better radio, Facetime camera, and improved radio then last years model at a cheaper price point. The only downside is a plastic case, which just about every other phone on the planet is made from including top phones by Samsung. Apple's top selling iBooks and iMacs used to be made from plastic as well. 

Stock is up pre market. Analyst upgrade to buy too. The media is trying hard to paint a D&G picture but Wall Street doesn't seem to care.
post #43 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post
 

Apple have tried to pad their margins with the 5C in my view.  £465 is it?  

 

Lop one hundred off and you're talking for a 'year old' phone.  If they can make the 4S at £350 then Apple CAN make a £350 phone.

 

It would fly at those prices.  And take the fight to Android and still make a decent profit.

 

There just isn't enough difference to not warrant going for the extra for the 5S which is a far superior product.

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

 

Apple is not interested in Cheapskates and penny pinchers.  The iPhone is Apple's cash cow.  They cannot sacrifice margins on this product.  They can sell the iPod at cheaper margins because it is now a legacy product.  Making the 5C any cheaper would cut into Apples margins and canibalize 5S sales.

post #44 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post
 

Hey, I've got no problems about the 5C selling well. If you believe the reports it's not selling nearly as well as expected. Hence production being cut back.

 

The only issue I have is with the reasoning you offered. There's zero reason why Apple introduced what is essentially a new product line as a draw to sell the premium model. Clearly Apple thought this model would squeeze gangbusters sales from old hardware. It seems the reality is not the case. Otherwise they would have done the same thing they did last year and repackage last year's model, in the same form factor, with a fixed capacity.

 

I still submit your reasoning is flawed. Apple doesn't display its feathers as an inducement to buy another of its products instead. It wants you to buy as many of whatever it is offering as possible.

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/10/16/uk-apple-5c-idUKBRE99F08K20131016

 

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/australian-telcos-struggle-to-sell-iphone-5c-20130924-2ubc5.html

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101110056

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/10/15/apparently-apples-iphone-5c-is-a-failure-already/

 

Disappointing is a relative term but from reports it seems pretty clear that sales have not met expectations.

Your only argument appears to be to give links to articles by journalists who have never managed a major brand in their life, let alone the No. 1 premium brand in the world, who claim in their ignorance that the 5C is a "failure".

 

Some failue, when the 5C is outselling their main competitor's supposedly "best selling" Galaxy S4 ....LOL

 

If BMW, Mercedes. Audi, Porsche, Ferrari etc. found that their flagship model was oustelling their affordable model, they would be disappointed. Pull the other one....LOL

post #45 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post
 

Remember when Steve Jobs dropped the price of the original iPhone?

Not really. The original iPhone was not subsidized. You paid full price. AT&T and Apple renegotiated their contract. If you recall, the original iPhones could be activated using iTunes. It was really easy to unlock them without signing up with AT&T. The rumor is AT&T agreed to subsidize the phone, and shorten the time of exclusivity in exchange for Apple dropping the iTunes activation process and requiring all iPhones sold in the US to be activated in the store. 

post #46 of 153
I would not at all be surprised if this story is true. It was quite obvious that the relative pricing of the 5C was a mistake from the get-go. Apple had a chance to blow away the competition there, but chose not to do it.

Many of us called it on Day 1, and took grief for it.

I have no doubt that there will be a mea culpa and the pricing will be changed. Not a big deal, Apple has done it before, most famously with the original iPhone.

Btw, give journalists a bit of a break. Some of the conspiratorial comments here about the WSJ -- no, I don't work for them -- border on paranoia. They're just doing their job. Sometimes they may get wrong, but a lot of the times, they are spot on.
post #47 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Stock is up pre market. Analyst upgrade to buy too. The media is trying hard to paint a D&G picture but Wall Street doesn't seem to care.

 

 

Wall Street doesn't care today. ;) 

post #48 of 153

Actually, It does have a backbone and is just common sense. 

Example : My wife, a nurse, doesn't get the big salary needed to buy a new iPhone every two years. She is, in fact, using my 3GS with a sim only. But the lack of iOS7 support ( and slowness ) is causing the update. She will be getting the 5s as it will probably last her a couple of years longer.

 

Implying that Apple wants us to buy the 5s because of the higher price is of course correct. However, if you price the two too close together, you'll end up with quite a few unsold 5c's.

 

And that might to be the case. At least not as many sold as previously projected. If it turns out to be true.


Edited by miltenb - 10/16/13 at 6:21am
post #49 of 153

I said it before and I still maintain, it's all about the lack of colours that's 'hurting' sales of the 5C.

All Cook needs to do a next week's Apple event is announce that they're adding Space Grey and / or Piano Black colours to the iPhone 5c lineup. Boom.

post #50 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I would not at all be surprised if this story is true. It was quite obvious that the relative pricing of the 5C was a mistake from the get-go. Apple had a chance to blow away the competition there, but chose not to do it.

Many of us called it on Day 1, and took grief for it.

I have no doubt that there will be a mea culpa and the pricing will be changed. Not a big deal, Apple has done it before, most famously with the original iPhone.

Btw, give journalists a bit of a break. Some of the conspiratorial comments here about the WSJ -- no, I don't work for them -- border on paranoia. They're just doing their job. Sometimes they may get wrong, but a lot of the times, they are spot on.

 

 

Except Apple did not change the price for the original iPhone. Originally it was not subsidized. AT&T then subsidized it. Apple made the same amount of money. 

 

Having no doubt seems pretty confident concerning a topic I doubt you have access to the appropriate data. Keep in mind, it is the same Wall Street Journal who in January said iPhone 5 sales were weak due to a 50% reduction in part orders. It was way wrong. This is the same pattern. It also is not the job of the WSJ to try and figure out how a company's sales are going by trying to acquire confidential information especially when it often times does a disservice to people who actually might rely on the information. 

post #51 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I would not at all be surprised if this story is true. It was quite obvious that the relative pricing of the 5C was a mistake from the get-go. Apple had a chance to blow away the competition there, but chose not to do it.

Many of us called it on Day 1, and took grief for it.

I have no doubt that there will be a mea culpa and the pricing will be changed. Not a big deal, Apple has done it before, most famously with the original iPhone.

Btw, give journalists a bit of a break. Some of the conspiratorial comments here about the WSJ -- no, I don't work for them -- border on paranoia. They're just doing their job. Sometimes they may get wrong, but a lot of the times, they are spot on.

I was one who questioned the pricing of the 5C, but can we wait for Apple's earnings call before we start calling things a mistake?!? And no I'm not going to give the journalists a break. Why should we? Reporting supply chain rumors and trying to infer something from it isn't doing their job. Even if these rumors are accurate we don't know the reason behind them. Of course that won't stop the WSJ and others from making assumptions.
post #52 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by MazeCookie View Post
 

This is a lot of peoples argument against the 5c, but it has no backbone.

 

Nobody complained about the 4S when the 5 was around. There was a $100 difference then. If you were buying a new upgrade, it makes sense for $100 to get the latest.

 

Oh, and it was the same with the previous generation, and generation before that, and generation before that.

 

Only now people are complaining about price. Why? Because loser analysts started a rumour that it was going to be radically cheaper. They were wrong. Yet people still talk about price. Pretty ridiculous, really.

 

The only comparisons people should make are what is different. The iPhone 5c takes what would of been the iPhone 5's spot (mid tier). The iPhone 5c comes in 5 coloured plastics, it has a slightly better battery and supports many, many more 4G base bands. So Apple has upgraded the 5, for free, as it is the same price as what the 5 would of been.

 

/rant

 

BINGO!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post
 

True but the 4s had the same glass and aluminium construction, the 5c has a cheaper plastic case. It should be cheaper.

 

It is also easier to manufacture. That is the reason they went there. Think they would have been able to get 9 million in the hands of consumers in one weekend with the anodization? That was slow. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


The problem with this reasoning is simple - it doesn't explain why Apple didn't continue with the old strategy and created two models. Despite what you say the two models strategy is not the same at all - for instance the iPhone 5C will be updated as long as the 5S is with new OS releases. As the release is the same year.

Clearly apple expected higher sales from this, hence the cut in orders. Would orders have to be cut were the iPhone 5 C $200 cheaper than the 5S. Probably not.

If the high price of the 5C is driving higher than expected 5S sales apple will be happy enough for now, for Christmas and Chinese New Years. They can offer discounts in
Feb.

However unless these reports are wrong Apple miscalculated, and having too much inventory in the Channel is not a good thing.

Why did they miscalculate? That should be the question as it seems critics of the price were correct.

 

Who says they miscalculated? You? Notice these stories always come a week or so prior to their earnings report? And Tim says "don't take a report of one manufacturer and try and make connections" and Peter O can say "We order an amount up front to get pricing, and cut later"

 

So, those "stories" will come up next Wednesday night/Thursday

post #53 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

BTW, Vogue is promoting the 5C on their website:

http://www.vogue.com/vogue-daily/article/match-your-outfit-to-your-apple-iphone-5c/#1

img-iphonedressingholding_145143158633.jpg_article_gallery_slideshow_v2.jpg

iphone-dressing-1_185058739062.jpg_article_gallery_slideshow_v2.jpg

iphone-dressing-6_185104728153.jpg_article_gallery_slideshow_v2.jpg

iphone-dressing-15_185100730758.jpg_article_gallery_slideshow_v2.jpg

iphone-dressing-11_185059517108.jpg_article_gallery_slideshow_v2.jpg


Matching all your outfit to 1 colour, unless it's a wedding, is a "Fashion Don't".
Is somebody at Vogue smoking crack?
 
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post #54 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Btw, give journalists a bit of a break. Some of the conspiratorial comments here about the WSJ -- no, I don't work for them -- border on paranoia. They're just doing their job. Sometimes they may get wrong, but a lot of the times, they are spot on.

The point is no, they don't do their job. They may do their job if it is hating on Apple. Seriously, they got called out time and time again for their atrocious reports on Apple. Just because this news fit your agenda doesn't mean it's trustworthy.
post #55 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post
 

Are we talking about the same Wall Street Journal that wrote about Apple cutting orders for parts due to weak demand for the iPhone 5 last year? Last year, it was right before earnings as well. Of course, it turned out to be false. This is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate the price of the stock before earnings.

 

Actually, it was probably true that orders were cut but when that happens in January it's because of weaker demand, not weak demand. That's where WSJ got it wrong.

 

When it happens now, then that could indicate weak demand.

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post #56 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


I was one who questioned the pricing of the 5C, but can we wait for Apple's earnings call before we start calling things a mistake?!? And no I'm not going to give the journalists a break. Why should we? Reporting supply chain rumors and trying to infer something from it isn't doing their job. Even if these rumors are accurate we don't know the reason behind them. Of course that won't stop the WSJ and others from making assumptions.

 

If Apple stays true to form and doesn't break down the units sold by model number then how does the earnings call help us determine the 5c's popularity?

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post #57 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post
 

 

 

Except Apple did not change the price for the original iPhone. Originally it was not subsidized. AT&T then subsidized it. Apple made the same amount of money. 

 

Wrong.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/07/technology/07apple.html?_r=0

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post #58 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

Matching all your outfit to 1 colour, unless it's a wedding, is a "Fashion Don't".
Is somebody at Vogue smoking crack?

According to who? I think I'll trust Vogue over you when it comes to fashion.
post #59 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

Actually, it was probably true that orders were cut but when that happens in January it's because of weaker demand, not weak demand. That's where WSJ got it wrong.

 

When it happens now, then that could indicate weak demand.

Yes, it could indicate weak demand. It also could indicate efficient estimating or proper planning (yes, I appreciate alliteration), ensuring the channel is well stocked, they have the average on hand. Remember, they can build these 5c phones faster than the 5 or 5s.

post #60 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

If Apple stays true to form and doesn't break down the units sold by model number then how does the earnings call help us determine the 5c's popularity?

Apple discloses ASP's and margins. And even though Apple won't disclose sales figures no doubt Tim and Peter will get a lot of questions on the 5C. I think we'll be able to infer plenty from their comments along with ASP and margin figures.
post #61 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Apple discloses ASP's and margins. And even though Apple won't disclose sales figures no doubt Tim and Peter will get a lot of questions on the 5C. I think we'll be able to infer plenty from their comments along with ASP and margin figures.

 

I can almost guarantee you that they will say it is selling well, just as much as I can almost guarantee you that they won't say it isn't selling as well as they had hoped.

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post #62 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by starbird73 View Post
 

Yes, it could indicate weak demand. It also could indicate efficient estimating or proper planning (yes, I appreciate alliteration), ensuring the channel is well stocked, they have the average on hand. Remember, they can build these 5c phones faster than the 5 or 5s.

 

What happened to that same efficient estimating and proper planning with the 5s.

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post #63 of 153
The 5S is a higher margin product, the 5C is selling better than the 4S when the 5 was released. So overall, a two wins for Apple, with a higher margin sales mix. Not to mention the 4S is still selling as well as the 4 in eastern countries such as China and India. No one seems to notice Apple has a low-end phone too, just not in the Western world.
post #64 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I can almost guarantee you that they will say it is selling well, just as much as I can almost guarantee you that they won't say it isn't selling as well as they had hoped.

Well assuming the 5C has better margins, if its not selling well one would assume Apple will report higher than expected ASPs and lower margins. And no I don't expect Apple to say its not selling like they had hoped, but I still think we'll get some color from their comments. And if we don't then perhaps the 5C is selling within their expectations and all this fake concern by the media is just BS.
post #65 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


Except Apple did not change the price for the original iPhone. Originally it was not subsidized. AT&T then subsidized it. Apple made the same amount of money. 

A gift card ($100? $200? I forget) I got from Apple for my 'full-price' iPhone purchase says they did.

Soon thereafter, Apple discontinued the 4GB model, and cut the price of the 8GB by a couple of hundred dollars before Christmas, as I recall. I am sure you can look it up. I don't have the time.
post #66 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post
 

The question is.  How much would it cost to add one to the Touch?  If the Touch costs £199 or £250 for the low end or mid range options.

 

Would it cost £150s to add an antenna to the entry model?  Would it cost £100 to add an antenna and phone chipset to the mid range model?

 

I'm just curious.  How much do these parts cost.

 

This is what drives me nuts about the average person's analysis of what it takes to create technology: it's just the cost of the parts right?  Wrong.  To redesign a case so that it fits a larger battery, doesn't interfere with an antenna, and has a different mainboard layout takes a team of industrial designers, electrical engineers, and computer hardware engineers.  Want to guess how much those salaries are?

 
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post #67 of 153

If it is true that they are cutting orders for 5C, I am surprised that Apple misread the demand for its product. They know that they have more flexibility in price range with iPhone 5C as we have seen large retailers offering iPhone 5C at a discounted price than as advertised by Apple. It could have been marketing gamble to rake in more margins initially and when the demands subsides, lower the price to sell more units.

post #68 of 153
Originally Posted by miltenb View Post
5c is just too expensive compared to 5s.

 

Wrong.

 
Should I upgrade I’ll gladly pay $100 extra…

 

And that’s what iPhone purchasers have been doing for the past five years. Nothing new here.

 
There is a crisis going on. 

 

Totally bogus.

 

Originally Posted by Entropys View Post
That said, is the 5C selling as well as a 4S a year ago? Or better?

 

Apparently it’s doing slightly better. I’d imagine the colors are to thank for that.

 

Originally Posted by ayani1 View Post
The iPhone 5c could have been popular

 

It IS popular.

 

Originally Posted by Mavericks View Post
The price of 5c is not right.

 

Of course it is.

 

Originally Posted by miltenb View Post
Actually, It does have a backbone and is just common sense. 

 

No, it doesn’t.

 

However, if you price the two too close together, you'll end up with quite a few unsold 5c's.

 

They’re not priced too close. 

post #69 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I would not at all be surprised if this story is true. It was quite obvious that the relative pricing of the 5C was a mistake from the get-go. Apple had a chance to blow away the competition there, but chose not to do it.

Many of us called it on Day 1, and took grief for it.

I have no doubt that there will be a mea culpa and the pricing will be changed. Not a big deal, Apple has done it before, most famously with the original iPhone.

Btw, give journalists a bit of a break. Some of the conspiratorial comments here about the WSJ -- no, I don't work for them -- border on paranoia. They're just doing their job. Sometimes they may get wrong, but a lot of the times, they are spot on.

 

I have very little doubt that Apple will NOT give a mea culpa and lower the price.  Even if Apple, in retrospect, decides that a lower price for the 5c would have been better (and it's far from obvious that that is the case), there is no way they would apologize for the initial price.  That would be turning a victory (millions of sales of 5Cs to happy customers, and apparently even more millions of sales of 5Ss) into a defeat.  How stupid would you have to do be to do that?  On a personal note, I know 2 people who wanted a new iPhone and didn't see the sense in spending an extra $100 for features they didn't value.  In both cases they love the color options and love their new phones (and probably feel pretty smug that they have the same iPhone experience I have plus an extra $100 in their pocket).

 

Would Apple have sold more 5Cs at a lower price?  Of course.  Would they have sold fewer 5Ss?  Yes.  Can they lower the price of the 5C over time to pick up additional sales?  Yes.  I don't get why this is turning into to such a drama.

post #70 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Well assuming the 5C has better margins, if its not selling well one would assume Apple will report higher than expected ASPs and lower margins. And no I don't expect Apple to say its not selling like they had hoped, but I still think we'll get some color from their comments. And if we don't then perhaps the 5C is selling within their expectations and all this fake concern by the media is just BS.

 

Assuming.

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post #71 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post
 

 

I have very little doubt that Apple will NOT give a mea culpa and lower the price.  Even if Apple, in retrospect, decides that a lower price for the 5c would have been better (and it's far from obvious that that is the case), there is no way they would apologize for the initial price.  That would be turning a victory (millions of sales of 5Cs to happy customers, and apparently even more millions of sales of 5Ss) into a defeat.  How stupid would you have to do be to do that?  On a personal note, I know 2 people who wanted a new iPhone and didn't see the sense in spending an extra $100 for features they didn't value.  In both cases they love the color options and love their new phones (and probably feel pretty smug that they have the same iPhone experience I have plus an extra $100 in their pocket).

 

Would Apple have sold more 5Cs at a lower price?  Of course.  Would they have sold fewer 5Ss?  Yes.  Can they lower the price of the 5C over time to pick up additional sales?  Yes.  I don't get why this is turning into to such a drama.

 

As stupid as Steven P. Jobs.

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post #72 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post


Matching all your outfit to 1 colour, unless it's a wedding, is a "Fashion Don't".
Is somebody at Vogue smoking crack?

 

Ah the left brain take on art -- must try to fit it into an arbitrary box of rules to make sense of it.

 
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post #73 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

I have very little doubt that Apple will NOT give a mea culpa and lower the price.  Even if Apple, in retrospect, decides that a lower price for the 5c would have been better (and it's far from obvious that that is the case), there is no way they would apologize for the initial price.  That would be turning a victory (millions of sales of 5Cs to happy customers, and apparently even more millions of sales of 5Ss) into a defeat.  How stupid would you have to do be to do that?  On a personal note, I know 2 people who wanted a new iPhone and didn't see the sense in spending an extra $100 for features they didn't value.  In both cases they love the color options and love their new phones (and probably feel pretty smug that they have the same iPhone experience I have plus an extra $100 in their pocket).

Would Apple have sold more 5Cs at a lower price?  Of course.  Would they have sold fewer 5Ss?  Yes.  Can they lower the price of the 5C over time to pick up additional sales?  Yes.  I don't get why this is turning into to such a drama.

Agree. I couldn't care less about the 5c but it has it's market. For example:
http://www.todaysiphone.com/2013/10/3-weeks-with-the-new-iphones-and-why-im-probably-selling-my-iphone-5s/

I simply read this news as a "We can't attack the 5s because of 9 million figures so let's attack the 5c instead." bullshit from WSJ.
post #74 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

What happened to that same efficient estimating and proper planning with the 5s.

Originally Posted by starbird73

Remember, they can build these 5c phones faster than the 5 or 5s.
post #75 of 153
5c = $550 - $650
5s = $650 - $850

Apple priced the 5c so that the 5s is the smart buy.

What's an extra $100 when you're spending $550?

If they priced it at $450, they would see more movement...which they wouldn't want.
post #76 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

As stupid as Steven P. Jobs.

 

If he were still alive and didn't learn from past mistakes.  The fact that they cut the price of the original iPhone and pissed off the early adopters is not a justification for repeating that fiasco.  The way to make happy customers into unhappy ones is to make them look like suckers.  That's exactly why a mea culpa would be insane (to say nothing of being unnecessary).

post #77 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by starbird73 View Post


Originally Posted by starbird73

Remember, they can build these 5c phones faster than the 5 or 5s.

 

I keep hearing that but I've seen no evidence of it from Apple.

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post #78 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post
 

 

If he were still alive and didn't learn from past mistakes.  The fact that they cut the price of the original iPhone and pissed off the early adopters is not a justification for repeating that fiasco.  The way to make happy customers into unhappy ones is to make them look like suckers.  That's exactly why a mea culpa would be insane (to say nothing of being unnecessary).

 

Yeah... you're right. Apple sure has suffered from all those past mea culpas (real and otherwise).

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post #79 of 153
Since changing colors on these things wouldn't be such a large task, I say they should change the colors up to make them not only collectable, but appeal to different consumers. I say it is a great time to offer a black model and other more adult or sophisticated color pallets, like sand or eggshell, the list can be endless
post #80 of 153
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

As stupid as Steven P. Jobs.

 

It’s really not at all the same argument.

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