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Apple's cylindrical Mac Pro will debut in Dec. starting at $2,999 - Page 6

post #201 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

 

Can the APIs allow them to combine the processing power of two GPUs/memory even if someone is only using 1 monitor?  I'm not a developer so I'm not fully aware of what code they can utilize for this new dual GPU design.  

 

Yes, unlike the older generation of MacPro's that didn't support Crossfire the new models will be able to combine the GPU's.

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post #202 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

 

Yes, unlike the older generation of MacPro's that didn't support Crossfire the new models will be able to combine the GPU's.

That's nice.....  I really wish they showed a bunch of pro apps and compared the last gen MacPro to a new gen MacPro and showed actual speed test comparisons.

 

Maybe Apple will release their new monitors and do that.

 

I know this is kind of different topic, but I'm wondering what they might do with MacMini and whether or not they will release a higher end i7 based pro-prosumer model to fit in between.  I noticed the new iMacs didn't have Thunderbolt 2, but the new MacBookProRetinas did.  

 

Not all pros actually need or want a Xeon based system, but they do want better graphics, more ram, etc. with a higher end i7.

post #203 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


I checked out the specs of some AMD cards earlier and found the following ones matched:

The D300 is 2GB, 1280 SP, 256-bit, 160GB/s, 2TFlops = V7900 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx = $629 each on newegg )
D500 is 3GB, 1526 SP, 384-bit, 240GB/s, 2.2TFlops = roughly half an S10000? ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S10000/Pages/S10000.aspx#3 )
D700 is 6GB, 2048 SP, 384-bit, 264GB/s, 3.5TFlops = S9000/W9000 ( http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/firepro-remote-graphics/S9000/Pages/S9000.aspx#3 = $2199 S9000, $3399 W9000)

The S10000 is a dual GPU sold as a single unit so it looks like the D500 is half of it. The Mac Pro with dual D500 should be like having a single S10000. The dual D700 should be like having a dual S9000 and the entry model like a dual V7900. Notice the S9000 is only $2200 retail so if they got a really good deal with AMD, it may only be a $2-3k premium over the lower models.

If they had taken one of the GPUs out of the Mac Pro on the entry, it might have dropped the price down to $2499 but it depends on the deal with AMD. AMD might have given them a 2 for 1 deal or just a slightly extra charge for the second GPU. It wouldn't make sense to take the second one out if they got a great deal for two. It helps AMD's supplier relations because they have to commit to a certain volume.

They should all drive 4K displays quite well, which could be useful with publishing. 4K is like print-quality text rendering. For people who want single CPU and GPU, that's what the iMac and MBP are for. Not much sense in paying for a Mac Pro box for $2500 when a $2500 iMac has everything required and a 27" IPS display.

You need to compare the D300 to the W500, it's cheaper at only 400 per card, is faster and the v7900 has been discontinued. I'm actually surprised Amazon is still selling the V7900 .

 

These are defiantly custom solutions, manufactured specifically for Apple as the D500 and D700 really don't match up to any existing card from AMD, spec to spec. The real value of all three I think will be the 4,000 dollar mid machine with the D700, that would defiantly be my choice. Video cards themselves will cost 2500 bucks. This is an interesting read on the whole graphics thing.


Edited by Relic - 10/29/13 at 1:01pm
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post #204 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

I really wish they showed a bunch of pro apps and compared the last gen MacPro to a new gen MacPro and showed actual speed test comparisons.

They did that here:

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/performance/

They said their Luxmark OpenCL test is 4.8x faster for the complex benchmark. That would put it in the top 20 on the score site:

http://www.luxrender.net/luxmark/top/top20/Room

Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic 
I think their using the W5000 not the V7900. The V7900 has been discontinued and replaced by the W5000, it's also cheaper at only 400 per card and is faster. I'm actually surprised Amazon is still selling the V7900.

Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. 1wink.gif The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107
post #205 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

They should all drive 4K displays quite well, which could be useful with publishing. 4K is like print-quality text rendering.

 

Good point. Would software like Quark and InDesign require another update to support 4K?

 

Adobe just updated ID to support Retina recently.

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post #206 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


They did that here:

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/performance/

They said their Luxmark OpenCL test is 4.8x faster for the complex benchmark. That would put it in the top 20 on the score site:

http://www.luxrender.net/luxmark/top/top20/Room

Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.
Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. 1wink.gif The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107

I was referring to actual demos, not bar graphs.   I had a difficult time reading the fine print at the bottom where it lists the baseline configuration.  My eye sight isn't that good at that font size with white on black lettering and I am a little lazy.  I think it would be more impressive to people if they SEE it happening rather than some bar graphs.  They used to do this way back when and it has a different impact, which they kind of needed.  They might have more jaws dropping at the announcement.

post #207 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Good point. Would software like Quark and InDesign require another update to support 4K?

Adobe just updated ID to support Retina recently.

Once they support Retina displays, the only way they'd need another upgrade is if the users upgraded their retinas.
post #208 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

That's nice.....  I really wish they showed a bunch of pro apps and compared the last gen MacPro to a new gen MacPro and showed actual speed test comparisons.

 

Maybe Apple will release their new monitors and do that.

 

I know this is kind of different topic, but I'm wondering what they might do with MacMini and whether or not they will release a higher end i7 based pro-prosumer model to fit in between.  I noticed the new iMacs didn't have Thunderbolt 2, but the new MacBookProRetinas did.  

 

Not all pros actually need or want a Xeon based system, but they do want better graphics, more ram, etc. with a higher end i7.

 

Well the Intel Core i7-3615QM in the current Mac Mini is no slouch, if you take a look here you'll see that the CPU speed is already very fast. With the new one just around the corner we can expect those numbers to improve and we have a new Intel graphics chip to look forward too which will be a LOT better then previous models. I know this is going to sound weird but CPU wise the Mac Mini isn't that much slower than the entry level Mac Pro. Yes the XEON offers more cache, stability and other on die featuers but in term of raw performance it's only a couple of thousand points higher on the CPU scale. It's the system bus, PCIe SSD and of course GPU's that will make the biggest difference,


Edited by Relic - 10/29/13 at 1:30pm
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post #209 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


They did that here:

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/performance/

They said their Luxmark OpenCL test is 4.8x faster for the complex benchmark. That would put it in the top 20 on the score site:

http://www.luxrender.net/luxmark/top/top20/Room

Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.
Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. 1wink.gif The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107

The memory bandwith might be a little different but the W5000 still benchmarks higher, yea I'm pretty sure it's no longer available but your right maybe they are using the v7900, they bought the left overstock or something. They took them off the shelf at my near by dealer, I wanted to see if I can get one cheaper. No luck, I bought a W7000 instead but I got it for 520CHF instead of the 720CHF they were asking for, open box test model but who cares. FANTASTIC card, ATI is defiantly the way to go, unfortunately it wasn't for me but my neighbor. We updated his Nvidia K600, which also wasn't a bad card for the price but the W7000 is just WOW!!!!!!! So two D700's are going to be killer in the new MacPro.

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post #210 of 281

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post



Some of the results look inaccurate but they should all be multiple GPUs.
Are you sure it's discontinued? Maybe that's how they got them cheap. 1wink.gif The D300 spec matches the V7900 almost exactly. The W5000 has lower memory bandwidth and performance. Newegg sells the V7900 too:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195107

 

This seems really unlikely to me given the age of that card and the length of refresh cycles tied to Xeon EP hardware. I've found a few spec comparisons that try to discern whether it closely aligned with a reference design or if they chopped down the hardware framebuffer of a mid range card somewhere. Anyway I haven't been over that enough to comment, but I did look up the old V7900 specs as I recalled it being a PCI 2 card due to its age. It only supports as far as OpenCL 1.1. The maximum resolution supported is 2560x1600. Its generation makes me think it's an unlikely choice, not that I would put it past Apple or any other oem, as they all like to squeeze margins on items like this.

 

http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx#2

post #211 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

 

 

 

This seems really unlikely to me given the age of that card and the length of refresh cycles tied to Xeon EP hardware. I've found a few spec comparisons that try to discern whether it closely aligned with a reference design or if they chopped down the hardware framebuffer of a mid range card somewhere. Anyway I haven't been over that enough to comment, but I did look up the old V7900 specs as I recalled it being a PCI 2 card due to its age. It only supports as far as OpenCL 1.1. The maximum resolution supported is 2560x1600. Its generation makes me think it's an unlikely choice, not that I would put it past Apple or any other oem, as they all like to squeeze margins on items like this.

 

http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v7900/Pages/v7900.aspx#2

It's actually been really difficult trying to match up the new MacPros's ATI GPU's with ATI's current line up. The mid tier MacPro's D500 GPU is really driving me crazy. I'm currently in the hospital so I have plenty of time to stare at my tablet but with all the research I've done so far all I can come up with is that the D500 is closest to the w8000 but the price and other differences is throwing me off. I think what's happening here is that Apple is buying the GPU chips from AMD and building the boards themselves. I don't think this is a ATI reference design but a whole new beast. What do you guys think? I mean they must be, right. We all know the biggest price for the FireGL cards comes from drivers and the firmware. So Apple is buying 7950/60/70 chips and are writing their own drivers to make them FireGL's, hence the inexpensive price. Workstation GPU cards use the exact same chips as their gamer brethren, their identical in every way. It 's the drivers, firmware, ECC memory that make them workstation cards.


Edited by Relic - 10/29/13 at 2:26pm
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post #212 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Once they support Retina displays, the only way they'd need another upgrade is if the users upgraded their retinas.

I think the next important development with displays is not just higher resolution, it will be with displaying more colors on the screens.  Instead of millions, it will be tens of millions, hundreds of millions of billions.

post #213 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

It's actually been really difficult trying to match up the new MacPros's ATI GPU's with ATI's current line up. The mid tier MacPro's D500 GPU is really driving me crazy. I'm currently in the hospital so I have plenty of time to stare at my tablet but with all the research I've done so far all I can come up with is that the D500 is closest to the w8000 but the price and other differences is throwing me off. I think what's happening here is that Apple is buying the GPU chips from AMD and building the boards themselves.

Bleh that really sucks :(.


 

Quote:

I don't think this is a ATI reference design but a whole new beast. What do you guys think? I mean they must be, right. We all know the biggest price for the FireGL cards comes from drivers and the firmware. So Apple is buying 7950/60/70 chips and are writing their own drivers to make them FireGL's, hence the inexpensive price. Workstation GPU cards use the exact same chips as their gamer brethren, their identical in every way. It 's the drivers, firmware, ECC memory that make them workstation cards.

 

I've speculated on similar things. I figured Apple probably purchased the chips and licensed the Firepro name, then contracted whatever company to design/produce custom boards. I think it may be more likely that they cut down a mid-range card. The V7900 just has so much stuff that is out of date, and they haven't even started to ship mac pros yet. To me it seems silly given the limitations of that hardware.

post #214 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I think what's happening here is that Apple is buying the GPU chips from AMD and building the boards themselves. I don't think this is a ATI reference design but a whole new beast. What do you guys think? I mean they must be, right.

I would expect it's Apple building the GPU boards. I thought it was odd when Phil mentioned about people knowing how much D300s cost at the last event and the audience was pretty silent, same way they were when he said 6 Firewire 2 ports before and when he referred to Batman as the Black Knight (maybe Samuel L Jackson will be up against Henry Cavill in the next movie). Nobody knows what D300s cost when they are Apple's identifiers. Unless the Black Knight knows, I'll contact him over my Firewire 2 port.
post #215 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

I think the next important development with displays is not just higher resolution, it will be with displaying more colors on the screens.  Instead of millions, it will be tens of millions, hundreds of millions of billions.

10 bit panels do exist, meaning 2^10 combinations per channel rather than 2^8 so the total possible output colors would be 3(2^10) rather than 3(2^8). What you may not realize is that these things will not expand much in gamut without drastic changes. As of right now we view in gamma corrected spaces, which are partly inherent to the electronics, yet overall provide a decent method of viewing quantized images over a low dynamics range. The biggest current effect is better shadow detail and an elimination of banding that can otherwise crop up as displays age as well as a reduced reliance on hardware applied dithering (not sure if that's the right term, but I'm referring to internal display calculations). Apple has repeatedly stated they have no plans to add driver support for 3rd party 10 bit displays, but I'm sure when they come out with one, they'll make sure to advertise it everywhere.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


I would expect it's Apple building the GPU boards. I thought it was odd when Phil mentioned about people knowing how much D300s cost at the last event and the audience was pretty silent, same way they were when he said 6 Firewire 2 ports before and when he referred to Batman as the Black Knight (maybe Samuel L Jackson will be up against Henry Cavill in the next movie). Nobody knows what D300s cost when they are Apple's identifiers. Unless the Black Knight knows, I'll contact him over my Firewire 2 port.


I didn't watch that event, but yeah I thought they might avoid a direct comparison to PC parts. As I said before, it could be predominantly branding.

post #216 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

I didn't watch that event, but yeah I thought they might avoid a direct comparison to PC parts. As I said before, it could be predominantly branding.

 

Are the GPU boards soldered onto the motherboard, it would be really interesting to yank out one out and see how well it performs when put up against a ATI counterpart. The more I look at the 4,000 dollar model the more I want it. I've recently been offered 2,800 for my custom HP Z from a friend of my husbands and I could sell my iMac easiliy for another 1500 so I think I'm going to do it. I'll take the extra money and will buy another 30" Nec monitor for a total of three, plus up the memory to 64GB using third party RAMS of course, Apple charges way to much for theirs. When does the pre-order site come online?

 

What do you guys think, better than having just one 4k monitor and cheaper too. Not to mention the coolness factor will be off the charts. Finding a wallpaper is going to be a bitch though.

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post #217 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

 

Are the GPU boards soldered onto the motherboard, it would be really interesting to yank out one out and see how well it performs when put up against a ATI counterpart. The more I look at the 4,000 dollar model the more I want it. I've recently been offered 2,800 for my custom HP Z from a friend of my husbands and I could sell my iMac easiliy for another 1500 so I think I'm going to do it. I'll take the extra money and will buy another 30" Nec monitor for a total of three, plus up the memory to 64GB using third party RAMS of course, Apple charges way to much for theirs. When does the pre-order site come online?

 

What do you guys think, better than having just one 4k monitor and cheaper too. Not to mention the coolness factor will be off the charts. Finding a wallpaper is going to be a bitch though.


The 27" displays are decent too, and much cheaper in the US (sub $1000). IIRC the 30" variants are from the prior 90s series. As for wallpaper, make your own! Paint it, rent digital medium format, or get a pano kit. I tried the Really Right stuff pano kit a couple years ago. It's expensive, and if you use a heavier camera (old 1Ds MK II w/L lenses, so roughly 5 pounds total) get the gimbal version. The locks are too small on the older one. For lighter gear there are probably cheaper options, but none are really cheap. It would make for some awesome untiled wallpaper. I'm somewhat disappointed by pricing, but there's a chance I'll grab a refurbished model once those start to show up. It will be some time before that happens. It's not that hard to do the pano thing though if you center the pivot correctly and shoot a couple references for distortion and lens falloff. It's a little bit of work. Without that the newer generations of dslrs would still cover 7680 across.

post #218 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

10 bit panels do exist, meaning 2^10 combinations per channel rather than 2^8 so the total possible output colors would be 3(2^10) rather than 3(2^8). What you may not realize is that these things will not expand much in gamut without drastic changes. As of right now we view in gamma corrected spaces, which are partly inherent to the electronics, yet overall provide a decent method of viewing quantized images over a low dynamics range. The biggest current effect is better shadow detail and an elimination of banding that can otherwise crop up as displays age as well as a reduced reliance on hardware applied dithering (not sure if that's the right term, but I'm referring to internal display calculations). Apple has repeatedly stated they have no plans to add driver support for 3rd party 10 bit displays, but I'm sure when they come out with one, they'll make sure to advertise it everywhere.

 

I know these higher color displays exist, but I'm talking about filtering that technology down to the masses in average computers and mobile devices. Right now they are focusing mostly on number of pixels and at some point, our eyes can only see so much at various screen sizes and distances.  They are playing around in research labs with 8K video for replacing 4K at some point for movie theaters, but that won't hit the consumer market for a VERY long time.  Heck, most people are STILL using 720p and moving towards 1080p and 4K for the home.


One thing I know is when Apple or someone else makes a statement that they will "never do this or that", chances are they might at a later date, when it's feasible, cost effective, etc. etc. and it makes sense to do it.

 

I read an article from a propionate expert in the field of digital converters and psychoacoustics that said that 16 bit audio was just fine back in the beginning of digital audio.  Years later, he switched and went public saying that they are able to hear vast differences in 24 bit and they are STILL learning more about actually making better equipment to capture audio at 16 bit levels, 24 bit levels, 32 bit and higher.  DSD vs PCM, etc.   These arguments over better and higher resolution audio and video will continue as different and better measurement techniques are found.

 

I have a friend that used to sell the expensive Minolta color measurement systems many years ago and he used to consult with computer companies.  He actually did some work helping NeXT with their monitors and recently with Apple.  For all I know, he could have helped Apple with their calibration measurements they are using now to make their monitors.

 

I haven't talked to him in years so but I don't know what his thoughts are on the subject, so I'm just reading various articles by various people on the possibility of more colors becoming the next trend.

 

 

What I mean by 8K for the home, I'm referring to Kipnis because I'm sure that guy would get 8K to replace his 4K set up.  Why?  He's the only person so far that has a $6 Million home theater.  http://www.kipnis-studios.com/The_Kipnis_Studio_Standard/Kipnis_Home_Theaters.html

 

and there are other wealthy video geeks that will try to outdo him at some point in time.   :-)


Edited by drblank - 10/30/13 at 12:31pm
post #219 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

 

Are the GPU boards soldered onto the motherboard, it would be really interesting to yank out one out and see how well it performs when put up against a ATI counterpart. The more I look at the 4,000 dollar model the more I want it. I've recently been offered 2,800 for my custom HP Z from a friend of my husbands and I could sell my iMac easiliy for another 1500 so I think I'm going to do it. I'll take the extra money and will buy another 30" Nec monitor for a total of three, plus up the memory to 64GB using third party RAMS of course, Apple charges way to much for theirs. When does the pre-order site come online?

 

What do you guys think, better than having just one 4k monitor and cheaper too. Not to mention the coolness factor will be off the charts. Finding a wallpaper is going to be a bitch though.

 

The GPU boards are plugged into the PCI slot on the main board, but they are affixed to the heat sink and MOST LIKELY not user replaceable since they probably have thermal paste used.

 

Those GPU cards on MacPros are not user replaceable and they are custom designed by Apple and not a standard off the shelf card design.  I don't think Apple is going to offer replaceable GPU cards for after the initial sale.  I know this rubs some people the wrong way as some people buy a computer one day and then replace the GPU cards it came with a year or two later.

 

But the MacPro GPU cards are plugged into the main "backplane" board that sits on the bottom of the unit just like the CPU cards do.

post #220 of 281
Any idea what the max amount of video memory that will be available for the D700?
post #221 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter View Post

Any idea what the max amount of video memory that will be available for the D700?

I think it's 6BG per GPU for a total of 12GB. Isn't that what the original sneak preview said?

I wish they were able to pump out the 12 core model in December.  I would love to see all of the speed tests demos from each model side by side.

post #222 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

 

I have a friend that used to sell the expensive Minolta color measurement systems many years ago and he used to consult with computer companies.  He actually did some work helping NeXT with their monitors and recently with Apple.  For all I know, he could have helped Apple with their calibration measurements they are using now to make their monitors.

Are you referring to Minolta's color analyzers and the accompanying software? Good factory calibration really helps, but displays drift so much that these companies also need a solution for maintenance issues on the customer end as well as correlation. I really liked Eizo's CG211s. I wish they still made them. Used isn't very practical, as these things all eventually stop receiving software updates and colorimeter support.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

I know these higher color displays exist, but I'm talking about filtering that technology down to the masses in average computers and mobile devices. Right now they are focusing mostly on number of pixels and at some point, our eyes can only see so much at various screen sizes and distances.  They are playing around in research labs with 8K video for replacing 4K at some point for movie theaters, but that won't hit the consumer market for a VERY long time.  Heck, most people are STILL using 720p and moving towards 1080p and 4K for the home.

I get that. For what it's worth I've owned several generations of them (sony artisan-->NEC Spectraview 2190-->CG243W), so I do have some direct experience. I also know what parts are rebranded hardware. There are many points that would need to be updated for optimal results, including manufacturing tolerance. It would be ideal if they could get away from technology that requires a backlight, given variation in manufacturing. Even among 10 bit displays, it doesn't guarantee a better display. Some of them use just as much obvious dithering. The reason I wish Apple would support 10 bit displayport really relates to shadow detail. Gamma 2.2 has inherently few values allocated to deep shadow regions, and it really does help.

post #223 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

Are you referring to Minolta's color analyzers and the accompanying software? Good factory calibration really helps, but displays drift so much that these companies also need a solution for maintenance issues on the customer end as well as correlation. I really liked Eizo's CG211s. I wish they still made them. Used isn't very practical, as these things all eventually stop receiving software updates and colorimeter support.

 

I get that. For what it's worth I've owned several generations of them (sony artisan-->NEC Spectraview 2190-->CG243W), so I do have some direct experience. I also know what parts are rebranded hardware. There are many points that would need to be updated for optimal results, including manufacturing tolerance. It would be ideal if they could get away from technology that requires a backlight, given variation in manufacturing. Even among 10 bit displays, it doesn't guarantee a better display. Some of them use just as much obvious dithering. The reason I wish Apple would support 10 bit displayport really relates to shadow detail. Gamma 2.2 has inherently few values allocated to deep shadow regions, and it really does help.

He was selling color measurement tools during the early 90's.  he used to go to Stanford when the professor would ask him to go and give presentations on color measurement systems.  I don't remember exactly what tools they had, but he sold the expensive models, plus he sold other brands of expensive test measurement equipment to various companies, some were computer/monitor mfg, some were companies that made products where they had to ensure accurate and consistent color for products they sold. Etc.

 

I never asked him all of the different products he sold, but he would have one of the Professors go to my friend when the Professor didn't know the answer.  


Yeah, in ANY discipline new ways of doing things, new ways to measure, etc. emerges by various companies and what people THOUGHT was the correct way of doing things one year would change 10 years later.


If my memory serves me, I think the equipment he sold was around $10,000 or so that they would use for color measurement in the factories for monitors, but I'm sure different and better stuff has come out since.    The measurement tools they sell to the masses for a couple of hundred is probably pretty crude in comparison.

 

We would have to talk to my friend to get his opinion or someone that has a high level of understanding, so that's all I can say about that.  

 

I'm not current on what is out there, nor have I played around with it. It's just that there are further development in monitor technology and some are researching more colors being displayed as the next technology jump aside from ppi.

post #224 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

Are you referring to Minolta's color analyzers and the accompanying software? Good factory calibration really helps, but displays drift so much that these companies also need a solution for maintenance issues on the customer end as well as correlation. I really liked Eizo's CG211s. I wish they still made them. Used isn't very practical, as these things all eventually stop receiving software updates and colorimeter support.

 

I get that. For what it's worth I've owned several generations of them (sony artisan-->NEC Spectraview 2190-->CG243W), so I do have some direct experience. I also know what parts are rebranded hardware. There are many points that would need to be updated for optimal results, including manufacturing tolerance. It would be ideal if they could get away from technology that requires a backlight, given variation in manufacturing. Even among 10 bit displays, it doesn't guarantee a better display. Some of them use just as much obvious dithering. The reason I wish Apple would support 10 bit displayport really relates to shadow detail. Gamma 2.2 has inherently few values allocated to deep shadow regions, and it really does help.

Oh, I remembered an article I read regarding the high end reference level projection systems. There's a mfg called Meridian that bought a projector company called Farouja and they have this $200K+ projector that does actually scales to 4096 x 2400.  They use these at film production companies for their theaters to evaluate the films before they release them.  I read that they send someone out to calibrate the system, they bring expensive test equipment (brand/model I don't know) and I think the entire calibration process takes 3 days.  I think it's included in the price of the projector (I would hope for that kind of money).  

 

But yeah, the backlit monitors will eventually change.  That's why I'm a little excited about the IGZO technology and am waiting to see what it actually is and how good it looks.  I've heard rumblings the new displays from Apple that haven't been released yet might be using these.  We'll see what happens when Apple releases the 4K displays I'm sure they'll release.

 

There is technology called non-volitle memory and a company called Intersil makes these E2 Pots which were used a LONG time ago to replace traditional potentiometers in monitors as they were more reliable.   I think that's what Apple is still using as they did use them back a LONG time ago shortly after they came out.  It apparently helps keep the monitors consistent and helps with the calibration.  Again, I haven't sat through Apple's calibration processor know every chip inside, but I do know they did start using those pots a LONG time ago even back when they were using CRTs.

post #225 of 281

I really wish they would have just upgraded the old model. 

 

Kept the card slots, drive bays, dual CPU option, upgradable graphics cards... everything in a nice enclosure.

 

Would have been easy to add SSD, TB2, and USB3..  would still have ports on the front...  could stay on the floor...  

post #226 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post
 

I really wish they would have just upgraded the old model. 

 

Kept the card slots, drive bays, dual CPU option, upgradable graphics cards... everything in a nice enclosure.

 

Would have been easy to add SSD, TB2, and USB3..  would still have ports on the front...  could stay on the floor...  

 

Here's the problem with doing it the old way, as you suggest.  They would have to charge more money of the configuration since it would a LOT more expensive way to make it.  It wouldn't perform as well if they gave you only one GPU standard, and they would have to probably add fans and potentially water cooling which is even MORE expensive for the 12 core model with the higher end GPUs.

 

Sorry, but I understand your frustration because you are used to a certain paradigm, but the fact is it would be more expensive for the same performance.  I wish they used a rack mountable/tower configuration myself since a lot of people would like to put them in racks in studios or mobile location use and a rack mount works great for that, but it would add a lot of money to the cost and to the end user.


This way, you pay for what you need. I know lots of people that never add PCI cards, so why should those people pay for them or pay for internal cages, when they use external drives and SANS storage.   Bottom line, is the new way is just overall probably the best at this point in time considering the pros and cons of the new case design.

post #227 of 281

It truly doesn't make much of a difference.

 

Chances are, within the first year someone's going to come up with an add-on that sits below the ProCan, and connects to card slots, drive bays and a Blu-Ray player.

 

Actually, the Blu-Ray burner in this form factor already exists.

 

It's only a matter of time.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #228 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phone-UI-Guy View Post

 

No need to do that. I have used macs in this way for years. 

 

Plug in all IO cables to the mac applying power last. Keyboard should wake the mac so you can login. Reverse with power first followed by all other IO to disconnect and take your mac with you. If it goes to sleep or not is a controlled by power savings panel as you mentioned. You can have it go to sleep and wake it with keyboard, etc. using this connect/disconnect pattern.

 



I know the Macbook Pro works that way in theory, but if you put it to sleep and don't unplug anything, then come back to it, sometimes it doesn't wake up by pushing a button on the keyboard, you have to open the lid and push the power button to wake it up, and then closing the lid makes it go back to sleep again. The control panel is still set to make the computer sleep on a timer, but the specific setting of what action to take when the lid is closed has been set to do nothing. I go to Start < Sleep when I'm done using it to put it to sleep.

By the way, sleep only works in Win7 when you're on wireless. The Apple Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter is not sleep compliant in Win7 so the sleep option is not there anymore after a full restart with that adapter plugged in. That's one more reason I'll be hapy to upgrade to the new Mac Pro; designated Ethernet port built in.
Edited by fixmdude - 11/6/13 at 6:43am
post #229 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixmdude View Post

I wonder how much faster the 3.7 GHz 4-core will be over the 2.7 GHz 12-core in applications which don't use more than 4 cores. The addition of on-board cache to processors with more cores adds some speed, but I'd like to see that comparison chart between the CPUs. Then people can better fit the right processor for their needs between 4 and 12, like fitting the right furnace to your size house, bigger can become less efficient, and thus not better.

 



I found this great article today that compares the potential processors' 1 core speeds:

http://www.primatelabs.com/blog/2013/11/estimating-mac-pro-performance

Looks like the 6 or 8 cores is the way to go, for those who can afford it and don't need all 12 cores.
post #230 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

 

Here's the problem with doing it the old way, as you suggest.  They would have to charge more money of the configuration since it would a LOT more expensive way to make it.  It wouldn't perform as well if they gave you only one GPU standard, and they would have to probably add fans and potentially water cooling which is even MORE expensive for the 12 core model with the higher end GPUs.

 

Sorry, but I understand your frustration because you are used to a certain paradigm, but the fact is it would be more expensive for the same performance.  I wish they used a rack mountable/tower configuration myself since a lot of people would like to put them in racks in studios or mobile location use and a rack mount works great for that, but it would add a lot of money to the cost and to the end user.


This way, you pay for what you need. I know lots of people that never add PCI cards, so why should those people pay for them or pay for internal cages, when they use external drives and SANS storage.   Bottom line, is the new way is just overall probably the best at this point in time considering the pros and cons of the new case design.

Actually Apple engineers could easily create a new motherboard for the existing platform, there are many XEON boards that currently support Dual, Triple, Quad, heck there are even ones that support Hepta(7) for GPU servers. Just because the older motherboard didn't support multiple linked GPU's doesn't mean that Apple couldn't do it now, heck SLI has been around for more then a decade. Apple could haves easily added it to the last generation of Mac Pro's. I'm actually dumbfounded that this new Mac Pro is their first attempt at it. The new XEON processors also run cooler and have less wattage requirements then the previous generation. I miss the days where company's like Sonnet made upgrade boards for Apple products. This would be a perfect platform to upgrade, just remove the motherboard for a newer one, it would support 2 Xeon processors, possibly more than 2 graphics cards, more memory and still have a few PCI slots for those who need it. It would also be less expensive, the smaller the computer get's the more expensive it is to manufacturer, The starting price for the last generation is less expensive then the current one, why do assume it would be more if they stuck with current case.

 

Can I ask you why you keep saying that these type of machines need water cooling, outside of the modding community very few company's use or need it. I'm running 4 graphic cards now, 2 Nvidia Quadro 4000's in a SLI configuration (meaning their linked together as one) and two Tesla M1060S (these are for rendering), my machine is very quite, you wouldn't even know it was on unless you put your head under the desk. The CPU's also require more wattage and run much hotter then the 12 core CPU's, plus I'm pushing 4 GPU's, the system is always in the green heat wise and I'm only using fans. You really only need water cooling for computers that have been overclocked, again the modding community.

 

Here is the motherboard for my HP Z800, as you can see it supports 4 PCIe x16 GPU's.

 

 

Here is the case opened, as you can see no liquid cooling even with 4 GPU's and 2 XEON preocessors

 

 

 

Here is the reason why it's quite

 

 

This is what the Quadro 4000 looks like 

....and the Tesla M1060S, the Tesla cards are passively cooled so two less fans to make noise.

 

 

I bought the GPU's and 64GB ram separately, but they are all HP stamped products that were designed for the HP800, nothing in the machine is mismatched. The GPU cards are also single slot which means more space between them allowing for a cooler setup.

 

 

 

Before you start in on me DRblank, I just posted my computer as an example of a XEON machine that has a lot more going on than the current Mac Pro and it doesn't require fancy cooling and that XEOn machines can easily handle multiple GPU's. Plus as of yesterday I no longer have it, I sold it for 2800 to a friend of my husbands. If I get out of the hospital I'm going to buy the new Mac Pro with D500 graphics.


Edited by Relic - 11/7/13 at 7:21am
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #231 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Actually Apple engineers could easily create a new motherboard for the existing platform, there are many XEON boards that currently support Dual, Triple, Quad, heck there are even ones that support Hepta(7) for GPU servers. Just because the older motherboard didn't support multiple linked GPU's doesn't mean that Apple couldn't do it now, heck SLI has been around for more then a decade. Apple could haves easily added it to the last generation of Mac Pro's. I'm actually dumbfounded that this new Mac Pro is their first attempt at it. The new XEON processors also run cooler and have less wattage requirements then the previous generation. I miss the days where company's like Sonnet made upgrade boards for Apple products. This would be a perfect platform to upgrade, just remove the motherboard for a newer one, it would support 2 Xeon processors, possibly more than 2 graphics cards, more memory and still have a few PCI slots for those who need it. It would also be less expensive, the smaller the computer get's the more expensive it is to manufacturer, The starting price for the last generation is less expensive then the current one, why do assume it would be more if they stuck with current case.

 

Can I ask you why you keep saying that these type of machines need water cooling, outside of the modding community very few company's use or need it. I'm running 4 graphic cards now, 2 Nvidia Quadro 4000's in a SLI configuration (meaning their linked together as one) and two Tesla M1060S (these are for rendering), my machine is very quite, you wouldn't even know it was on unless you put your head under the desk. The CPU's also require more wattage and run much hotter then the 12 core CPU's, plus I'm pushing 4 GPU's, the system is always in the green heat wise and I'm only using fans. You really only need water cooling for computers that have been overclocked, again the modding community.

 

Here is the motherboard for my HP Z800, as you can see it supports 4 PCIe x16 GPU's.

 

 

Here is the case opened, as you can see no liquid cooling even with 4 GPU's and 2 XEON preocessors

 

 

 

Here is the reason why it's quite

 

 

This is what the Quadro 4000 looks like 

....and the Tesla M1060S, the Tesla cards are passively cooled so two less fans to make noise.

 

 

I bought the GPU's and 64GB ram separately, but they are all HP stamped products that were designed for the HP800, nothing in the machine is mismatched. The GPU cards are also single slot which means more space between them allowing for a cooler setup.

 

 

 

Is that your rig with x2 Tesla cards?

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #232 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post
 

 

Is that your rig with x2 Tesla cards?

 

Lemon Bon Bon.

Yes, it was an eBay purchase. I first bought the HP800, then I upgraded to two 2 Xeon X5660's, then one Quadro 4000 card, then one Tesla and so on so fourth. I slowly updated the machine over a course of one year. I hunted down and used nothing but HP parts to built it except for the CPU's which I got out of a IBM server. The last upgrade I did was put in 3 600GB 15K SAS HP stamped HD's but I think their Fujitsu drives. None the less I paid a total of 2800 for it when all was said and done. The machine can handle anything thrown at it, I am yet to see it stutter. The main OS is CentOS but I have WIndows 2012 Server R2, and RedHat in a triple boot. Mars is incredible on it. It was a fun machine to build but now that it's finish I will start all over again and build an even faster machine.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #233 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Yes, it was an eBay purchase. I first bought the HP800, then I upgraded to two 2 Xeon X5660's, then one Quadro 4000 card, then one Tesla and so on so fourth. I slowly updated the machine over a course of one year. I hunted down and used nothing but HP parts to built it except for the CPU's which I got out of a IBM server. The last upgrade I did was put in 3 600GB 15K SAS HP stamped HD's but I think their Fujitsu drives. None the less I paid a total of 2800 for it when all was said and done. The machine can handle anything thrown at it, I am yet to see it stutter. The main OS is CentOS but I have WIndows 2012 Server R2, and RedHat in a triple boot. Mars is incredible on it. It was a fun machine to build but now that it's finish I will start all over again and build an even faster machine.

 


You're my soul mate.
post #234 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Yes, it was an eBay purchase. I first bought the HP800, then I upgraded to two 2 Xeon X5660's, then one Quadro 4000 card, then one Tesla and so on so fourth. I slowly updated the machine over a course of one year. I hunted down and used nothing but HP parts to built it except for the CPU's which I got out of a IBM server. The last upgrade I did was put in 3 600GB 15K SAS HP stamped HD's but I think their Fujitsu drives. None the less I paid a total of 2800 for it when all was said and done. The machine can handle anything thrown at it, I am yet to see it stutter. The main OS is CentOS but I have WIndows 2012 Server R2, and RedHat in a triple boot. Mars is incredible on it. It was a fun machine to build but now that it's finish I will start all over again and build an even faster machine.

 

This reminds me of a conversation I had with someone the other day. They mentioned installing Ubuntu. I replied, "Ubuntu is the diet pepsi of Linux. It's one calorie Linux, just not Linux enough." I still like Fedora.

post #235 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixmdude View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Yes, it was an eBay purchase. I first bought the HP800, then I upgraded to two 2 Xeon X5660's, then one Quadro 4000 card, then one Tesla and so on so fourth. I slowly updated the machine over a course of one year. I hunted down and used nothing but HP parts to built it except for the CPU's which I got out of a IBM server. The last upgrade I did was put in 3 600GB 15K SAS HP stamped HD's but I think their Fujitsu drives. None the less I paid a total of 2800 for it when all was said and done. The machine can handle anything thrown at it, I am yet to see it stutter. The main OS is CentOS but I have WIndows 2012 Server R2, and RedHat in a triple boot. Mars is incredible on it. It was a fun machine to build but now that it's finish I will start all over again and build an even faster machine.

 


You're my soul mate.

$2800 total cost for parts, but 1,000 hours of labor x $75/hr equals another $75,000.  Yeah, cost savings.  I love how tech people COMPLETELY miss the point that they don't really calculate all of the hours they waste and how much per hour that time is and add that to the cost of the total system.

 

And to do what?  What apps are being used?  To play games?

post #236 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Actually Apple engineers could easily create a new motherboard for the existing platform, there are many XEON boards that currently support Dual, Triple, Quad, heck there are even ones that support Hepta(7) for GPU servers. Just because the older motherboard didn't support multiple linked GPU's doesn't mean that Apple couldn't do it now, heck SLI has been around for more then a decade. Apple could haves easily added it to the last generation of Mac Pro's. I'm actually dumbfounded that this new Mac Pro is their first attempt at it. The new XEON processors also run cooler and have less wattage requirements then the previous generation. I miss the days where company's like Sonnet made upgrade boards for Apple products. This would be a perfect platform to upgrade, just remove the motherboard for a newer one, it would support 2 Xeon processors, possibly more than 2 graphics cards, more memory and still have a few PCI slots for those who need it. It would also be less expensive, the smaller the computer get's the more expensive it is to manufacturer, The starting price for the last generation is less expensive then the current one, why do assume it would be more if they stuck with current case.

 

Can I ask you why you keep saying that these type of machines need water cooling, outside of the modding community very few company's use or need it. I'm running 4 graphic cards now, 2 Nvidia Quadro 4000's in a SLI configuration (meaning their linked together as one) and two Tesla M1060S (these are for rendering), my machine is very quite, you wouldn't even know it was on unless you put your head under the desk. The CPU's also require more wattage and run much hotter then the 12 core CPU's, plus I'm pushing 4 GPU's, the system is always in the green heat wise and I'm only using fans. You really only need water cooling for computers that have been overclocked, again the modding community.

 

Here is the motherboard for my HP Z800, as you can see it supports 4 PCIe x16 GPU's.

 

 

Here is the case opened, as you can see no liquid cooling even with 4 GPU's and 2 XEON preocessors

 

 

 

Here is the reason why it's quite

 

 

This is what the Quadro 4000 looks like 

....and the Tesla M1060S, the Tesla cards are passively cooled so two less fans to make noise.

 

 

I bought the GPU's and 64GB ram separately, but they are all HP stamped products that were designed for the HP800, nothing in the machine is mismatched. The GPU cards are also single slot which means more space between them allowing for a cooler setup.

 

 

 

Before you start in on me DRblank, I just posted my computer as an example of a XEON machine that has a lot more going on than the current Mac Pro and it doesn't require fancy cooling and that XEOn machines can easily handle multiple GPU's. Plus as of yesterday I no longer have it, I sold it for 2800 to a friend of my husbands. If I get out of the hospital I'm going to buy the new Mac Pro with D500 graphics.

 

You paid $2800, sold it for $2800 and wasted a LOT of time, energy and lost opportunity to do something productive to do what?  to go off topic. That system STILL doesn't have Thunderbolt, can't legally run OSX and run Final Cut Pro.  WHAT A FREAKING waste of time.

 

Relic, you really need to go to another site and waste someone else's time.

 

SERIOUSLY.  It's too bad I don't operate this site, as you would have been booted off YEARS ago.

 

Having technical knowledge to do this isn't that big of deal, but what is a little more difficult is using common sense and business sense, for which you have NONE.

post #237 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

 

You paid $2800, sold it for $2800 and wasted a LOT of time, energy and lost opportunity to do something productive to do what?  to go off topic. That system STILL doesn't have Thunderbolt, can't legally run OSX and run Final Cut Pro.  WHAT A FREAKING waste of time.

 

Relic, you really need to go to another site and waste someone else's time.

 

SERIOUSLY.  It's too bad I don't operate this site, as you would have been booted off YEARS ago.

 

Having technical knowledge to do this isn't that big of deal, but what is a little more difficult is using common sense and business sense, for which you have NONE.

 



You missed the point. S/he said that s/he was getting a Mac Pro too.

I'd like to see you go to Indy 500 or Le Mans and yell at the pit crews for wasting so much time, energy, and fuel driving around in circles. Maybe you can convince them that they aren't having fun?
Edited by fixmdude - 11/8/13 at 12:33pm
post #238 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixmdude View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

 

You paid $2800, sold it for $2800 and wasted a LOT of time, energy and lost opportunity to do something productive to do what?  to go off topic. That system STILL doesn't have Thunderbolt, can't legally run OSX and run Final Cut Pro.  WHAT A FREAKING waste of time.

 

Relic, you really need to go to another site and waste someone else's time.

 

SERIOUSLY.  It's too bad I don't operate this site, as you would have been booted off YEARS ago.

 

Having technical knowledge to do this isn't that big of deal, but what is a little more difficult is using common sense and business sense, for which you have NONE.

 



You missed the point. S/he said that s/he was getting a Mac Pro too.

I'd like to see you go to Indy 500 or Le Mans and yell at the pit crews for wasting so much time, energy, and fuel driving around in circles. Maybe you can convince them that they aren't having fun?

 

I didn't miss any point.  She went off topic with her PC BS.  I'm sick of it.  She should just discuss the MacPro if she's interested and not post 15 gillion photos of her HP system.  She  should post those on a HP/PC related site.

 

 

Your analogy is dumb.  No relevance.  The only thing I would say is you'd be stupid to bring a Nascar racing vehicle to the LeMans, which is what she did.

 

She's talking about server software on a HP PC she hobbled together USED from eBay and I doubt she even got HP's blessing that her configuration actually would pass HP's configuration to be able to be considered for a support contract.

 

It's some dumb USED last generation HP PC she hobbled together to install SERVER software that's unrelated to Apple.  The whole thing is a waste of my time and now YOU are wasting my time.  I should charge both of you for my time just dealing with this.

post #239 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

 

I didn't miss any point.  She went off topic with her PC BS.  I'm sick of it.  She should just discuss the MacPro if she's interested and not post 15 gillion photos of her HP system.  She  should post those on a HP/PC related site.

 

 

Your analogy is dumb.  No relevance.  The only thing I would say is you'd be stupid to bring a Nascar racing vehicle to the LeMans, which is what she did.

 

She's talking about server software on a HP PC she hobbled together USED from eBay and I doubt she even got HP's blessing that her configuration actually would pass HP's configuration to be able to be considered for a support contract.

 

It's some dumb USED last generation HP PC she hobbled together to install SERVER software that's unrelated to Apple.  The whole thing is a waste of my time and now YOU are wasting my time.  I should charge both of you for my time just dealing with this.

 



Note to self: Rumor sites are efficient businesses and their forums should not be used to chat about hobbies that waste the time of people who read them during working hours.

The Mac Pro is conceptualized, designed, and built, to compete with PC Workstations. Comparing the two, good or bad, is the point of those discussing it. You should charge yourself for wasting your time reading this forum. Just stick to the CNN Tech page for the news.
post #240 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixmdude View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

 

I didn't miss any point.  She went off topic with her PC BS.  I'm sick of it.  She should just discuss the MacPro if she's interested and not post 15 gillion photos of her HP system.  She  should post those on a HP/PC related site.

 

 

Your analogy is dumb.  No relevance.  The only thing I would say is you'd be stupid to bring a Nascar racing vehicle to the LeMans, which is what she did.

 

She's talking about server software on a HP PC she hobbled together USED from eBay and I doubt she even got HP's blessing that her configuration actually would pass HP's configuration to be able to be considered for a support contract.

 

It's some dumb USED last generation HP PC she hobbled together to install SERVER software that's unrelated to Apple.  The whole thing is a waste of my time and now YOU are wasting my time.  I should charge both of you for my time just dealing with this.

 



Note to self: Rumor sites are efficient businesses and their forums should not be used to chat about hobbies that waste the time of people who read them during working hours.

The Mac Pro is conceptualized, designed, and built, to compete with PC Workstations. Comparing the two, good or bad, is the point of those discussing it. You should charge yourself for wasting your time reading this forum. Just stick to the CNN Tech page for the news.

But she's comparing a USED PC that was LAST year's model.

 

In the mean time, KISS MY ASS.

 

She went off topic.  and now YOU are wasting even MORE of my time.

 

Where does Apple compare their MacPro system to a PC workstation.  All of their benchmark tests were being compared to earlier versions of MacPros.  They didn't have any comparisons against PCs on their own web site.  In fact, Apple RARELY shows benchmarks comparing their systems to others, they usually compare against a previous generation Apple product.  That's what they've been doing for many years now.

 

Seriously, GROW UP.  If I want to discuss used HP Workstations off of eBay, then I'll find a site that discusses those, which I'm sure there aren't too many of.

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