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Microsoft exec takes swing at Apple, calls iWork 'watered down,' iPad 'entertainment device' - Page 5

post #161 of 201
I'm kind of ticked. I just bought a brand new MBA in August after the updated ones came out. I was on the phone with Apple just now for a separate issue and I had asked about if there's anyway I could get the iLife suite for free since I just dropped $2,000 on a new computer. The guy on the other end asked someone and came back and said no. I just don't understand that rationale. You can give away Mavericks for free to anyone but not iWork because I didn't buy the computer after October 1st? That's shady.
post #162 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclvr03 View Post

I'm kind of ticked. I just bought a brand new MBA in August after the updated ones came out. I was on the phone with Apple just now for a separate issue and I had asked about if there's anyway I could get the iLife suite for free since I just dropped $2,000 on a new computer. The guy on the other end asked someone and came back and said no. I just don't understand that rationale. You can give away Mavericks for free to anyone but not iLife because I didn't buy the computer after October 1st? That's shady.

It's not "shady", what they want to prevent is having to cut checks to everyone that bought a relatively inexpensive software app that they've already recognized as revenue.  I think it's more of an accounting issue, if anything.

 

When they made the decision to give away software instead of charging for it, they have to set rules and live by those rules.

 

I think some people take it a little too personally, but there are certain things that they have to consider when they make these decisions. 

 

If they get enough flack about it, they might do something, but whenever you buy something ultimately it's buyer beware and if Apple wants to offer iWork for free for people that bought the software or computer prior to the date they have specified, then they might change their position, but I wouldn't expect it.

 

You can always return the product you bought, get a refund, if it's within 30 days and then repurchase the product.  :-)

 

October 1 is the beginning of a new quarter.

 

Unfortunately, I think Accounting might have been involved with this decision and they look at it from a bean counting perspective.

 

They might offer Gift Cards, did you ask for that?  I'd call them back and talk to a manager.  Did you talk to a manager?  The regular people can only do what Upper management tells them, but managers can sometimes override things.  Remember, these are people and they may WANT to give you free product, but they can violate policies and lose their job over it.  so ask to speak to a manager.  Be nice because they are just doing their job and don't always have ultimate say-so.  Otherwise, send Tim Cook an email.  tcook@apple.com is his email address, or send him a handwritten document explaining you would love to use Pages, BUT since it didn't come with it, you have to use a pen and paper instead.  :-)

 

Oh, if you call them up and speak to a manager, PLEAD, BEG with sugar on top and get over emotional about it and tell them you'll be their best friend and ask for a gift card.  They might do it.   :-)


Edited by drblank - 10/24/13 at 10:10am
post #163 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

It's not "shady", what they want to prevent is having to cut checks to everyone that bought a relatively inexpensive software app that they've already recognized as revenue.  I think it's more of an accounting issue, if anything.

 

 

Unfortunately, I think Accounting might have been involved with this decision and they look at it from a bean counting perspective.

 

 

But giving away Mavericks for free to anyone that could've had Snow Leopard isn't an accounting issue....?

post #164 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytotheford View Post

I'm no tech guru, but Apple builds devices that integrate with its desktop and laptops. Why would they build a tablet that replaces the need for a basic computer?

Because the ipad is a curve jumper that is taking on the whole pc space - macs as good as they are, haven't been able to do that.
post #165 of 201
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post
 

Apple also announced the updates to OSX is free, referring to Windows not being free. But Windows 8.1 is also a free upgrade so there actually priced the same. If you buy a PC it comes with Windows, if you buy a Mac it comes with OS X and the latest update for both a[re] free.

 

You're wrong.  Consider November 2009 when Windows 7 and OS X Snow Leopard were available.

If you bought a Windows 7 machine then you'd have to pay Microsoft to upgrade it to the current Windows 8.1.

If you bought a Snow Leopard Mac in 2009 then the upgrade to the current Mavericks is free.

post #166 of 201

Hmm.. interesting claim.  I'll have to try the surface to see if I can really be productive...

post #167 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

When I was watching the Apple Event and they said "We now have full document compatibility across iOS and Mac," I briefly wondered if they had just discarded the old Mac version and ported the iOS version across. With the lost functionality people are now seeing I'm wondering that again.

That seems to be what they did. Apparently only Keynote avoided the slaughter, though previous users all seem to dislike the side bar formatting thing (I was suspicious of its screen wasting when they showed it during the keynote).

Since the last iWork was released in 2009, I've been wondering why it was left abandoned for so long. Did they only have one developer working on it? Did he leave Apple and leave his code a mess? Did they find it was so impossible to port to iOS that they had to restart development? Will they ever put the old functionality back in???

At first I was happy about the announcement, but then I had this sneaking uneasy feeling that it was all too easy. Now I know my suspicion was right. I will never upgrade to a downgraded product.
post #168 of 201

Come on the Surface is a "some assembly required", needed parts sold separately (the keyboard) laptop.

 

Compare it to a Macbook Air?

post #169 of 201
Microsoft isn't as wrong as you think. Listen to actual iWork users:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5468056?tstart=0
post #170 of 201
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post

 

Instant argument destroyer, but you know that given your background.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #171 of 201

Microsoft has gone from inept to pathetic to whining loser!

post #172 of 201
Translation: the mortal threat to Redmond posed by Apple's recent iWork bundling moves both on the Web / Cloud and on tablets has not gone unnoticed, and has to be countered as a matter of grave urgency. Period.
post #173 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclvr03 View Post

I'm kind of ticked. I just bought a brand new MBA in August after the updated ones came out. I was on the phone with Apple just now for a separate issue and I had asked about if there's anyway I could get the iLife suite for free since I just dropped $2,000 on a new computer. The guy on the other end asked someone and came back and said no. I just don't understand that rationale. You can give away Mavericks for free to anyone but not iWork because I didn't buy the computer after October 1st? That's shady.

 

I just bought a 15" retina, backed up my 2008 MacBook, I had iLife and iWork, I loaded my time machine backup and had no issues with downloading all the free stuff except I now seem to have two GarageBands.

 

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #174 of 201
It's a shame to see that a person significantly lower than apple, would say this. I mean, just, wow. The company that complains and brags will always look worse. That's why I remember this: Apple is your typical 20 year old, mature, job, financially stable, married, nice house, and want to help others almost more than himself, etc. But Microsoft, is that little two year old that has barely learned how to talk, but they use that new skill to much! They steal ideas and try their hardest to take credit, when they see something that is better than their own, they want to say that their's is better when it's clearly not, try to hit you when they don't get their way, and the list goes on. I am sure looking forward to when these other companies grow up to the age they should be. In the technology world, you can chose what age to play at, at anytime. Let's remember that Microsoft wasn't always like this, they ware still a powerful company in products, but they are missing the fact that to be appreciated, don't be a noisy two year old.
post #175 of 201
Apple completely reengineered iWork for iPad and Mac, and added jaw-dropping collaboration capability on top of the already impressive iCloud iWork, and is providing it free on all newly purchased devices (as well as liberally allowing updating from older versions). And Pages produces ePub output, too. The iWork suite will be on many, many millions of Apple tablets and desktops as a de facto standard. This is why Microsoft is sweating and throwing stones, particularly with their hideous Windows 8 Surface devices selling so poorly as to be an economic liability to Microsoft.
Microsoft is well aware that the iPad can steer the industry, which was dramatically illustrated as the iPad 1 alone put an end to mobile Flash and diminished Flash in general. And, we all remember, Adobe executives were then blogging vitriol against Apple and Steve Jobs then just as Microsoft is now, fearful of what they saw coming.
We're seeing powerhouse software development coming out of Apple now, and everything tells us that this is going to accelerate. And software is the lesser element of this hardware company. Microsoft may well fall even further behind this dynamic company.
post #176 of 201
"So, when I see Apple drop the price of their struggling, lightweight productivity apps, I don't see a shot across our bow, I see an attempt to play catch up,"

Isn't that exactly what Microsoft are doing with the lower pricing on their hardware???
post #177 of 201
Microsoft is right unfortunately IF they meant 'watered down' is 'removing stuff that has been in in the previous version'.

Check the apple community forums and read about the removal of more than 25 features plaguing users. I certainly need to revert to 4.0.
post #178 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagan Reese View Post

It's a shame to see that a person significantly lower than apple, would say this. I mean, just, wow. The company that complains and brags will always look worse. That's why I remember this: Apple is your typical 20 year old, mature, job, financially stable, married, nice house, and want to help others almost more than himself, etc. But Microsoft, is that little two year old that has barely learned how to talk, but they use that new skill to much! They steal ideas and try their hardest to take credit, when they see something that is better than their own, they want to say that their's is better when it's clearly not, try to hit you when they don't get their way, and the list goes on. I am sure looking forward to when these other companies grow up to the age they should be. In the technology world, you can chose what age to play at, at anytime. Let's remember that Microsoft wasn't always like this, they ware still a powerful company in products, but they are missing the fact that to be appreciated, don't be a noisy two year old.

Microsoft has been holding off on releasing Office for iOS for the iPad purposely so they can try to gain market share with the Surface products, but what Microsoft doesn't get is that tablets are not always used with an office product where the user NEEDS or even WANTS a full blown application.  I would argue that MOST people don't even use most of the features of Office. I certainly never did.  The only reason why I use Office on my Mac is because i would get forms sent to me that were Excel based and I had to use Office.   I got upset because I was using an older version of Office that worked just fine with my own spreadsheets but had to buy the 2011 version because some company sent me a later version Excel document where I had to upgrade.  Yeah, I had to spend another $100+ just to fill out some stupid Excel form for some financial institution. 

post #179 of 201
Its absolutely true that Pages and Numbers are not as powerful as Word and Excel. However, they are both more than adequate for the vast majority of users.

Word and Excel are great tools but many of their "power features" are not even used by most users.
post #180 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Likkie View Post

Its absolutely true that Pages and Numbers are not as powerful as Word and Excel. However, they are both more than adequate for the vast majority of users.

Word and Excel are great tools but many of their "power features" are not even used by most users.

 

I think Microsoft should just get off their asses and release the iOS version of Office for the iPad and STFU and just make money the way they are used to making money.


Didn't they say a year ago they were releasing Office for iPads that was free and pay as you go?  What happened?  Poor Surface sales?

post #181 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post

If you go read the reviews in the Mac App Store, you'll see what watered down means. They've removed tons of functionality from all three iWork applications on the Mac just to make them match up with iOS and iCloud. Go to the Apple forums.

Apple just broke my heart. This just confirmed the fear that Apple doesn't really care about serious tools. No wonder these are free. They dumped the actual software and redeveloped a mockery of what it was.

This is entirely true. The problem is that you can't avoid iWork's 6 if you want to use iCloud. If they only made MS Office available on iPad... Apple really moves the wrong way. Simplicitiy is good, but not if it means that you can't do what you need to do. 

post #182 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen View Post

MS's main problem is that when you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail.

They cannot see that people use Office because it's installed pretty much by default on most computers at work. People then "borrow" the disks to take home and install it for free (well, they certainly did at my last place of work!). Almost every document I'm sent in Word format could have been written in TextEdit just as well, let alone Pages or something as feature-bloated as Word.

Microsoft will continue to slide into irrelevance unless they realise what people really want outside of a forced software situation and reflex actions from their work where people just want "Word format" because they're used to it.

Actually, Microsoft now has the Home Use Program with many partner companies - Office Pro for $9.95 - to combat piracy. So isn't that "giving it away" too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMcM76 View Post

The only place I've ever seen anyone using a Surface is Chesters Mill, but as that is a fictional town trapped under a dome I'm not sure it really counts 1wink.gif

Meanwhile I know at least 30 people who have an iPad or iPad mini, and several more who are now waiting to get one following Tuesdays announcements...

Don't forget Starling City! (Arrow) but, again, a fictional city that, while no dome, has a giant crater in the middle of it.

And the NFL. Tons of banners over all the stadiums. Though, the pregame shows, they look more like props to the guys paper notes and the screen under the desk.
post #183 of 201

If anything this should be prime time for MS to release what they consider a full featured Office for the iPad at a reasonable price. They could take advantage of those users who are missing the features that the free iWork doesn't have.

 

I guess I'm lucky in that I haven't found any features that I use removed. So far :)

post #184 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

Um, they just did. Remember that whole iOS 7, brand new iWork and iLife apps on both OS X and iOS. Are you paying attention?

They also said NEW devices and NEW computers. Which means really only those buying iPhones, iPads, computers now should be freaking out. Anyone with older devices shouldn't be expecting anything.

For those that want to verify what they said, scrub to about minute 48 and minute 55 of the keynote to hear it for yourself

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #185 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysamoria View Post


That seems to be what they did. Apparently only Keynote avoided the slaughter, though previous users all seem to dislike the side bar formatting thing (I was suspicious of its screen wasting when they showed it during the keynote).

Since the last iWork was released in 2009, I've been wondering why it was left abandoned for so long. Did they only have one developer working on it? Did he leave Apple and leave his code a mess? Did they find it was so impossible to port to iOS that they had to restart development? Will they ever put the old functionality back in???

At first I was happy about the announcement, but then I had this sneaking uneasy feeling that it was all too easy. Now I know my suspicion was right. I will never upgrade to a downgraded product.

 

Hopefully this will follow the model of Final Cut X -- some missing features at first that are quickly added back. I'm quite certain that the cause for the downgrades is the tit-for-tat compatibility and perhaps simplifying the real time collaboration. Some of the dropped features, like linked text boxes, were really cool and helpful.

post #186 of 201

Well, I did find one thing that isn't working like it used to- automatic list detection. There's a preference to turn it on, and when working on spreadsheets where it always happened under the previous version, this version isn't doing it. I tried looking it up in Help and wasn't able to figure it out.

 

Sure, it could be me messing up somehow, but - a) it shouldn't happen and b) it should be easy to fix if it does :)

 

I can see where people who really use this feature would be PISSED. For me it's not a huge deal.

 

Hope these features get added back soon.

post #187 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by 512ke View Post
 

I would suggest that Office and Powerpoint are not feature rich apps.  

 

They were feature rich apps by the standards of 20 years ago.

 

Now it's no big whoop to create an alternative that's compatible with Microsoft Office.

 

Google docs.  iWork.  Pages.  TextEdit.

 

What's so great about Microsoft Office in 2013?  It's time to let go of the familiar that has value only because it's familiar.

Home office needs and you should look no further than the suggestions you listed, they'll work just fine. Once you start adding database connections, scripts and formulas than you have no choice but to use MS Office or Apache Open Office.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #188 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post
 

 

You're wrong.  Consider November 2009 when Windows 7 and OS X Snow Leopard were available.

If you bought a Windows 7 machine then you'd have to pay Microsoft to upgrade it to the current Windows 8.1.

If you bought a Snow Leopard Mac in 2009 then the upgrade to the current Mavericks is free.

Some manufactures are offering it for free for newer machines with Windows 7, those who don't it's 50 for Windows 8 (seen it as low as 25) and 75 for Windows 8 Pro. Personally if you do not have a touchscreen tablet it offers nothing so why bother. 

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #189 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Some manufactures are offering it for free for newer machines with Windows 7, those who don't it's 50 for Windows 8 (seen it as low as 25) and 75 for Windows 8 Pro. Personally if you do not have a touchscreen tablet it offers nothing so why bother. 


Boots in a few seconds and gives some other speed improvements while its running to.

post #190 of 201
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
Some manufactures are offering it for free for newer machines with Windows 7, those who don't it's 50 for Windows 8 (seen it as low as 25) and 75 for Windows 8 Pro. Personally if you do not have a touchscreen tablet it offers nothing so why bother. 
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Boots in a few seconds and gives some other speed improvements while its running to.

 

All the better for getting a Mac rather than a Windows machine.

 

Apple unconditionally gives for free a substantial update to Mac OS X.

 

Conversely most Windows users have to pay for a minor update.

post #191 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post
 

 

All the better for getting a Mac rather than a Windows machine.

 

Apple unconditionally gives for free a substantial update to Mac OS X.

 

Conversely most Windows users have to pay for a minor update.


Hahahaha you call the difference between Windows 7 and 8 a minor update. Literally a whole new style of apps, a store, xbox music, better multi monitor support with the taskbar, boot times going from a minute to 6 seconds, amongst a load of other thing like apps.

 

But you think the update OSX is getting a substantial. A port of iBooks, a port of Maps, reverting the UI changes to iCal from the last update, multiple displays, safari updates and tabs in Finder. Who in there right mind even pay for that if they tried!

 

Reading the reviews there's even a crap load of people complaining that there machines are now slower than ever or constantly crash. I was right about to upgrade until I read that and though. Do I want to risk it so that I can have tabs in Finder and 2 apps I'm never going to use. Maybe not.

post #192 of 201
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post
Hahahaha you call the difference between Windows 7 and 8 a minor update.

 

How many jokes you want here? “Major disaster”, “minor install rate”, there are a million of ‘em.

 

But you think the update OSX is getting a substantial. A port of iBooks, a port of Maps, reverting the UI changes to iCal from the last update, multiple displays, safari updates and tabs in Finder. Who in there right mind even pay for that if they tried!

 

How stupid can you possibly be?

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #193 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

How stupid can you possibly be?

Your seriously saying that what's listed on Apples what's new page for Mavericks is a "substantial" update.

 

iBooks, Maps and Safari aren't even an OS update, there a bunch of apps. Including Safari in the list is also a bit dodge, are they saying unless you update your OS your not going to get a browser update? I'm not a big Google fan but they push Chrome updates out every 2 - 4 weeks irrespective of OS.

 

iCal in Apples words has "a fresh new look" plus weather forecasts, and a map view. Must have taken them all of a month to build that update. Plus every other major calendar already does this.

 

Multiple Displays, because so many Apple users have multiple displays.

 

Interactive notifications and Finders Tabs are certainly new, but still not what you would call "substantial".

 

iCloud Keychain, I seriously didn't realise it didn't already do this. Maybe it's because other people have, I dunno. I just figured it did it. Still given that I don't feel the need to sign into Chrome to get it to do it, I wouldn't call it substantial either.

 

Advanced technologies that mean my Mac will use less power. Didn't think it used that much power anyway! One of the reasons I've bought MacBooks/iBooks over the past 12 years was because the battery life has always been amazing.

 

Tags, does sound cool and probably the only thing on the list I would give credit to. But to call it a "substantial update" and Win 8 a minor update is crazy. Apple OSX updates are never that substantial but there a lot more regular. I would say Win 7 - 8 is more comparable with the last 4 OSX updates combined. A lot of the feature updates from those version all actually came in, in Win 8.

post #194 of 201
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post
Apple OSX updates are never that substantial but there a lot more regular. I would say Win 7 - 8 is more comparable with the last 4 OSX updates combined. A lot of the feature updates from those version all actually came in, in Win 8.

 

Thank you for agreeing to my original point.

 

All capable Macs purchased from 2009 still running Snow Leopard get the latest Mavericks for free.

Four years' worth of updates to OS X.

 

Most machines purchased from 2009 still running Windows 7 will need a paid upgrade to Windows 8

post #195 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Advanced technologies that mean my Mac will use less power. Didn't think it used that much power anyway! One of the reasons I've bought MacBooks/iBooks over the past 12 years was because the battery life has always been amazing.

I can't believe someone is actually downplaying more battery life.
post #196 of 201

 

Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Hahahaha you call the difference between Windows 7 and 8 a minor update. Literally a whole new style of apps, a store, xbox music, better multi monitor support with the task bar...

.

.

.

But you think the update OSX is getting a substantial. A port of iBooks, a port of Maps, reverting the UI changes to iCal from the last update, multiple displays, safari updates and tabs in Finder.

 

The most amusing thing is how you contradict yourself with your efforts.

 

You cite Windows 8 as a major update because of improved multi-monitor support and updated style of apps,

yet Mavericks is a minor update because it offers improved multi-monitor support and updated apps?

post #197 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post
 


Hahahaha you call the difference between Windows 7 and 8 a minor update. Literally a whole new style of apps, a store, xbox music, better multi monitor support with the taskbar, boot times going from a minute to 6 seconds, amongst a load of other thing like apps.

 

 

You left out the shitty interface that almost no-one understands and everyone hates.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #198 of 201

First of all, there is an upgrade fee associated with upgrading from Windows 7 to 8. It's a big update, and one that has been collectively panned by many as a disaster. Most of my friends and family refuse to update to the latest version and those that do are completely lost on how to use it. Luckily, the iPad is easy to use and does everything a Windows machine can do anyway.

 

I think you are referring to an upgrade from Windows 8 to 8.1, which shouldn't even be an upgrade, but a service pack to fix huge UI issues with the operating system.

 

OS X has always had great multiple monitor support, and yes they've made it better in this version, but that's just a small update.  There are refreshes to all the apps (for the better, unlike Windows with that horrible "tiles" thing).  There's also core changes to the operating system like memory compression and huge performance and energy efficiency gains.  These work on older Macs (up to 7 years ago) and increase their battery life and performance at NO COST.  Even when Apple did charge for OS updates, it was $29 or $19 and they are full updates to the operating system.

 

Lastly, Apple doesn't need to search for some new, whiz bang UI or look to make a great OS.  Many believe that OS X is perfect just the way it is, so these continued refinements and workflow for end-users continues to make new users at the expense of Microsoft. People are realizing that you really do get what you pay for when you buy a Mac... you get a company that cares about the quality of the hardware and software that they deliver and they support it for years to come.  You don't get that in the Windows world. Period.

 

So please go back to Redmond and stop posting here.

post #199 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post
 

 Luckily, the iPad is easy to use and does everything a Windows machine can do anyway.

 

 

I would like to see you play tomb raider or final fantasy 7 or many of the other hardcore games on your iPad.

iPad does have some games but in no way beats windows at it.

post #200 of 201

Sorry, I work for a living. I don't have time to play pointless games with obscenely disproportionate boobs.

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